Posted by glarson (Gwen Larson) on August 28, 2008 at 7:20 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Further comment from the original story:

http://www.emporiagazette.com/news/2008/...

Posted by momus (anonymous) on August 28, 2008 at 8:35 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I think what people are saying, LifeGoesOn, is that there is compelling evidence of an actual net job loss (for every one job gained a national average of between 1.5 and three are lost). And, because big boxes are relatively reluctant to move into the Emporia market, we have some good data concerning the net effects these businesses have on a community. Plus, these aren’t the types of jobs needed to make Emporia grow. Ignoring those statistics, and mimicking the Kevin Bacon character in "Animal House" (ALL IS WELL, ALL IS WELLLLLL!), regardless of the evidence at hand does no long term good for Emporia.

There are negative people in Emporia that are negative regardless of the situation. There are positive people in Emporia that refuse to acknowledge (or deal with) even the most glaring problems. And then we have people like Netloafer, that recognize problems, discus said problems with government officials and attempt to find solutions for those problems while remaining critical of programs that either ignore problems or take actions that potentially compound pre-existing issues. The truly positive position is to take steps that enhance our overall strategic position and put us on the path we want to be on with positive NET benefits.

I will again pose the question to those charging negativity: we can either support very few, very large national chains in the NW corner of Emporia, or we can have several smaller, more independent businesses throughout the city. The market currently isn't big enough for both. Which do you choose, and why?

Posted by Weltha (anonymous) on August 28, 2008 at 9:47 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I think everyone who is replying to lifegoeson is wasting their time. He/she seems bent on riling people up. Although this is about the most exciting these forums have been since kstreb quit posting. When I get bored I just get here to get a good chuckle.

Posted by TacoBellB (anonymous) on August 28, 2008 at 1:58 p.m. (Suggest removal)

and I thought I was the annoying one on this board. life is giving me a run for my money.

Posted by sciguy (anonymous) on August 28, 2008 at 6:27 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Perhaps Lifegoeson can try doing some economic calculations. What happens to the economic health of the community if the production and professional jobs go away and are replaced by retail?

Who, exactly, will be shopping at those stores? Retail jobs aren't going to bring in the kind of growth needed to sustain retail businesses.

Posted by LifeGoesOn (anonymous) on August 28, 2008 at 7:01 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Ok folks, I'll go along with your way of thinking, Lets just not bring in any new business, no new lumber yards, no new pizza plases, no apartments downtown, no new retail stores No new business Unless it will provide 1000's of residents with good high paying wages that people will be able to make a good living, Then once we get that, we can send them all out of town to shop somewhere else and spend all that big money somewhere else because there will not be anything here for the to spend their money on. And all those from out of town in the "bigger better cities" can stay away also because Emporia wont have anything that will bring them here. that sound just super! You may not agree with me and I may not agree with you, I still say until we can get those big factory jobs and high paying jobs, I welcome the smaller businesses that will provide some people with a job even if it's at a lower wage.

As for you Welltha, I at least have an opinion, I dont try to ride the coat tails of others by jumping in with meaningless comments. It's easy to sit back and say nothing. Lets hear your opinions on Lowes, or the new proposed Apartments downtown, or even the proposed pizza place that may come in? lets hear your opinion on Anything, dont just pipe in with comments against other posters.

momus, I see where your coming from, really, but I don't think some see what I am trying to say, My whole point has been (on several forums) is that for the most part, many who make posts on here are always giving their opinions as to what is "best " for Emporia by saying everything that is wrong with Emporia. It's always Negitive. EVERYTIME something new is brought up, people come out of the woodwork saying what a dumb idea it is and how it is going to affect Emporia in a bad way. I for one dont see it that way, sorry.

sciguy, where do you go to shop? Topeka, KCMO? you ask
What happens to the economic health of the community if the production and professional jobs go away and are replaced by retail?
First, according to some there is no professional jobs in Emporia and there is no production in Emporia, So my guess is that people from out of town may come here to shop in those retail places. I would also disagree with you, I think "retail jobs" do sustain "retail businesses" Why? because when you make 10 bucks an hour, you cant afford to go to topeka or KC, those are the people who shop at home, NOT the professionals.

Posted by sciguy (anonymous) on August 30, 2008 at 11:06 p.m. (Suggest removal)

That's quite an economic plan you have there, LifeGoesOn. Support Emporia businesses by ensuring a population so poor they can't afford anything else.

There are some professional and creative jobs in Emporia. There used to be more--such as when Birch and its predecessor employed a sizable computer programming staff here.

Relying on retail only, or even retail and manufacturing, is a losing proposition for any city in Emporia's position. We need a diversified economy that is capable of weathering difficult economic conditions and that employs a wide variety of lower and higher skilled jobs and professional positions. Retail and manufacturing (whatever hasn't been moved to Mexico/China) can be a part of that economy, but they can not be the foundation of it.

Fifty years ago, a heavy manufacturing economy made sense here--but it hasn't made sense in almost thirty years. It is time for Emporia to refocus on building the economy that will take it through the 21st century--not to try and rebuild the economy that took it through the 20th.

Posted by LifeGoesOn (anonymous) on September 1, 2008 at 8:38 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Ok, I'll just sit back with the rest of you and wait for Emporia to become a ghost town, because you seem to KNOW what Emporia needs and Emporia isn't getting it or does not have it, so I guess it's on it's way out. Thats to bad, I really figured we would be around a while, but alas, we are doomed.....I guess I never realized that retailing and manufacturing are bad for the economy and the only thing that keeps a city afloat is high skilled jobs and professional positions. I'll be sure to tell those who worked at tyson all those years, that their jobs did nothing to promote a healthly economic base for Emporia. I do have to wonder then why everyone was so worried when they went under then?

Posted by momus (anonymous) on September 1, 2008 at 12:48 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Life,

Development generally isn't an all or nothing proposition. By saying "no" to incentives for a Lowe's development, the community isn't saying "no" to every development proposed anytime in the future. What I hear people saying is that the net effect of this proposed development is negative. More stores will close than will be opened. More jobs will be lost than gained. It doesn't make much sense to pay someone to put the community in a negative position. And, frankly, it sends a horrible message to small businesses in the community. Most small businesses would never qualify for TIF or TDD, and never received huge incentives to open their doors. If a multi-billion dollar corporation wants to come here, let them, but they can pay for it on their own. And yes, the people with access to information (or those that care to do a little research) do know what we need through use of leakage studies. When comparing the sales of a Lowe’s to the leakage from that category, it would be like trying to kill a fly with a sledge hammer.

Posted by LifeGoesOn (anonymous) on September 1, 2008 at 2:20 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Momus, I grow tried of this debate, although I may agree with much of what you have said, I have to disagree with your statement "the community isn't saying "no" to every development proposed anytime in the future"

The way I read these forums is just exactly that, everyone is always saying No to whatever comes along for one reason or another. I mean for crying out loud, A new pizza joint wanted to open up and all I read is OH NO! not another pizza joint, or we dont need another pizza joint. Well maybe we dont, but So What! it's new business, it's new jobs (for those with none) it's more tax money. I guess I dont give a hoot if we get a Lowes or not, that has Never been my point, I say it over and over for those who Choose to hear it. We need new business, retail, mfg or whatever, It makes no difference which comes first, the other will follow. Some may disagree with that but I dont really care, thats my opinion, like it or not

Posted by create (anonymous) on September 1, 2008 at 4:49 p.m. (Suggest removal)

LIfe,

I don't think everybody has said No to new business. Everyone supported the new apartment complex going in downtown where the train sits. Small business space is a feature on the ground floor so that's a shot in the arm. Also, when Peking Express announced, many supported that. I think people might be a bit tired of all the pizza places. Face it, there are a plethora of pizza joints in Emporia.

