Team is in Emporia to work on refugee integration
Tuesday, August 21, 2007
Photo by Katie Freeman
Myrna Ann Adkins, left, and Burna Dunn both of the Spring Institute for Intercultural Learning speak at a press conference at the Chamber of Commerce Monday evening.
When Lewis Kimsey, Kansas state coordinator for refugee services, goes to national meetings, he’s often asked to talk about Emporia and its strategies for integrating refugees from Somalia into the community.
“I can tell you that it’s moving very, very well in Emporia,” Kimsey said Monday afternoon while at a meeting at the Emporia Area Chamber of Commerce. “(Emporia) is being looked at nationwide as going very well.”
Kimsey, who works with the Kansas Department of Social and Rehabilitation Services, spoke in an interview on Monday along with two representatives from Denver-based Spring Institute for Intercultural Learning — Myrna Ann Adkins, president and CEO of Spring Institute, and Burna Dunn, project director.
The three arrived in Emporia Monday afternoon for a weeklong stay to speak to various community groups about refugees and bringing the community together as a whole. This is the Spring Institute’s second visit to Emporia. Representatives were last here in December.
During the Spring Institute’s first visit to Emporia, the group spent time educating the community by answering questions and addressing rumors. Some of the questions included why groups were seen congregating and why are women covered.
“It was very easy to talk about Islam or talk about customs,” Dunn said.
Adkins said since their last visit to Emporia, lots of progress has been made.
“I know there has been a lot of progress made in terms of community response,” she said. “Every community has its own flavor. We’re pretty impressed by what we’ve been hearing from both sides.”
Adkins said Emporia’s health center has stepped up to the plate from the get-go.
“We are impressed at how public health is handling health issues,” she said. “Your health department is really on top of that.”
Dunn and Adkins said they have heard of the meetings that the community of Emporia holds with community members and refugees.
“We really appreciate the alliance that came into being,” Adkins said. “That’s the kinds of things that we promote.”
Dunn said one of the common misconceptions when it comes to refugees is the difference between refugees and immigrants.
“A lot of people have not made the distinction between refugees and immigrants,” she said.
Part of the Spring Institute’s goal while in Emporia and other places they visit is to share what they have learned from other communities.
“We love to be able to say ‘in Emporia they do this...’” she said.
Adkins said one of the goals for Emporia is to find out what the opportunities for Emporia are, especially with employment.
Lewis agreed and said companies like Tyson are having to find ways to survive. He said people who worked at Tyson when it was IBP aren’t coming back and there has to be a way for companies to find good legal workers.
“They need to find workers,” Lewis said. “That’s what Tyson is doing with the Solmalis. They (Somalis) are here legally.”
Another goal the Spring Institute has is bringing the community together as a whole and not putting one group in front of the other.
“We’re all culturally diverse in some ways,” Adkins said. “When you look...we all come from someplace else. We’re not just integrating for the Somalis... it’s the integration of the community. We want to know how to bring the community together for the good of the community.”
Lewis said, no matter what, integration isn’t going to happen overnight.
“This is not ‘bang, bang’ two or three visits and this is fixed,” he said. “This is a long-term process.”
Lewis offered some advice.
“Don’t take rumors at face value,” he said. “We all talk and nine times out of 10 when we talk about something and don’t know about something we’re talking about, we get it wrong.”
Lewis said refugees aren’t simply handed stuff when they come to the United States. They have to go through a rigid screening process before they are allowed into the United States. They are expected to pay income tax just like anybody else, Lewis said.
“If they’re single with no kids, they get eight months worth of assistance from the time they arrive in the United States,” he added.
Lewis said, bottom line, the goals are pretty much the same.
“They want their kids to be safe, grow up and provide for themselves,” he said. “If we can start with that foundation then we ought to be able to find a middle ground.”
Dunn, Kimsey and Adkins will stay in Emporia through Friday. During that time, they will visit city officials, county officials and community members.
Comments
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Posted by tosie (anonymous) on August 21, 2007 at 2:16 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Honestly, nobody wants the Somalis in Emporia except you people coming here to tell us how we should welcome them. I don't know who you're talking to saying it's going so well in Emporia, but they are lying, it's not. You can talk about it all you want but the reality is Emporia is going downhill fast and before you know it all of the respectable and hard working American people in Emporia will be gone and the Somalis will take over. That ought to make Emporia a great place to live.....
Posted by emporialifer (anonymous) on August 21, 2007 at 2:32 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Well said Tosie. I don't know who these people are talking to that think it's going great - maybe the Somalians, but that is not the feel I get from people I talk to everyday who have lived in Emporia many years. It's really sad.
Posted by landinkansas (anonymous) on August 21, 2007 at 6:04 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I think it is awful. I can't believe anyone thinks having these people in Emporia is good or going well? Emporia is a wonderful place. I can't stand the direction I see the city going with these people here. I'd like to see who really thinks it is going well because I have not talked to any of them. Absolutely an awful situation.
Posted by justamom (anonymous) on August 21, 2007 at 6:58 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I agree. It is bad. The town is going downhill. The Somalians are rude, inconsiderate and ungrateful. They drive terrible, and I am afraid now more than ever to be on the streets of Emporia. No one wants them here. Ask most ALL Emporia citizens. They expect US to cater to their needs, and be of service so to speak to them. I think not. Gone are the days of Emporia being a good place to raise their family. No wonder there are no houses in the small surrounding cummunities. People are moving out of here and taking their families with them. To bad no one sees it.
Posted by ChuckNorris (anonymous) on August 22, 2007 at 8:18 a.m. (Suggest removal)
The problem here is that if these people fail they loose they're jobs. its is important to remember that people will do anything for a false since of security. all we need to do is tell them the truth on how we feel about this, and for god sakes please attend the meetings, I know I will be as soon as I get back home.
Posted by 34ku (anonymous) on August 22, 2007 at 8:29 a.m. (Suggest removal)
So we need the Somali's to go away and then when Tyson can't find anyone else to work there, Emporia will be just fine when they close the plant right?
Posted by create (anonymous) on August 22, 2007 at 8:51 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Who are these Denver-based people kidding? Why all the lies about Somali integration "moving very well in Emporia"?I've been to the meetings and I've heard the questions and complaints from Emporians, manyof them shop keepers who have encountered problems. Why aren't they covered in articles? Any shop keeper in Emporia can tell of bad experiences that don't seem to stop. I dearly love this town but it saddens and sickens me to hear from people who are planning to move away because of all this. Surrounding communities are growing quickly as people give up and move away.
Posted by former_emporian (anonymous) on August 22, 2007 at 11:33 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Tyson ( the beef ) wouldn't have a problem having workers on any shift if they paid a decent wage. All Tyson needs to do is raise the wages of their workers,give better benefits and make the place a little safer to work in ( i know its a dream ) and they wouldn't have to go around the world to find workers. That company makes billions of dollars and the way they keep profits up is by keeping the worker down.After tyson uses up the Somalians its off to the next third world country for more cheap labor. Maybe next time they will give their workers T.B. tests.
Posted by Bigearl2 (anonymous) on August 29, 2007 at 10:17 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Emporia is becoming one of the most diverse places to live in Kansas. Either we work together to make this a better place to live or we consume hate and make it a place of
turmoil . The greatest gift God has given us is Love !
Most of the Somalians are hard working and caring people.
Only one that can judge them is God not you or myself.
Being African American and have faced racism here in Emporia on many occasions , I realize that the Majority of the people here are good people . I will not judge an entire race of people from a few bad ones !
Posted by Weltha (anonymous) on August 29, 2007 at 11:08 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Well spoken Bigearl2.
Posted by food4thought (anonymous) on August 29, 2007 at 12:04 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Lets all get in a circle and hold hands and sing. That is crap. To get respect you have to earn respect. To get a drivers license you need to study the book (in English) and take a written test and pass with a good grade. To drive a car you should drive with respect for the other drivers on the road and follow the signs. To go to another country you should be respectfull of there religions and cultures and not expect to be taken care of and given things. I don't see the Somalians being respectfull in any of these areas. I don't believe it is going well here in Emporia and have never personally talked to anyone that thought it was. This is just smoke to let other communities go down this spiral as we are thinking that it can work. It can not work if the people coming into the community have NO respect for those other than themselves.
