Understanding Conservatives
Bob Grover
Friday, October 21, 2011
In an effort to understand the baffling inconsistencies of conservatives (for example, deploring abortion but supporting the death penalty, or quoting the Bible to discriminate against minorities), I decided to explore the writing of a conservative who also has been concerned with these inconsistencies and with the veering of the Republican Party to the right.
John Dean was a trusted advisor to President Richard Nixon and was a key witness during the Watergate hearings. His testimony brought attacks from former White House compatriots like Gordon Liddy and Charles Colson. In trying to explain the rightward drift of the Republican Party, Dean wrote “Conservatives Without Conscience” (Viking, 2006).
Dean was careful to consult researchers who have studied the social and psychological motives of people who gravitate toward conservative politics. He is careful to explain that the term “conservative” has many shadings of meaning, just as terms like “liberal,” “progressive,” and “libertarian” do.
Dean writes, “Conservatism is not inherently moralistic, negative, arrogant, condescending, and self-righteous. Nor is it authoritarian. Yet all of these are adjectives that best describe the political outlook of contemporary conservatism. I make these observations not as an outsider, but as a conservative who is deeply troubled by what has become of a treasured philosophy. Conservatism has been co-opted by authoritarians, a most dangerous type of political animal.”
Dean quotes 1964 Presidential Candidate Barry Goldwater’s definition of conservatism—“the solutions to the problems of today can be found in the proven values of the past.” Furthermore, the conscience of a conservative, wrote Goldwater, is “pricked by anyone or any action that debases human dignity.”
Concerned with authoritarian leanings of today’s conservatives, Dean studied the research of social psychologists and noted that studies of the “authoritarian” personality date from the 1950’s. The term “authoritarian” does not refer only to a type of government, but applied to a study of personality, authoritarian types are found in homes, classrooms, churches, courtrooms—anywhere. Dean asserts that authoritarian personalities are “consistently associated with right-wing but not left-wing ideology.”
To study the conservative mind, New York University professor John T. Jost and his collaborators published a report entitled “Political Conservatism as Motivated Cognition”. Jost and his research team examined 44 years of studies by social scientists investigating conservatism and involving more than 22,000 participants. Dean summarizes the Jost study, stating that the psychological factors associated with political conservatives included “fear, intolerance of ambiguity, need for certainty or structure in life, overreaction to threats and a disposition to dominate others.”
Social psychologist and researcher Bob Altemeyer, University of Manitoba, has conducted personality research on what he calls “right-wing authoritarians.” His research shows conclusively that right-wing authoritarians (RWA’s) are submissive to established authority and are intolerant of criticism of that authority. RWA’s are aggressive toward others when such behavior is thought to be sanctioned by authorities, and they are compliant with social conventions endorsed by established authorities.
Authoritarians wish to control others’ behavior, especially children and criminals, and they have little tolerance for leniency. Both women and men may score high on the RWA scale. Authoritarians target for aggression people perceived as unconventional (for example, homosexuals), and Dean writes, “authoritarian aggression is fueled by fear and encouraged by remarkable self-righteousness, which frees aggressive impulses.” (p. 54)
Altemeyer’s research identifies several characteristics attributed to right-wing authoritarians:
They associate almost exclusively with like-minded people.
Their thoughts are based on information from those they consider authorities, not based on their own critical thinking.
They hold numerous hypocrisies and double standards.
They dislike many minorities, yet are unaware of their prejudice.
They view the world as evil and violent, and they see themselves as guardians of public morality.
They consider themselves more upstanding and moral than others.
While the above qualities may be considered negative, authoritarians themselves consider these qualities attractive, and these traits are true of all who test high on authoritarianism in Altemeyer’s research. Those who test low have fewer of these traits.
These are the conservatives who are followers. Dean bases his analysis on scientific research and makes it available for the public to study. This brief summary, while an accurate summary of Dean’s work, lacks detail, and I suggest reading “Conservatives Without Conscience.”
Another point: This review of research of right-wing authoritarians presents only a partial understanding the conservative mind. Research identifies a second category of “right-wing authoritar ians”—the leaders. The traits of these RWA leaders are for another discussion and another article.
Steve_Corbin (anonymous) says...
Why the continued effort to label people?
October 21, 2011 at 11:32 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
reddog (K. B. Thomas Jr.) says...
That is the quote of the year Steve.
October 21, 2011 at 1:38 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
reddog (K. B. Thomas Jr.) says...
Bob, today it's not the Democrat and Republican conflicts, but the corporations vs the individual. The elite love the left right debate because it takes away from the big picture. For example take the bailouts: a right winger bailed out the banks, Fannie Mae and AIG. Then along comes a left winger who puts more money on the deal. It'smy opinion that when it comes to these huge deficits and fiscal responsibility, the individual is doomed by both the left and right. This is why congress approval is at an all time low. Anyone who thinks in terms of left and right needs to get thy head out of school books and return to the real world. Some people mistake a short memory for a clear conscience.
October 21, 2011 at 2:42 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
hogan77 (anonymous) says...
WOW. No spam links from reddog??? Quick, someone call an ambulance... I think I am having a heart attack!!!
October 21, 2011 at 2:46 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
americus1987 (anonymous) says...
Reddog I completely agree and thank you for no spam. Instead of Occupy or the Tea Party, why can't we start a moderate movement? I'd like to see the media do a spin off on that one.
October 21, 2011 at 4:57 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
reddog (K. B. Thomas Jr.) says...
I feel like we need to get back to honest money and no one knows the ropes on this issue better than Ron Paul. I beg of you to view this video. It just might save your dinner bucket and retirement. I am not an investment person for you to heed my advice but, Ron Paul makes a lot of sense to me although the corporate media slights him.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3SOlXxUBLk
October 21, 2011 at 5:11 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
reddog (K. B. Thomas Jr.) says...
Ron Paul's greatest interview.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3SOlX...
October 21, 2011 at 5:13 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
reddog (K. B. Thomas Jr.) says...
While the left is trying to understand the right and the right is trying to understand the left--here are 30 signs the economy is about to go into the toilet even though the rigged stock market is still holding in there.
http://www.blacklistednews.com/30_Sig...
October 21, 2011 at 5:29 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
reddog (K. B. Thomas Jr.) says...
Some common ground that the left and right can agree on. Christ has made us free. View this video and understand what our founding fathers vision was for America.
http://chuckbaldwinlive.com/home/?p=4057
October 21, 2011 at 5:51 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
goodoleboy (anonymous) says...