The thing about more and more new retail establishments is that there is only so much spending money to go around. With each new place, that amount is diluted. Before long, nobody is making it.

I read a good article online that concluded that small cities like us need to seek diversity in order to bolster our economy. What kind of diversity? Here's how a small city in Ohio views diversity. Except for the airport, we have the necessary features.

"Grove City is diversifying its economy with an international outlook and is actively seeking medical, financial and technological companies. Convenient access to interstates, airports and major shipping services make Grove City ideal for any company striving to be a part of the global economy."

Clearly, Grove City understands the need for income producing entities.

Posted by LifeGoesOn (anonymous) on September 1, 2008 at 5:40 p.m. (Suggest removal)

"Small business space is a feature on the ground floor" Are these not retail?

"The thing about more and more new retail establishments is that there is only so much spending money to go around. With each new place, that amount is diluted. Before long, nobody is making it."

These two comments make it hard for me to understand just what people are saying. One one hand, small retail is ok, on the other larger retail isn't?

another question, do you think our city leader are Not actively seeking medical, financial and technological companies or having convenient access to interstates?

Please explain to me what you mean by "financial and technological companies" also it seems to me that Emporia is trying to have convenient access to interstates and many just keep complaining about all the work thats being done on our highways around Emporia. Our city laders go to conferences to gather information and get chewed out on here for doing that, people saying what a waste of tax money, they try getting studies done to gather info, and get chewed for wasteing tax money, It just seems to me that no matter what our elected leaders do, people on these forums bitch about it.

Posted by LifeGoesOn (anonymous) on September 1, 2008 at 9:26 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Another question for anyone to answer. Why has there been over six hundred votes as to where to put a Lowes on the Gazette poll? That six hundred plus people seem to out weigh the 5 or 6 on this forum who seem to be against it altogether.

Posted by momus (anonymous) on September 2, 2008 at 8:39 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Life,

Notice that there isn't an option on the poll which reads "Lowe's should not locate in Emporia". I'm hoping that's an oversight by the Gazette, but I'm guessing it's not.

There is a difference between the small retail store fronts that Create referenced and a big box in the NW section of town. From a development standpoint, we should encourage retail that addresses market leakage to the extent that it covers (not overwhelms) said leakage. The other types of jobs that create referenced: tech, medical, financial and I'll add batch manufacturing are areas that build our population and median income. Thus, we build more customers into the system that can support more retail. Retail follows customers which follow jobs. That's the formula.

Posted by LifeGoesOn (anonymous) on September 2, 2008 at 10:19 a.m. (Suggest removal)

tech, medical, financial are areas that build our population and median income, What would these be and how many jobs will they bring with them? as many as new retail stores?

Others have said "We need a diversified economy that employs higher skilled jobs and professional positions.

Are these " tech,medical and financial businesses going to provide higher skilled jobs and professional positions?
Sounds to me as if your saying they will only provide median income positions. This is where I start getting confused.

Either everybody wants professional positions to bring in retail or they want median incomes jobs to bring in retail, but no one wants retail jobs that may produce in median income jobs along with some professional upper management positions.

Lastly, I would concede, you ae probably correct on the gazette poll thing, it just caught my eye, I thought that it was strange that 600 plus would vote on a poll as where to put it, yet only a handful would make posts on the subject opposing it.

Posted by momus (anonymous) on September 2, 2008 at 12:16 p.m. (Suggest removal)

The retail jobs most likely won't raise median income, and, if we are talking about big box stores, they typically result in a net decrease in jobs overall.

Retail does not lead to industry or professional jobs. Industrial, technical or professional positions create demand for retail, which retailers seeking to produce profit generally fill.

Posted by create (anonymous) on September 2, 2008 at 3:46 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Lifes asks,"...tech, medical, financial are areas that build our population and median income, What would these be and how many jobs will they bring with them? as many as new retail stores?"

A new big box retail store would employ about 40-50 people, most making about $8 an hour. This is not median income. The management positions would be brought in.

It would take a long time to list all the technology based jobs available, but I mean things like computer hardware or software manufacturing for one, or even a plastics plant that manufactures pc housing units. Many more than 40 people could be employed certainly at more than $8 an hour.

There are companies that manufacture medical equipment and all of its components, even teeny ones. More than 40 jobs there at more than $8 an hour. In the financial area, I'm thinking of what happened to a town in Delaware when all the major credit card companies decided to locate there. Their population exploded. Lots of Tekkies needed in the financial sector too. It just grows exponentially much more than a big box store would as far as employment is concerned.

Most of Lowe's centers are located in large areas. Only recently have they begun to want to build in smaller areas like ours. They've run out of room, haven't they? My question is this. Of the smaller areas they have built in, have they met their sales projections as far as TIFs are concerned? What if they don't?

Why didn't Hill's Pet Food get a Tax Incentive Package? If I were Hill's, I'd ask for one now.

At the expense of sounding like I'm running off at the mouth, I will simply close this for now. I hope I made myself clear with regard to what I meant by those different types of jobs. Of course I couldn't possibly list them all.

Momus, I appreciate your comments.

Posted by Weltha (anonymous) on September 2, 2008 at 3:47 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Looking at poll about 60% of people voting think the old Big Lots sight would the best bet for Lowe's. I think I ask on another forum about it why that place wouldn't work and still haven't been told why. Can someone on here tell me why it wouldn't work? I'm not trying to cause strife I truely would like to know why not.

Posted by LifeGoesOn (anonymous) on September 2, 2008 at 5:11 p.m. (Suggest removal)

computer hardware or software manufacturing for one, or even a plastics plant like you speak of, are not going to come to Emporia kansas, All thise things can and are made cheaper in china or overseas, aint going to happen here. Please tell me what town in Delaware you talk about?

.For companies that manufacture medical equipment , we have one here already, I believe BPE on Lockerman rd makes several different medical supplies, ships all over the world, they employee about 15 people at maybe 13 to 20 bucks an hour. My point is many of those jobs "that are to many to list" that you want here in Emporia, Aint going to come here. this town may attract some mfg jobs, dog food,hopkins,tyson, etc and they all pay 10 to 15 bucks an hour, but Emporia is not going to get or even attract things like major credit card companies, big computer software companies or the like. I think it's nice to dream a big dream but you need to understand its a dream not reality.

Posted by slipandslide (anonymous) on September 2, 2008 at 11:31 p.m. (Suggest removal)

weltha, check and see if they get more incentives to build a new building versus rehabing an old one. maybe lowes was more interested in the location because of the walmart and fastfood joints, i dont know but that may be the reason they want 24 th. i hope they dont pull out of town when the tax breaks run out. emporia is between a rock and a hard spot, not enough people and not a high enough median income to attract the stores that are appealing. i dont know what the solution will be if there will ever be one, but i liked the smaller stores and the character they add to the town. why not try something different to attract folks, like build up the hospital enough to make emporia known for its health care, something that people will come here for or bring concerts and bands here as an attraction. i dont see emporia having any major growth spurts, but time will tell on that.

Posted by create (anonymous) on September 3, 2008 at 7:01 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Ok Life, you know it all. I'll just give up and crawl into my cage and let other people become my gatekeepers and forget that this entire country was built by people who could dream, and dream big.

Slipandslide, good idea on building up the hospital and medical care venue. The medical area is one I suggested we explore. It just doesn't have to be manufacturing medical products. There have been other towns in our country that have concentrated on developing the medical facility aspect and have been quite successful. It's not something that can be outsourced to China or India, that's for sure. Building a larger and better medical facility is one of those "if you build it they will come" great ideas. But, shut my mouth, there I go dreaming again! Let me get back in my cage.