Posted by open_eyes (anonymous) on August 29, 2007 at 2:27 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Well spoken, Kstrebuchet, only you are directing it towards the wrong group. You're only 180 degrees off of whom your comment should be directed towards.
Yes, this IS America. You may not like it that the people around you don't circumsize all their girls at the age of 8 so that they will never ever be able to receive any physical pleasure from sex, you may not like it that women can show their faces and even their ankles in public, you may not like it that people openly carry bibles, you may not like it that Jews and infidels are allowed to walk the streets, you may not like it that you have to take your place in the checkout line at Walmart behind simple lowly women, you may not like it that people that work in the food industry use toilet paper, but, "the fact is, you live next to them - why not try to make the best of it?"
Posted by eatasheep69 (anonymous) on August 29, 2007 at 3:55 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Kstrebuchet, I like your idea. I have a truck we can use and a pitchfork too!
Bigearl2, letting God judge them would be a great idea, as they don't believe in the same God as we Christians do. So which God is going to judge them?
Can anyone here truthfully say that Emporia has become a better place because of the Sammies arrival here?
Posted by MrCmonkeeDo (anonymous) on August 29, 2007 at 4:54 p.m. (Suggest removal)
MrC wonders what Emporia would be like if you Peeps were allowed to run them out-o-town. He also wonders just how you'd go about getting them to leave OUR fine community. Bet it'd be freaky; an' more than just a little scary.
See Ya...wouldn' wanna be Ya.
Posted by open_eyes (anonymous) on August 29, 2007 at 5:06 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Kstr, I think it was pretty obvious who your comments were directed at. But my reply was not a slam at your comments - I was just trying to point out the fact that it is always the locals here who are being told they need to be more tolerant and loving, while it seems to me that if the Somalians came here with more of that attitude then we wouldn't be having this conversation at all. If they didn't shove their way in line in front of women at local stores we wouldn't be hearing complaints about it. If they were required to show the same proficiency behind the wheel as American drivers we wouldn't be having the accidents and complaints about it. If Tyson was required to pay them the same wage as locals and got no government subsidies to boot, they would have to up their wage and draw more locals (moot point, ask an honest trainer at Tyson if they will even hire locals anymore - they want the cheaper help).
So - if they weren't getting special treatment and were eager to fit into our (predominately non-Muslim) society, this article would not have been written, and we wouldn't be hearing all these complaints.
But, despite all that, we open this page and continually get told that WE are the ones that need to learn tolerance. See my point?
So here's my honest suggestions for "making the best of it".
1) "They" are required to take the same driving test and show the same proficiency as "we" are before getting a license. In a language they understand, but they must recognize the signs.
2) No $50,000 prayer room and special breaks at Tyson unless the infidel Christians get the same special treatment.
3) WalMart and other businesses teach their checkout personell that NO person, regardless of race, religion, sex, etc... will be waited on unless they wait their turn in line like everyone else.
4) "They" are required to use toilet paper instead of their hands in the bathrooms at Tyson just like all of "us".
5) etc... etc.... etc.....
Sound like too much to ask???? Or am I just being "intolerant and bigoted" again....????
Posted by bdprotheroe (anonymous) on August 29, 2007 at 5:23 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Out of curiosity, what do you think should be done? This inquiry has not any other motive than to learn; what should be done with the newest members of the Emporia community? I'm reading a lot of bickering, but I'm not seeing any action. Actions speak louder than words.
Brian Protheroe
San Francisco, CA
Posted by open_eyes (anonymous) on August 29, 2007 at 5:26 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Just listed some.
Posted by bdprotheroe (anonymous) on August 29, 2007 at 5:32 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Anyone else care to comment?
It just appears to me that those who are upset will not be satisfied until "they" are gone. So, by what means will you make that happen? By force?
Posted by imgone (anonymous) on August 29, 2007 at 8:41 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Kstrebuchet.......If you want to live in Emporia and put up with all the crap that s going on thats just fine but dont try to bring others down with you. I got sick of the path Emporia was taking and sold out and moved away. The City Fathers do not believe the census decline is correct. People ARE sick of the path Emporia is taking and are leaving. I'm not alone.
Posted by open_eyes (anonymous) on August 29, 2007 at 8:41 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Kstr, I agree with your latest post. Except I should have clarified point # 4 about wiping their butts a little better. I don't care what their personal habits are on their own, but if they are going to work in a food place or anywhere where cleanliness and sanitation is a must, then I would expect them to conform to guidelines for cleanliness. Awhile back on an earlier thread, this was mentioned, and someone replied that their hands never touch the meat. I would disagree with that point, I would say that their hands aren't SUPPOSED to come into direct contact with meat. Also, try wiping your butt with your hand after doing your business and then see how hard it is to clean it. You can scrub for quite awhile and that smell is still there under your fingernails (tried it once - please no smart comments about that little diversity experiment :). Also, wiping hands on walls or "flicking" it on walls, peoples frocks DO brush against things and come in contact with walls, and frocks DO come into contact with meat, etc.... I've worked there, I know. Maybe a Rastafarian doesn't believe in cutting his hair, that's fine, but if he's flipping burgers behind the grill at McDonalds, he's got to wear a hairnet just like everyone else. So why can't they be taught that at least while at work they are to conform to OUR standards of hygiene? People come here (all of us) and work - Asian, African, European, etc - we meet them daily in all walks of life. There are and sadly always will be racists among us, but for those that come here and try their best to fit into American society and obey our laws and customs, they are generally met and received well. Problem is, not only are many of "this" group seemingly unwilling to adopt OUR ways, they are given a free pass by many of our institutions. Tolerance and equality is a 2-way street, not a 1-way.
Posted by open_eyes (anonymous) on August 29, 2007 at 11:41 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Well, actually that was it, the sock had a hole in it I had forgot about, LOL :)
I was referring to workers at Tyson not touching the meat with their hands, but you are correct, many places people can and do. I don't buy anything with the Tyson label on it, either, I can't help it if some burger chain is using their meat that I don't know about, but it's more of a symbolic stand for me that anything that has Tyson brand on it I won't touch. I've told quite a few people and many of them won't either now. Spread the word!!!
Posted by Weltha (anonymous) on August 30, 2007 at 2:11 p.m. (Suggest removal)
You probably missed this in the rush of news, but there was actually
a report that someone in Pakistan had published in a newspaper, an
offer of a reward to anyone who killed an American, any American.
So an Australian dentist wrote an editorial the following day to let
everyone know what an American is . So they would know when they
found one. (Good one, mate!!!!)
"An American is English or French or Italian, Irish, German,
Spanish, Polish, Russian or Greek. An American may also be Canadian,
Mexican, African, Indian, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Australian,
Iranian, Asian or Arab or Pakistani or Afghan.
An American may also be a Comanche, Cherokee, Osage, Blackfoot,
Navaho, Apache, Seminole or one of the many other tribes known as
native Americans.
An American is Christian or he could be Jewish or Buddhist or
Muslim. In fact, there are more Muslims in America than in
Afghanistan The only difference is that in America they are free to
worship as each of them chooses.
An American is also free to believe in no religion. For that he will
answer only to God, not to the government, or to armed thugs
claiming to speak for the government and for God.?
An American lives in the most prosperous land in the history of the
world.
The root of that prosperity can be found in the Declaration
ofIndependence , which recognizes the God given right of each person
to the pursuit of happiness.
An American is generous. Americans have helped out just about every
other nation in the world in their time of need, never asking a
thing in return.
When Afghanistan was over-run by the Soviet army 20 years ago,
Americans came with arms and supplies to enable the people to win
back their country!
As of the morning of September 11, Americans had given more than any
other nation to the poor in Afghanistan Americans welcome the best
of everything...the best products, the best books, the best music,
the best food, the best services. But they also welcome the least.
The national symbol of America , The Statue of Liberty , welcomes
your tired and your poor, the wretched refuse of your teeming
shores, the homeless, tempest tossed. These in fact are the people
who built America.
