A Lowe’s home improvement store apparently will be the centerpiece of a development described in the city’s first official application to create a Tax Increment Financing district here.
According to an application received by the city on Friday, D.J. Christie/Emporia Investors of Overland Park has asked for TIF and Transportation Development District (TDD) assistance “or some combination thereof,” for a planned development on the northeast corner of 24th Avenue and Industrial Road.
Christie’s representative in the application process is lead attorney F. Chase Simmons of Polsinelli, Shalton Slanigan Suelthaus, of Kansas City, Mo.
The application lists the following preliminary plans for five buildings on the 39.905 parcel of land:
• Lowe’s — an approximately 77,744 square-foot building for a home improvement store on the northwest part of the property. A 22,588 square-foot garden center and a 45,885 square-foot lumber yard also is included.
• Outlot A (potential restaurant) — a 45,900 square-foot pad site for a 4,500 square-foot building on the southwest corner.
• Outlot B (potential restaurant) — a 45,900 square-foot pad site for a 6,000 square-foot building.
• Lot C (potential retail establishment) — a 17,500 square-foot building, east of Outlot B, on a 2.526 acre pad site.
• Lot D (potential retail establishment) — a 14,025 square-foot building on a 3.201-acre pad site.
Lowe’s and Outlot A are scheduled to be open for business in the second year of the project; the remaining businesses would be opened in the project’s third year.
Christie’s application is on the agenda for the city commission’s study session at 9 a.m. Wednesday, city attorney Blaise Plummer said this morning.
Handling the application, and an auxiliary re-zoning request for the property, will be a “step-by-step process of development,” Plummer said.
Public hearings on both the zoning and the TIF application, a financial feasibility study, a study of potential impact on existing businesses, and other work will need to be completed before decisions can be made, he said. If the city commission decides to approve the application, boundaries would be set in a resolution to establish the TIF district.
“Now there’s a parallel process going on with the planning commission, which involves a Planned Unit Development (PUD) process for this project,” he said. “So all of the TIF and transportation district financing discussions are subject to final approval of zoning, and that’s just because of the site here that’s been chosen would have to achieve a re-zoning in order to support that project.”
The zoning process takes up to 60 days, he said, and the zoning commission’s recommendation will be presented to city commissioners for approval or denial. City commissioners also can send the matter back to the zoning commission for further study.
“So all these steps are tentative,” Plummer said. “In other words, establishing a TIF district is subject to the rezoning process.”
If a TIF district is established, commissioners next would need to designate the property as an area of economic blight. Kansas statute definition of economic blight is broadly written, Plummer said.
“It doesn’t necessarily have to be a dilapidated district; it can also be economic blight,” he said. “Land being vacant and land not being used for its best purposes” can constitute economic blight, and the developer will make the presentation about that.
An independent entity then would provide information to the city about the economic feasibility of the project.
“In other words, whether the tax increments that are going to be captured are sufficient to pay for the bond issued for the infrastructure and improvements,” Plummer said. “In addition, the economic studies would also indicate impacts on existing businesses, exactly how that would be forecast.
“This basically would give the city commission information they need to reach a final decision on the project.”
When all of those requirements have been satisfactorily met, the city commission would need to agree to partner with the private developer to create the TIF financing.
“That would be when you’re entering your final phase,” Plummer said. “Once all those things are established, then the bonds can be issued and the developer can proceed to the execution stage of actually starting that development and putting in place the new facilities.
“Any of these bases, or touchstones you might call, are critical to the success of the overall project. And so they have to be taken in turn, one step at a time, and analyze all the factors and to reach the appropriate decision.”
Plummer said that if the planning commission and city commission both approve the re-zoning, but the city commission decides not to create the TIF district, the property planned for the development ultimately would revert to its original zoning.
Plummer said that throughout the process, public comment will be open on both sides of the issue.
Christie already has gained TIF financing from Manhattan, Kansas City, Kan., Olathe, Ottawa and Pittsburg, and such assistance has become necessary for cities to attract retail development, Plummer said.
He contrasted the current development with the development of the Wal-Mart store on Industrial Road. Wal-Mart was done with private investment, “but in order for that store to go in there, the city of Emporia had to spend tax money developing the roads around there to handle the traffic,” he said. “At least if you do TIF financing for a project and TDD ... you recapture some of the (money). It’s not being funded by the taxpayers, it’s being funded by the development, by the increase in taxes. ...”
When the TIF and TDD are repaid, the increased taxation comes into the city budget.
This development, however, is the first formally requested assistance since the city commission last year approved such financing for retail businesses. City officials are studying the processes used by other Kansas cities, but still will need to approach the application methodically.
“The first time you do a process like this, there’s a learning curve,” Plummer said. “... Change is always challenging. The best way to deal with that is through developing facts. That’s what this process is attempting to do, is to reach a result that makes sense based on what facts you have developed.”
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Posted by rox_alan (anonymous) on August 25, 2008 at 2:23 p.m. (Suggest removal)
That is great that Lowe's wants to come to Emporia and I really hope it happens but there needs to be some other Manufacturing companies that will bring revenue in to Emporia cause we are losing our workforce to bigger cities cause there isn't anything here to offer the people looking for jobs. Just don't want to see some of other Home improvement stores get shoved out either when Lowe's comes in.