No, leave religion out of it.
Speaking of bailouts, Fanestil ring a bell?
I actually support Ron Paul, and I know for a fact what has transpired with fanestil would be denounced by him.
Practice what you preach
October 22, 2011 at 12:55 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
reddog (K. B. Thomas Jr.) says...
IF we desire liberty, we can't leave religion out. They actually compliment one another. How can you call Fanestil a bailout? This action by the city is no different than other plants that have located here.
http://speculationrules.com/rants/ind...
October 22, 2011 at 9 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
reddog (K. B. Thomas Jr.) says...
One of the things I believe will debase the human diginity is the coming New World Order and the left and the right have sold us out to Wall Street, To big to fail bankers and muti-international corporations.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxPYa5...
October 22, 2011 at 10:28 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mslater (Matt Slater) says...
Having been to a couple countries whose government is dominated by religion, I want no part of any religion in any part of government.
Second, if Martin Luther King had found out we have a black president, he would have been ecstatic, until he found out he was a democrat. Then he would have been very confused, because MLK was a life-long card-carrying republican. I think it's hilarious the first blackresident is a democrat, personally.
Matt
October 22, 2011 at 11:39 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
reddog (K. B. Thomas Jr.) says...
Matt, good to hear from you and keep up the good work--our prayers are with you and thank you for your service. I realize that sometimes when you are in a war zone, one thinks the average person in America doesn't really care. Let me tell you, you are in our thoughts and may I share these thoughts with you about the church in America. According to Pastor Chuck Baldwin, the church is a tax exempt corporation. I think he has a good point. One thing we can all agree on is that we are losing more and more of our freedoms.
http://chuckbaldwinlive.com/home/?p=3859
October 22, 2011 at 2:52 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
reddog (K. B. Thomas Jr.) says...
FISH STORY. The upcoming election will be fins to the left and fins to the right. And the politicians will be the only bait in town.
October 22, 2011 at 3:08 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
reddog (K. B. Thomas Jr.) says...
Tax payers on the hook again for derivaties. Please take the time to view this Ron Paul interview. This is outrages and what can we do about it?http://runronpaul.com/
October 22, 2011 at 5:26 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
reddog (K. B. Thomas Jr.) says...
http://www.dailypaul.com/184048/ron-p...
October 22, 2011 at 5:31 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
reddog (K. B. Thomas Jr.) says...
http://runronpaul.com/
October 22, 2011 at 6 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
reddog (K. B. Thomas Jr.) says...
Federal Reserve Corruption.
http://dailybail.com/home/william-bla...
October 22, 2011 at 9:09 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
reddog (K. B. Thomas Jr.) says...
The economic elite vs the people of the U.S.
http://dailybail.com/home/must-see-dy...
October 22, 2011 at 9:16 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
reddog (K. B. Thomas Jr.) says...
GET over your nonesense that Democrats are any better than Republicans. The banks qwn both parties.
http://dailybail.com/home/ratigan-sch...
October 22, 2011 at 9:31 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
reddog (K. B. Thomas Jr.) says...
BOMBSHELL. Massachusetts Supreme Court rules most forclousers in last 5 years are illegal.
http://dailybail.com/home/bombshell-m...
October 22, 2011 at 9:49 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
reddog (K. B. Thomas Jr.) says...
Foreclosure Fraud.
http://stopforeclosurefraud.com/2011/...
October 22, 2011 at 10:02 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
reddog (K. B. Thomas Jr.) says...
Who is keeping track of the Trillions.
http://dailybail.com/home/there-are-n...
October 22, 2011 at 10:33 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
reddog (K. B. Thomas Jr.) says...
We are not going to pay back the Chinese. This is kind of funny.
http://dailybail.com/home/peter-schif...
October 22, 2011 at 10:42 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Malique (anonymous) says...
Sign the petition to ban reddog's spam posts.
http://www.emporiagazette.com/discuss...
October 22, 2011 at 11:39 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
goodoleboy (anonymous) says...
KB,
Definition of bailout:
"In economics, a bailout is an act of loaning or giving capital to an entity (a company, a country, or an individual) that is in danger of failing, in an attempt to save it from bankruptcy, insolvency, or total liquidation and ruin; or to allow a failing entity to fail gracefully without spreading contagion"
Now Smoots knew when he bought this company that it was in a flood plain, but now all of sudden with FEMA grant he saw an opportunity to fleece the taxpayers for his move, and has fleeced the local taxpayers further with this deal. Why a successful business needs millions in taxpayer money to prosper is ludicrous, and the notion stands against everything the cranks you read believe in. So basically in the end we the people end up subsidizing this business, if Smoot's had promised to increase the jobs then MAYBE it would have been worth, but he is contractually obliged to staff LESS than he has now.
If that does not scream bailout and sound a lot like what happened on Wall Street I don't know what does. Get a clue
October 23, 2011 at 1:57 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
goodoleboy (anonymous) says...
Concerning religion in government, I think you might want to read up on founding fathers and how they felt about this. In fact taxes and religious persecution are the largest factors in the birth of America. The moment your beliefs infringe on my freedom is the moment you should keep them to yourself.
October 23, 2011 at 2:01 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
reddog (K. B. Thomas Jr.) says...
Listen to the Alex Jones show and off with your blinders, it's time to get the panoramic view.
http://www.infowars.com/audiobox.html
October 23, 2011 at 7:50 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
tourguide (anonymous) says...
13 SPAM SITES ON THE SAME SUBJECT LINE, But is was a SATURDAY NIGHT. He probably had nothing else to do. After all it's Emporia... No one is buying houses..
October 23, 2011 at 8:55 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
create (anonymous) says...
Perhaps OCCUPY should be picketing Fanestils.
Hmmmm.....
October 23, 2011 at 9:41 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Richie (anonymous) says...
"Most conservatives believe in the death penalty, but not abortion, which proves they like to procrastinate." - Margaret Cho
October 23, 2011 at 3:55 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Richie (anonymous) says...
There's an obvious disconnect between "liberals" and "conservatives."
Myself, I am a socially-liberal, fiscally-conservative Democrat. When I lived in the Midwest, the locals called me a Democrat (as if dirty). Now, I live in San Francisco, and the locals call me a Republican (again, as if dirty). I guess I'm an independent voter, though trending with the Democrats.