Some of them were working in the Twin Towers the morning of
September 11, 2001 earning a better life for their families. It's
been told that the World Trade Center victims were from at least 30
different countries, cultures, and first languages, including those
that aided and abetted the terrorists.
So you can try to kill an American if you must. Hitler did. So did
Gen eral Tojo, and Stalin, and Mao Tse-Tung, and other blood-
thirsty tyrants in the world. But, in doing so you would just be
killing yourself . Because Americans are not a particular people
from a particular place. They are the embodiment of the human spirit
of freedom. Everyone who holds to that spirit, everywhere, is an
American.
Posted by Weltha (anonymous) on August 30, 2007 at 2:12 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Not sure where and how this fits in this topic. I just felt that it did some how. Proud to be an American and happy to have not been born in, and trying to get out of a 3rd world country.
Posted by blulitespecial (anonymous) on August 30, 2007 at 2:23 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I enjoyed reading it.
Posted by Pollyanna (anonymous) on August 30, 2007 at 2:29 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Weltha:
Thank you so much for posting that. In my humble opinion, it fit into this topic beautifully. When I read some of the posts and how some people refer to Somalians as dirty, filthy animals I am reminded how Hitler did the same to millions. By placing numbers on their bodies and by referring to people as animals. This de-humanizing of a group of people makes violence against them more acceptable and normal. If they are not really human, then we can hurt and destroy an entire group of people. Whether we are American, Russian, Native American, white, black, or green, please let us not forget we are all a part of one very important race.
Posted by open_eyes (anonymous) on August 30, 2007 at 3:42 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Yes, I have read that before, and it makes an excellent point. However, an American can also be a thief, a murderer, a rapist, and a bigot. Let's not just turn and look the other way from those just to be politically correct. Europe looked the other way during Hitler's rise and it cost them dearly. Our own intelligence didn't think some signs leading up to 9/11 were dire enough and look what happened.
Again, for those coming here for a better life, that want to adopt our ways and fit in, welcome. For those coming here that think we owe them and don't want to adopt our ways, I'm not willing to just sit back and be politically correct.
Just use some common sense.
Posted by create (anonymous) on August 30, 2007 at 6:03 p.m. (Suggest removal)
It's time for us to learn the real deal about Muslim toilet etiquette. It's too much to detail here, but the reading is quite interesting. Why not look it up. It explains why a bidet is necessary.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_toi...
Posted by blulitespecial (anonymous) on August 30, 2007 at 9:47 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I still think the Fed pretty much dumped these people-from the stone age,with little more than a tarp and a water jug- to the working class United States Midwest.Add on tax breaks for Tyson.
I would post here whatever you think about the situation.You can bet it's read by more than you think.Haven't heard a real positive comment from anyone I know about the Somalian influx.From Tyson employees to retired snowbirds.The older folks(from the midwest,upper midwest,and ranging to the northeast) are telling stories about the illegals in Texas.Heard some Muslim sories,too.Then when they come back through Emporia,it's culture shock again.Still no positive comments.Gosh,I wonder why not? People that come here need to adapt to English and American ways and laws,not the other way around.Hold the door for ladies.At least use modern sanitary practices.We have soap and water.Buy insurance.I don't trust certain family members with my car.Why should I trust someone that has possibly no insurance and 2 hours behind the wheel? Could be an illegal,could be a "refugee"! I've been profiled and checked out at airports for nearly 35 years.Had my tag ran and pulled over for "a burned out light" all over the US.I thanked them all.Quit whining about profiling! They're doing their job.An added attraction-starting Saturday(Labor Day weekend) MSN news says the semi's from Mexico will be able to travel the US.Look for one your area soon!This is a bit sideways,but it may be time to write your insurance company,and get written confirmation of coverage of noninsured and under insured foreign drivers.Not a call to the agent-All you'll hear is"Of course,It's in the policy".In writing from the company. Just to let them know you need an answer about coverage now,not a"We don't cover that"when you're in the hospital.
Posted by gbdr97 (anonymous) on August 30, 2007 at 10:10 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I was wondering if anyone has or is thinking of compiling the stats of crime rate rise, and motor vehicle tickets/accidents since they have come to Emporia? Or would the NAACP/ACLU protest that study into not happening
Posted by blulitespecial (anonymous) on August 30, 2007 at 10:55 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I know the TV networks are reporting on the crime rise in New Orleans.Seems the gangs and thugs are targeting Hispanic construction workers in case they're illegal.Large amounts of cash,because they don't have bank accounts.On the other side,a lot of them are scr**** out of their pay when the contractor says he's gonna call the police-after the work is done.
Posted by open_eyes (anonymous) on August 31, 2007 at 9:03 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Yes, its the land of the free, people can do what they want, but I'm not extending that to the extreme. If I was a doctor, and a Somalian brought their 8 year old daughter in to have her clitoris cut out, I would refuse to do it, I don't give a rats a** what their religion thinks about it. Read the other day that a Pakistani family in America "honor killed" their daughter because she refused to be wed to some old goat back in Pakistan. Common sense tells me that trying to be overly accepting just to be politically correct has gotten way out of control in this country. No, just because this is American does not mean that you can live however you want. If that's the case, what the heck are we paying all those high-priced politicians for? Not to mention the hard-working and well-deserved police.
And, yes, lets not forget once again that out of the thousands of terrorist acts committed daily around the world, over a decade ago one of them was by a white American. Lets also not forget that out of the millions of innocent people who were killed last year by other humans and animals alike, one famous one was speared thru the heart by a stingray therefore stingrays are just as dangerous a terrorist threat as the insurgents in Iraq.
I am sure there are some who want to just come here and fit in and be an American, but I can also tell you from some personal experience what is happening around the globe nearly everywhere as the segment of Muslim population that does not care to fit in continues to grow. And I'm not going to close my eyes, cover my ears, and hum to myself while it happens.
Posted by open_eyes (anonymous) on August 31, 2007 at 11:06 a.m. (Suggest removal)
If you take the land of the free literally, and to the utmost, then America has absolutely no laws whatsoever, and we have total anarchy. But obviously we don't, so therefore this is not totally the land of the free where people can do whatever they want, right?
I think most people can read and understand what I mean, without having to split hairs and talk in circles. We aren't somewhere like Saudi Arabia where it is illegal to carry a bible and the vice police run around checking to see if a woman is seen in public without a male family member escort. Just use some common sense. If you really think that people in America can live exactly as they please, then there is no law against murder, rape, stealing, etc, because there are alot of people who choose to do those things. Let's all just start looting in the streets, heck its the land of the free.
Maybe they would go to the next doctor but at least I will get up and look at myself in the mirror the next morning and know that I did not perform the procedure. I guess if someone asks me to help them rob the bank I should just go ahead and do it after all they would just find someone else to help them do it, I suppose.
I know I'm starting to sound sarcastic so I will stop here before I get any more carried away.
I think most everyone else can figure out easily enough what was meant by my earlier post. Just use some common sense.
As or what I do, you already suggested it - I can try to change minds, I can lobby for law changes, I can make my voice known as a voter, and in the meantime I can make the best of it without burying my head in the sand and hoping it gets better.
Posted by open_eyes (anonymous) on August 31, 2007 at 11:11 a.m. (Suggest removal)
As for Phelps, we can educate people as to what he and his followers are doing, we can spread the word, we can mount public pressure against his methods, we can work to pass laws the forbid him from protesting within x yards of a soldier funeral, etc.... and still live together within the law (oops, forgot we live in the land of the free so there are no laws) or we can just throw our hands up and do absolutely nothing and just say they're here so we have to roll over and get along regardless. If you choose to do the latter, that is your right. Just as I have the right to do the former. That is freedom. However, by using my own common sense, I don't believe that freedom extends to marching on Phelp's church with a posse vigilante-style and hanging him, even though technically this is the land of the "free".
Posted by open_eyes (anonymous) on August 31, 2007 at 11:16 a.m. (Suggest removal)
No, I don't consider a stingray a terrorist either, but we are talking about the majority of the bell curve (if you understand statistics), not rare exceptions out on the fringe of which there will always be a few. As I said once before in a post, hearing about Ok City is like getting a hailstorm that destroys 80% of your roof, and then seeing a single walnut drop out of a tree and knock a shingle loose, and then telling the insurance adjuster your roof was damaged due to walnuts. Technically you are correct, a walnut did damage your roof, and if you want to focus on that and say walnuts are just as destructive as hail, then fine....