Posted by LifeGoesOn (anonymous) on September 3, 2008 at 7:22 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Create. you can say I told ya so, when those big major credit card companies or those big computer assembly companies come to Emporia. I know I've seen so many of that kind of place wanting to come here and all.
The county may have been built by people who dream, that doesnt change the fact that just because I dream I can fly by flapping my arms, that I will fly. I hate to say it but you seem to have to big of expectations for Emporia. So be my guest and stay in dreamland while I choose to be here in the real world.

Posted by create (anonymous) on September 3, 2008 at 7:50 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Those were just some of my suggestions in the area of banking and technology. There are tons of others in those and other realms of economic development, too many to list.

My expectations are too big are they? I remember men saying that exact thing when we women began to shake the foundation for equal opportunities. I remember and honor Martin Luther King. But you prefer to insult my intelligence so like I said, I'll just stay here in my cage and watch while you people with low expectations for Emporia take the helm.

Like Hell I will!

Posted by Weltha (anonymous) on September 3, 2008 at 8:25 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Thanks giving ideas slip. I bet your right on with the incentive thing.

Posted by momus (anonymous) on September 3, 2008 at 8:41 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Actually Life, technology firms are based, in part, on the creativity of company owners regardless of the community size. For example, one a large law enforcement software database companies is based in Pittsburg, Kansas. We most likely cannot lure a massive Toyota plant to Emporia, but we can (if we choose to) become a more entrepreneurially friendly city. However, that friendliness needs to occur across the board. We have to decide as a city if we are going to support entrepreneurial businesses (even the ones we CURRENTLY have) through creating a supportive environmental structure as opposed to creating incentives that generally support only large corporate entities.

I believe that entrepreneurial business development is a battle that we can win as a community. This development would offer more diversity in the workforce, improve the median income, efficiently add more money in the local economy and fill retail and restaurant niches more efficiently (without overwhelming the market). However, from speaking with local small businesses, I can tell you that many think the city of Emporia is anything but entrepreneurial friendly. And, I'm not just talking about elected officials. We need a well defined development strategy, and we need to let our businesses know what that strategy is so they can make some decisions. If entrepreneurial businesses are not the focus of Emporia, and instead we are focusing on corporate chains, I know of about three businesses off the top of my head that have the opportunity to pick up and move. Because their business is their livelihood, the only descent thing to do as a community is to be honest about Emporia's priorities.

Posted by create (anonymous) on September 3, 2008 at 9:55 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Momus, thank you for your use of the many forms of "create" because diversity owes its beginnings to creativity.

In 1982, I read James Canton's Megatrends. In it, the words diversity and creativity were key terms. In fact, I remember reading about fantastic future concepts that boggled my mind. Today I am experiencing them. That was less than 30 years ago.

The key to future trends is a willingness to understand, accept, and implement change, even in a city of our size.

I agree with Momus. We need to be honest with those local businesses who stand to lose the most if we continue to focus on big box stores whose only real agenda is money, not service.

Posted by LifeGoesOn (anonymous) on September 3, 2008 at 10:45 a.m. (Suggest removal)

If your are talking about the law enforcement company called Afix techologies, INC. in Pittsburg Kansas, I wouldn’t call them a large law enforcement software database company by any means, they employee about 11 people all of median income positions.

Create, thanks for the history lesson.

Posted by slipandslide (anonymous) on September 3, 2008 at 10:52 a.m. (Suggest removal)

the down town needs to be built up, the apartments will help with that. why cant there be more businesses on the east side?

Posted by create (anonymous) on September 3, 2008 at 8:27 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Of course Afix is not a large company if they only employ about 11 people, but 11 people of median income, now that's a different story compared to 30 or so making minimum wage or a little above.

Posted by momus (anonymous) on September 4, 2008 at 12:24 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Thank you create, I should have been clearer (as evidenced by the horrible grammar in a couple of my sentences in an earlier post, "let he who is without grammar check bag on the first post";) ). My point was Afix is a large business for that particular, growing, niche industry. As technology, security and law enforcement continue to intersect; companies like Afix have an opportunity to grow.

Almost every city in the country wants to land the "big dog" industrial development. When we are continually competing with larger cities for fewer and fewer industrial projects, we will continue to encourage a no job growth, no median income growth local economy. By making the city more entrepreneurially friendly and focused we can diversify our local economy with several businesses that have growth potential. We can also encourage the development of professional support jobs which benefit from smaller companies that can't necessarily in-source accounting, marketing and other activities.

Again, thank you create for agreeing with my assertion that we need to be honest with our local businesses. We have two clear paths before us, and the least our leadership can do is honestly tell the people of Emporia which path they have chosen so our businesses can adapt their plans.

Posted by create (anonymous) on September 4, 2008 at 5:48 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Momus, my argument is not with you. I apologize, I should have addressed my comments to LifeGoesOn since that is to whom I was responding. LifeGoesOn said, "I wouldn’t call them a large law enforcement software database company by any means, they employee about 11 people all of median income positions."

My point was that Afix may not be large, but even a small company that employs 11 people of median income is a boost for the local economy compared to a larger company like a big box store that pays only minimum wage. Also, in many cases, big retail outfits limit hours to less than 40 so they don't have to offer benefits either.

And I agree wholeheartedly that these small companies have opportunities to grow, and that they in turn are responsible for giving other companies the chance to grow and be profitable too. My own daughter's company was like that. She no longer has the time to do her own accounting so gives the business to someone else who is in business to do just that. It's a back-scratching festival!

If they are creative in their business plans, the sky is the limit for start ups. That is what a community wants to attract. Potential like that is a gold mine. You said it.

Posted by LifeGoesOn (anonymous) on September 5, 2008 at 7:03 a.m. (Suggest removal)

create, 11 jobs at median (average) income boost the local economy, if that statment is true, then 30 to 40 jobs at $8 to $10 per hour ALSO boost the local econmy. Seems your saying those who dont make 16 to 20 bucks an hour or more, have no impact on taxes or the economy, is this what your saying???

I tried to make a point that Emporia is not going to draw those Large companies like major credit card companies or Large medical supply companies like those you mentioned, we are not big enough city, Momus came back with and implied that we can, he/she gave an example: quote "one a large law enforcement software database company is based in Pittsburg ks"

I only responded by saying 11 people in an office is not a "large law enforcement software database company"

I was not saying we cant draw in THIS kind of business

I do agree with momus when they said "making the city more entrepreneurially friendly we encourge growth" I have also said all along, any new business small or large is good for Emporia, you and others sometimes want to pick and choose to your taste, I dont, I say bring in a small pizza joint and/or a large lumber yard, it makes no difference, jobs are jobs and any pay is better than No Pay, it all finds it's way into the economy. the kid that mows a lawn will spend his money on gas, pop, video games etc., and he may make only 8 bucks an hour, his money is just as inportant to Emporia as a teachers salary

Posted by momus (anonymous) on September 5, 2008 at 8:23 a.m. (Suggest removal)

But, again, the NET impact is being ignored. If we gain 50 jobs in a Lowe’s, and loose 75 jobs throughout the rest of the community, we had a NET loss of 25 jobs. If we have a new pizza joint that comes to town in a saturated pizza market, and the new business takes out an existing business with a zero sum gain in employment and sales, the benefit is??? These empty buildings create actual blight (as opposed to the greenfield "blight" the city plans on using TIF for). The blighted buildings continually decrease in value and valuation, which depletes our property tax base while simultaneously making Emporia look awful.