Posted by jayhawker (anonymous) on August 25, 2008 at 2:48 p.m. (Suggest removal)
rox_alan: You have precisely identified the problem with describing new retail as the Cavalry coming to our rescue. A new home improvement business will just take sales from the existing business. Other than the initial construction, in the end, it will not be of much help. It is good for consumers, however, by providing competition and different product lines.
Posted by netloafer (anonymous) on August 25, 2008 at 2:58 p.m. (Suggest removal)
This is going to be interesting.
I wasn't aware that northwest Emporia is blighted. Blaise and our city leadership is going to have a lot of fun contorting this around enough to make the dire poverty of the folks of northwest evident to the rest of us.
I wonder what they think downtown Emporia is. Upper crust? It must be. Business at the payday loan shops is booming.
Maybe along with the Lowe's they can open up a couple of pretzel shops.
Posted by photobuggy2 (anonymous) on August 25, 2008 at 3:29 p.m. (Suggest removal)
We give incentives to Lowe's...what about all the lowes type businesses that you didn't give incentives too??? If Lowe's wants to come to Emporia, then let them use their own money!
Posted by emporialifer (anonymous) on August 25, 2008 at 3:30 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Does Emporia really need a Lowe's? Do they have products/services that other companies already established in Emporia do not have or offer? I'm asking seriously because I have always been able to get everything I need from Mark II, Waters, Bluestem or Sutherlands. Now Sutherlands has not always been at the top of my list when it comes to service and helpfulness, but I've always had great experiences at Mark II and Waters.
Like rox and jayhawker, I sure hope Lowe's would not negatively effect those other businesses, but I can't imagine that it wouldn't impact them in one way or another.
Posted by admireed (anonymous) on August 25, 2008 at 3:42 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Does NOT work in many places. Study this. Take time. Discuss for 18-24 months to get it right or not at all.
Wichita situation http://www.kansas.com/news/story/475583....
Posted by dale011 (anonymous) on August 25, 2008 at 4:13 p.m. (Suggest removal)
If the city of Emporia planned out the roads and traffic on Industrial to accomodate the vehicles from Wal*Mart, they should be run out of town on a rail. That area has to be one of the most dangerous for vehicle traffic I have experienced for a long time. How in the world do you expect to put additional businesses back in there without endangering everyone that drives by? Aren't there other parts of town that have big enough spaces for a lumber yard?
Posted by nks (anonymous) on August 25, 2008 at 4:27 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I suppose they are hoping that out of towners and visitors frequent all of these new places?
They thought we needed a Stage too. I dont think that other than around the holidays have I ever seen more than 4 or 5 cars in that parking lot.
We need full time manufacturing jobs, not minimum wage part time jobs brought in.
Posted by Observation (anonymous) on August 25, 2008 at 4:35 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I am not surprised at all about a Lowes moving in next door to Sutherlands any more than I am about a Pizza Ranch moving in next door to the new Pizza Hut. I guess if we want boards or Pizza we will have choices! I wonder if Target will be moving in next door to Wal-Mart soon also. Then we would have something to boast about.
Posted by birch (anonymous) on August 25, 2008 at 5:24 p.m. (Suggest removal)
That land Lowe's wants IS being used for its' best purposes!
Unless you want to put in a Whorehouse! Then, I'll go for that!
Please, somebody tell me what a Tax Increment District is!
'I sure as hell don't want any tax dollars going for Commerical Concerns...especially for Some Big Rich Jerks!
We don't need Lowe's. Pure & Simple!
Posted by blulitespecial (anonymous) on August 25, 2008 at 6:10 p.m. (Suggest removal)
This is might be a bad deal all around-logistics,traffic flow,and only lower paying retail jobs.Retail is great,but a good balance of manufacturing and retail is better.Retail doesn't generate capitol-manufacturing and agriculture does.It's good to get businesses to locate here, but I think 75% of our time and resources should be spent getting "value added" companies and facilities here.Better paying jobs result when a company produces a product.Then it will be easier to get the retail stores and other service type companies.Years ago walmart would only open a store if they could get 9 million in sales out of the local economy.I'm sure that's a low ball figure now.Can we afford to send another 10-12 million a year to a corporate home office in another state?
Posted by truelovecharlie (anonymous) on August 25, 2008 at 6:15 p.m. (Suggest removal)
The tax district approach means the sales tax will be slightly higher on sales from that district. This pays for the improvements and incentives. Hays did that once Home Depot bought land out by WalMart. They use the extra taxes generated from the businesses in that district to pay the costs of the roads, sewer and all other costs associated with that specific developement area. It still seems idiotic to me to draw more retail to share the limited sales money without first drawing more industry that will employ people earning the kind of money to increase overall sales in the city/county. Right now the pie is only a certain size with several huge pieces already eaten from it. They will only cut the remaining slices into smaller portions and it will force some to shut their doors.
Posted by emporian (anonymous) on August 25, 2008 at 6:34 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Apparently Lowe's has been looking at credit card sales and has figured out that they are getting alot of business in other stores coming from this area. They dont just throw darts at a map and look to put in a store. Just like our retail study, they have one that shows they can be profitable. If they want in let them in. I dont think they should get any special breaks however. The other stores did it without the breaks, nobody should get special treatment. That being said, we spend alot of money at Lowe's in Topeka so our money would be staying in the area. I imagine alot more people are doing the same thing.