Posted by KUfan (anonymous) on August 31, 2007 at 12:11 p.m. (Suggest removal)
This is why many people consider the midwest and Kansas to be closed minded. So, do you people just want caucasian people in Emporia?
Posted by open_eyes (anonymous) on August 31, 2007 at 12:18 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Please read back thru my posts and explain exactly where you get that idea. I am talking about Muslims that do not care to integrate. And a Muslim does not have to be specifically black or Arab. Look at the Walker kid that fought with the Taliban. Nowhere have I made any reference to anyone or anything based solely on their race. If you are literate and can understand what you read, you will notice that I blasted Phelps and his followers, which are all Caucasian from what I have seen of them on the news.
This is why many people in the midwest and Kansas that see statements like yours just have to sigh and shake their head at the ignorance people display towards this part of the country...
Posted by netloafer (anonymous) on August 31, 2007 at 12:26 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I saw something interesting a while ago. I was driving past downtown going west on 6th Avenue. At 6th and Commercial the light turned red and I stopped. The "walk" light was on for those crossing and going south on Commercial. A Somali man and woman attempted to cross, but three cars turning west on 6th to Commercial Street ignored them. The couple started to walk across and the first driver made an obscene gesture at them and turned. They stepped back and tried again, but the other two cars turned in the same manner as the first car. They didn't make any obscene gestures. I've crossed that intersection many times and have never had a problem.
It was really uncalled for. Actually, the drivers who turned violated the right of way the Somalis had been given when the "walk" light came on.
Maybe it was just coincidence, but that doesn't explain the obscene gesture or the deliberate violation of traffic rules on the part of the drivers.. It really looked very deliberate to me.
Having seen many of the posts in this forum about Somalis it makes me wonder. Perhaps there is more racism or anti-immigrant sentiment in this town than I care to admit.
Posted by open_eyes (anonymous) on August 31, 2007 at 12:50 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Your absolutely right, netloafer. There was no call for the traffic to treat the Somalians that way as they were trying to cross the street. But I've also seen rude people cut me off as I tried to cross a street before (I'm caucasian). There are rude people everywhere, however I'm not going to subscribe to the walnut on the roof theory - I'm sure those drivers treated them that way purely because they were Somalians.
And I don't really care to hear if the drivers were white, black, Mexican, or Vietnamese. Shame on them whatever their race.
They just showed on the news a video that has surfaced on the Internet about how to form your own Al-Queda cell. Its not limited to blacks, whites, arabs, asians, or any race. However, I don't think they were specifically geared towards recruiting Christians, Jews, Hindus, or Buddhists. I left out a particular religion it WAS geared towards, however - I leave that up to the readers to figure out. Are ALL people of this mystery religion bad? Of course not. Never said they were. I even know some that are very nice, wonderful people. But in today's politically overly correct world, I can't point out the obvious without being branded close-minded. Oh well.
Posted by gbdr97 (anonymous) on August 31, 2007 at 2:51 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Why are all there people talking about what fine up standing religious Muslims the Somalis are, and in reality we are talking about are people that came to the "rescue" of one of our Blackhawks, are total thieves, drunks, and Thugs, "Oh well there are a few bad apples" looks to me about 600 bad apples are here. I say lets all Boycott the Somalis, dont speak to them, dont sell them anything, and write congress let them know that Emporia has been turned into a 3rd world town, a refugee camp for people that no one else wants either. Does anyone but me think that they have all been in another state before here and and now here because the people elsewhere didnt put up with them and booted them like we need to do. These Somalis are apparently just going to be allowed to roam and pillage our town at will. What is going to happen when One of these Sweet Innocent Muslim Somalis ends up raping some poor college kid, maybe male or female as the Koran dosent care what sex an infidel is. What is going to happen to the numbers of students at Dear ESU. If ESU declines then the rest of Emporia will be tossed upon the Trash Heap of Humanity. Thank you Tyson and the UN. For Killing off our once proud City, and reducing us to just the memories of what once was Emporia
Peace Out Brother
Posted by open_eyes (anonymous) on August 31, 2007 at 4:26 p.m. (Suggest removal)
KUFan - if the entire Somalian community was caucasian, and everything else was the same, (special driving privileges not given to regular Americans, government subsidized to displace local workers, special prayer room/treatment at work not given to other religious/ethnic group, numerous incidents of rude behavior in stores, not wanting to fit into our laws and culture, unsanitary habits working in a food production place, etc...) then you think there would be no problem, right?
Posted by open_eyes (anonymous) on August 31, 2007 at 4:45 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Freedom in this country means that even a bunch of blooming idiots like the Klu Klux Klan have the legal right to spout their twisted philosophy and hold peaceful rallies and hold religious worship they way they choose - ONLY as long as it does not infringe on the rights of others. Freedom in this country does NOT mean they have the right to carry out acts of violence and so on. Freedom in this country also guarantees me the right to speak out and protest against them. Does that make me a racist if I protest AGAINST the KKK? After all, this is a free country, diversity, I'd like to teach the world to sing and all that. So when I see a group given driving privileges that make the roads less safe for the life of myself and my children, when I see religious concessions made to a group that would make the ACLU scream bloody murder if it was given to Christians, when I see women rudely shoved aside in stores, when I see the government subsidizing a group of workers when local help does not get the same treatment, d**n right I'm going to raise my voice in protest. If you also want to label me a racist for saying the KKK should be banned, then fine. Label me close-minded on that one too, after all, it's a free country, Just a religious difference, right?
There's a little difference between religious differences, and preaching hate and intolerance. Many aspects of Islam are EXTREMELY intolerant, but somehow in this twisted world being intolerant of hatred and intolerance makes you close-minded and racist. Shaking my head sadly in the midwest... :(
Posted by create (anonymous) on August 31, 2007 at 5:14 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Open_eyes, I'm behind you, and especially like your walnut analogy.
gbdr97 your post is scary, scary, scary. Yours is the Henny Penny solution. The sky is not falling. Calm down! What you are suggesting is irresponsible. Un-American too. Mob rule never works. I almost think your post is tongue in cheek. Maybe not. Let's play a game with your words and pretend they are being stated by the Native Americans at Plymouth and Jamestown when the Pilgrims arrived. Hmmmmm....
No, KUfan, I don't want just caucasians living here. That's not the issue. I welcome others here, but I don't want them to expect me to turn my own culture aside to accomodate theirs. I do expect new people to assimilate. When in Rome, do as the Romans do.
When my grandfather arrived in the United States from Portugal in 1882, he was thrilled to escape the famine that was going on in Portugal. He worked his butt off and saved every penny to buy one cow which he later turned into a dairy. Here's the rub. All this didn't happen overnight, but he learned English by listening and copying others who spoke it. He never once expected others to learn Portuguese, nor did he expect anyone to embrace any of his customs. He became an American, just one part of the many who make up this patchwork quilt of diversity we call home. I wish I spoke Portuguese, but alas, he did not teach his children. He told them to speak English. He assimilated.
Posted by gbdr97 (anonymous) on August 31, 2007 at 8:53 p.m. (Suggest removal)
As for the Native Americans, they werent just the Peace loving peoples that we grew up with on Thanksgiving. They to saw the white man as the end of their time as noted in Algonquin traditions. Shall we think about the numbers of settlers that were killed by them at Jamestown and the surrounding villages. and the settlement of Roanoke. So what I am saying isnt a game about the Indians. Am sure you think that the taking of Scalps was introduced by the French, but alas this too goes back before colonization in the archeologic excavations of Moundville. I am just looking ahead because if you get so many Thugs in one place something bad will eventually happen. Shall we look at the numbers of people killed by Illegal aliens in shootings and DUI murders. If you are niave enough to think it wont happen here you are living in a bubble. Un-American I think not. I am the least un-american person around. It is 100% American to Change the Enviroment around us, Was Guilani Un-American when he cleaned the Drug Dealers from NYC and removed the Thugs from Times Square?? It is totally american to take the bad and remove it from around our homes. And I dont think I advocated Mob rule anywhere, if anything its a Peaceful way to remove them from our community. After all in Montgomery Al in the 60s didnt they do the same thing by boycotting the buses and resturants that wouldnt let blacks be an equal part. And as I eluded to, these people are used to being moved even their own people dont want them there. We arent recieving their Drs. and Lawyers, they are sending us their criminals and thieves. I dont know maybe the Cubans that were sent to us in the 70s
may ring a bell with you. Remember how well that went, and where are they now? Back to areas that wanted them, so most of them are currently residing in Fl. per Census Data. So unless you wish for them to decide that Emporia is for them and just have them all come here to stay we need to say No Thank you. I sure hope that you do open your eyes to reality, and really think before you call someone un-American, and know what the history of America is, and place a little thought behind your comments.