I blame the media, certain media. Also, I blame the PR teams of certain politicians. (Not all.) But, they say exactly what their clans want to hear, not the moderates. Our country would be better off without the Air Americas (ultra-liberal) and the FOX News (ultra-conservative); both of which misconstrue the truth. We should be able to talk like adults, and find middle ground amongst our similarities. Yes, I wear rose-colored glasses.
We need another Walter Cronkite; someone who calls a spade a spade without calling names and using emotional "get 'um" phrases. Let the public make a decision for themselves without confusion.
October 23, 2011 at 5:19 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
reddog (K. B. Thomas Jr.) says...
occupy wall street.
http://prisonplanet.tv/news/watch_rep...
October 23, 2011 at 6:19 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
reddog (K. B. Thomas Jr.) says...
Something you need to know about Uncle Walter.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=heegk0...
October 23, 2011 at 6:34 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
reddog (K. B. Thomas Jr.) says...
A quote from Uncle Walter.
http://www.godlikeproductions.com/for...
October 23, 2011 at 6:46 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Richie (anonymous) says...
reddog - I'm sorry to say, but your outdated opinions and tactics are no longer relevant in today's global community. Time to retire?
October 23, 2011 at 6:49 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Richie (anonymous) says...
reddog - I believe persons who are "liberal" and those who are "conservative" need a moderator to realize we do have a common voice. Persons like you, very rabid, do not help the political process. We need those who can translate what the "other" is thinking or feeling so that we can understand and get on the same page.
October 23, 2011 at 7:16 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Steve_Corbin (anonymous) says...
"Progress, far from consisting in change, depends on retentiveness. When change is absolute there remains no being to improve and no direction is set for possible improvement: and when experience is not retained, as among savages, infancy is perpetual. Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
written by
??????????????
October 23, 2011 at 7:24 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
tourguide (anonymous) says...
WALTER for PRESIDENT, Ron Paul look alike.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8--lrO...
October 23, 2011 at 7:25 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
netloafer (anonymous) says...
Santayana
October 23, 2011 at 8:26 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Steve_Corbin (anonymous) says...
thanks netloafer,
i looked him up. seemed to be a pretty conflicted and/or complex conservative.
(if I were to put a label on it). :>)
October 23, 2011 at 8:34 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
netloafer (anonymous) says...
I've read very little of his work. It was complex. His thought was a marriage of evolutionary biology and metaphysics.
He had a great deal of influence on thinkers of all stripes, including atheist Bertrand Russell, the Christian poet/author T.S. Eliot.
I think it was also Churchill who said something like "if you're young and not a liberal you have no heart; if you're older and not conservative you have no mind."
I'm sure that will set off the younger progressives on this forum. I didn't do it intentionally. Just citing Churchill's ovservation.
October 23, 2011 at 8:42 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
goodoleboy (anonymous) says...
Churchill's comments are a trap, labels make everything black and white, the real world is about shades of grey.
October 23, 2011 at 10:11 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
reddog (K. B. Thomas Jr.) says...
FOOD FOR THOUGHT.
http://www.ndstrupler.com/10-looser-m...
October 24, 2011 at 12:11 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
reddog (K. B. Thomas Jr.) says...
To big to fail: the "Paulson put" presidential politics, the global financial meltdown.
http://www.newdeal20.org/wp-content/u...
October 24, 2011 at 12:31 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Malique (anonymous) says...
reddog is in violation of the user poster agreement (http://www.emporiagazette.com/discuss...) and deserves to be banned.
Why doesn't the moderator act on this?
October 24, 2011 at 12:52 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
reddog (K. B. Thomas Jr.) says...
THE FALL OF THE REPUBLIC.
http://www.infowars.com/director-alex...
October 24, 2011 at 6:32 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
reddog (K. B. Thomas Jr.) says...
mallique, you thought I was serious?
October 24, 2011 at 6:34 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
reddog (K. B. Thomas Jr.) says...
FALL OF THE REPUBLIC FULL LENGTH
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VebOTc...
October 24, 2011 at 6:46 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
create (anonymous) says...
'...and when experience is not retained, as among savages,..."
I have a problem with this part of Santayana's statement. Savages indeed. He must have been a white elitist.
If "savages" didn't retain experiences, how otherwise would their tribes exist from one generation to another? How otherwise do they teach their young about poisonous snakes and toxic plants and bad juju?
I know, I know. No sense arguing with dead philosophers. I'm just saying...
October 24, 2011 at 10:29 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Steve_Corbin (anonymous) says...
create,
the answer is found in the three words of the quote you left out.
"infancy is perpetual".
We were all savages at one time. (some still are) ;>) But by remembering our experiences and learning from the past, we grow. Or something like that.
October 24, 2011 at 11:50 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
create (anonymous) says...
Steve,
Yes, I read the rest of his statement, and I understand and agree with what you say about growing by remembering experiences. But that's not what he said. His use of the words "as in savages" put in commas means he believes savages do not experience growth through experience.
Do you really think he meant all babies and youngsters are "savages" because they lack experience? I don't. I think he was being a racist elite.
Anyway, I may be wrong for never having studied him at length when I took my philosophy class, it was just a regular survey class. I took that class as an adult and the class was full of regular aged college students. Not much discussion took place. I wish it had.
October 24, 2011 at 1:23 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
Well, based on the definitions of " Conservative " and " Liberal " which is ,
conservative[kuhn-sur-vuh-tiv] Origin YouTube Town Hall
Same Issues. Different Views. Watch Political Stances On Big Issues.
www.youtube.com/YTTownHall
Conservative Definition
Dictionary.com
1.disposed to preserve existing conditions, institutions, etc., or to restore traditional ones, and to limit change.
2.cautiously moderate or purposefully low: a conservative estimate. 3.traditional in style or manner; avoiding novelty or showiness: conservative suit.
Definition of LIBERAL
1a : of, relating to, or based on the liberal arts b archaic : of or befitting a man of free birth
2a : marked by generosity : openhanded b : given or provided in a generous and openhanded way c : ample, full
3obsolete : lacking moral restraint : licentious
4: not literal or strict : loose
5: broad-minded; especially : not bound by authoritarianism, orthodoxy, or traditional forms
So, based on my interpretation of the literal definition of " Conservative " and " Liberal " , I would say and judge myself to be a " Liberal Conservative Independent " ! In other words, one who is not swayed by either Conservatism or Liberalism but is " independent " of either and independent enough to see possible good qualites, of both, but still independent enough to see and give thought to those good qualities and ideas of both or either or any political organization .