By your reasoning, if I gave you $75 and you gave me $100 in an "even" trade, you would say that you were $75 richer when in actuality... But, if anyone wants to demonstrate the above cash exchange scenario, just let me know. I'll make time ;).

And, I'll say it again Life... The community needs to make a choice. Sales are a relatively fixed pie (a relatively small pie in Emporia's case). So, when it comes to retail and restaurants you can have very few, extremely large national chains, or you can have several smaller independents. You can't have both. Which strategy to you advocate?

Posted by create (anonymous) on September 5, 2008 at 9:12 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Amen, Momus!

Sorry Life, your theory with regard to wages does not take into effect the larger picture. Studies show that Medicaid costs for uninsured or underinsured employees is high. Big box stores are notorious for either not offering health benefits to hourly wagers, or requiring at least one year before that benefit can be taken advantage of. Often the cost of premiums are too high for someone making $8 an hour.

Further, big box stores don't come into a market to share it, they come in to grab all the revenue. As a result, the vitality of local businesses is undermined and more derelict store fronts are the result.

Something else is lost too. Local businesses buy more local goods and services because they have no headquarters elsewhere. When local business buys local goods and services, a much larger percentage of their profits stay within the local economy.

I believe the city should provide us with an economic impact statement with regard to Lowe's.

By the way, I hope you will take the time to compare prices offered by such places as Sutherland's and Hill's Appliance with the big guys in Topeka. After doing a comparison, I bought my refrigerator from Hill's a few months ago. No big box in Topeka could compare. Besides, Hill's delivers and services. And did you know that everyone of these local little guys will order whatever you want? They have for me.

I think you're selling Emporia short with what is already here.

Posted by netloafer (anonymous) on September 5, 2008 at 9:43 a.m. (Suggest removal)

In last night's Gazette, Chuck Grimwold from Mark II estimated that Mark II would have a 25% decline in sales when the Lowe's store is built. Sutherland's, Waters, Hill's, Sears, and Guion's haven't given any estimates of impact.

The matter of impact, or potential impact, to current businesses or Lowe's competitors is the key question that the city and its leaders should answer before proceeding.

Posted by neighbor (anonymous) on September 5, 2008 at 12:45 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I tried to open that story last here on the site and it would not open. Its gone today. I would have liked to see what folks had to say about Chuck's comments on the expected effects to his business. Having choices and options are good for the consumers. Having to compete with large scale or big box operations is often catastrophic for small locally owned businesses who cannot buy their wares at bulk prices like National chains can do. I agreed 100% with his comment that Lowes should not be given tifs etc. They have made billions and can easily afford to make the changes without help nor special taxation on their sales to pay for it.

Posted by netloafer (anonymous) on September 5, 2008 at 1:27 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Neighbor

I also tried finding it on the website, but couldn't.

I cited the print edition.

It was a front page story in the print edition. I don't know why it isn't archived on the website. I treid by search under Chuck's name, Mark II, etc. Nothing. If others have search ideas I'd welcome them. I think the article would make for good, healthy discussion.

Posted by neighbor (anonymous) on September 5, 2008 at 3:27 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Mark II has survived Sutherlands, Home Lumber, Waters, and every other competitor that has shown up in Emporia in the last 30 yrs-40yrs. I'm afraid Lowes will hurt them though. Lowes seems to have much stronger business ties with local contractors than the others have had. M-2 will keep alot of their contractor customers, but I believe a 25% loss of their customer base is wishful thinking. Lowes also provide contracted installers for alot of the stuff they sell(at a price of course), M2 only gives you a list of contractors to contact on your own. To me, Lowes is modeled after Wally world, their store set ups and even their shelving resemble the smiley face giant. I get angry pulling into Wallyworld's lot, I can't see me spending alot of time at a Lowes either.

Posted by LifeGoesOn (anonymous) on September 5, 2008 at 4:20 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Momus, you say "when it comes to retail and restaurants you can have very few, extremely large national chains, or you can have several smaller independents. You can't have both. Which strategy to you advocate?"

I disagree and all the proof I need is to drive thru topeka or wichita, manhattan, I see Many Large Chains and Many small independants, both retail and restaurants.

you also say, " the NET impact is being ignored. If we gain 50 jobs in a Lowe’s, and loose 75 jobs throughout the rest of the community, we had a NET loss of 25 jobs"

The big word in You comment is (IF).
I dont see 75 jobs being lost for 50 gained, even if Mark II goes under.

Create, you say "Big box stores are notorious for either not offering health benefits to hourly wagers, or requiring at least one year before that benefit can be taken advantage of. Often the cost of premiums are too high for someone making $8 an hour"

Ever check Bluestem farm and Ranch (hometown employeer) many of their employees work close to 39 hours a week at $8-$9 hr with No benefits and it sure isnt a big box store.
or how about Every hometown independant restuarant, you honestly think those employees are getting even $8 hr and benefits? There are MANY hometown (not big box) stores that offer No benefits here already, someplace like Lowes is not any different. Give me a break.

Posted by momus (anonymous) on September 6, 2008 at 3:40 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Life,

Please talk to any development official in any city you cited. The ratio of independent businesses versus chains have dramatically inverted over the last twenty years. Notice also that the smallest community you mentioned (Manhattan) has a trade area population five times larger than Emporia's. You have roughly $268-290 million that you can slice up any way you want. A few huge national chains, or several smaller independents; those are your choices.

The "IF" concerning job loss was a scenario based off of national studies concerning the effect of big box businesses on job growth/loss. I can cite national peer reviewed studies that show for every one big box chain job gained, 1.5 to 3 jobs are lost. That's not an "if" it’s a "when". And, the jobs lost aren't just within the same industry. When you look at local businesses, they are more dependant on local services like accounting, banking, local legal services, and local advertisers. They use local construction (unlike the outside construction firms that will be used for this proposed development) and support local causes at a higher percentage of gross revenues than do big boxes.

Now, I'm prepared to start linking studies that prove what I'm telling you is true. We can do that, but like one five year old said to the other "if I show you mine"... So, be prepared to respond in kind if that's where you want to take this. Otherwise, it looks like you don't agree with my statements, create's statements, netloafer's statements and a host of other posters statements simply because you don't WANT them to be true. But, I'm sorry, they are true. I know it would be easier to believe that we live in a world without net effects or consequences for actions, but we don't.

Posted by LifeGoesOn (anonymous) on September 6, 2008 at 8 a.m. (Suggest removal)

momus, Ok , so you have studies proving me wrong, you are right, create is right and loafer is right. Feel better?

Only one problem, ALL those cities I mentioned AND Emporia have CONTINUED TO GROW regardless of your studies. Look at the population 50 years ago, 40 and 30 years ago and even 15 years ago, they just keep getting bigger. granted some will have a loss from year to year because of certain new business coming to town,but IF you all look at the Big Picture (as I have been told to do) You will see growth. So to me it looks as if you create and loafer just want to disagree with me when there is plenty of proof to show different. One other thing, maybe you can tell me why, when the city does "studies" many like to say what a waste of time and money? and yet now "studies" seem to be what is being quoted. I think you create and net should run for office, maybe with your knowledge and wisdom the poor dumb people of Emporia can fullfill all the dreams and desires, have great professional jobs making 60 to 80 k a year.

Oh wait! Net tried that once, people didnt agree with him or his views, he lost the election. So maybe you and create can find a different third musketeer.

Posted by netloafer (anonymous) on September 6, 2008 at 9:34 a.m. (Suggest removal)

LifeGoesOn

I stand, bloodied but unbowed.

Create

What do you think? When does filing time expire?

Momus

You were hoping against hope. It was a valiant effort!