Posted by KUfan (anonymous) on August 31, 2007 at 10:03 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I am Somalian and I feel like you say hurt full things. You have lived your entire life in this little town eating big meals, sleeping in a bed being cover by shelter. You have no idea what Somalians have been through. Our country has been at war for year. It is run by war lords. Survival to us is more important then what we eat for dinner. We are more worried about making it to dinner alive. In Nebraska we had problems with alot of people like you. Your ideas are not new. Maybe before your people sell us a car they should check to see if have license. If we did not work the jobs at Tyson then would you. I know the answer. This is not just a new country but a new world to many of our people. I have tried to take on american ways. I root for KU. I have take to american football and sheer for the chiefs. I speak english. I just got off of my shift and have returned to see your complaining. Grow up. life doesn't always happen your way.
Posted by gbdr97 (anonymous) on August 31, 2007 at 10:52 p.m. (Suggest removal)
What I love about the above article is how the Team is talking about how our Local Health Dept has stepped up. Who is footing that Bill, and why are they trying to make Emporia the Showcase for other areas of integration. This shows that we are being primed for more and more of them. The Spring group is using Emporia as its Lab rat in this experiment. I love how Emporians were asked if we wanted to be this. I remember a time ago when we were asked about being a model and we said NO. I am refering to when the state was wanting to use the former Way Campus as a prison and it was a resounding NO. This time we werent asked, we have now become the Model on how to have a community thrust into turmoil, absorb health expenses, "culture" and whatever else they want us to adapt to. Lets tell this spring group what we want and that is we dont want to have these people forced upon us because they need workers for Tyson. Who is the Spring group funded by? I would suspect that they have a good bit of funding by the Meat Packing Industry and a far left Political agenda. Are they wanting Emporia to Adopt these Refugees? I also ejnoyed how they said that they werent just given things right away they had to wait and go thru a RIGID SCREENING PROCESS I wonder who was footing the bill during those Months and what were they then given after this Rigid Process. And just who in America is looking at Emporia like its a fishbowl for Somali intergration. I dont read about this anywhere on the internet, or see it on the news, or even in the Papers which I still READ. The who in this equation is Left wing Politicals, and Industry. The rest of AMERICA dosent know or care. People I know say "man that sucks for Emporia, Glad its not in my town." Next time this Group is in town maybe some direct questions should be asked and see how they react to them. If they dodge or deflect the questions, or turn around and ask a question to your question without an answer, you can be pretty sure they are blowing smoke. I would like to know who is truely looking at Emporia and whom they are saying to "in Emporia they are doing this.." Lets shine some light into the corners and see where the Roaches run. We cannot VOTE this out, its not Politics in Emporia that are shaping this issue. We have to have a Ground Swell and Outcry that this isnt RIGHT and you cant Tread on Us. We are People not RATS. We should not stand for this, if we want AMERICA to stand up and take notice Lets Have a March, of course the media would portray us as Rednecks that are Closed Minded,but maybe if an Investigative Report were done first and the facts brought to light, and then a March it would show how we are being Railroaded. Maybe the Gazette should spearhead such an investigation into the Spring Group, and Meat Packing Industry It could win a Puilitzer
Posted by gbdr97 (anonymous) on August 31, 2007 at 10:53 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Or could even have their own TV show on A&E. Just thinking outside of the box on this one. But What does it Take to have this issue come to a head??? And not tarnish our good name. The answer is TRUTH, FACTS then ACTION.
Posted by KUfan (anonymous) on September 1, 2007 at 2:53 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I do not know where you get your information, but I do not wipe with my hand.
Posted by MrCmonkeeDo (anonymous) on September 1, 2007 at 5:06 a.m. (Suggest removal)
MrC can't take it any more.
To KUfan, good for you! If you speak english as well as you write then you are doing fantastic. MrC is in awe of the Somalian community that seemed to spring up over night on his side of town. Please don't think these Peeps speak for all of Emporia.
MrandMrsC run a service business in this town that benefits tremendously from the Somolian community. We are not alone. The Somalis that come into our "store" are as courteous as they are curious. At first some of the men were a little demanding, but MrsC straightened them out right away...'cause grandma don't play. It was their way; but now they smile and wait their turn just like polite Americans are expected to do.
Most of them smell wonderful. Infact MrC hasn't smelled a stinker in the bunch; even during these last "dog days" of summer, which is something i'm sure They couldn't say about MrCmonkeeDo. All in all they seem pretty clean. The point being that it really seems kind of silly to require them to defend or explain their bathroom habits, if not downright rude. They're allowed to use toilet paper, i'm sure they Do. And to those of you who do not wash your butt after pooping, ick! Please realize that most of us that Do "wash-up" (no pun intended) Do so because we don't really feel clean until we have. Hand washing after the "dirty deed" is just part of the ritual. Get it? It's really a clean thing more than an i wanna rub my E. coli on your meat thing...know what i mean?
Still, MrC wonders what Emporia would be like if you Peeps were allowed to run the somalis out-o-town. Who'd be the next group to go and the next and the next and finally who'd be left.
See Ya...wouldn' wanna be Ya.
Posted by MrCmonkeeDo (anonymous) on September 1, 2007 at 5:31 a.m. (Suggest removal)
One more thing...something i've noticed about most Somalis--an' you can call MrC a racist if you want--If you smile at them they will almost always smile back.
But hey...don' just take My word for it...
Posted by been_there (anonymous) on September 1, 2007 at 12:11 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I guess as 'an honest trainer at Tyson' I would just like to make a few comments.
1. I don't follow the Somali's to the bathroom so I don't know what they are doing in the stalls but I do know that everyone I've seen after using the restroom washes their hands with soap and water, can't say that for 'other people' I see leaving the bathroom. This is not limited to Tyson, I see it at WalMart every time I use their bathrooms.
2. Wiping of hands on frocks or 'flicking on walls' - the only time I remember this taking place was about 15 years ago when a few certain groups of people came from Mexico and had never know correct bathroom etiquette. Heck, we had to deal with the Asian population standing on the seats to use the restroom and then not wiping them off. Oh yeah, before all those cultures were there we had 'Americans' that didn't know how to flush, and some still don't! GASP!
3. All Somali's expect us to adapt to 'their ways'. I can guarantee you that they have tried to learn English faster than any other culture that has come into that plant. Probably 80% of them are attending some kind of school and some are even at ESU. And I've never had one speak to me about changing anything that I am doing to become like them. The only time they offer information into their culture is when I ask.
4. All Somali's are rude. I do not agree with this comment at all. This is not to say that I have not seen them be rude, I have. However, in each case that I have witnessed, once they were corrected, they have been courteous ever since. How did our children learn manners? We taught them! It is the same with Somali's. Have some patience and teach them what we expect and in most cases, they will try to conform.
5. A burden on Health Care - Well, since ALL Somali's work at Tyson you can be sure that they ALL have health, dental and vision insurance since that is a requirement for ALL people that work at Tyson.
6. Somali's can't drive. I would agree with that, but THEY agree with you too. However, twice in the last week I was almost involved in accidents. Once it was a teenaged girl talking on her phone and not paying attention. The other time it was an elderly lady that couldn't see over her steering wheel. Maybe WOMEN shouldn't be allowed to get drivers licenses!