But I staunchly have my own thoughts, ideas and beliefs, also.
JMO
October 24, 2011 at 1:58 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
reddog (K. B. Thomas Jr.) says...
NEWS FLASH. Vatican calls for world central bank.
http://www.infowars.com/vatican-calls...
October 24, 2011 at 2:08 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
reddog (K. B. Thomas Jr.) says...
Has U.S. Federal Reserve become the central bank of the world?
http://www.infowars.com/federal-reser...
October 24, 2011 at 2:12 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
reddog (K. B. Thomas Jr.) says...
MORE ON THE FED being lender of last resort.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-12...
October 24, 2011 at 2:17 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
sail (anonymous) says...
Well bob, the way I see it, conservatives pay the bill the liberals create, the big problem is that we are at that tipping point of more consumers than tax payers..... and they, the consumers VOTE.
October 24, 2011 at 6:48 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
goodoleboy (anonymous) says...
Sail,
I don't side with either, but your assertion that "conservatives pay the bill the liberals create" is just total and complete BS. Conservative administrations are in fact responsible for a great deal more debt than liberals, this is fact, black and white numbers. One wonders why the "Conservative" label is even applied.
You are smarter than this.
October 24, 2011 at 6:55 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
sail (anonymous) says...
Well, I thought the great society of LBJ was a demm platform, along with FDR's leap into our pocket book was a demm progam, and now we have national health care,it too is produced by a liberal.Just saying GOOOLEBOY we are in trouble unless we get spending under control and the touchy feelies can create a lot of spending.
October 24, 2011 at 7:14 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
goodoleboy (anonymous) says...
The national debt before the Reagan administration was approx $600 billion. Just to put things in perspective I strongly suggest you review the the following graph, it is what it is.
http://zfacts.com/p/1170.html
Pretty clear to me where the blame lies.
October 24, 2011 at 10:33 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
reddog (K. B. Thomas Jr.) says...
Obama Health bill allows government real time access to bank accounts.
http://www.infowars.com/obama-health-...
October 24, 2011 at 11:15 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Richie (anonymous) says...
Clinton gave us a surplus. Dubya gave us a deficit. Even independent sources will tell you that. We were happy in the 90's, and very unhappy in the aughts. You can do the math.
October 24, 2011 at 11:18 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Steve_Corbin (anonymous) says...
News Flash !
Both parties SUCK !
They know it and we know it.
Trouble is, that when it comes time to vote we look at which party has done the most for us. Us, not the country, not the United States.
Our country is in serious trouble and we squabble about who is to blame.
Conservative vs. Liberal, Democrat against Republican.
And our elected officials know if they can keep us occupied fighting each other, their jobs are safe.
Both parties cater to their extreme wings in order to stay in office, and the majority of us are suffering because of it.
We better wake up and DEMAND more from our elected officials. Or our country is doomed. Don't think it can't happen.
Think of the Soviet Union. After a protracted war in Afghanistan left it in economic ruins, civil unrest in the individual states led to it's break up. Could it happen here?
October 25, 2011 at 6:39 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Steve_Corbin (anonymous) says...
another example:
This week we had pols from both parties crowing about how it took only 1 billion and no American lives to get rid of a dictator in Libya, and bring democracy to that country.
Then the head of the new government says that the new countries laws will be based on sharia law.
http://news.yahoo.com/sharia-law-decl...
Now there is a little concern, don't you think?
October 25, 2011 at 7:08 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Steve_Corbin (anonymous) says...
and:
After 10 years, a trillion dollars or so, and MANY American lives lost in the Afghanistan, the man we put in power says he would fight Americans if we ever went to war with Pakistan.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45006644/...
Will we ever learn from past mistakes?
October 25, 2011 at 7:13 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
sail (anonymous) says...
Goodoleboy,the Bushes were not the repubs finest hour, Bush one gave us the beginning of nafta and gatt,that sure worked out well,it was signed by clinton,bush two gave us....,now where were those wmds and persc drugs.No I wont accept the bush boys as conservatives.They both caused a great deal of loss to the US treasury.
October 25, 2011 at 7:44 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
sail (anonymous) says...
Steve I agree, BOTH PARTIES LIE CHEAT AND STEAL from we the people,I just get my bowels in an uproar when bob puts his blinders on and drinks the koolaid and starts typing....I will try to temper my disfavor for unjust tax leaches in the future.
October 25, 2011 at 7:57 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
sail (anonymous) says...
Goodoleboy, Ron Paul huh,I sure like him in the debates.
October 25, 2011 at 8:15 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Steve_Corbin (anonymous) says...
You all know I back Dr. Paul. He is the only candidate that has stayed true to his thoughts over many years of public service. I don't agree with all of his points, but then we can't agree on everything, can we?
He is running as a republican because our system makes it hard for any third party to mount a campaign. And if the press and pundits keep ignoring him, I hope he runs as an independent.
But if you look at the rest of the republican contenders and look at the other "side" and it's candidate, what's the difference? Both catering to the fringe and quick to place blame. Not a whole lot of specifics on what they would do if elected.
We should be tired of voting for the lessor of two evils. We need to throw a couple of more "evils" into the mix. :>)
October 25, 2011 at 8:29 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Steve_Corbin (anonymous) says...
Sail,
these debates so far have been kind of a joke.
It seems that the moderators allow 1 or 2 of the candidates to keep responding to each other for minutes and minutes on 1 subject while the others stand on the side lines. what ever happened to a good ole fashioned debate?
Here's an idea I would like to see, (at least in the Primary debates). Moderator asks a question and each candidate has 1 minute to answer it anyway they want, (rebuttals to others included). After 1 minute microphone and camera is cut off, and goes to next candidate. This would require some quick thinking and "off the cuff", non prepared thinking and answers.
October 25, 2011 at 8:37 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
First of all, let me say, a public debate is a " Show " and not an informative one at that . Depending on which " National " network is broadcasting the " Public Political Party Debate " and which Candidate they are " Backing " with political, monetary donations, is the candidate that will get the most " Air " Time ... that' s just the way it is done. The whole Political spectrum in the U.S. or any country, especially the U.S. boils down to two words, can you say " SPECIAL INTEREST " and those two words are absolutely the root problem with the U.S. and other countries.