Posted by nks (anonymous) on August 25, 2008 at 9:38 p.m. (Suggest removal)
How many people are they expected to employ and at what wages do they normally start at?II bet the higher paying salary positions are coming in from out of town already in the Lowe's system.
I just do not see, especially how bleak the recent past has been with our better paying manufacturing base that we think the answer is more $8/hr jobs and restaraunts.
Posted by robert (anonymous) on August 25, 2008 at 10:46 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Interesting comments above. Some non-progressive native Emporians bemoaning a large retailer who is interested in setting up shop - along with possible restaurants - just as Tyson leaves for greener pastures. ("We don't need Lowe's. Pure & Simple!") How predictable and boring. But, I'll bet this same person shops at Wal Mart, now don't you!?
Manufacturing is not coming back, folks. Keep dreaming. You cannot compete with the third-world worker making a dollar a day. Those jobs are gone and they are not coming back. Now, is retail the answer? More likely, high-tech and "green technologies" are the real answer to future jobs. But you better stop and ask yourself who else is going to come to Emporia, Kansas with any type of job. There has to be a reason why a high-tech or "green" companies would come here. Those reasons are not apparent. Lowe's has store and mid-management opportunities, and they promise better service and products than some of these other outfits who could care less if you spend money in their store or not. Don't forget that some people will choose to spend their money here rather than Topeka or Wichita.
There's a reason why this town has lost population over the past several years. Stop and think about it...
Posted by jaredfromsubway (anonymous) on August 25, 2008 at 10:55 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I do believe Lowes would be a good addition in the long term. Emporialifer is pragmatic with concerns of other local businesses. It's reality that for Emporia to grow and attract the best people, there will need to be big name companies that people are familiar with to comfort their moves. A person could live off of Walmart (if there is a Subway inside) and Lowes alone.
Fortunately, current businesses can plan for this if it does come to fruition. Sutherland's should encourage their employees to apply at Lowes (I would guess around 80 people needed). They can then pull out without too much negative impact on the community. Mark II can focus on contractors and provide superior service (selection, delivery, etc) for those. Even if their prices are somewhat higher, most of this will be passed on to others, so it won't be so apparent. Waters will be impacted, but with the right selection of inventory, will most likely hang in there, especially since they are part of a larger group of stores and do rent cool equipment. Bluestem is in a slightly diffrerent market segment and will still be competitive in a highly agricultural dependent economy. Better inventory management couldn't hurt here also.
I'm not so excited about the prospect of more eateries. How much can a person eat (Village Inn, hello)? I don't think we need everyone from Emporia looking like what I did in 1996. If the community expects to get anymore race car drivers promoted to the pros, they at least need to fit through the window, as my buddy Tony has found out the hard way (don't worry, he's cool with it).
Eat Fresh
Posted by JohnDoe (anonymous) on August 25, 2008 at 11:55 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I've said it before and i'll say it again. We need new business in Emporia, not more of the same. Lowe's coming in will put Sutherlands (and possibly others) out of business. All we can expect to gain is more empty buildings. We'll be losing without really gaining anything new. How about a home decorating store like HomeGoods, an italian restaurant, maybe a Chipotle. Hardware and lumber are probably the last things I would need to travel out of town for. As a matter of fact I've always found a good selection of whatever I need with the stores in town. I'm ready for something unseen in Emporia, who's with me?
Posted by jayhawker (anonymous) on August 26, 2008 at 12:18 a.m. (Suggest removal)
blulitespecial: You hit it on the head. I wish that I could have said it as well. Unfortunately, there is also some truth in what robert said (although obviously his mother taught him few manners) unless our local leadership gets on the ball.
emporian: Other than the sales tax that you pay, only a tiny portion of what you spend at the proposed Lowe's will stay in Emporia. The products were manufactured elsewhere, and that money goes out of town. The store's profits go to out of town investors. The only portion that stays is what small amount is earned by local workers. That is why retail is not an efficient method of economic recovery, especially if it takes business from another local retailer. In the end, it is mostly a reshuffle of existing money. As bluelitespecial said, you only add wealth to the community if you make something (i.e., "add value" to something).
Posted by sciguy (anonymous) on August 26, 2008 at 3:09 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Lowes will no doubt be part of the wave of companies that will be shutting underperforming stores as the current economic problems worsen.
I would not hold my breath that they will be opening a store in a town that is already in such financial difficulty. Perhaps a few years from now, but if they open it before Emporia's job market improves then you can probably expect them to go Cracker Barrel fairly soon.
Posted by LifeGoesOn (anonymous) on August 26, 2008 at 6 a.m. (Suggest removal)
It just amazes me that some on here are ALWAYS pissing and moaning and complaining and whining about how Emporia needs jobs, then when Something comes along that might at least create a few jobs, they want to bitch about it and say it ain't good enough and it ain't going to do no good to anybody by bringing it here, Give me a break! It was only a week or two ago that a new place to eat was in the paper, and out comes the complainers, with comments like we dont need "that kind" of place, we need a different kind. for crying out loud people, It's NEW business! Thats what you wanted!
I think a Lowes would be great, and if they wanted to put it in my freaking back yard, more power to them! An agurement is that it would put others out of business, maybe, maybe not. even if it does I'm sure more people will have new jobs compared to those who may lose a job. Others wonder about putting it in NW Emporia, where else would you have them put it, down by the Zoo? out by Norfolk Iron? Emporia is GROWING to the N.W. thats why new businesses are being built out that way! duh! Dont ALWAYS expect Emporia to grow from the center out, most cities dont. Why would Emporia be different. A final note. if ya dont like Emporia OR the way it is being lead, I'll help you pack you crap and buy you a bus ticket out!
Posted by netloafer (anonymous) on August 26, 2008 at 6:05 a.m. (Suggest removal)
"If a TIF district is established, commissioners next would need to designate the property as an area of economic blight. Kansas statute definition of economic blight is broadly written, Plummer said."
This is the crux of the problem. The real purpose of TIF's/TDD's is to eliminate urban blight, the type of blight we have in our downtown corridor. The real estate in the proposed area is anything but blighted. In fact, the property values in that area are quite high by Emporia standards. IT IS NOT BLIGHTED!
Here's a little blurb from some of the experience Pittsburgh, PA had with TIF's a few years ago:
"A seemingly neutral development tool, TIF can be bent to the will of its proponents. In Pittsburgh, for example, TIF has largely been used to build retail developments and commercial establishments not in blighted areas, but on some of the most valuable real estate in the region. The most notorious use of TIF was for the construction of a new downtown department store and refurbishment of the company's former store into office space. The price tag for this development was $130 million, not including relocation costs and lost tax revenues. The increased value of the buildings? Only $38 million."
The author of the study notes that there are three key elements to a good TIF proposal It should:
"1. create jobs, not merely transfer them from another location
2. Lead to value-added activity and have multiplier effects on the local economy
3. be devoted to blighted areas, not ones with substantial value"
I suppose this is all a moot point. The commissioners and developers will get their way. Blaise Plummer will find some clever way to declare the area blighted, the developer will get the money for infrastructure from us, median incomes will remain low, poverty rates won't decline, and the real areas of blight in Emporia will remain.
Posted by create (anonymous) on August 26, 2008 at 6:43 a.m. (Suggest removal)
With regard to those 3 key elements noted by netloafer, I can see where only number 1 would be satisfied, and even then only partially because those "new" jobs would likely be minimum wage. No help there. Numbers 2 and 3? Hardly.
Remember folks, there will be a public meeting on this on October 15.
Posted by landinkansas (anonymous) on August 26, 2008 at 7:23 a.m. (Suggest removal)
LifeGoesOn - Excellent comment to those that constantly complain!
Posted by netloafer (anonymous) on August 26, 2008 at 7:51 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Create
That's our problem. We are going to get this project, but it really doesn't fit the criteria TIF's were created for.
Blaise Plummer will declare the 24th Avenue corridor blighted and the ball will be rolling. Anyone can see that the area doesn't fit any good sense definition of the word "blighted," but Blaise and the commissioners use legalize and then twist the meaning around to fit the definition.
We'll get the project and not much will change. Our median incomes will remain low, etc. The payday loan shops will continue to thrive. The slum lords will still profit.
Posted by tosie (anonymous) on August 26, 2008 at 8:53 a.m. (Suggest removal)
And 24th from Industrial to Prairie will be impossible to drive through because traffic will be horrific!!!! What a way to ruin a RESIDENTIAL area.....once again, plenty of room in other areas of town and I agree we need some other type of business, not one like the existing businesses that are already here.
Posted by emporiahelper (anonymous) on August 26, 2008 at 8:55 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Lowes would be an awesome attribute to Emporia. We need more bussiness and i hope it runs Sutherlands out because they suck and maybe then we can build a decent mall. We have no shopping and all we have for food is fast food. This town is going down hill and thats why we need to strive to bring in big businesses. The more big businesses we bring the more others see and then they also want to come.
Posted by momus (anonymous) on August 26, 2008 at 8:55 a.m. (Suggest removal)
This project will not create net job growth. Studies have shown that, for every one job created at a big box, between 1.5 and 3 related jobs are lost in the community. That's the problem we are facing here. Everyone wants to speak in gross terms without focusing on net effects.
Posted by emporialifer (anonymous) on August 26, 2008 at 8:57 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I don't think my comments were "pissing and moaning" by any means and I do not constantly complain about not enough businesses or choices and then throw out the idea when one considers coming here. All I was saying is that I thought Emporia's "Lowe's type needs" could already be met by other businesses in town, but perhaps I am wrong.
Has there been some kind of poll done as far as the type of products that most Emporians go out of town to shop for? If the majority of those products are coming from Lowe's or Home Depot then yes, Lowe's makes sense and welcome to the community. I've always felt where Emporia has lacked is in the clothing department choices and being a college town (we know college kids like to shop - they aren't spending all their money at the bars) I would think something more than Buckle, Maurices and Penney's would be useful (Stage was a joke). Just my 2 cents.
I welcome new business and wish them luck. I just don't want to see an empty building in 6 months
Posted by citizen (anonymous) on August 26, 2008 at 9:48 a.m. (Suggest removal)
What I would like to see are beautiful store fronts instead of ugly colors. Go to El Dorado and look at their Wal-Mart. It looks good and you could be proud of it. I believe their Sutherlands has the same look. We should make sure when a store opens that it is appealing instead of cheap looking.