Posted by LifeGoesOn (anonymous) on September 6, 2008 at 10:18 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Net, Kind of hard to argue the fact that Emporia population continues to grow every decade isnt it. I cant say I totally disagree with your points, creates point and momus point. I can see what you are saying, but what i dont think you three understand is that when new business comes in, some will go out, That my friend is the way things are and have been for hundreds of years. Will we have empty buildings? sure. Will some lose jobs? sure.
it's called competition and progress, I lived here my entire life, watched Emporia grow no matter what new business came to town, Walmart showed up and Emporia still grew, Micky d's, arbys and the like showed up, Emporia still grew.

25 years ago, there was ONE new home out by the high school, Now there are Many plus two more schools, There use to be one mall now there is another strip mall to the south of it. Modines went under, yet now another new business is in it's place, diddies went under, yet the building has business in it not to mention Several new bisinesses out on the east side of Emporia. None of these things were here years ago and yet Emporia still survives and grows. I dont think someplace like Lowes or any other Big Chain is going to stop Emporia from Growing. It only seems that you create and momus think our poor little city wont survive if some big box store comes in, Thats where we disagree, Emporia will survive, more people will come,population Will increase which means more taxes will come in and more streets will be built more service type jobs created and the list goes on and on. So there is no freaking way you or anybody else will make me believe that Emporia is going to loose jobs,taxes and businesses. MAYBE in the short run, but NOT in the long run.

Posted by create (anonymous) on September 6, 2008 at 11:04 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Netloafer,

Here's what I think. LifeGoesOn just wants to go shopping at big box stores and doesn't care how much damage is done to local businesses who have spent years supporting the local economy by spending their profits locally. Let's just give him the marbles, they're all new and shiny.

I still want an impact statement from the city.

Posted by slipandslide (anonymous) on September 6, 2008 at 11:17 a.m. (Suggest removal)

will they leave town as soon as the tax benefits end?

Posted by LifeGoesOn (anonymous) on September 6, 2008 at 6:11 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Create, glad to here what you think, fact still remains, Emporia Grows in spite of you.

Posted by momus (anonymous) on September 7, 2008 at 5:14 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Life,

The "growth" that you keep talking about has little to nothing to do with retail big box development. The sprawl you talk about has some causal links. That's why I wanted to shift this discussion to include actual studies. We have some people in this community that make the faulty assumption that big box retail development CAUSES growth in communities because they see big box development in growing cities. The truth is, and if you read objective peer reviewed studies you can see this for yourself, that big box developments are the EFFECT of growth. Communities keep sprawling, people keep reproducing, but the "growth" you keep talking about isn't caused by retailers. Retailers don't create customers, they take advantage of pre-existing markets. In the case of big boxes, they seek to dominate markets and eliminate competition. Ever wonder why our Wal-Mart has higher prices than Wal-Marts in larger cities? The same thing, running people out of business and then loading a price increase, will happen here.

I know, I can't tell you what you know. But, please try and inform yourself beyond what you think you see. Otherwise, we will have more people confusing cause and effect wishing those stupid polar bears would quit drowning themselves so the polar ice caps will quit melting.

Posted by slipandslide (anonymous) on September 7, 2008 at 6:32 p.m. (Suggest removal)

so does that mean smaller businesses will leave, meaning average incomes will go down but prices will go up? anyone who is still interested in this topic should let their opinions be heard instead of posting on here. i still think a community that has alot of small local buisesses is stronger than one that has alot of big boxes. maybe one of the perks of living in emporia is the fact that its a small town and its an easy drive to the larger towns that offer entertainment, and a variety of restaurants.i know people who live here and drive to wichita for the health care. those who chose to live in small towns also chose to give up some of the conveniences of the big cities, so anyone living here should be willing to accept that we dont have all the perks of a big city. myself, i dont like driving far for entertainment, recreation or health care

Posted by netloafer (anonymous) on September 7, 2008 at 7:20 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Slipandslide

Some of us have talked to city leaders. But, the strategy has been to attract big box retail and low wage manufacturers.

Momus

Good luck. Your analysis is insightful, sensible, and worthwhile. Unfortunately you're bucking a real headwind. This all reminds me a bit of a time when my oldest son came home from school one day claiming he could run 45 MPH. I didn't say anything at first,I just rolled my eyes. he got upset and told me I didn't believe him. I tried to avoid discussion, but he would have none of it. We finally decided a contest was in order. He was to go outside, he was to get a head start running, I was to get in the car. He was then to motion me when he was believed he was at 45 MPH. I started the car and he started running. He motioned me and I started driving down the street. I passed him at about 30 MPH like he was standing still. A block later when he got in the car the told me he was angry because I'd cheated. He claimed I was going at least 60.

Incidentally, the population of Emporia has declined since 2000. The poverty rate in Emporia is 17,9%, almost double the Kansas average of 9%. Median family incomes are signifigantly lower than the Kansas average. Those are U.S. Census Bureau statistics. There haven't been any population studies of Emporia published since Tyson downsized, so I can't say what the population impact of that will be. I'm not sure it will be good in terms of population growth.

Posted by LifeGoesOn (anonymous) on September 7, 2008 at 9:09 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Momus says
"The truth is, and if you read objective peer reviewed studies you can see this for yourself, that big box developments are the EFFECT of growth."

Net says
"the population of Emporia has declined since 2000"

So whats the truth, does Lowes want to come here because of growth or because we have had a decline in growth?

I know big box does not (cause) growth, what I'm saying is Big Box IS growth, it IS going to happen, It Has happened and it will Continue to happen, regardless of the studies you keep talking about. Thats how the United States work, Thats why you see fewer and fewer small farms, The mighty dollar gets what the mighty dollar wants. ya may not like it but to be frank, there aint a damn thing You can do about it. Big Box is the way of the future, soon as some of you get yourselves out of the 50's you will see that, I dont have to like it either, but thats the way it's going to be. If you cant compete then your on your way out. So sad to bad. Live aint fair.

Posted by netloafer (anonymous) on September 8, 2008 at 5:28 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Momus

Somehow I knew that was coming.

Posted by create (anonymous) on September 8, 2008 at 7:53 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I could see it coming too.

Slipandslide asked a great question: "will they leave town as soon as the tax benefits end?" Lowe's is just one of the big box stores that has left communities in a lurch when they have abandoned their buildings and gone looking for better pickings.

We recently heard that Starbucks is eliminating 100 outlets all over the country. The fact is many chains are now downsizing. "Linens N' Things is shuttering 120 stores. Ann Taylor is closing 117. Home Depot has abandoned 15 locations. The International Council of Shopping Centers has forecast that a total of 6,500 chain store closures this year."

My sister has worked at an Office Depot for several years as an assistant manager. She called just this past Saturday to tell me that today, Monday, is her last day because the store is shutting down. Employees got the news on Friday. How about that for big box human relations? Only those who stay on to pack up and clean up will receive their severance pay. Gotta love that Office Depot. Another shuttered building on the retail landscape.

Unfortunately for the tax payer, many in city governments have adopted the big-box mentality offering all kinds of tax advantages and beefed-up infrastructure. This can only be construed as government favoritism.

Posted by momus (anonymous) on September 8, 2008 at 8:13 a.m. (Suggest removal)

When you don't have local ownership you often don't have local commitment. It's pretty easy for a suit in a corporate office to hand down a closure notification for a struggling store, while a lot of entrepreneurial based businesses look for creative ways to keep the business a float until the economy improves.

As far as Life's comments go, I was hoping that I would get a different response, but I wasn't optimistic. When you finally decide that jobs will be lost, businesses will close, infrastructure expenses supported by taxes increase, property tax revenues on abandoned properties decrease and blight is created throughout the community "it's the wave of the future" is about the only response you have left. But, if you want to talk about future trends, development analysts will point to "life style centers". Life style centers are walkable environments with an eclectic mix of a variety of stores, restaurants and service based businesses clustered in a walkable area. In other words, an artificial downtown for communities that essentially destroyed their downtown to support the last "wave of the future". So, I guess we could be futuristic in our development approach AND support local entrepreneurs, but nahhhh, lets just give a bunch of tax breaks to a multi-billion dollar corporation to royally screw up the traffic, create blight and put mom & pops out of business so we have less local shopping choices. That sounds better.

Oh, and one more thing, Lowe’s hasn't said they want to come here yet. A DEVELOPER has essentially said "if you build all this stuff for me, they will come". I'm not aware of a Lowe’s placement officer doing an Emporia study, are you? I mean, the Modine building was rezoned specifically for a Home Depot or Lowe’s & they didn’t come, and Emporia is worse of f economically now than we were then.

Posted by LifeGoesOn (anonymous) on September 8, 2008 at 10:43 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Nice to see net and Create are smart AND can see into the future now! WOW I'm impressed
Momus, I can see you and others want what is best for Emporia, I can appreciate that, and say more power to ya, only problem is that, people with more money and more clout than you will dictate what Emporias future has in store for it. IF Lowes or target or any other big box store comes in, those who cant compete will close their doors, is it to bad, Sure. It may not be the kind of progress you want but that’s life, Society wants low prices, fast and easy. That’s why big box stores do so well. Is it fair to the little guy? Nope but that is the way it is.

Oh by the way Create and net, I find it hard to believe you have not ever shopped at Walmart or Staples or ate at applebees. All are big box places. So looks to me as if your just as much of the problem you keep complaining about

Posted by Renegade (anonymous) on September 8, 2008 at 3:08 p.m. (Suggest removal)

LifeGoesOn..."Ditto" to everything you said. :-)...

I love WalMart, and I'll be first in line if we open a Target or a K-Mart.. My husband and I will be loyal to Sutherlands,because they have given us great customer service, but, even they don't have everything that a Lowes or Home Depot can offer Emporia.
If we want to grow as a community, keep our youth here, and bring in new families, and encourage the younger families we have now, to stay in Emporia, we'd better start making some changes... soon.
Of course, there are good changes, and bad changes, but, NO Change shouldn't be an option.
Just a side note....It's probably going to cost the taxpayers a bundle, in some cases, for new roads, and sewers, etc., but, I just saw we're already 50 million in debt in Emporia...so, what does it matter...we can't afford to live here now.

Posted by momus (anonymous) on September 8, 2008 at 4:10 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Life,

You stated that big boxes were unavoidable future for Emporia, and then chastised Net and Create for being able to "see into the future now! WOW". I'll give you the opportunity to explain the difference in clavoiancy between opposing sides.

The big difference in the shopping examples that you cited (Staples and Applebees) is that we didn't pay either one to come here. There is a difference between a company locating in Emporia, and a company being paid to locate in Emporia, especially when considering the impacts we've been blogging about.

Posted by create (anonymous) on September 8, 2008 at 4:14 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Life, sure I've shopped at Walmart for general dry goods. I just don't happen to spend all my shopping time or dollars there. But as a general rule, I buy groceries at Reebles like I always have because I like what they do for the community and they have always sought to stock special requests. I don't care for Applebee's food so I don't go there.

Posted by LifeGoesOn (anonymous) on September 8, 2008 at 5:16 p.m. (Suggest removal)

momus, the comment about seeing into the future was because they stated they knew what my response would be before I even posted it.

Create you say "LifeGoesOn just wants to go shopping at big box stores and doesn't care how much damage is done to local businesses who have spent years supporting the local economy" Then you admit to shopping Walmart? You must be one of those, do as I say not as I do people.

Posted by netloafer (anonymous) on September 9, 2008 at 6 a.m. (Suggest removal)

The proof of the pudding is in the taste.

Create

We are clairvoyant, aren't we? If only we'd known. We had the pahtways to riches and wound up being your average American making your average wage. We could have been rich beyond our wildest clairvoyant dreams. How did we miss it? We probably need to go back to Hogwart's for some remedial training.

Posted by create (anonymous) on September 9, 2008 at 9 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Time will tell. We get chastised for quoting studies, accused of hypocrisy for shopping Wal Mart, reproached for making educated guesses about the future. We must never, never rely on research again. Hogwart's it is. And with a hint of possible train service in Emporia's future, surely we'll be able to find that special gate. Nine and three-quarters was it? LOL

Posted by methusla (anonymous) on September 12, 2008 at 10:16 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I would like to ask a question and see if I can get a viable answer.
Does anyone have any kind of viable proposal for bringing well paying specialty, technical or manufacturing jobs to Emporia that will pay well ?
Just stop and think of how many specialty, technical and manufacturing and other jobs that have been lost to foreign countries that do not pay their labor well, ie, China, Mexico, Korea, Indonesia, India, Pakistan just to name a few. How do you propose to attract the type of jobs that you all are talking about that will pay $12, $15, $20 per hr or more when most of these companies can locate in a country other than the US and pay a lot less for labor?
The simple fact of economics is, for instance lets say a company has to pay its workers $25 per hour to build a car and this company employs 25,000 workers, what kind of price do you think the company is going to have to put on each car in order to turn a profit, $15,000, $25,000, $30,000, now if this same company located its manufacturing facility in one of the countries I mentioned above and had to pay their workers $4 per hour or week and could charge less for their cars but at the same time sell more cars because of the lower price, what do you thilnk that car company or any company for that matter is going to do ?
I also believe that Emporia cannot support any more retail business at the present time, however again I ask does anyone have a viable, workable plan to attract a company of some kind that will bring with it good paying jobs for Emporians.
I also believe that the American worker that demands and is demanding to be paid a wage far above their abilities and jobs are going to succeed in pricing themselves out of work and the workplace, I know that the cost of everyday necessities has gone thru the roof, but todays prices are the result of the uncontrolled greed of the beaurocrats and the wealthy.

Posted by create (anonymous) on September 13, 2008 at 9:23 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Methusla, I too have similar questions. We must admit that large scale manufacturing that will employ large numbers will be a poor suggestion because jobs like that go overseas where labor costs are low. Even with shipping, manufacturers can still save in the long run.

Perhaps a suggestion for manufacturing would be to stick to something that cannot be shipped. One answer to that is meat processing but we know what happens when processors try to cheat on the labor front. But I'd best be careful of thinking in terms of fresh meat when it is all too possible to freeze it for processing elsewhere. They do it with seafood all the time.

I believe we should employ the services of a think tank. We have a university here. Surely we can pay for the services of a think tank and keep the money at home rather than send the money to Texas like we did with the Buxton study.

Posted by methusla (anonymous) on September 14, 2008 at 10:51 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I was just reading thru some of the posts including my own and just had a thought pop into my head about industries and jobs, let me air my thought and see what some people might think about it.
Since almost everyone agrees that America needs to become energy independent and needs to develope alternate fuels and since Kansas is located pretty much in the center of the U.S. and there are about 15 states surrounding Kansas that are some of the if not the best farm land in the country, why don't our local governments, City and County try and attract alternate fuel refinerys, since we are in the center of the nation I believe shipping costs of both raw products into and finished products out of the area would not be prohibitive and the economic boon to the work force and farmers would be, I believe tremendous.

Posted by create (anonymous) on September 15, 2008 at 11:36 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I can see where that might work, Methusla, but I don't know too much about bio-fuel manufacturing. I do know that the one plant near here is on hold for now. I'm sure someone else will probably have more info on why that is.

I heard Sarah Palin in Colorado say this morning that they believe private enterprise in the form of Mom and Pop operations will be the key. I'm afraid that Mom and Pop places won't be able to employ large numbers of people or offer them benefits. What about those who can't afford to open a business?

Posted by orlando (anonymous) on September 15, 2008 at 8:19 p.m. (Suggest removal)

There is a new type of ethanol plant being built in Iowa. It doesn't use the corn seed, but uses the cobs and stalks. Maybe we could look into that.

"Monday, 15 September, 2008 08:37 AM
EMMETSBURG, Iowa (AP) __ The new Iowa Power Fund board awarded a $14.75 million state construction grant in Emmetsburg to kick in money for a proposed ethanol plant.
The grant went to Poet Biorefining after a unanimous vote at a board meeting in Mount Vernon last week.
Unlike traditional ethanol plants which use corn kernels, the
Poet Biorefining facility would use corn cobs and stalks for a
cleaner fuel.
The plant will employ between 40 and 50 people. Construction is planned to begin next year, and plant will begin production in 2011.
The plant is estimated to cost about $300 million, with a total of $20 million contributed by the state. The federal government is adding another $80 million.
( Copyright 2008 - The Associated Press) "

Posted by jayhawker (anonymous) on September 15, 2008 at 11:07 p.m. (Suggest removal)

create: I know you to be an Obama supporter from some of your earlier posts. I am surprised to read that you are against Mom and Pop businesses, which have been the backbone of our economy for many generations. If you oppose Mom and Pops, are you saying that you would rather have giant corporations? I am mightily confused - isn't that the group that Senator Obama criticizes and wants to increase taxes upon? I'm afraid that we can't have our cake and eat it, too. I know that you are a reasonable person. Could it be that you oppose the Mom and Pops only because Sarah Palin supports them? I'll let you answer that one in your heart, and I know that you are a good hearted person.

Posted by create (anonymous) on September 16, 2008 at 9:01 a.m. (Suggest removal)

If it takes a giant corporation to employ large numbers of people, fine, but let them pay the taxes from which they like to take shelter. Yes, this is probably the kind of talk that drives many huge corporations overseas to begin with.

Jayhawker, I did not say that I OPPOSE Mom and Pops. What I did say is that Mom and Pop operations will not be the KEY to solving economic problems because they cannot employ large numbers of people. Sarah Palin says they are the KEY and gave personal examples that included her husband, a commercial fisherman, and her sister who recently opened a gas station. Show me the large numbers of people they employ and whether they offer benefits.

Can we go to the state of Michigan where unemployment is the highest in the nation and say to them that the KEY to solving their economic problems is to open Mom and Pop places?

I have nothing against Mom and Pop places. My father operated a business similar to Hill's Appliance when I was growing up so I was raised by a Mom and Pop operation. But he only employed two people. How many Mom and Pops do you know who can employ larger numbers and offer benefits too? My daughter has a small Mom and Pop, and although her business is growing, she can't employ more than three or four people and certainly can't pay benefits.

Perhaps we differ on our definition of Mom and Pop places.

No, I don't like Sarah Palin because she is nothing more than a cheerleader brought in to take attention away from discussion of issues. She is not informed enough to be second in command. But I did not let my dislike of her to get in the way of my opinion. You keep reading between the lines.

You keep telling me that you know me to be a good hearted person. Tell you what, Jayhawker, you need to know that I will be cancelling out your vote for McCain. How about that for heart? LOL

Posted by netloafer (anonymous) on September 16, 2008 at 9:31 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Create

I suspect there will be a lot of cancelling out going on in this election.

Small business is the real growth engine in our economy. It's not that we can't have big business.

Michigan is a real problem. American auto makers are in a difficult place. Part of the reason is strategic. They placed far too much emphasis on SUV's, trucks, etc. This wasn't a problem with rank and file. Executive management didn't read the tea leaves and their competitive leverage is slipping. And, tactically they are behind the eight ball. They're going to have to re-tool in order to catch up. That's going to require a huge investment in terms of time and capital.

How do we get them out of the hole they're in? It's going to be a long slog, using a combination of re-education for the 21st century, small business growth to assimilate as many displaced auto workers as possible, and a complete re-tooling of the automobile industry. What does that mean for the Big Three? Could it be consolidation? I don't know, but I do know that change is needed and change is coming.

Posted by create (anonymous) on September 16, 2008 at 10:15 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Then I must admit ignorance here to both you and Jayhawker. Now that is reasonable. Easy fellas, I can only cancel out one of your votes. :)

Define small business. Perhaps my view of Mom and Pop, and references to "small business" are quite different. Sarah Palin is the one who led with the term "Mom and Pop." Give me some examples of small business that will support wage earners with at least a health plan, maybe even a retirement account. I may have to capitulate here just because of a confusion of terms.

In the meantime, I must leave to go to Reebles now. Is Reebles a Mom and Pop? If Lowe's comes here, will they be a giant corporation or small business? That will keep us on topic. Later.

Posted by jayhawker (anonymous) on September 16, 2008 at 12:49 p.m. (Suggest removal)

create: You have it all wrong!! I am going to cancel YOUR vote!! That will let netloafer elect the next president. (You're right on the Mom and Pops, unless we get enough of them.)

Posted by create (anonymous) on September 16, 2008 at 1:42 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Hmmmph!

Posted by slipandslide (anonymous) on September 16, 2008 at 9:15 p.m. (Suggest removal)

there is at least one small business downtown and possibly more in emporia that pays a fair (but not high) wage and gives the employee benefits. you can imagine its a business that does not have alot of turnover. a mom and pop that is doing a good business and knows how to handle the finances can be good employers. im sure if the business depends on employees that are in a young age group that 'moves on' in life, the business wont have an incentive to give benefits and retain the employees. small businesses are good stable jobs compared to the big retails that are constantly trying to maximize the profits. they will cut hours just enough to keep a full time employee from earning benefits, and if someone has enough seniority to qualify for holiday pay, they will schedule the newer employees to work holidays so they pay less for the same amount of work on that day. look at fast food, low pay, not enough hours to earn benefits and it causes alot of burnout with the employees so they are constantly hiring new ones which keeps them from paying enough to support a family. this is why i think emporia should try to build up the small businesses which can provide more stability in the job market, not bring in more fast food and claim they have brought in more jobs to town. i dont know what kind of employer lowes is, but guess what- they are going to bring in a ton of restaurants behind them.

Posted by create (anonymous) on September 17, 2008 at 7:54 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Like I said, I have nothing against small business. Perhaps we should stop using the term Mom and Pop. I recognize a place like Bluestem as being small business. I don't know what they pay, but I'm guessing they at least offer some kind of benefit package for full timers. Sure, we have many small businesses in town. The people who do my plumbing would be one -- Burnap Bros, or any of those similar sized contractors. I agree, what we need is more small businesses, and yes, no more fast food places that typically pay low wages.

You're right about the big retailers and the way they think. My oldest is an administrator in a very big national retailer and all they think about is moving merchandise -- sell, sell, sell. Market share, market share, market share.

Do you really think Lowe's will bring in a ton of restaurants?

Posted by slipandslide (anonymous) on September 17, 2008 at 2:15 p.m. (Suggest removal)

a 'ton' was an exaggeration on my part, but they will have the low paying jobs following them

http://www.emporiagazette.com/news/2008/...

Posted by create (anonymous) on September 17, 2008 at 5:22 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Sorry slip, I wasn't referring to your use of "ton" but to several restaurants period. I had forgotten about that article you linked. "...several smaller retailers and perhaps two restaurants." Yes, low paying jobs.

Big box developers are accused of going to nearby established shopping centers and recruiting from businesses there to move to the small strip malls they introduce. No new business, but it just looks that way.

Posted by LifeGoesOn (anonymous) on September 17, 2008 at 7:28 p.m. (Suggest removal)

YAWN! Well has anybody came up with any new big business that is willing to come to Emporia yet? and hire hundreds of people? and pay Huge wages?
Create? Loafer? No? Oh well I'm sure you will get it all taken care of, afterall you both seem to know whats best for us poor ol dumb folks in Emporia.

Posted by netloafer (anonymous) on September 17, 2008 at 9:09 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Create

You and I are in desperate need of that remedial training in clairvoyance. Unless of course you saw that one coming or had a seat in the left field bleachers.

Posted by jayhawker (anonymous) on September 17, 2008 at 9:26 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Golly, LifeGoesOn, you sound more grumpy and cynical than I. At least I am old. create and netloafer are just doing the same thing that you and I are, and that is contributing to a discussion with our opinions. I enjoy their opinions, just like I do yours, except when you had a bad day. We all have those.

Posted by LifeGoesOn (anonymous) on September 18, 2008 at 7 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I probably am more grumpy and cynical than you, I seem to have that problem often, lol
I just cant believe the debate Still goes on with this topic, AND I Do have a bur in my behind when it comes to loafer and create, In (my opinion) and only my opinion, create is a retired teacher that had taught for so many years that thats all shes good at, teaching! she doesnt think she can ever be taught and loafer is just a wantabe politician, he speaks well but never says much. So, sometimes I cant help myself when it comes to throwing out a rude remark.

Now with that said, I do have to say, I dont always disagree with what they say and happen to agree with them on different topics, I just dont like the way they talk to people like they are somehow better, again JMO

Posted by slipandslide (anonymous) on September 18, 2008 at 9:58 a.m. (Suggest removal)

i like reading everyones comments, even create and loafter's. if i dont like a remark someone makes i ignore it. its a diverse world and there are going to be differences in opinion.

Posted by create (anonymous) on September 18, 2008 at 10:03 a.m. (Suggest removal)

You're not the first person to accuse me of elitism, Life, nor will you be the last. The sound of my voice was trained by a couple of professors at ESU who took me under their wing years ago. They said my ideas were good, but that my voice was too weak to make an impact. What you are hearing in my prose is called voice, sir, and you are confusing it with superiority. How unfortunate. Were I a lawyer, that voice would be worth lots of money, and yes, people would call me names then too.

Posted by methusla (anonymous) on September 18, 2008 at 10:04 a.m. (Suggest removal)

With what has been happening on Wall Street the past few days, the collapse of some of the oldest and largest investment banks, etc., along with the taxpayer funded saving of some businesses, that in my opinion should not have been saved using taxpayer money, I seriously doubt that there will be much business or job expansion anywhere in this country, for some time to come.
I also believe that the situation on Wall Street and the state the country is in or about to be in is the direct result of a Bush and Republican administration domestic policy of greed and corruption and the next elected President, V.P. and Congress are going to be inheriting a national situation mired in quicksand and will take some very tough fiscal decisions, that all U.S. citizens will not like, especially those who are greedy and worship only money and wealth.
Regardless of what anyone thinks or says, the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan must come to an end and troops withdrawn immediatly or as soon as possible ( the U.S. citizens are or will no longer be able to financially support wars that are going nowhere ), just think billions or trillions of dollars being spent and stolen, I believe in supporting in our brave troops, in every way possible, but only for a valid cause or reason not to line some ones' pocket with money .

Posted by momus (anonymous) on September 18, 2008 at 10:28 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Create,

Don't be ashamed of being called an elitist. A friend of mine told me it's redneck for "smart". ;)

Posted by netloafer (anonymous) on September 18, 2008 at 12:42 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Create/Momus

Folks would be amazed if they could see the things we elitists do on a day to day basis. Why just this morning I was working in the garden transplanting cactus and didn't even ask Chauncey the gardener for help. I even drove up to the store to get some compost and got some help from a developmentally disabled employee loading the stuff up. When it was loaded we had a brief, but wonderful conversation. The guy injected a boatload of sunshine into my day. I'd have spent more time with him, but he had a lot of work to do and seemed to love it.

It's probably not the type of thing we elitists should be doing, but I just can't help myself. A fella' can meet the most wonderful people and learn the most wonderful things in cirumstances like that.

Create

I imagine little things like that fill your day as well. If so, keep up with that kind of elitism. We need a lot more of it in this town.

Posted by LifeGoesOn (anonymous) on September 18, 2008 at 5:25 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Create, you say "You're not the first person to accuse me of elitism, Life, nor will you be the last" maybe that should tell you something. Also I like how you tell me I'm confused in what I am hearing, Again, the teacher teaching instead of listening and learning,and dont assume I am a "sir"

Loafer, it's nice to see how you felt the need to point out how you got help from someone who was "developmentally disabled" and who injected a boatload of sunshine into your day. Goody for you, You talked to someone handicapped, WOW Im impressed!

That is the kind of bull I'm talking about with you, What and why would you think anybody gives two cents about what a great person you are for taking the time to talk with someone disabled, Many people do it everyday and dont have to announce it to the world and say crap like, look how special I am, I can enjoy someones company even if they are disabled!
You both just keep telling everybody how good you are or how they are just confused, someday someone might start to believe that crap!

Loafer, here is the reason I say you are full of yourself, qoutes from just a FEW of your last posts

I was working ,I even drove up to the store ,I just can't help myself,I imagine little things ,I also found out ,I got the file this morning,I suspect most of us know less ,I think if we continue we'll get ,I have enough questions ,The only thing I see wrong ,I suspect there will be ....etc.... etc

It's always about you you you. I did this, I did that ,I know this and I know that...i, i i,i,i

Hell man you talked about yourself FIVE times in your last post!

Posted by netloafer (anonymous) on September 18, 2008 at 5:55 p.m. (Suggest removal)

LifeGoesOn

You are full of the milk of human kindness. Bless you!

You should be awarded sainthood for bearing up so bravely against the assaults of outrageous humanity.

Posted by justthefacts (anonymous) on September 18, 2008 at 6:09 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Good for you all. Stay busy tearing each other down while the rest of us work toward real life solutions. Lead, follow or get out of the way!

Posted by LifeGoesOn (anonymous) on September 18, 2008 at 6:48 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Loafer, for as much as I dislike you, (sometimes) you make me laugh! lol

I'd like to leave you with one thought...unfortunately I ain't sure you have anywhere to put it!

And by the way justthefact, was your last comment a leading one or a following one? seems to me it was meant to tear down and NOT work toward real life solutions. kinda hypocritical dont ya think

Posted by methusla (anonymous) on September 18, 2008 at 10:31 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Wow !
Things have really gotten away from the origional train of thought on the proposed Lowes Developement or how to bring manufacturing or tech jobs to Emporia or keep jobs from leaving Emporia or the U.S or the economic state of Emporia or the U.S. and how to possibly turn a bad and deteriorating national economy around.
Some of you seem to have lost the reality of a worsening National Economy, Job situation, etc. and would rather be-little and attack each other, instead.
I suggest we all take a step back, take some time for constructive thought, calm ourselves (yourselves) and try and absorb and understand the real life crisis the Nation is experiencing now or about to experience.
Then return to Gazette forum under perhaps calmer conditions.

Posted by justthefacts (anonymous) on September 18, 2008 at 11:51 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I guess methusla was more direct than I was. I made an observation. I guess anyone can read into to it whatever they want.

Posted by LifeGoesOn (anonymous) on September 19, 2008 at 6:39 a.m. (Suggest removal)

You are most correct, I'll try to stay on topic, I apoligize.