No life in Emporia is not perfect but is it perfect anywhere? Is that what we want, for everyone to become the Stepford wives? I'm sure a few people will comment on my comments but this is what this forum is about. We are all free to comment and have an opinion, and that is all I have done. I do feel that if we put as much energy into figuring out how to make this situation work for everyone as some are putting into complaining and scheming on how to get 'these people' out of town, we might have a chance to make things better. OR.......we could help solve the city budget problems!
Posted by blulitespecial (anonymous) on September 1, 2007 at 3 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Well said
Posted by create (anonymous) on September 1, 2007 at 3:33 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Don't put words in my mouth, gbdr97. I never said the French were responsible for introducing scalping. Your writing wanders all over the place, and I do find that you are jumping to many conclusions. You can't just lump everyone together by calling all these people "bad apples" and suggesting that everyone "Boycott the Somalis." That is irresponsible in my book, and just a little scary. We've experienced witch hunts before in this country.
As for your comment about Giuliani and the drug dealers and thugs, those arrested were indeed criminals. And not all the Cubans who came here in the 70's were criminals. In case you'd like to check, one very successful heating and air conditioning company in this town was begun by a Cuban refugee. You are inciting a riot. This is not fair to the people who did come here to give living here an honest effort.
I like what "been_there," the Tyson trainer has to say. He makes sense and he's not jumping to conclusions; he is stating facts. KU Fan, you write clearly for someone who is not a native speaker of English. Keep communicating and maybe we can shed some light on the many questions and accusations we have posed in this forum.
Posted by open_eyes (anonymous) on September 1, 2007 at 4:37 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I hear quite a few "facts" from people on the inside that I trust completely that would dispute some of the "facts" presented here. Or should we all go with the "facts" as presented by the Denver study group? I guess anyone can label anything a "fact" and until you can disprove it..... and that's how rumors get started..... and refuted.........
Anyway, I have a serious question for KUFan that I would like to ask and I am not being sarcastic - just curious. I've done research that shows that female circumcision is VERY common in Somalia - actually 98% of all girls ages 8-10 undergo this procedure. Guess its really none of my business, but if you care to answer it, does the Emporia community follow that practice?
Now, before all the politically correct posters jump down my throat over this question, I'll come right out and state exactly where I stand on the issue: If a woman is 25 and chooses to allow this to happen to her, that's her right. But I think anyone that forces it on an 8 to 10 year old girl should be castrated themselves on the spot, and with no anesthetic.
Posted by Doug (anonymous) on September 3, 2007 at 10:49 a.m. (Suggest removal)
The reason the people that worked for IBP, quit and won't come back is IBP cut wages significantly in the 80's then they started busing people from Texas up here to work the lower wages, which Tyson still does. If our community is supposed to be a Integration Hub, why were we not better prepared for it. With the increased costs to the Health Dept. and such, why has the Federal Govt. not assisted financially to an already over burdened taxpayer. Why is this integration team not located in Emporia adding to the tax base and providing employment for Emporians that are actually providing the intergration?
Posted by create (anonymous) on September 4, 2007 at 6:57 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Good points, Doug. The Somali community really could use a liaison to help them understand many things about living in this country. Things like driving regulations for one, and understanding health plans for two.
Posted by UserName (anonymous) on September 5, 2007 at 7:44 p.m. (Suggest removal)
open_eyes, it really doesn't matter how "reliable" your source is, if you didn't personally witness something, it's just a rumor. Trusting your source completely doesn't change the fact that it's a rumor.
As for the female circumcision, how do you feel about MALE circumcision? More than 60% of males born in the United States undergo this medically unnecessary procedure.
Unless you are against male circumcision every bit as much as you are against female circumcision, then you have no room to criticize.
Posted by open_eyes (anonymous) on September 5, 2007 at 11:37 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Username, I think you really missed the point on this one. Come back to earth, please.
Male circumcision does NOT render a male incapable of an orgasm. It is practiced mostly for either religious or sanitary purposes, and does not in any way hinder male performance or feeling during sex.
Female circumcision, as practiced in Somalia, involves total removal of the clitoris and renders the female incapable of sensual feeling during intercourse to reach orgasm.
Do you REALLY think the 2 are equivalent? On what planet do you live??????
Posted by open_eyes (anonymous) on September 5, 2007 at 11:44 p.m. (Suggest removal)
From http://dhushara.tripod.com/book/orsin/ri...
Today, an estimated one hundred million women have undergone the sexual mutilation. It is performed in many African countries, including Sudan, Somalia, Ethiopia, Kenya, and Chad. It is also a tradition among Muslims in Malaysia and Indonesia, and in a number of countries in the Middle East, including Egypt, the UAE, and parts of rural Saudi Arabia. Coptic Christians in Egypt and animist tribes in Africa as well as Muslims, undergo the ritual. More than 90 percent of Sudanese women undergo the most severe form of circumcision, known as "pharaonic," or infibulation, at the age of seven or eight, which removes all of the clitoris, the labia minora, and the labia majora. The sides are then sutured together, often with thorns, and only a small matchstick-diameter opening is left for urine and menstrual flow. The girl's legs are tied together and liquids are heavily rationed until the incision is healed. During this primitive yet major surgery, it is not uncommon for girls, who are held down by female relatives, to die from shock or hemorrhage of the vagina, urethra, bladder, and rectal area may also be damaged, and massive keloid scarring can obstruct walking for life. After marriage, women who have been infibulated must be forcibly penetrated.
"This may take up to forty days, and when men are impatient, a knife is used," recounted Sudanese women at a conference that I attended several years ago in Cairo on the "Development of Women in the Islamic World." They also told of special honeymoon centers built outside communities so that the "screams of the brides will not be heard."
Somali's in particular:
http://www.ecademy.com/node.php?id=45004...
Also, try reading:
http://www.rjgeib.com/thoughts/circumcis...
It has been banned in Egypt:
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article...
Posted by open_eyes (anonymous) on September 5, 2007 at 11:49 p.m. (Suggest removal)
UserName, I don't normally slam people on this, but your post shows ign######ce beyond comprehension.
Read the book "Infidel", by Hirsi Ali, a Somalian woman who was circumcised at age 5.
Do a little homework, and if you still feel the 2 are equivalent, then, man, do I feel sorry for any woman in your family. And you.
Posted by open_eyes (anonymous) on September 6, 2007 at 12:06 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I posted this before on an earlier thread.
Similarly, the common practice of female genital cutting (FGC) is certain to create controversy here in the U.S. An estimated 98% of Somali girls 8-10 years of age undergo FGC, usually Type III (or infibulation), which consists of the removal of the clitoris, the adjacent labia (majora and minora), followed by the pulling of the scraped sides of the vulva across the vagina. The sides are then secured with thorns or sewn with catgut or thread. A small opening to allow passage of urine and menstrual fluid is left. An infibulated woman must be cut open to allow for intercourse on her wedding night, and the opening may then be closed again afterwards to secure fidelity to her husband."female circumcision," where the clitoris and part of the labia is excised, ostensibly to keep women pure and chaste. Web sites concerned with the issue include http://www.fgm.org/ and http://rainbo.org.
I'd really like to hear from some other readers here (educated ones) and hear if they agree with UserName that it is no different from male circumcision, and that I have no room to criticize.
I'll keep on criticizing this barbaric practice.
I'm also going to continue to criticize rape, murder, stealing, and cheating, I don't give a rat's a## if it is permitted or encouraged in certain religions, I'm not so politically correct as to be a moron. As apparently some people are.
No reply yet from KUfan.
Posted by open_eyes (anonymous) on September 6, 2007 at 12:13 a.m. (Suggest removal)
UserName, I really can't let this one drop. I would very much like to hear back from you your opinion after doing a little research on female circumcision as practiced by Somali's.
If you truly did not know what it was, and just assumed it was something similar to male circumcision, then I apologize ahead of time right now for getting hot under the collar and losing my cool, and my snide remarks. Please tell me that was the case.
I would also like other readers to weigh in with their opinion of this barbaric practice.
Thank you.
Posted by UserName (anonymous) on September 6, 2007 at 6:10 a.m. (Suggest removal)
open_eyes, circumcisions, both male and female are done on infants without their consent. Both procedures DO affect sexual ability, although to different degrees. Neither procedure is medically necessary. The only difference is the matter of degree in which it effects the recipient.