Posted by eiggohp (anonymous) on August 26, 2008 at 11:09 a.m. (Suggest removal)
OH MY GOSH!!! Emporia beware!!!~~~ J.D. Christie is the main "developer" who sold Junction City "a bill of goods" that has been nothing but trouble for them. Their debt load is so bad that they had to go to the legislature and have it raised and property taxes are so bad that people are wanting to leave the city, if they can find anyone to buy their homes. They are in a terrible mess....thanks to Christie I hope that the Emporia city commissioners are much wiser than the "push overs" that Junction City has....BEWARE...HE IS TROUBLE!
Posted by booker5m (anonymous) on August 26, 2008 at 12:29 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Time to do a recall on all the comishs and new city manager . Get some people who know we need industry not more shopping centers!
Posted by hogan77 (anonymous) on August 26, 2008 at 12:36 p.m. (Suggest removal)
LifeGoesOn: You are so right... people in Emporia need to learn to stop complaining when something they ask for is given to them.
I feel that Lowe's will be a great asset to Emporia. Reason being... Lowe's is one of those stores that you see in larger communities. Perhaps other developers will see the trend they are starting, and being their big business in as well. They will have that "If Lowe's can do it, so can we" vibe going.
You have to start with whatever is handed to you. True, Sutherland's MIGHT go out of business. Then again, they may not. How many people shop mainly at Wal-Mart, but also go to other stores to get things that Wal-Mart does not carry? How many people buy their basic necessities there, but shop in the mall for their clothes? Lowe's will offer Emporians another option when it comes to finding things they want. And rather than running off to Topeka or Wichita, they can at least shop in their own neighborhood for those things, hence, keeping the money in their community.
Looking on the other side of this.. if Sutherland's does close, perhaps that would open up the opportunity for another place to take it's spot in the mall. Emporia could use a few places that are aimed towards the working class shopper. Old Navy would make an excellent edition to the mall, especially in the spot where Sutherland's is. They offer decent clothing, at a Wal-Mart price. The mall could definitely use some revamping. A few other stores in there, to make it seem like an actual mall- rather than a shopping center, which is what it is now. How many malls do you go to that have a lumber yard and a driver's license center in them? That space could be better utilized by other companies, ones aiming their business towards the working class family.
Posted by create (anonymous) on August 26, 2008 at 12:43 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Whatever your reasons for supporting or opposing this proposal for Lowe's, you need to attend the meeting on October 15. Posting your agreement or disagreement is not enough. Be there.
"Zimmerman said they will start the process of setting up a public hearing for the TIF and TDD, likely at the October 15th city commission meeting. And the discussion of the ordinance for the rezoning would come up at the October 15th city commission meeting. If the city moves forward with those, the city will then further discuss the TIF and TDD plan, and have possible approval by January." KVOE
Posted by emporian (anonymous) on August 26, 2008 at 1:16 p.m. (Suggest removal)
All my friends laugh when they see Sutherlands in the mall. I have heard "only in Kansas would they have a lumber yard in the mall".
To all the people who keep saying industry...It isn't coming to Emporia so get over it. It is alot easier (read that cheaper) to produce it out of the US and industry is leaving this country at an alarming rate. You aren't going to get industry. Take what you can get. We can recruit till we are blue in the face, but manufacturing jobs aren't just gonna come swooping in.
It is pretty typical for Emporia to try and block anything new that wants to come into this community. So far it has happened with Hill's Petfood, The Biodiesel plant, and now Lowe's. Everybody wants it, but nobody wants it in their back yard. We have a business that wants to be here and all people can do is complain.
Posted by LifeGoesOn (anonymous) on August 26, 2008 at 7:50 p.m. (Suggest removal)
emporian and hogan77, good posts! I cant say enough how many people on these forums just like to bitch about something, when Empoia gets a new business, Any new business, all I ever here from many here is, we dont need that or that wont work here or I wanted something different. I hope these people will someday get tired of crying like little children when they do not get their way. I welcome any and all new business that want to take a chance on Emporia and it's residents, Some will fail and some wont. Other places may go out or they may rise up and make more money.New business is new business. It seems many people on here think its better to sit back and DO NOTHING rather than take some risks to make Emporia grow, If I remember correctly these are the same ones who thought Emporia was going to become a ghost town because Tyson laid off employees, Guess what Emporia is still here and STILL trying to grow even if the complainers keep complaining.
Posted by netloafer (anonymous) on August 26, 2008 at 8:49 p.m. (Suggest removal)
LifeGoesOn
I think you've hit on something. Rather than use TIF's/TDD's and develop in northwest Emporia why don't we have the city claim eminent domain on your place (they can since Kelo v. New London), buy the place from you for pennies on the dollar, then build the Lowe's.
There are a lot of us who want to see this city develop. We liked the idea of a bio-diesel plant and supported the idea when the construction started. The problem with the project was that the only thing that made it possible was federal subsidies for the construction and the product produced. When the subsidies died because the price of corn and agrictultural commodities skyrocketed, the developer put the project on hold because they didn't want to invest their money in the project (only ours would do). We support the construction of Hill's and hope it does well. We support ideas like bringing 21st century jobs to this community (high tech, bio-science, etc) so that we can retain college graduates rather than watching the continual brain drain as they leave because they don't want to spend their lives managing at Tyson or some other low wage job. We support bringing higher paying jobs here that the new global economy is creating so that we can lift the median incomes of people and move others from poverty to middle class. We support working with E.S.U. and FHTC to find ways to bring this city's minorities into the world of higher education.