Secondly, How much money do you think our government could save the tax paying poor and middle class if all, so called " Foreign Aide " were to be stopped, cut, abolished and the U.S. would stop funding and fighting every other countries wars of so called " Independence/Democracy " for them and let them work out their own problems the only way they know how and have been doing for thousands of years ... fighting amongst themselves, in tribal and religious wars for " eons ", as this is basically their life style and will not change . Religious and tribal fighting/warfare are the only way of life these people and countries know. Look at Iraq and Afghanistan, nothing has changed, after years of attempted foreign intervention via, tons of money being spent and lives being lost .
Thirdly, the common/poor & middle class taxpaying people of the U.S. have more than enough enemy' s right here in the U.S. that are destroying the U.S., including our own government, which has become an enemy of the people, spending trillions of taxpayer dollars on foreign conflicts, etc. and the slow but methodical take over of our government by those who believe themselves to be religious christians. In case anyone hasn' t noticed or bothered to notice the U.S. itself is slowly becoming a religious State not so unlike a " Shia or Muslim " controlled State, only difference the U.S. calls itself a Freedom loving Democratic State.
One question, Do we as U.S. citizens have the Freedoms today that we had 20 or more years ago and are we actually better off ??
Another question, How many of you believe that Churches and Religious sects/organizations are not among the Special Interest groups that donate large sums of money to political party's/candidates and then demand favors in return for those monetary donations, just like all big special interest corporations, businesses or individuals ?
I don' t know when the common working people of the U.S. are going to fully wake up and realize that the " Peoples " governments, Fed/State/Local are being bought and paid for by all those Special Interest groups via political campaign donations and lobbying efforts after a candidate is elected, supposedly by the " People " !
JMO
October 25, 2011 at 9:27 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
netloafer (anonymous) says...
I believe the Cain and Romney campaigns have arranged for a Lincoln-Douglas style debate.
The two candidates will hammer things out with one another for a couple of hours.
If they hold true to the standards, the results could be quite telling.
October 25, 2011 at 9:34 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Steve_Corbin (anonymous) says...
netloafer,
That's what we need! Two of the biggest flip-floppers debating. One of them goes which ever way the wind blows, the other works for the Koch brothers.
The Republicans haven't had a good candidate since Nixon ;>)
October 25, 2011 at 10:14 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Steve_Corbin (anonymous) says...
Jeesh
Come on cable 1. I be missing my "Price is right" with Drew Carey.
October 25, 2011 at 10:21 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Steve_Corbin (anonymous) says...
Kinda thought the Nixon comment would have stirred things up. Evidently everyone is in agreement?
October 25, 2011 at 11:42 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
sail (anonymous) says...
Tricky dick ,hmmm wonder how high school history books look at him now?
October 25, 2011 at 11:58 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
goodoleboy (anonymous) says...
I'll bite, Nixon was not as bad as people make him out to be, but as far as good republican presidents, I would say Eisenhower was the last great one, many will say Reagan, but looking closely at his presidency it was not all that great.
I do support Ron Paul though, I like a lot of what he says, I doubt he will get the nomination, $100 says it will be Romney.
October 25, 2011 at 4:24 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
marko (anonymous) says...
Nixon was a good candiate, and an effective President, It's just the fact that we got to see the real underpinnings of a campaign run by zealots that ruined it for most folks.
October 25, 2011 at 6:22 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Steve_Corbin (anonymous) says...
All you have to do is figure out how YOU would deal with stuff. It's up to You and YOU only on how you vote.
October 25, 2011 at 8:24 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Richie (anonymous) says...
Ya know, RARELY do I and meth see eye to eye. (I bet meth could beat me at arm-wrestling.) That said, I think he/she and I are on the same page. We need to set aside labels. I admit to taking kindly to the label of "liberal." But, we need to see that we are all Americans, dare I say humans, and have an equal interest in our politics and communities. What we don't need are smooth talking media who build unnecessary walls between us. I think of my ultra-conservative Aunt. She and I speak by phone weekly. We love the fact that we don't always see eye to eye, yet we can have a decent conversation together resulting in a shared decision. From this point forward, we should all promise to rid ourselves of utlra-winged media.
October 25, 2011 at 10:46 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
goodoleboy (anonymous) says...
A good step was when their respective networks canned Olbermann and Glen Beck, I would like to see more of this.
October 26, 2011 at 12:44 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Steve_Corbin (anonymous) says...
When Pat Robertson thinks the republicans are too conservative, things are out of control.
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/pa...
Maybe he is referring to stuff like this:
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/he...
October 26, 2011 at 9:52 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Steve_Corbin (anonymous) says...
Yes, it seems these republican candidates are working overtime to make sure the current President is re-elected.
October 26, 2011 at 9:54 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Steve_Corbin (anonymous) says...
And our democratic president just got off his soapbox, telling college students that their student debt wasn't really their fault and they should get some help with it. GET READY for a lot of pork give away in the next year before the election.
'WHAT CAN WE GIVE TO THE VOTERS TO GET RE-ELECTED?" So what if it raises the debt, let the younger kids pay for it. They can't vote against us now, can they?"
October 26, 2011 at 12:36 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
goodoleboy (anonymous) says...
In this case, Obama is right. He is not giving away money. All he has said is that kids should get low interest loans and manageable repayment, investment in higher education is investment in our future. I don't want the private sector involved in it, they can make money off the houses, cars, etc these kids buy. There is no downside to this in my eyes.
October 26, 2011 at 1:34 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
create (anonymous) says...
Agree! Those loans are to be handled directly by the government, and not banks who already get their pound of flesh.
When kids graduate with degrees, upward mobility is the result, and yes, goodoleboy, that means cars and all kinds of goods including houses become future purchases when income is higher. We should all support this idea of invesing in higher education. In my own case, were it not for the GI Bill, I would have never been able to attend college. Thank all of you for that.
October 26, 2011 at 3:02 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
goodoleboy (anonymous) says...
I agree create, forgot to mention the unemployment rate for those with degrees is only about 4%
http://articles.businessinsider.com/2...
October 26, 2011 at 5:06 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Steve_Corbin (anonymous) says...
While it may seem great that the government took over the student loan program, it sure looks good on paper.
But I go back to my original thinking about how well the government has run other programs, and if they fail, who bails them out?
The decades old thinking of every child needs a college degree to succeed is in itself, flawed.