Your statement, "Male circumcision does ... not in any way hinder male performance or feeling during sex" isn't entirely accurate, either. Since you have posted several links for reference, I'll return the courtesy:
http://mensightmagazine.com/Articles/Nor...
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Rea...
http://www.mothersagainstcirc.org/fleiss...
Just to clarify, in your post above you stated, "I'd really like to hear from some other readers here (educated ones) and hear if they agree with UserName that it is no different from male circumcision, and that I have no room to criticize". Please show me where I said female circumcision is no different than male circumcision. Perhaps it is you who should come back to earth or maybe a reading comprehension program would be helpful.
I do agree that some in this forum are showing "Ignorance beyond comprehension". It is most certainly evident in the blind prejudice so abundant here.
I stand by my original post - if you are against female circumcision, but not against male circumcision, then you are a hypocrite and have no room to criticize.
Posted by open_eyes (anonymous) on September 6, 2007 at 8:03 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Fair enough.
And here are some views and studies from the other side, which state there is no hindrance or loss of feeling, and studies that show that there is at least some evidence that it may also provide some protection against diseases, most notably AIDS.
http://www.circinfo.com/benefits/bmc.htm...
http://www.historyofcircumcision.net/ind...
http://archive.salon.com/health/sex/urge...
So male circumcision (as any medical procedure) DOES carry some risks, but also some possible benefits, and their are views and medical opinions on both sides that would argue the remainder.
However, female circumcision is practiced TOTALLY to remove any chance a woman will ever have of enjoying sex and having an orgasm while she is still a very young girl not of age to make the decision herself that she never wants to get any enjoyment from sex or have an orgasm for the remainder of her entire life. I was unable to find ANY evidence that there is ANY possible benefit from this procedure, other than to possibly keep your cattle (women) from straying outside your pen.
How you can compare the 2 is beyond me. Intentionally performing this procedure on a 5-10 year old girl with the SOL:E INTENTION of robbing her of one of life's greatest pleasures for her entire life is just unfathomable. Kindof like comparing piercing ears to a lobotomy (people DO get infections sometimes, things can always go wrong).
I stand by my original criticism 100%. As do the majority of civilized nations, where it is banned and outlawed, along with the women who have undergone the procedure when they were very young and are writing books about what and absolutely abhorrent procedure it is. I truly do feel sorry for any women in your life :( That you would have this kind of attitude towards them is your right however, its a free country. Maybe we should brand all women and install tracking devices on them as well. and maybe once they are past childbearing years herd them off to the slaughterhouse).
Still like to hear from opionions from others, no matter what they may be on this subject, including KUfan.
Posted by open_eyes (anonymous) on September 6, 2007 at 8:08 a.m. (Suggest removal)
"The ONLY difference is the matter of degree in which it effects the recipient."
Wow.
That "matter of degree" is pretty darn significant. I've seen young girls get their ears pierced when they were still babies. It's still a medical procedure on a person's head, just like a frontal lobotomy, done without the babies consent. But I think there is quite a big difference between piercing a babies ear and cutting the whole dang thing off, or drilling inside to remove their eardrum, just for the sole purpose of keeping them from possibly hearing another guy call them up to ask them for a date.
Again, WOW.
Posted by open_eyes (anonymous) on September 6, 2007 at 9:56 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Kstre - a good find. Again, I will post a dissenting view (same link as above)
http://www.circinfo.com/benefits/bmc.htm...
And without being too graphic, the "procedure" has not harmed me in any way I am able to discern, or lessened my enjoyment of sex. Of course, I don't have any way to compare it, but I can't imagine it being any better. However, I still am unable to find anything whatsever positive about the female version.
I have a small study/poll going among women whom I'm showing this thread to, I"ll post my results later. So far I haven't gotten any responses that I can print.
Posted by open_eyes (anonymous) on September 6, 2007 at 10:23 a.m. (Suggest removal)
This article did note that Masters & Johnson found no difference in sensitivity in male circumcision. However, for the female it is devastating.
http://www.circumstitions.com/AAP.html
And a quote from http://askmisscris.wordpress.com/2007/07...
that I think sums it up best:
"While I view male circumcision as “normal” I have to view it as a procedure the male has no control over. Perhaps in 20 years that male will want to have a fully, in tact penis with foreskin. I don’t know. I do not think it is the parental right to decide that. However, I have children, one being a boy and yes, he is circumcised. I twas the decision of his dad to do it. I was against the circumcision but I left the final decision to his father.
My son, as he has grown up now to the age of “almost 8″ has never complained of pain or problems and even as a baby he would get erections, so I know he is capable. I am sure that barring any unforeseen circumstances, his circumcision will not hinder his sex life in any way.
For a girl who has undergone any of the type’s of female circumcision, her sex life will never be the same. Her genitals are modified in a way where she will be lucky to have feeling at all let alone the ability to have a clitoral orgasm, and that is only in type I cases where the clitoris may only be split, although in most cases, it is completely removed.
There is a difference. The reasons behind them are all driven by cultural and ethnic opinions and practices. I personally would vote that neither be practiced but individuals be educated about hygiene and anatomy. But if I were told tomorrow I had the power to make 1 go away completely from the Earth, I would vote for female circumcision to end completely as it is beyond a slight modification for cleanliness - these girls can die more often than not from this procedure."
Posted by Weltha (anonymous) on September 6, 2007 at 10:26 a.m. (Suggest removal)
open eyes- Study/poll How do I participate?
Posted by open_eyes (anonymous) on September 6, 2007 at 1:17 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Weltha - I'm just informally talking to women/showing them this thread, I'll post later tonight, but I can tell you so far it's all 1 way, they don't see any comparison between the 2. So please post your own thoughts, whatever they may be.
Kstreb - I do somewhat agree on male curcumcision, while it is not a medical necessity, there are camps on boths sides with regards to sensitivity, cleanliness, etc. Although studies do seem to show less chance of contracting AIDS if you are circumcised. Of course, as with ANY medical procedure, there are always dangers involved, even with piercing your ears, or even cutting hair.
But to compare the 2 side by side, and say that if a person is against 1 they must be against the other or else they are a hypocrite, just makes no sense at all, unless you expect all people to just be spoon-fed whatever nonsense you want to tell them.
In China, they kill female babies - that's their culture - can I be against it, or must I be so politically correct that I look the other way and say, "well, its a different culture..."??? Story recently about a Pakistani family in the US where the father "honor killed" the daughter because she refused to be wed to some old goat back in Pakistan - do I have to close my eyes and hum, because it's a different culture?
Sure, all cultures have diversities and practices that may seem more or less barbaric to some people, but for crying out loud people, lets use some common sense. We're not talking about what people wear, who they pray to, or what food they eat. We're talking about universal human rights and dignities.
Piercing ears. I'm sure that there have been infections, and "piercings gone wrong", but I haven't seen alot of literature that shows that in 100% of the cases it causes total deafness for life, and that that is the sole purpose of the procedure. As I stated earlier, a better comparison would be comparing ear piercing(s) to total eardrum removal. They are both unnecessary medical procedures done on the ear, just "to different degrees".
As for posting, well, that's how things get changed, it has to start somewhere, even if it starts with 1 poster in a small-town newspaper. If everyone thinks they cannot make a difference, then no difference will ever be made. I guess nobody should vote in the next election, after all, we're each just 1 solitary vote...
So I"ve seen comments from men, and stated my personal experience, we need to hear from the sex that this is actually practiced on here.
Posted by KristieR (anonymous) on September 6, 2007 at 1:44 p.m. (Suggest removal)
As a female, I'm absolutely horrified at the practice of C's on females. I hope that through education, enlightenment, and the advancement of women's rights in 3rd world countries, the practice will someday be abolished. As a mother, I did C my two sons for purely cosmetic reasons. Am I ashamed of it? No.......it was a quick procedure while a topical numbing agent was used. I have dated both C'd and unC'd men. I completely prefer a C'd man to the other, but I'm o.k. with it being an optional procedure.
FWIW, I don't like ear piercing of babies either.
I'm glad the trainer from Tyson put some comments out there. I thought it might clear some things up for the close-minded people who only want to see themselves reflected in society.
Posted by Weltha (anonymous) on September 6, 2007 at 2:18 p.m. (Suggest removal)
open eyes
Weltha - I'm just informally talking to women/showing them this thread, I'll post later tonight, but I can tell you so far it's all 1 way, they don't see any comparison between the 2. So please post your own thoughts, whatever they may be.
Thanks for clarifying with me what you are doing. Feel free to add my .02 to your poll. I personally see no comparison. I have not met a man yet that has sexual issues because he missing some skin. Women who have been c'd on the other hand will never be able to really enjoy the experiance. After going through issues with my sons father not being C'd I chose to have it done to my son when he was born. Like KristieR says I to have dated both and prefer the c'd man. W/O going into detail its just nicer ; )
On the lighter side of the subject. Do most of us women really want a man who is MORE sensitive down there?Sorry had to. I'm done.
Posted by open_eyes (anonymous) on September 6, 2007 at 2:32 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Kstr - sorry, you're correct, you didn't specifically mention male C. Got my posts mixed together.
Yes, I doubt I will make a difference. I doubt my single vote made a difference in the last election, but I chose to vote anyway, and hope and pray that not every single person felt that way. Even if 100 different people vote from around here, to borrow/adapt your phrase. Maybe there are some women out there who are afraid to take a stance and all they need is to see or hear a few voices on their side to encourage them to speak out, and that will encourage more, etc.... Every dam breaking starts with a single crack, every snowball rolling downhill starts with a single flake.
Weltha - thanks. You have been much nicer in your comment(s) about UserName's stance than the women I've talked to so far....
Posted by KristieR (anonymous) on September 6, 2007 at 3:23 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Weltha~lol~Um, no........definately don't need a man who is more sensitive down there. Another reason I prefer the C'd male.
Posted by emporian (anonymous) on September 6, 2007 at 11:49 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Wow, it took me like 90 minutes to read all of this.
Posted by open_eyes (anonymous) on September 7, 2007 at 1:29 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Well, I've talked to/showed this thread to a few women today, and it has been unanimous - they were all appalled at the statement "if you are against female circumcision, but not against male circumcision, then you are a hypocrite and have no room to criticize". I really can't print the majority of the comments they had for that post, other than they would like to perform a "Lorena Bobbitt procedure" on him, (something they thought was to a "comparable matter of degree"). At the very least it was comforting to know that I'm not the only person that realizes in today's society as political correctness increases, commen sense decreases.
Proud to be labeled a hypocrite.
Posted by UserName (anonymous) on September 7, 2007 at 6:14 a.m. (Suggest removal)
"I really can't print the majority of the comments they had for that post, other than they would like to perform a "Lorena Bobbitt procedure" on him"
Ignorance knows no bounds.
Society has programmed you to think that it's perfectly acceptable to tie a newborn baby to a table and peel the skin from the most sensitive part of his body while he lays there helpless and screaming.
Whatever.
Posted by KristieR (anonymous) on September 7, 2007 at 8:18 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I saw my son's C. He slept through it. I didn't see any screaming and he certainly wasn't tied to the bed. Now, a Jewish bris is a whole different matter. Is THAT the procedure you are comparing this to? It's still not the same, but I shudder at that as well for I'm sure it is painful for the child.
K
Posted by open_eyes (anonymous) on September 7, 2007 at 9:36 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Um, your reading comprehension is slipping. Those were the comments of the women I talked to. I'm not programmed, I actually have enough sense to look at 2 things that differ by quite a "degree" and be able to tell the difference. They just felt that doing an LB would be comparable, since you think they should be compared on even terms.
I'm also for giving babies shots and vaccinations, even though they may be painful, (and there are instances where it goes wrong) but I'm against drilling a 2 inch hole through their shoulder just so their parents can attach a chain to it to keep them tethered. They're both the same thing, inserting a sharp object into their arm to puncture it, they just differ by degree.
Posted by open_eyes (anonymous) on September 7, 2007 at 9:43 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Actually, that's a poor analogy, as it would be for a different purpose. I guess I would have to say I would be for vaccinations but against injecting something that had the SOLE INTENT of being permanently harmful to the baby, or for the sole intent of decapitating part of the infant. The LB procedure would be comparable, as it would have the same intent as female C, to completely and 100% rob you of enjoyment of sex for life.
Posted by open_eyes (anonymous) on September 7, 2007 at 1:22 p.m. (Suggest removal)
It has gotten pretty humorous! Especially some of the comments I can't print! :)
Posted by UserName (anonymous) on September 7, 2007 at 5:44 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Ok, fine. Let's just say we have a difference of opinion.
You say it's ok to perform unnecessary/elective surgeries on baby boys without their consent, but it's not ok for girls. I say it's wrong to perform unnecessary/elective surgeries on ANYONE without their consent, boy or girl.
I disagree with your point of view, but you are certainly entitled to your opinion.
I also don't advocate chasing people out of town because they think differently than me. Last I heard, thinking differently isn't a crime.
You seem to be afraid that the Somali refugees are here to change our way of life - to promote female circumcision, convert us all to their religion, etc. Has it ever occured to you that the reason they are refugees is that they are trying to get AWAY from those types of things?
The fact that you are ready to run them out of town for being different speaks volumes about you. Look up the word bigot in the dictionary and ask yourself if you fit the definition.
I would also never advocate cutting someone's penis off and "other unprintable comments" for daring to have an opinion that I disagree with. The fact that your female friends made these comments says a lot about their integrity and character, too.
You said in an earlier post that you feel sorry for my children - simply because I think male AND female circumcision is wrong and I can't understand how you can be against one and not the other.
I suggest you save your pity for your own children. From the content of your posts and the comments of your friends, it sounds like your children need your pity a hell of a lot more than mine do.
Posted by open_eyes (anonymous) on September 7, 2007 at 8:50 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Well, I've looked back thru all my posts and here's some of my quotes:
"People come here (all of us) and work - Asian, African, European, etc - we meet them daily in all walks of life. There are and sadly always will be racists among us, but for those that come here and try their best to fit into American society and obey our laws and customs, they are generally met and received well. "
"Again, for those coming here for a better life, that want to adopt our ways and fit in, welcome. For those coming here that think we owe them and don't want to adopt our ways, I'm not willing to just sit back and be politically correct.
Just use some common sense."
"Are ALL people of this mystery religion bad? Of course not. Never said they were. I even know some that are very nice, wonderful people"
Really sounds like I'm ready to run them out of town, doesn't it?
Also, I never specifically said I was FOR male circumcision. YOU said I was. I said:
"So male circumcision (as any medical procedure) DOES carry some risks, but also some possible benefits, and their are views and medical opinions on both sides that would argue the remainder."
"Kstreb - I do somewhat agree on male curcumcision, while it is not a medical necessity, there are camps on boths sides with regards to sensitivity, cleanliness, etc. Although studies do seem to show less chance of contracting AIDS if you are circumcised. Of course, as with ANY medical procedure, there are always dangers involved, even with piercing your ears, or even cutting hair.
But to compare the 2 side by side, and say that if a person is against 1 they must be against the other or else they are a hypocrite, just makes no sense at all, unless you expect all people to just be spoon-fed whatever nonsense you want to tell them."
I think I'm finished. It is obviously pointless to argue further, with someone who doesn't read very well or comprehend what they read, in addition to attributing statements to people that they never made.
I simply said I am completely against female genital mutilation as explained above, and asked if the local Somalian community adhered to that practice. I think that the "degree" of difference in the 2 makes a huge amount of difference.
Posted by open_eyes (anonymous) on September 7, 2007 at 9:14 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Ran out of room, had to finish here.
Oh, you can blast me, I really don't mind when certain people do, in some cases I consider it an honor. As for my female friends, they are all very educated, intelligent, attractive women with alot of common sense. Not the type you'd like.
This was my favorite in the whole thread:
"Society has programmed you to think that it's perfectly acceptable to tie a newborn baby to a table and peel the skin from the most sensitive part of his body while he lays there helpless and screaming."
KristieR: "I saw my son's C. He slept through it. I didn't see any screaming and he certainly wasn't tied to the bed."
Priceless
G'Day, ya'll
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