I don't think people are commenting here because they don't care; they're commenting because they do. Myself, I think something is wrong when this city's leaders are going to try to find creative ways to call an upscale (at least by Emporia's standards) part of town blighted. It will take some enourmous twisting to do it, but I have no doubt that Blaise Plummer will be succesful. Meanwhile, the parts of town that are in desperate need of an economic boost will be ignored.
If that's a complaint, so be it. I think your offer to give up your house for this Lowe's project is a great remedy and would be satisfactory to almost everyone on this forum.
Posted by LifeGoesOn (anonymous) on August 26, 2008 at 9:35 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Netloafer, I didnt "offer" to give up squat, I believe what I said was
"I think a Lowes would be great, and if they wanted to put it in my freaking back yard, more power to them! " I wouldn't have to drive far to get my supplies! You should try harder not to put words in others mouths, you seem to have yours overflowing most of the time as it is.
Let me ask you, where would you put a lowes? commerical street? seems a bit dumb to me, but you seem to think because it needs business that it is a better location. How about on South east street, pretty low income homes there? or maybe next to the skate board park? I am so tired of you always thinking you have all the answers about EVERYTHING that comes out in the paper.
I can agree with you about how "we" would like to have all those things you mention, My problem is that when that does not happen, YOU have to bitch about everything else that is moving forward. Its like , if I cant have a great big high paying,good for the enviroment,multi million dollars company come to Empoia and give Empoia Tons os tax relief and hundreds of jobs, Then I'm going to stomp my feet and pound my hands on the floor and just not accept anything.
Give it a rest already! You have not changed ANYBODIES mind or opinion by all your constant ramblings. People will either agree with you or disagree, you telling anybody who happens to be willing to listen to you more than 10 minutes ain't going to change their opinion. (at least, their opinion on the topic) their opinion of you might change. I know mine has!
Posted by jayhawker (anonymous) on August 26, 2008 at 11:17 p.m. (Suggest removal)
LifeGoesOn: I don't know the origins of the bur under your saddle, but I think that you confuse constructive comments with harsh criticism. You protest so vigorously it makes me wonder if perhaps you were not a party to some of the poor decisions that put us where we are. It sounds like that may be why you are so defensive. Lets be totally honest here - Emporia's leadership failed us over the last 10 or so years, the result being that we lost 2,000 jobs in two years. A town of 26,000 people will be knocked to its knees with loses like that. Perhaps we should listen to people like netloafer, for Lord knows, the people who have been in charge have failed miserably. The old ideas and approaches have not worked; lets listen to some new ones, and give them a chance. They can't be any worse than what we've had.
Posted by emporian (anonymous) on August 27, 2008 at 2:01 a.m. (Suggest removal)
You know Jayhawker, I think this is a different approach. For at least the last 10 years we have been trying to recruit manufacturing to come here with the philosophy that retail will follow. Look at where we are now with that mentality. So here we are with a chance to do something different. Believe it or not, I have been to towns with lots of retail and nothing to speak of for industry. When you become a destination town for area buyers and sales tax starts pouring in you can get things done. Will it work here, I dont know. I do know we need to try something different and this is a chance to do just that.
Posted by LifeGoesOn (anonymous) on August 27, 2008 at 6:17 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Jayhawker, The only bur I have, for the most part, is with people who ALWAYS seem to think their opinion is the ONLY one that matters, This is the impression I seem to get from Netloafer. I know who netloafer is and have seen him speak in pulic forums brfore. In my opinion (which is worth about 2 cents) he likes to hear himself talk much more than people like to listen to him. Thats my Bur.
Now as far as the rest of your comment, I have lived here in Emporia my entire life, every year I do better than the year before.My chilren are doing better than I was at their age and I am doing better than my parents did at my age. My family has lived here for well over a hundred years and Emporia is still here, Emporia is still growing! If you and people like netloafer cant see that , you should get out more! Is Emporia and bigger town than is was 10 years ago? 20 yrs? YES it is
Do I like paying taxes? no, do I always agree with the decisions the city and county leaders make? no. But I dont sit back and "complain" about Every freaking choice they make. WE (emporians) elected them to office, let them do their jobs, If you dont like the job they do, Run For Office or Get someone different. Personally I dont think it really matters who gets in office, there will be those out there who seem to think they can do better.
Posted by netloafer (anonymous) on August 27, 2008 at 8:43 a.m. (Suggest removal)
LifeGoesOn
I actually don't like the sound of my voice, but it's the one the Almighty gave me.
Is mine the only opinion that matters? Of course not. I've never said that. I say the things I say and write the things I write because I care. I believe that I have the right to my opinions and you have the right to tune them out or criticize them. Men and women better than you and me fought to ensure that we all have that right. I don't believe they served so that we would have uniform opinions.
There are also lots of areas where city leaders and I agree. They know it, because I've told them so. They also know the areas where we disagree. This is how I believe things should be.
I do get out - a lot. I see things in this town that I believe need attention. I see slum lords taking advantage of people with limited means all around the downtown area. I see the empty storefronts and the payday loan shops. I care about these things.
I also read the statistics. I'd love to see this city grow. Unfortunately, the population of Emporia has been stagnant or in decline since 2000. I'd love to see this city and everyone living here, including you and your family, prosper. Unfortunately, our median household incomes are among the lowest in this state ($31,000) and the poverty rates are also among the highest in the state (close to 17%).
Posted by momus (anonymous) on August 27, 2008 at 8:45 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Just a couple of quick thoughts... There are manufacturing jobs out there. They may not be as large in number as we like, but frankly a series of smaller batch manufacturers may be more advantageous for the city long term (they have the capacity to grow and multiple smaller manufacturers diversify the local economy). If industry is impossible to recruit, as some would suggest, why are continuing to emphasize the RDA, Emporia Enterprises, et al? We need manufacturing, tech and service jobs to help drive our economy, that's why.
Secondly, regarding the assertion that we have the opportunity to become a retail destination, I believe that is true IF we offer different alternatives to the surrounding trade areas. If we look at Emporia's relatively small trade area, and then compare and contrast with the surrounding trade areas, we have to ask ourselves some tough questions. First, is anyone from a surrounding trade area (Topeka, Manhattan, KC, Wichita, Salina, etc.) going to leave their big box store to travel to our SAME big box store. Nope. If I live in Topeka, and I've got a Lowes in my back yard, I'm not hopping on the turnpike to travel to Emporia's Lowes. So, will this Lowes prevent people from traveling out of town? Nope. There will always be larger stores in the surrounding larger communities that Emporia cannot support. People will continue to drive to those cities because they have more options (because their much larger populations support more options). That leaves us with one of two paths that we can choose. Very few, extremely large national big box chains crammed into the NW corner of Emporia that capture existing sales (thus putting people out of business and creating ACTUAL blight throughout the rest of the town, while failing to address people leaving town and the lack of trade from larger surrounding trade areas), or we can try and support/create entrepreneurial ventures to address leakage and create unique shopping that people from outside our trade area WOULD visit. We can do one or the other. There isn't enough sales capacity to do both. So choose... I wish we could have user initiated polls on these blogs...
Posted by LifeGoesOn (anonymous) on August 27, 2008 at 2:04 p.m. (Suggest removal)
netloafer
Emporia Census
1870 2,168
1880 4,631 113.6%
1890 7,551 63.1%
1900 8,223 8.9%
1910 9,058 10.2%
1920 11,273 24.5%
1930 14,067 24.8%
1940 13,188 −6.2%
1950 15,669 18.8%
1960 18,190 16.1%
1970 23,327 28.2%
1980 25,287 8.4%
1990 25,512 0.9%
2000 26,760 4.9%
Seems to me it's growing more every decade. The highways leading to and out of Emporia have continued to improve, I have watched things improve over the last 20 years, like government buildings, Swimming pool, improvements to the zoo and several improvements to parks in addition to several New parks, better trained police and fire depts, new homes and apts, bigger and better medical facilities and the list goes on and on. I have watched Emporia grow to the east as well as the northwest.
You spout of figures like, "poverty rates are also among the highest in the state (close to 17%)." What would you expect? we did just lose a 1000 or more jobs when Tyson canned them, is that the cities fault? For crying out loud, give Emporia a chance to recover, It always has in hard times and I believe it will this time. Life isnt always going to be a bowl of cherries netloafer, sometimes it can be hard, no matter what you agree with or disagree with. Try looking on the bright side once in a while instead of always finding the problem with everything. I mean I'm sure I can point out All those things that need attention just the same as you, but the way I see it is, positive people and positive things bring in positive things and positive people. if I were looking to start a business and happened to read these forums, i would say, Oh Hell No! Emporia is a dried up ghost town, empty buildings everywhere, poverty, no decent jobs, etc etc.
maybe telling people the positive about Emporia will do more than always telling the negitive, JMO
Posted by mermel (anonymous) on August 27, 2008 at 4:22 p.m. (Suggest removal)
momus, ugh...you annoy me.
i agree with Life Goes On! maybe you don't like the sound of your own voice, but you do love hearing the BS that comes out of your mouth!
Posted by netloafer (anonymous) on August 27, 2008 at 6:23 p.m. (Suggest removal)
LifeGoesOn
Emporia's population in 2006 declined from 26,760 to 26,188 (a 2.1% decrease). The only other pediod of decline was the 1940 number, which can be accounted for by WWII and men leaving for the war.
There are no published numbers for 2007/2008, but there is almost certainly going to be a Tyson effect.
Emporia's median household incomes in 2000 were $30,809. In 2005 it was $31,400 (a 1.9 percent increase in five years, or basically stagnant or declining in real dollar terms).
Those are the cruxes of our problem. We need more disposable income. We need to retain college graduates and create professional level jobs for them. We need to find avenues of lifting this city's economically disadvantaged into an education stream. We need to do the same for many in our minority communities. We need to tackle the slum lord problem once and for all.
If that's complaining, so be it.
What's interesting is that I don't think I ever said much about whether or not I supported the project. I did say I'd be interested to know exactly how the city is going to declare that corridor "blighted." I've also said the city will get the project.
I also had a brief opportunity to speak with D.J. Christie this morning about TIF's/TDD's. He didn't seem to mind the question(s) about the primary purpose for the crafting of these projects. I think we are agreed that the best possible use for them is to remedy true blight and spur economic development in economically depressed areas of cities.
I can cite a few examples. One is a project undertaken by Ikea, a Swedish furniture/appliance store. They relocated to Port Newark/Port Elizabeth, NJ with a store that was about 500,000 sq. feet. Ikea took on the project because they said they wanted to open U.S. markets and also be responsible redevelopers. The store hired only those people in the Port Elizabeth/Port Newark area, which created jobs for people in an area where unemployment was 10% or higher. They also got the city to agree that sales on the purchases in this enterprise zone would not be subject to NJ sales tax. The net effect was that people who were deemed unemployable got jobs, the city got business property taxes from Ikea, and the people in the surrounding areas got bargains, and Ikea got profits. It was a win-win-win-win.
The city market area of KC is another example. Old delapidated factories and industrial buildings are being converted into lofts. The incentives are given to the unit buyers, with 15 year tax abatements (these incentives are worth about $15K to $25K per unit purchaser). Young professionals are buying them up and moving in. Small businesses are following. So is retail and restauarants. The area is booming. There is a ways to go before things are the way everyone really wants them to be , but there is no doubt that things are on the move.
Posted by LifeGoesOn (anonymous) on August 27, 2008 at 7:24 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Net loaf , How did I know you would have all the answers,lol
as far as the population, I think I proved my point, it has continued to climb thru the years and will continue to climb in the furture, despite your opinion. are we in a slow down? probably, but we will recover, we ALWAYS HAVE.
I really dont give a flying rats behind about a "Swedish furniture/appliance store" in NJ or what is happening in K.C. with with 15 year tax abatements and how Young professionals are buying them up and moving in.. NEWS FLASH, we are not N.J. or K.C. not even close, so to "cite" them as examples does not hold much water.
Lastly you say "Those are the cruxes of our problem" maybe you should have said,"Those are the cruxes of YOUR problem" As I have said before, you always find a problem with everything. You never seem to see any positive about anything, It's always,
This wont work or that isnt what we need or how is that going to be possible or we dont need that. Give it a rest already.
Although I do believe your intentions may be good, you have a way of rubbing some the wrong way with the way you go about trying to get your point across. I wish downtown emporia was in better shape, I wish the south side had better streets, I wish more jobs and better income was out there for everybody, I think Most would want those things. But I heard somewhere before, you have to learn to crawl before you walk and you have to walk before you can run. YOU just seem to want to run first. And in case you didnt notice, ALL cities have slumlords, ALL cities have unemployment, all cities have taxes and All cities have people just like you who want that to change right this minute. It ain't going to happen there friend! soon as you figure that out maybe you can live a happier life and not be so caught up with all the bad things that go on around you. I figure you should visit mexico or somalia or some other third world county for a year or so, my guess is you would come home to dear ol Empoia and be Thankful for all you have!
Posted by jayhawker (anonymous) on August 27, 2008 at 10:45 p.m. (Suggest removal)
netloafer & momus: There are people among us who prefer to hide their heads in the sand. I believe that they want what is best for our community, but they know nothing but the same, tired old ways.
Posted by sciguy (anonymous) on August 28, 2008 at 3:43 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Perhaps what we need is better language to describe employment positions.
A "Job" would be a career-track position that pays a wage or salary at least high enough for a young parent in a dual-income home to get by on. Generally: management, professional, creative, or advanced trades.
A...what shall we call it..."Assistant Job", "Subjob", what have you...is a non-career-track position that pays a wage or salary at or below 2x minimum wage. Generally: retail floor/register jobs, non-licensed positions, non-management food service, and entry-level heavy labor.
What Emporia needs is JOBS. What Lowes will bring is perhaps four JOBS and a couple of dozen SUBJOBS. And probably two to three of those JOBS will be filled by existing Lowes employees.
Posted by LifeGoesOn (anonymous) on August 28, 2008 at 6:53 a.m. (Suggest removal)
So I guess what jayhawker, netloaf and sciguy are saying is, Not having ANY new jobs/subjobs or ANY new business is not good enough for a start and at least headed in a better direction, They just want top dollar jobs NOW or nothing at all.
Talk about having your head in the sand!
All I hear is how some posters want big factorys that pay big wages to 1000's of employees and if Emporia cant get that then we might as well have Nothing new come our way.
I say having any new business come to Emporia, be it a lumber yard or a pizza place or even a new place downtown with apartments in it, is a good start, it will at least employee a few people who dont have jobs now, it creates new taxes and it helps Emporia keep growing.
Posted by glarson (Gwen Larson) on August 28, 2008 at 7:23 a.m. (Suggest removal)
OK, folks. This comment is No. 50, so we're going to move to a forum. Before you go, I'd ask that the new forum remain civil. We may not agree with each other's opinions, but there's no reason to attack each other.
For those who don't like someone's tone, don't read those posts. This thread started with some constructive ideas, but it's turned into something sounding more like the politics of junior high recess.
So... let's agree to disagree on some points and begin discussing anew:
http://www.emporiagazette.com/forums/ope...
Gwen Larson
Managing Editor