The fact that most graduates, now finance their education on plastic and graduate with a huge debt load is problematic, and now it is coming back to bight those graduates and their families.
I agree with your facts, goodoleboy, the chart speaks to the unemployment figures of degree holders.
But what would the percentage of UNDEREMPLOYMENT be?
How many with college degrees and huge student debt are employed in jobs that have nothing to do with their degree?
Sure we need doctors and engineers and scientists, and of course teachers. We also need plumbers, electricians, welders and laborers.
Right or wrong, most employers don't even look too hire someone without a degree, just because there are so many out there with them looking for work. That's what makes that 4% figure look so good.
But the next time you are being helped by a younger waitress, bartender, store clerk, or service worker, (all good honest work) ask them if they have a college degree and student loan debt. I think you will be shocked.
While the president did not come out and say the student debt would be forgiven, he still is pandering to a huge segment of the population that is affected by this economy.
We are in that election cycle now, and we will see more of that "I feel your pain" speak. No REAL solutions. Just more Hope and Change". Or maybe this time it's going to be "Fear and Envy"
October 27, 2011 at 7:04 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
create (anonymous) says...
Steve, slow down my friend. You seem to be thinking that all degrees are from 4-year colleges or med school or law school. No, not true. Wow, it's almost an attack on white collar degree holders. Hang on here.
A post high school education also means many blue collar positions like plumbers, electricians, A/C and Heating folks, dental hygienists, chefs, and those sort of folks who must attend a trade school in order to obtain associate degrees or journeyman certificates. Many IT folks attend trade schools too. Look at Flint Hills Tech offerings for example.
Who is to say those folks don't deserve some help with their tuition expenses? Not me. While their school debt may not be huge, they still deserve a break so that when they do obtain a job, they aren't bogged down with paying back student loans.
I like my plumber and electrician and my heating and A/C guy. I'm glad they aren't fly-by-the-seat-of-their-pants guys who only have a partial set of skills they picked up on the street. Those are trades that you can't just jump into like bartendng or waitressing. I am not putting down those two jobs so don't attack please. I've tended bar an I've waited tables too.
I don't recall the president saying this school debt program is for teachers and doctors and lawyers and bio-engineers only. It is for everyone who seeks a formal education after high school or military training.
Did you know there is a program for medical doctors whose student loans will be forgiven by a large percentage if they locate in rural areas? It's been around for a long time and I think it's still ongoing. I like that program. Look at the benefits for all involved.
October 27, 2011 at 9:04 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
netloafer (anonymous) says...
I found this interesting:
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/a...
As with anything concerning economics, the devil will be in the details.
I wish this generation's college students well, but I think Steve makes a good point. A while back I was in Wal Mart and noticed a young woman who had graduated from ESU. I went to talk with her and found out she was working at Wal-Mart. She appeared to be embarrassed. I tried to reassure her. She said her job was about the only thing available in Emporia.
Now it could be that she had skills that might be marketable elsewhere, but I think it's tough everywhere and I do think that a lot of young grads are under-employed.
October 27, 2011 at 9:39 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Steve_Corbin (anonymous) says...
create,
Like I said on the other thread, maybe I should have taken debate class.
I do know that some degrees take longer than 4 years, come on. And I am sorry you think I am attacking white collar degree holders. On that point let me assure you I am not.
Nothing against degrees or those pursuing them.
Nothing against going into debt to accomplish that.
Really nothing against Government loan guarantees for that debt.
Nothing against going to school for ten years to earn a degree, if a person is able to do it.
Maybe it would be a perfect world if we could all continue our education beyond what is mandated.
You were a teacher, correct?
I am assuming high school?
Surely you had some students who you thought a college degree would not be helpful on their journey to becoming a successful, contributing member of society?
There I go getting distracted again !
If you go back and read my original post that started this @9:52 a.m. I was commenting on the republican candidates extremism and then the presidents speech to students. So my original thought was on the election cycle and all the promises that will be made and broken by the candidates.
I have always been easily distracted by bright shiny objects, sorry:>)
October 27, 2011 at 9:49 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
create (anonymous) says...
Yes, I read your post, and I thought you appeared (that's a nice debate word for you) to be disdainful of helping students with white collar/advanced degrees repay their loans.
Yes, I was a teacher, still am since I'm still licensed. And yes, I had many students I knew were not suited for a 4-year college, and I often said so to their parents. But at the same time, I always offered alternative solutions like FH Tech. And don't think I wasn't often met with contempt for having stated a truth. More than once I was told how parents had saved for this kid to go to college. Here I was bursting their balloon, but since then I've learned of those who did the bursting all by themselves. College isn't for everyone and I am the first to say so.
One of my granddaughters is headed for college next year where she will study architecture, her life long dream. She is a math whiz. Dual brained, actually. My other two grandchildren, however, are not college material and I am not so delusional that I would do anything to make them to go to college. They wouldn't make it, and I am a realist.
I am well aware of how candidates break promises, and that includes Obama. Still, I am in favor of the idea itself of giving kids a break in the student loan department.
With regard to the kid netloafer is referring to at Wal Mart. What a shame that she has to waste her education for $7 an hour and no health care. The real tragedy is that she must now pay back any student loans she made and do it on that lousy $7 an hour. How is she expected to support herself on that? What pawns we are. No wonder we are marching in the streets.
I hope she can find employment elsewhere, even in another city, because to waste an education is a horrible thing. I hope also that she realizes that hanging around Emporia will be of no help in the employment department. Maybe Peggy Mast can help her.
Yes, that was a bitch comment.
October 27, 2011 at 10:59 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
netloafer (anonymous) says...
Create
That young gal was working on commission at the portrait studio.
Be that as it may, I think there are opportunities for young people to help themselves.
My wife and I both retired from FedEx. I started at six bucks an hour in customer service. When I first applied I told my wife that there was no way we could live on that. She encouraged me to take the job saying that opportunity would come. We struggled for a year, then I got a job in the company's logistics division. I was doing quite well by the time I retired. My wife took a low paying job at FedEx when we moved to NJ. It was well beneath her skills and ability. By the time we left she had become the manager of FedEx's IT division in Silicon Valley.
I don't think we're any better than anyone else. But we learned that if we were willing to take a risk, a good company like FedEx was willing to take a risk on us.
And I do think there are companies that are still willing to take risks to get/develop the skills they need. I just read that FedEx is going to be hiring 20K hourlies for its Christmas season. I suspect a good number of them may wind up with permanent employment based on their skills and work ethic.
October 27, 2011 at 11:15 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Steve_Corbin (anonymous) says...
Appearances can and usually are deceiving.
I am glad we can agree that not all young people are cut out for that university degree. And it's great having such a good vocational school like we have here in Emporia, (along with the good university).
Back in our day, a good education and hard work got you a good paying job, with a good chance for advancement.
Just about any college degree usually guaranteed a better paying one.
As a society, we and our government pushed for a higher continuing education for ALL high school graduates. This was done for several decades, while giving those vocational trades the short end of the stick.
We were told by our parents and we told our kids, "If you don't go to college you won't get a good job".
Unfortunately the result of this is more and more disillusioned graduates who were told they would have a cream of the crop job at a great wage, not getting that dream job.
For generations, "The American Dream" was that our children and their children would be better off than we were. Is that dream in danger of ending for this current generation?
If the economy was not so bad and older people were not afraid to retire right now, maybe that would help with the overall employment figures for the younger people?
Wish I had the answer.
October 27, 2011 at 1:38 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Steve_Corbin (anonymous) says...
I do know of a lot of students staying in or going back to school and taking on even more debt, just because of this job market.
October 27, 2011 at 1:44 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
create (anonymous) says...
Right at this very moment, high dollar blue collar jobs are the ticket in a little town called Williston, North Dakota. There's an oil boom going on there and the population of 7 thousand has exploded to over 23 thousand. No college degrees necessary there. Experienced oil line workers are making six figure incomes. Truck drivers are making $80K annually.
The article pointed out that for every job filled, a job and a half is created. Of course they have two large problems with all this population explosion. There is no housing so men are having to live in those little HUD houses in what is called "man camps." Problem number two is social. What do thousands of men do after hours? They go to town and drink and get into trouble. Traffic jams abound and they don't have enough police. Local people are happy as clams at the money rolling in. Gotta strike while the iron is hot.
I wish I was younger. I'd go up there and open up one of those giant Gilley's style bars and hire a few bouncers.
Remember how Levi Strauss got his start. He couldn't do all the hard work required for gold mining, but he saw a need for tougher trousers. Welcome Levis. The rest is history.
October 27, 2011 at 1:56 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
create (anonymous) says...
netloafer, when you started at Fed X, did you have college loans to pay off? Would you have been able to?
When I began teaching at Olpe, I was in graduate school, fully expecting to get my master's and then my PhD so I could teach in college. But that job at Olpe was so inviting because I wanted a small town school. Voila! That job and the wonderful people of Olpe were the best things to ever happen to me with regard to employment. I just finished my master's requirements over time.
October 27, 2011 at 2:01 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
create (anonymous) says...
Here's a link to the Williston, N.D. story.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/...
October 27, 2011 at 2:07 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
netloafer (anonymous) says...
Create
I worked my way through college. I worked for a company called Standard Packaging at 58 hours a week. I also made arrangements for an academic scholarship. I also got GI Bill benefits. I got that benefit in exchange for 8 1/2 years of my youth.
I was fortunate enough to have enough money left over to help a fellow student I'd become close friends with.
I don't think that made me particularly noble. I was fortunate and felt a sense of responsibility to help a friend.
Labor markets are sensitive to supply and demand. When there is a high degree of demand for labor, the capitalist is willing to pay a premium for it. It seems to me that greed, or enlightened self-interest, can work to the benefit of all parties. I don't think capitalism is a zero sum game.
October 27, 2011 at 2:21 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
create (anonymous) says...
You're right about labor markets, netloafer. In Williston, North Dakota, jobs at MacDonald's are paying $14 an hour. They pay minimum wage here.
Like you, I used my GI bill and I worked full time at Newman's for my college education. I made many young friends at college who had it rougher than I did, and many whose parents paid their way.
I got my GI Bill benefits when my husband died on active duty. So as his widow, I received his benefits for 15 years of his youth and 3 tours to Vietnam.
October 27, 2011 at 3:47 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
create (anonymous) says...
And I just today paid $140 labor to have one door installed and one doorway repaired. I didn't expect it to be quite so high. As a teacher, I would have had to work two entire 8-hour days for that.
As an aside, I don't know about you guys, but this drought has caused my house to settle and outside doors to not close. I wonder if others have this problem?
October 27, 2011 at 3:52 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Steve_Corbin (anonymous) says...
create,
Yep, those doors are a problem after this summer.
I surprised you found someone to do the job. The company I have used and like, has been so busy they have not had time to get to my small projects at the house. They have promised to work me in and with my past experiences with them, I am waiting. Have also been waiting on plumber and electrician. I take it as a good sign that at least some of them are doing a good business in this economy.
Getting a new energy efficient furnace this month @ about three grand. OUCH ! But we are hoping for lower gas bills after it is installed.
October 27, 2011 at 4:09 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
netloafer (anonymous) says...
Create
We've noticed it was tough getting one of our glass winter inserts into the door on our back porch the other day. We figured there must have been a bit of settling.
We just a young guy put some sod down in our back yard. We know him and like the quality of his work. He said he would do it for ten bucks an hour. We told him we'd give him 20 per and that he was going to be worth every penny. He did a great job. Had we tried to do it ourselves things might have seemed cheaper, but the quality would have been wanting and my level of frustration would have been a lot higher.
October 27, 2011 at 5:23 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
goodoleboy (anonymous) says...
Netloafer,
The days you speak of are gone. I am not saying it is right, or fair but more and more companies are requiring a degree of some sort just to get in the door, and if you don't have one, come promotion time get ready to be looked over for those that have one. There are always exceptions, but I see it often. Companies want assurances one can learn, and to them a degree is that assurance.
Regarding the government and loans, again, I fail to see the downside. Student loans cannot be discharged in a bankruptcy, the only way one can get away from not paying them is to leave the country, so the government and tax payers will get theirs, and a little interest to boot. You realize that many industrialized nations do much more than we do and are kicking our behinds because of it.
The girl at Wal-Mart is exacerbating her own situation, first off Emporia is not a good place to find a job as a college grad, in fact it is a death sentence. too many people get fixated on HAVING to live in a certain area, that is not the reality of life, you have to go where you can prosper, might not always be where you want, but that is life.
Steve,
I work at a Fortune 500 company, we can't hire enough people right now, same with others in our industry in this area. All degrees are not created equal, but for those that chose wisely or are willing to change vocations, the opportunity is there.
October 27, 2011 at 5:46 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
netloafer (anonymous) says...
Goodoleboy
I think we're agreed on the college education, but I think good companies are looking for people who can learn, but who can also take initiative.
When I was at FedEx I met a young manager at one of the NJ stations. He was Egyptian. He'd come to the U.S. and worked from place to place. One day he went to the FedEx facility looking for a job. There were no openings. He told the management he would come in and clean the station at night for free to show them the quality of his work. Management got the arrangment approved with corporate management and legal. In time he got hired, became a manager, then NJ district director, then VP of Mideastern operations.
I knew another guy who never graduated from high school. He started washing vehicles on the night shift. I met him in Memphis when he was Senior VP of domestic ground operations. He was one of the brightest, savviest managers I've ever met.
Good companies like FedEx are full of examples like that. And I think there are a lot of companies like that in this new global economy.
October 27, 2011 at 9:23 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
goodoleboy (anonymous) says...
I agree there are examples like that, but the travesty is that in a more competitive global economy companies won't be as inclined to make exceptions as they have in the past because more people have degrees. It's not right in my view, my degrees taught me very little of what I needed on the job from a technical perspective but the basics in accounting, economics and management have been useful. Most importantly though, they opened doors to job opportunities that were closed without that piece of paper.
The end result of this is that the companies will never have the luxury of the people you mentioned above, this is really too bad but it is the reality of the world we live in now, and why I advocate that kids should have access to funds that enable them to go to college without being crushed by the debt when they enter the job market.
October 27, 2011 at 9:47 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
netloafer (anonymous) says...
Goodoleboy
I guess I'm more optimistic than you about the global economy. Maybe my experience at FedEx spoiled me, but I learned that good companies are looking not only at education, but all the other things that make a productive employee. FedEx invested a lot of money in my training and development and the development of other people. They didn't do it simply because they were noble. They were running a business and wanted the best representative they could to sell, coordinate, transport, market, etc their service. The difference between making a profit or enduring a loss was almost always an employee. That's why the company motto was "people, service, proft." The idea was that if you treat people right and invest in their development they will provide the outstanding service your customers require and that in turn will create profits to begin the three tiered cycle all over again.
I think there are a lot of companies like that in this economy.
October 27, 2011 at 10:05 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
goodoleboy (anonymous) says...
"FedEx invested a lot of money in my training and development and the development of other people"
Which is why when I changed companies a few years ago, every place I had interviews at required a college degree just to get in door. I believe what you mentioned above is precisely the reason for this, the investment in employees is substantial.
As I said earlier, I don't believe that this SHOULD be the policy, but it is becoming more and more commonplace. There will always be exceptions, but those exceptions will be few and far between.
October 27, 2011 at 10:55 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
netloafer (anonymous) says...
I just don't believe that the only criteria for consideration of a potential employee's economic worth is grounded solely in a college degree. There are many components. When I wanted to go into management at FedEx I had to assemble an in depth resume in which I outlined how I had modeled flexibility, integrity, charisma, etc. Then I had to meet the educational requirements. For those lacking a degree, one year of professional experience equaled one year of education. Then I had to meet a management panel so they could question me, etc. If I passed, I was certified so that I could aply for management positions. I never once in a subsequent interview had anyone tell me I'd gottent the job based on my education. I always got the jobs based on the important qualities.
That's what I think good employers are looking for today.
Maybe I'm being myopic
October 27, 2011 at 11:14 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
goodoleboy (anonymous) says...
I don't believe it should be the only criteria either, but my point is that it is increasingly becoming that way, companies are just less inclined to gamble than they used to be.
For example, my father worked for railroad for many years, when he started all you need was a high school diploma, currently they have moved to requiring degrees for anything that is not track crew. Mind you this is but an example of the metamorphosis but I think it is safe to say that in many industries, it is a prerequisite to have a degree to even be considered is becoming the new norm.
I agree with a lot of what you say, I know at least one individual that can program like a mad man. But school bores him and so he is stuck working at a Subway.
In my experience in the job market, education gets you in the interview pile, THEN your qualities get you hired.
Perhaps I'm myopic too?
October 28, 2011 at 12:23 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Steve_Corbin (anonymous) says...
VOTE NO ON COUNTY SALES TAX !
October 28, 2011 at 7:17 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
create (anonymous) says...
Let's take a break and watch this wonderful blue collar success story coming from Williston, North Dakota.
BTW, I took down the info on Williston yesterday and gave it to the 26 year old kid who was helping my regular carpenter put in my doors. He was looking for regular work. I told him about how jobs were plentiful there. You know what he said? "I don't think I want to go there because I wouldn't know anyone there and I don't have any family there."
I was floored. 26 years old, not married, no kids. Free as a bird except for one thing. He's a mama's boy. Well, you know what? I got bitchy (again) and I told him, "You know what? There's a lot of guys in Iraq and Afghanistan who went there even though they didn't know anybody there and they didn't have a family there either."
I saw the carpenter smile and shake his head. A lot of guys aren't finding work because they want to be coddled. Well let them go hungry so the really hard working and diligent can find work.
Here, watch a success story from Williston, North Dakota. Wait until you see the text at the very end. God Bless this guy.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/...
October 28, 2011 at 8 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Steve_Corbin (anonymous) says...
create,
Now that it is obvious that our county commissioners are living in Lah-Lah land and want to raise the sales tax again I am thinking about scouting a location up north for a bar.
Would you consider a partnership in the venture?
Or at the very least, would you train the security staff/ bouncers? Your story is on MSNBC right now.
October 28, 2011 at 8:24 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
create (anonymous) says...
LOL Steve, oh were I a younger woman, you bet I'd go for being your business partner up there. Shoot, even when it was 40 below, we could warm up the toddies.
Yeah, I'd be very good at training security staff wouldn't I? Must be that certain je nes se quois in my character. Yeah, I do know...bitchiness, snap, hair trigger. LOL Ever know a gentle bouncer?
I wonder what the tax structure is in North Dakota? What the city and county taxes are like? What the price of a hamburger at Burger King is if they're paying $15 an hour to flip burgers. How much is a beer at the corner tap? Gas? Motel rooms must be going for a shameless premium.
Like I said, Steve, I wish I were a younger gal.
October 28, 2011 at 9:08 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )