Immigration facts
Friday, September 17, 2010
In April of this year, I had the privilege of attending the United Methodist Women Quadrennial Assembly in St. Louis. I learned some interesting facts about immigration. These facts have influenced the way I feel about immigration.
Did you know that:
- 80 percent of all farm workers are immigrants? And they are paid 5 to 6 cents for every grocery dollar we spend? Do we believe that every person has the right to a job at a living wage? Do we appreciate those who plant, grow, and harvest our food? Are these jobs that we would choose to do? The U.S. economy needs workers for various kinds of jobs. Even though unemployment is high, many of the persons who are unemployed are over-qualified and do not have the desire or the skills to fill them. Without immigrants filling these jobs, who would fill them? What would happen to our food supply and food costs?
- In one decade, 100,000 immigrant parents of U.S. citizen children were deported? Do we believe it is OK to break up families when they have crossed our borders illegally? Or do we believe the family to be the basic human community through which persons are nurtured and sustained in mutual love, responsibility, respect, and fidelity?
- According to the United Nations, up to 70 percent of women crossing the U.S.-Mexico border without husbands or families are abused, often by those they pay to help them and by the border patrol agents? Do we believe that abuse is justified because a person is an illegal immigrant? Or do we affirm the right of women (and all people) to live free from violence and abuse?
- In 2008 alone, nearly 45,000 immigrants were turned over to Immigration and Customs Enforcement by local and state law enforcement officers, many as a result of racial profiling? Do we accept law enforcement mechanisms that punish or intimidate those whose race, appearance, lifestyle, economic condition or beliefs differ from those in authority?
It is important that we consider these facts when we think about immigration reform. Our country was built on immigrants. You and I, unless we are Native Americans, are immigrants. Additionally, we can’t build walls high enough, deep enough or strong enough to keep societies apart forever. Isn’t the Berlin Wall sufficient evidence of that approach?
Isn’t it time we encouraged our legislature to create an immigration policy that fosters legal entry and establish guidelines for granting amnesty for those already here?
Myrna Stephens
Emporia
methusla (anonymous) says...
Oh my,
Here we go again !
I would like to know, just how much of what you learned was " Propaganda " with no basis in any real fact and only based on emotional feelings ?
Was there any mention of exactly how much the " Poor Illegal immigrants " cost or are costing the " Legitimate, Legal ", taxpaying citizens of the U.S. " , by way of receiving " taxpayer funded " government entitlement programs that were and are meant to be received by " Legitimate, Legal, citizens of the U.S. ?
I don' t imagine that fact ever came up during the " United Methodist Women Quadrennial Assembly in St. Louis.", at all.
Aparently, you have been or were propagandized into believing that illegal immigrants or immigrants are responsible for keeping costs of your everyday essentials " LOW " . Here is a fact for you to contemplate . Over the last two years " Walmart " has been raising prices on every item the sell, by 15% ! Does that sound as if illegal immigrant or immigrant labor is keeping costs low to your ?
The fact is, cheap or low cost labor does not keep costs low or lower costs.
The " Greed " that is driving the world of today will not allow cost to be low or be lowered !
Here is another question for you .
How in the world is making it easier for an immigrant to enter the U.S. or any country going to be of benefit to anyone except the " Immigrant ", Legal or Illegal ?
Do you really believe that there are enough jobs in the U.S. for everyone ?
I see " Immigration ", whether it be " Legal " or " Illegal " to be a real problem .
Especially, " Illegal Immigration " ! And I believe any kind of " Amnesty or automatic citizenship given to illegal immigrants who are already in the U.S. and number in the millions, would only compound an already out of control and serious threat to you, me and this country .
As usual this is just my opinion .
September 17, 2010 at 10:42 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
immigration good
illegal immigration bad
done
September 17, 2010 at 10:50 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
solong (anonymous) says...
Totally agree with seriouslyfolks, done.
September 17, 2010 at 11 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
yev_kassem (anonymous) says...
I don't think people are upset about the immigrants, I think people are upset about the illegal ones. The ones who come into our society and receive the benefits from our government without going through the proper channels or contribute to our society.
Also, it is unfortunate that 100,000 parents made a poor choice for their family by coming here illegally and now there kids are suffering. However, that haapens everyday in America. Kids sometimes suffer because a parent or parents make a bad decision. It is not fair to them, but it is life. And like I tell my kids, life isn't fair. The sooner you accept it the better your life will be.
So, 70% of the women who are paying someone to committ a crime are abused by the person committing the crime. Seems about right. Obviously, the person committing the crime is a shady character to begin with so I wouldn't put abuse past them. Is it right? Heck no, but you aren't dealing with the most moral person in the first place.
And State law enforcement only turned over 45,000 of the estimated 11 million illegal immigrants in the US and you think they are profiling? That is less than one half of one percent of the total illegal population. Profiling? Doesn't sound like anybody is doing the job at all.
Yes, you and I come from immigrants, but they were legal and the world has drastically changed since the Mayflower came over. There are laws in this country. Right, wrong or indifferent they are there and if you want to be part of our society you need to follow them. Plenty of people become citizens legally every year the rest should follow suit.
September 17, 2010 at 11:18 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
yev_kassem
Not to belabor the point, but I have serious doubts the Indians viewed the Mayflower passengers as legal immigrants....and since the King of England had not yet established a colony there he had no authority to declare them legal either.
Most Mexicans today are blood line descendants of indigenous people that were legal residents of North America long before Europeans ever heard of the place.
Just an observation......:-)
September 17, 2010 at noon ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
Did the native Americans that the pilgrims encountered when they got here even have laws?
That is a serious question because I honestly don't know.
From what I remember about the various tribes from back then is that if one tribe wanted some land from another one they would kill them and take it. If that is the case I don't think that they saw the pilgrims as coming here and doing things "illegally". I don't think you can really apply that situation to our current situation to justify illegal immigration. We definitely do have laws and those breaking them know full well what they are doing. I'm not saying what the pilgrims did was "right" but I doubt they broke any "laws". The law helps make things more clear like in our current situation. Illegal = not good. Legal = good. Quite simple really. What makes the situation more complicated is the fact that those breaking the law are human being and some of them are coming here for good reasons and we should(in my opinion) be sympathetic to that. Perhaps immigration reform is needed but it is clear that our current (federal)government is not going to do that nor are they willing to enforce the laws that we currently have. In most cases, you get what you pay for but with our government you get .... maybe ... a quarter of what you pay for ..... a third on a good day .... maybe.
September 17, 2010 at 1:21 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
blulitespecial (anonymous) says...
I never thought it made any difference whether"ancestors" got here by walking across the land bridge from Siberia or by longboat from the East.
September 17, 2010 at 1:23 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
REWBA (anonymous) says...
If one "tribe" (family) wanted to encroach on another "tribe's (families) territory, they would play nice with their neighbor and arrange a marriage between the daughter and the son of the two "Chiefs" (Family Patriarchs) and the two "tribes" (families) become one.
The problem with understanding indigenous culture of North America is the fact that the European church slaughtered the indigenous people, enslaved their children, stole their land, destroyed their stuff, burned their writings and rewrote the story of their savage ways. They did all this in the name of God. That's the way of the church.
September 17, 2010 at 1:45 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
reddog (K. B. Thomas Jr.) says...
I WOULD NOT BELIEVE ANYTHING THE UNITED NATIONS SAY!
September 17, 2010 at 2:02 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
We talk a lot about the rule of law but forget that the rule of law is an ongoing thread that doesn't just start and stop at our convenience. Our rule of law today was born out of English Common Law, which had much of its origins in Church law and Roman law, which in turn grew out of ancient customs and tribal law.
It is always being twisted and bent to serve new purposes and new masters.So our immigration law is not something that has been carried down from the mountaintop but something that has grown and changed from decade to decade. There is nothing to stop it from changing again except our intransigence.
September 17, 2010 at 2:10 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
8 posts and it turns into a church bashing thread. Whodathunkitpossible?
September 17, 2010 at 2:10 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
reddog (K. B. Thomas Jr.) says...
If you have time go to Videos for Alex Jones Immagration.
September 17, 2010 at 2:17 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
Well, I had to look up intransigence to see what it means, thanks bisquitboy.;-)
I somewhat agree with your statement but it depends on who "our" is. Some people want the current laws enforced, which in my opinion is understandable. Some people want reform, which is in my opinion also understandable. I prefer reform because I think it could address many of the problems that we have and be sensitive to the needs of future immigrants. The problem is that if "our" is refering to the federal government who is the only ones that can actually do anything about this, nothing is going to happen. No enforcement and no reform. They have already proven this to be the case.
September 17, 2010 at 2:22 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
reddog (K. B. Thomas Jr.) says...
Go to End Game Alex Jones, Illuminati, New World Order, North American Union, 911,
September 17, 2010 at 2:31 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
Ideally, the people who want the laws to stay as they are, and the ones that want reform, should work with the government (the only one with the authority to actually change the law) to write compromise laws that would benefit all of us. Sadly however, in today's' political climate, compromising on anything appears totally out of the question.
This leads to gridlock, frustration, anger, and nothing getting done to improve any situation. The government's inability to do anything about immigration reform (or anything else for that matter) is a direct result of our inability to compromise on anything....not the other way around.
Who was that cartoon guy that used to say...."I have seen the enemy, and he is us". The government is not to blame for our problems...we are to blame. After all we are the government So while both political parties rely on total domination of the other to ever move forward, we vote one party in then out and back and forth ad nauseam and nothing gets done.
But who are the political parties? Nothing more than the people who vote them into office......Again......We are the government.
September 17, 2010 at 2:47 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bloomsbury (SC DIXON) says...
It is widely accepted in scientific circles that the so-called “native” Americans migrated to this country across the Bering Strait. There were probably no indigenous people on the continent, certainly not the American Indian. But then you might research “Kennewick Man.”
September 17, 2010 at 3:06 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
REWBA (anonymous) says...
I think that as long as you can prove you were born on planet earth then you have a right to travel and or live anywhere on planet earth.
If you were not born on planet earth I suggest you hide your mode of transportation and keep really quiet. You really don't want earthlings visiting your home planet. Earthlings are really territorial and once they figure out how to get there, they will claim it for themselves, kill and or enslave your population, destroy all that once was your culture and rewrite the history of your planet to conform with their belief that they can do no wrong cause god is on their side.
September 17, 2010 at 3:20 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Steve_Corbin (anonymous) says...
OOOOOH, BRIGHT SHINY BALL !
September 17, 2010 at 3:28 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
marko (anonymous) says...
A comic strip character named Pogo. The actual quote is: "We have met the enemy and he is us". Pogo author, Walt Kelly, first used the quote on a poster for Earth Day
September 17, 2010 at 3:54 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
Thank you marko!
September 17, 2010 at 4:02 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mslater (Matt Slater) says...
Come on people, let's be politically correct here.
They are not to be referred to as illegal immigrants, they're to be called future democrats.
September 17, 2010 at 4:18 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
I personally would like to thank the
Republicans for pushing the Hispanic vote in this country over to the Democrats for what could be decades to come. Especially since Hispanics are the second largest demographic in this country. Now if the dumb old Democrats could just figure out a way to motivate them.
September 17, 2010 at 4:33 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
create (anonymous) says...
LOL Matt.
REWBA, that was a great post and I will repeat it.
"The problem with understanding indigenous culture of North America is the fact that the European church slaughtered the indigenous people, enslaved their children, stole their land, destroyed their stuff, burned their writings and rewrote the story of their savage ways. They did all this in the name of God. That's the way of the church."
Don't forget, it happened in Central and South America too, with papal documents presented to the indigenous people -- as if they could read Latin.
September 17, 2010 at 4:38 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
Immigration Reform ? I would like to know exactly what sort of immigration reform, would be appropriate and satisfactory to everyone concerned ?
I have read most of the present immigration laws that are now in place and cannot, really see anything wrong with them . Except the fact that the present immigration laws are not rigorously and forcefully " enforced " !
And the reason that the present, in place, immigration laws are not enforced with any rigor, force or zeal is because their is large amounts of money to be made by not enforcing the present, in place, immigration laws . In other words, if the in place, present immigration laws were enforced and the borders were secured like they should be, a lot of peoples' " Cash Cow Teat " would dry up, including a lot of Federal, State and Local government officials' " Cash Cow Teat " .
September 17, 2010 at 10:17 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
moderate (anonymous) says...
I think it's really disgraceful that, instead of using your brains to absorb the thoughtful commentary of this letter and responding in kind, most of you have descended to hotheaded rhetoric, name-calling and mudslinging. You should all be ashamed of yourselves.
September 18, 2010 at 12:22 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
romano1784 (anonymous) says...
Moderate, There is nothing to absorb from this article. Immigration is a good thing. It brings in new people from different cultural backgrounds. It introduces us to new experiences, merchandise, ideas, religions, debates, education, I think you can see where im going with this.
Illegal immigration is a different matter. I have said it before and I'll say it again. If you are here and you are illegal anything you say, do, think, touch, ect is wrong. You dont belong here. If you came here illegaly and your kids were taken while you were deported, you put yourself and your family in that situation. Blame yourself. If you are abused by a person "helping" you sneak into the country, you put yourself in that situation. True that there are many illegals that provide a service to this country, however a legal citizen can provide the same service.
Anyone else here sick to death of hearing that illegals work "so hard at jobs lazy Americans wont do?" I AM!!! I watched a series on immigration on MSNBC a couple months ago. They told what the immigrants made per day. Imagine my suprise when i find out some illegal punk in AZ makes more than me illegaly because he doesnt have to pay taxes. No, no. this article is junk, If you are illegal you are wrong. plain and simple.
America for Americans
September 18, 2010 at 7:43 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
tbluma (anonymous) says...
Myrna
I chose to respond to this without reading any other responses, so if I repeat some, oh well.
First off
If a baby born to an illeagal wasn't automatically considered a citizen there wouldn't be pregnant illeagals coming over here to drop a kid on our system, so you're right, let's change the law.
Parent not a citizen, kid not a citizen.
So yes, deport all off them.
I find it hard to believe that illeagals are paid 6% of every dollar we spend on food but it wouldn't surprise me. The sad thing is that a real farmer probably don't make half that.
Racial profiling is bullsh##.
I have to show my ID to buy beer,cigarettes, drive etc.
Why shouldn't someone who looks suspect have to?
If they're legal what the hell difference does it make?
We don't need reform we just need our gov. to follow the law that has been in place, for however many years, to enforce it.
Follow the law, immigrate leagally and speak ENGLISH.
September 18, 2010 at 8:06 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
tbluma
I am really not trying to bait you with this. It is a serious question.
If you choose to not listen to what anybody else has to say, why would you think they would choose to listen to you?
I wonder how many people did just what I did? I read the first sentence in your post and stopped reading.
September 19, 2010 at 4:36 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
tbluma (anonymous) says...
bisquit
The reason I chose to respond to her post without reading any of the others first was simply this.
I wanted to respond to Myrna without being being biased, influenced or pissed off by any other post than her own.
Simply put I wanted to answer her first without having other ideas changing the thought process she provoked.
After I posted mine I indeed read all of the others.
So maybe you can now read the rest of mine, I really don't care one way or the other.
September 19, 2010 at 9:08 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
My opinion on the matter is. If you entered the U.S. or any country by breaking or not following that countrys prescribed immigration laws, then you are a "Criminal, illegal immigrant " to begin with. If you as an illegal immigrant, commit a " Criminal act or break the civil laws, by what ever means, I.D. fraud, etc. of a country, while living working, etc. in that country, you are a " Criminal " and deserve to be punished to the fullest extent of the countrys' law/laws . Even, " Legal " citizens of a country must pay, in one way or another for breaking the countrys' laws. Why should an Illegal Immigrant be afforded any different treatment ?
Why is a person considered an " Illegal Immigrant " ?
Answer: Because the very first " Illegal " act they commited, was to enter a country by " Illegal " means. FYI, the term " Illegal " means doing something that is not " Legal/Lawful or not abiding by the Law ", period ..
And now there are some who want or insist on giving millions of " Illegal Criminals " amnesty . If that is the case, why not give everyone that has commited a " Criminal " act and who is currenty in prison in the U.S. " Amnesty " and set them free, upon society . Or better yet, why not just do away with societal laws and prisons/imprisonment for breaking the law, altogether and let " Chaos " rule the day .
I also agree with tbluma about a badly needed changing of the law that allows children born in the U.S., to an illegal immigrant/immigrants becoming an automatic citizen of the U.S.. If the illegal parent/parents of a child/children are deported then the illegal child/children should go also . However, this particular " flaw " in the immigration laws, is a very large part of the illegal immigration/immigrant problem . How many pregnant illegal immigrant women enter the U.S. illegally, already pregenant before they enter the U.S., just for the express purpose of having the child be born in the U.S. and becoming an automatic citizen of the U.S.?
And the idea of making it easier to immigrate " legally " to the U.S. is also a somewhat " insane " idea .
Some people need to wake up and realize that the U.S. cannot support the entire " Legal " or " Illegal " immigrant population/peoples of the entire world . Hell, the U.S. can' t or is having a very hard time supporting the " Legal " citizens of the U.S., without borrowing money from China, etc. to be able do so.
September 19, 2010 at 9:15 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
tbluma
Thanks for the explanation.
And now the truth be known....I already had even before I wrote the post.....I lied....:-( ....my bad...:-(
Of course as I'm sure you already know I didn't agree with it but now I understand why you did it that way.
September 19, 2010 at 9:56 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
tbluma
It's not even that I disagree with all of it. There are many problems with our current immigration system and the enforcement thereof. I'm not going to take the time right at the moment to do a point by point with your post. Suffice it to say there are some issues we are not far of on....others we are miles apart.
But basically you seem to be unhappy that the laws we already have are not being enforced...while at the same time you are unhappy that the anchor baby law is enforced. I again, recognize some problems inherent in the anchor baby law.
But that law (constitutional amendment actually) was passed for reasons far removed from anchor babies. I think the
constitution should be tampered with only with great reluctance and with much deliberation. I would much rather see a comprehensive overhaul of the entire immigration law. But that won't happen because of so many peoples fears that their own ox might get gored in the rewrite. And that includes just as many American citizens as it does immigrants.
September 19, 2010 at 10:16 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
doggage (Anthony Hartman) says...
Most illegal immigrants from Mexico are being pushed out of the life and work they've known for centuries: agriculture. Why? ADM, Monsanto, and the industrialization of agriculture. By who? Us. Where are they coming? Here. Why? Because American businesses are HIRING THEM! Wake up people. If they didn't have jobs and economic opportunity here, they wouldn't come. Guess what. This has been happening for centuries in America and for millenia in the world. Before the Asians and Mexicans there were East Europeans, before that there were Italians and Greeks, before that there were Irish and Germans and Chinese, before that there were slaves, before that there were indentured servants.
Oh, and your parents were among them. And unless your last name is Cooper, Wright, Underhill, etc. there's a pretty good chance that when your ancestors came they were thought of and treated exactly like YOU are treating illegal Mexican immigrants now. Every single time that a new crop of people came there has been talk that "this group is different" or "THIS group isn't assimilating/melting" or "this group doesn't have the ability or desire to learn English." Guess what, you're wrong. Almost 90 percent of second generation immigrants do not even speak the language of their parents' origin country. Wake up people. Read a little history. Widen your horizons. Stop deluding yourselves and reading only forwarded emails.
You can pass all the laws you want and pat yourselves on the back, but I have news for you: it won't matter. As long as there is a huge disparity between bordering or proximal countries and employers are willing to hire, they'll come. They always have, and they always will.
We hold these Truths to be self-evident,
that ALL Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.
-Declaration of Independence
If you have a problem with that, which many of you apparently do, then you don't understand what our forbears fought for, and you don't understand what this country is about.
I hope ever to see America among the foremost nations of justice and liberality.
-George Washington
Read that or our Bill of Rights and then make comments justifying the abuse of illegal immigrants.
September 19, 2010 at 10:23 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
create (anonymous) says...
biscuit,
You're right about the fear lawmakers have about their own interests getting lost in a rewrite of immigration laws. That's why they just skirt the issue and pay it lipservice once in awhile. As a result, border states have tremendous problems. For Arizona's problems with illegal immigrants, I blame McCain. How long has he been a senator and never addressed his state's problems with this?
I don't have a problem with immigrants who come here legally. I myself am only a second generation American. My grandfather went to Hawaii in 1892 as a legal laborer for the Dole sugar plantation. He brought his talents and abilities with him and did many good things with them just as many immigrants today do -- the legal ones. For example, a large percentage of our medical professionals come from other countries, India in particular.
Like many of you, I don't have a problem with legal immigrants, just the illegal ones.
September 19, 2010 at 10:37 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
doggage
Those American businesses you spoke of were some the oxen getting gored that I was referring to in my post. I question the six percent figure used in the original article but what ever percentage of the dollar is accurate you can bet your butt that it is low enough that the producers that are hiring them are making a good living off it. If not the farmers and businesses would not be hiring them.
September 19, 2010 at 10:54 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
tbluma (anonymous) says...
doggage
You're right about us being immigrants, however, we weren't pandered to, babied or illegal. We came over, legally. We became citizens, and learned to speak ENGLISH.
I've no problem with LEGAL immigration.
What I do have a problem with is all of the people in this country that are standing around with their hand out because they're to damn lazy to work or follow the law, illegal or otherwise.
And yes I consider anyone who doesn't want to speak ENGLISH lazy. They expect us to cater to them. And the cost of dual language comes right out of the tax payers pocket ( which they aren't).
Yes most second generation immigrants don't speak their home language but it was because their parents insisted on everyone learning the language of the country they wished to belong to. They chose to asimilate and become one with the USA. Which I sure as hell don't see happening today.
So therefore I don't think it's too much to ask of immigrants now.
Come here leagally, learn to speak ENGLISH, become a citizen and fly the American flag, otherwise stay home.
September 19, 2010 at 11:10 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
tbluma (anonymous) says...
bisuit
I agree the constitution shouldn't be tampered with. If it hadn't been we wouldn't have this problem now.
You don't suppose it had anything to do with slavery do you?
doggage
As to your last sentance.
I don't think anything I've said, or any others, has in anyway justified abuse to anyone, legal or illegal.
September 19, 2010 at 11:24 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
tbluma
Of course it had every thing to do with slavery. That's why is was passed. But are you suggesting that had we not tampered with the Constitution back then we would have been correct in denying citizenship to all former slaves and the children of those slaves?
September 19, 2010 at 11:34 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
doggage
Please read the first Federal immigration laws were passed and enacted around 1924 and then have been added to and modified over the years .
As for how immigration and immigrants were viewed and handled before the immigration laws. I suggest you go to the USCIS web site and read sec. 101.1/101.2 Presumption of Lawful Admission . This deals with immigrants who entered the U.S. before 1924, when the first immigration laws were passed and enacted.
I also suggest you take a look at sec. 101.3,101.4, 101.5, also under the Presumption of Lawful Admission section.
I also suggest you take a look at the following USCIS " lawful " admission requirements. sec. 211.1, Visas . As you may know, almost every country in the world requires visitors or immigrants to have apply for and aquire a visa for that country and abide by that countrys' immigration/immigrant laws and that countrys civilian laws.
I just don' t understand why some people think the immigration/immigrant laws of the U.S. should be any less strict. Even if most of the immigrants, whether " Legal or Illegal " happen to be from a country that just happens to share a common border with the U.S. or any other country !
As I have said before, the U.S. does not have enough jobs and cannot support millions upon millions of immigrants ... " Legal or Illegal " .
It is my opinion that, that present, in place, immigration laws are not being enforced strongly enugh . And that means every aspect of the immigration laws. Hiring of Illegal Immigrants as well as rounding up and deporting Illegal Immigrants, to satisfactorily securing the Nations borders, etc.
The fact of the matter is, the U.S. is the most leanient country in the world when it comes to immigration laws, " Illegal Immigrants " and enforcing its own immigratiion laws .
September 19, 2010 at 11:57 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
I haven't read any of the posts on this thread, nor do I plan to, getting tired of the same old arguments. Just wanted to point out to Myrna:
This mythical skyrocketing of food costs without illegal immigrants has been debunked over and over again. Labor costs are not the major factor in food prices. You stated "It is important that we consider these FACTS". Please, if you are going to present arguments, truly do some research first, and present FACTS, not opinions. And, it might be helpful to present all the facts - not just those that agree with your views. People are also aware that there are many other problems and costs - that you conveniently left out of your arguments.
Since you started off your debate with a falsehood, I pretty much lost interest in reading much of the rest of it very closely.
September 19, 2010 at 12:16 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
This paying of extremely low wages to immigrants not only just takes advantage of them, but keeps wages depressed for the rest of Americans to where, as you say, they "don't want the job". If it 1) paid a decent wage, and 2) paid more than they can get by drawing unemployment for 2 years, you'd see more Americans taking many of these jobs. And, as all the studies have shown, you'd see at most a very small increase in prices. Besides..... back in the day, when these jobs paid more (comparatively), such as slaughter houses, before they started importing Somalians to keep the wages down..... food was still affordable. And much cheaper than it is today, all the low wages notwithstanding. You're being hoodwinked by the fatcats - its all just a bigger profit margin to them.
September 19, 2010 at 12:24 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
tbluma (anonymous) says...
biscuit
pronounce the word assume slowly.
No I'm not advocating that we should have denied former slaves or their children the right of citizenship.
However a admendment wasn't necessary it could have been done different. One right that time has made for a lot of wrongs along the way since.
September 19, 2010 at 1:08 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
tbluma
And that is exactly my point. Instead of tampering with a constitutional amendment, why not set down at the table and see if we can't address this issue without such a drastic act? And while we were at it we could look at some of the other oxen that need gored.
By the way, all of this conversation could take place without making little reference to making an A@@ of ourselves.
September 19, 2010 at 1:20 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
In my opinion, that constitutional amendment was made (and rightfully so) specifically to right some greivous wrongs. And, at a time when the country was wide open with land for the taking, I doubt anyone had a problem with the broader coverage. But, I think it should have been more specific to what it was intended to apply to. And now I think it needs to be corrected, (or re-amended). AND... times, and circumstances, have changed. JMO.
September 19, 2010 at 2:14 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
doggage (Anthony Hartman) says...
tbluma et. al,
I agree we can't continue to have illegal immigration, but passing a law that says we're going to deport all of them isn't going to work. If we were really serious about dealing with this problem we would lock up employers who hire the workers. When ICE raids factories, how often do you hear about the bosses/managers/HR people going to prison. I'll tell you: almost never. I recall hearing about ONE time when the people who were responsible for doing the hiring actually faced any kinds of consequences. Another thing that would help would be to abolish the minimum wage. Then if Americans really wanted to do these jobs that illegal immigrants are hired for, they could do so legally and we could collect taxes on the wages. Do you really think that's going to happen? Do you really think the Chinese and Mexican restaurants in town are going to stop paying people under the table and hire American waiters and cooks? Do you really think we will ever get to the point where we even threaten to thrown owners of businesses into jail for (even knowingly) hiring illegal workers or failing to pay taxes on their wages? It'll never happen? Why? We all know why. It's the same reason that we've had cheap, illegal labor for centuries. We want railroads built. We want cars built. We want food picked. We want roads paved. And, most importantly: "we" don't want to do it. That's the single, most important reason there are so many illegal, future "WEs" around. That and the fact that we have a free, liberal, democratic government.
Dual-language programs like the one at Horace Mann Magnet in Wichita are a boon to the children who are lucky enough to go to them. I don't mean this as an insult, but I think we can all safely assume that you don't know what the purpose of a dual-language program is. Dual-language programs were popularized in Quebec to teach English L1 kids French and French L1 kids English. Dual-language programs are just as much aimed at the native English speakers learning Spanish.
September 19, 2010 at 3:15 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
doggage (Anthony Hartman) says...
Also, you are completely wrong about immigrants learning to speak English. Do you really think that immigrants are unable to realize the importance of speaking English? Do you really think that they don't realize the importance of language? If you immigrated to China you would be able to travel, order food, and live well because even Chinese people know the importance of using English. There are now more people learning English in China than there are English speakers in the United States. Yet you're saying that Mexican immigrants don't understand the utility of English? Please. They may have difficulty learning English, but I'm sure no more difficulty than you would have if you moved to rural Mexico to work in a meat-packing plant. Look at the graph on this page and tell me again that immigrants don't learn English: http://www.migrationinformation.org/U...
If you bother to actually read that, I'm sure you'll find something wrong with it. I happen to have seen multiple articles that have talked about the very high percentage of children of people who immigrated to the US who do not speak their parents' language. Can you find even one that talks about a low percentage? No. I know you can't. So what are you worried about again? Enlighten me with statistics.
Now, if you're trying to say that speaking more than one language is a bad thing, I have nothing to say to you.
For those of you who say that immigrants are using up all our social services, give me a break. Most of the immigrants I know are healthy. So roofers, factory workers, migrant farm workers, construction workers are the people who are costing us all billions of dollars of health care costs? They seem like a pretty healthy bunch to me. I think you'd be hard pressed to find any FACTS that contradict that. http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/artic...
I'd sum up your argument as this: Yeah we all immigrated, but these immigrants are different. These immigrants are different because they don't try to speak English and assimilate. Sure, Americans have been saying that about sequential groups of immigrants for centuries and they always end up learning English. Sure, we are a country of immigrants. But THIS time it's different! I'm telling you, THIS time they really aren't going to. I don't have any facts to support my argument. Therefore, these immigrants should stay home.
September 19, 2010 at 3:15 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
There are several problems with throwing those that hire illegal immigrant into prison.
1. They think they are hiring people that legally have the right to work here. People that are here illegally aren't open and up front about it. They get fake identities and trick the companies into believing they are legal to be hired.
2. There is no help for employers to verify the legal status of prospective employees(that I know of, I could be wrong but from what I heard this week there isn't any). If a company did try to go after people who they suspected where here illegally, they would logically start checking those that are in the highest percentage of people who are here illegally which are from Mexico and Central and South America. Logically that makes sense, right? Can you imagine if they actually tried that? Oh man, there would be discrimination lawsuits faster than you could say "Logjam Rules!" or "He's burnin' wood again, yeah!". I mean seriously. The people who want to go after the company "big wigs" just have a social agenda to knock down the evil capitalists a few notches.
3. If the people running the companies were sent to prison they would have to hire temps to run the companies and the temps are mostly illegals and probably don't have the skill set or the experience to run a company like the ones you are suggesting we "go after". This also punishes the poor scumbag Americans who also work at these places like me. We folks "out on the floor" know that the company needs us and most of us realize that we need the people in the office too in order to keep the company going and keep the cash flowing so we can put food on the table. If you punish the evil capitalists you punish us too.
September 19, 2010 at 3:44 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
doggage (Anthony Hartman) says...
So let me get this straight: you're saying the reason IBP had a service to transport workers from the border to Emporia was that they really had no way of verifying the legal status of the workers. Hmm...I'm having trouble wrapping my head around that. I have the same difficulty practically every time I read or hear an in-depth report about an ICE raid. Invariably, there's one or two HR people or managers who everyone in the community knows was responsible for all the hiring of illegals. And invariably they are never prosecuted. It's racism, plain and simple. The business owners are good ol boys or upstanding members of Rotary or whatever. Those nasty illegals. They're the problem.
Wise up people. Whatever problems you choose to blame for our inability for centuries to deal with this "problem" are all symptoms of the underlying problem: we would rather pay illegal immigrants to do the jobs we don't want to do and then complain about "those darned illegals."
It has been EXACTLY the same for centuries and it's not going to change. If you really think there's a problem with illegals but refuse to deal with that reality, nothing will change.
September 19, 2010 at 3:56 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
The company's I know about that would be affected by your war on evil capitalists hire people in the correct way and assume if people have proper I.D. and a Social Security card that they are legal to hire. At times some have been found out(usually turned in by a "friend" that knows their true identity)to be illegal. Like I said above, if the employer would have gone after those that are "suspect" because they aren't assimilated you and your war on capitalism allies would sue the begeebers out of the company and then they would have to fire me and my buddies in order to pay for the law suit.
If you read my above posts you will see that I am for immigration reform. I believe that we need to look at better ways of allowing people who want to come here and work(and hopefully assimilate and respect ALL the laws) do so legally and safely. This can't be done however by just excusing illegal behavior because "the real fault lies with the evil capitalists."
September 19, 2010 at 4:22 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
doggage, you have used the phrase that is an absolute " dogma " to the illegal immigration/illegal immigrant problem .
And that phrase is, and I quote, " we would rather pay illegal immigrants to do the jobs we don't want to do and then complain about "those darned illegals."
Now this sort of " propaganda " is not only untrue or has no basis in fact. I know this to be true from first hand experience . I, myself, have done and worked at jobs, that even illegal immigrants would not even do, because it was to heavily labor intensive, physically demanding and would destroy a person both physically and healthwise.
What sort of a job was that, you ask.
It was being a " Lugger " loading trucks with " swinging meat " at IBP, loading trucks with " Quarters " of Beef, that weighed between 180 and 300 pounds carried physically on your shoulders and back into refrigerated truck trailers, placing them on meat hooks for upwards of 8 to 12 hours per day and at times 6 days per week. There were no " Illegal immigrants of any kind that would do that job. But I did it because I had to feed, clothe and keep a roof over my familys' head abd " pay " for my childrens education. I also ended up with three crushed or compressed vertabrae in my cervical spine, which I now have arthritus in, I ended up with severe degenerative wear in my knees which I now have severe arthritus of the knees, ended up losing the first rib, just under the " Right Clavical " , because carrying that amount of weight for so long everyday, 8 to 10 hrs. per day, compressed the " Rigjt Clavical " down toward the first rib, pinching the nerve bundle that went to my right arm, causing the lose of feeling and control of my right arm. The rib had to be surgically removed in order for me to regain the feeling and use of my right arm and hand.
We complain about " those damned illegal immigrants. " , because of the millions of dollars they are costing " legal " taxpayers, thru fraud, fake I.D.s', depressed wages, etc. and thinking along with others that they have the same rights as legal citizens of the U.S..
So, please don' t say that those poor ole illegal immigrants, no matter what nationality or culture they may be, are, will and are the only ones who will do the jobs " WE " as legal Americans, will not do. Because that is simply not true or based on fact.
September 19, 2010 at 6:09 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
seriouslyfolks
Suggestions, please !
September 19, 2010 at 6:11 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
On reform?
More work visas.
Tighter boarders.
I'm kinda in the middle on this one.
I see a need to enforce the law and I see a need for immigration. I guess we need to look at our need for migrant workers and help them to get here legally and safely. Supposedly a big part of the problem is that there aren't enough visas or something available for the amount of workers to come here that are needed or something. :-)
Perhaps we need more legal ways for them to come here. We need to consider that, in my opinion. I haven't really researched it too much as it doesn't really peak my interest enough to put my time into it. Plus I've been pretty busy trying to psychoanalyze people on the EG forums. ;-)
I totally understand where you are coming from on this and though we may not totally agree I will not just dismiss everything you say and call you racist because of it like most other people that are for reform do. =-)
September 19, 2010 at 6:33 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
tbluma (anonymous) says...
doggage
I would like to see you prove that IBP actually had a bus that ran here from the Mexican border. Show me a graph on that one.
If your graph on generations speaking English is correct. How come we need to have dual language in so many facets of life? The schools and government offices are the first that come to mind.
I would think that as long as IBP was here (based on your bus theory) we would be well in to the 2nd or 3rd gen.
We shouldn't need dual language at any school or teachers with english as a 2nd language qualification ( for which some were let go last year because they didn't(supposedly))
If as you say, immigrants realize the importance of learning English, show me the proof. I see the proof of the opposite every day, hear it every day, read it in the paper every day.
September 19, 2010 at 8:02 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
tbluma (anonymous) says...
seriously
Right on about the evil capitalists not hiring the poor illegal or getting sued.
Arizona is a good case in point.
They want to enforce the law, but noooo!!!
that might involve asking someone for an ID, visa some such.
Yeah I can see your analogy, go after the illegals and doggage ( or his /her kind) would see you in court
September 19, 2010 at 8:22 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
seriouslyfolks
In other words do a better job of enforcing the immigrant/immigration laws and requirements that are already in place !!!!
Instead of setting back and saying, Oh well, Que Sera, Sera (Whatever Will Be, Will Be) !
September 19, 2010 at 8:29 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
seriiously,
Sorry about the psychoanalize " crack ".
I was a little upset and taken aback by some of the comments.
September 19, 2010 at 8:32 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
No problem methusla. We all have our days. I apologize for mine.
September 19, 2010 at 9:22 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
justaflushaway (anonymous) says...
come on meth, the trucks that hauled "hanging meat" were called trams, would you not agree?? and why were they called trams? was it because it had a rail called a tram located in the roof of the trailer? would you not agree??. and wasnt a overhead rail system inside of each of the ibp beef sulatering plants equipped with the same type of railing system, would you not agree??? wasnt the purpose of all the rail system in the plants and in the trams to make it a fast way to load and unload the hanging beef easier and quicker that man handling the beef and also cut down on dropping of the half's, would you not agree that so far my statements are somewhat true??
would you be able to say about what years that you would handle the halfs of meat into or out of the trailers?
for you see meth , I drove for IBP, hauling NOTHING but swinging meat to many of IPB plants, including Emporia, West Point Council Bluffs and Western Kansas, and never did I see being done what you said you done 8 to 12 hours a day, And I did know the purpose of the overhead rails and trams what was happening while the trailers were at the doors. would you NOT agree that you may have forgot that part of moving meat inside the plants and into the trams. Ohh, and wasnrt a "S" shaped item called a meat hook attached to the back leg of each half and attached to the over head tram so that the meat was moved along the overhead trams right into the area it was needed to go, Would you not now agree that most of the injuries were caused because of not watching the beef , horsing around or slipping on the slick floors in the coolers? would you not agree with most of the comments that I have made reference to?? I am a very old ""swinging meat hauler"", Armour, ibp, tyson, would you not agree that I might know a little of what the hell I might be talking about??
thank you GBU/GBA
but I do agree the illegal mexicans need head south to where the hell they came from,take their kids and anyone else who came from there with them, and yes , I said ILLEGAL MEXICANS..
September 19, 2010 at 10:10 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
stryker1_25 (anonymous) says...
Listen Here, Myrna. I'm not an immigrant. I was born in Emporia, thereby I am an American. I may be the descendent of immigrants, but I myself am not an immigrant.
The only thing that needs to be done about illegal immigration is stricter enforcement. I invite any law enforcement agent to come check my Citizenship at any time. It doesn't bother me at all because I'm a 100% Legal United States Citizen.
Theres a right and a wrong way to get into this country. I'm sorry that hurts some peoples feelings, but thats the way it is.
September 19, 2010 at 10:15 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
REWBA (anonymous) says...
"There is no help for employers to verify the legal status of prospective employees(that I know of, I could be wrong but from what I heard this week there isn't any)."
http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/usci...
A lot of Americans believe that employers should be mandated to use e-verify but the meat packing industry and other heavy users of cheap illegal labor fight any law that makes them use the free and easy to use tool.
September 19, 2010 at 11:09 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
REWBA
I also questioned that statement because I felt certain there was a government agency set up to help verify. But since I had already upset a couple of people every time I posted anything yesterday, I just let it lie. Thanks for the info.
justaflush
I remember those swinging beef trailers well. The first job I found right after getting out of the Navy was steam cleaning those nasty things before they were re-loaded. This was back when Armour still owned the place and the cleaning was done with the trailers outside. Brutally hot in the summer....freezing cold and covered with ice in the winter.....then after we finished with the cleaning we had to coat the rails and hundreds of S-hooks with something like vegetable or mineral oil. After we got all done we had to wait to see if the inspectors would approve our work. Occasionally they didn't then we got to do it over again for nothing.
It was one of those jobs people like to say Americans are unwilling to do. But I did it in all kinds of weather. The same outfit that cleaned the trailers also did the shagging then. Eventually I finagled my way into a shagging job which eventually led to driving eighteen wheelers which I did until I went to college a few years later.
I wonder about something though. I've been a liberal all my life since that day in high school when the KKK blew up that church that killed those four little black girls in Birmingham. So being a liberal, the way many people on here talk, I should have been at home on the porch waiting for my welfare check instead of working so hard. Or could it be that liberals work just as hard as conservatives?
September 20, 2010 at 4:31 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
Several years ago we had a kid a temp agency had sent to us working for us. He was an Hispanic kid......spoke fair English and claimed to be from Brownsville, Texas. He was homesick and talked a lot about his wife and baby. I asked him one day how he had managed to end up in Emporia, Kansas of all places....so far away from the family he missed.
He looked at me kinda like he thought I had fallen out of a tree and replied......"IBP brings us up here."
September 20, 2010 at 6:16 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
justaflushaway
Your are right about the " trams " that were owned by IBP and driven by drivers working for IBP, but however those drivers of those trams did not load the "trams" themselves and those trams were of the " tall " depressed " belly " type of trailer ! Would you not agree !
However, our loading crew, loaded both " trams " and " Standard " trailers of the trucks that were not the tall, " tram" type IBP trailers and there were more standard trailers loaded with hanging meat than tram trailers, these standard trailers owned by independent trucking companies had to be loaded by physically carrying the " front " and " hind " quarters of beef into the trailers and hanging first the hind quarter on a " s " hook suspended from the ceiling of the trailer and then hanging the front quartter from an S hook that was hooked into the hind quarter of beef. Thes standard trailers had no provisions for just pushing a " trolly " into a trailer on a " rail " like the " tram " tailers had .
You may have driven the " tractor " of one of the tram trailers . But I' ll bet you never had to " load " or " unload " hanging meat, at an IBP plant by " Physically " carrying the " quarters " of beef into and out of the " Standard " trailers, not the trams you speak of ! That would have been " gravey" work compared to loading and unloading a " standard " trailer of swinging meat. Don' t presume to call me a liar, as I had to and did physically carry quarters of beef into these " Standard " trailers in order to load and unload them. That is why very few people would do the job of loading and unloading swinging meat from a " Standard " trailer.
Oh, and most of the time I worked for IBP, I never even saw a truck driver of any kind allowed to even back his trailer up to the loading and unloading docks, only under extreme circumstances,let alone allowed inside the IBP building itself. Most of the truck drivers were required to enter IBP thru a security gate and then required to park their loaded or empty trailers in a certain area, unhook from the trailer and them leave and then an IBP " shag " driver would take the tailer to the required loading or unloading "bay" or dock door and all of the loading and unloading was done by IBP plant/facility personel. The only people that were allowed past the security post, into the IBP facility itself, were employees of IBP or FDA inspectores, who were required to show their I.D. cards before they were even allowed to enter the IBP facility .
So, justaflushaway, don' t presume to tell or even insinuate that I do not know what I am talking about or am lying about how things were done at IBP. For I worked there for a number of years and experienced and did it, first hand .
Thank you very much ! Have a nice day.
September 20, 2010 at 7:40 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
Oh, and justaflush . Before you call someone a liar, maybe you should or should have done or experienced or walked in their shoes before labeling anyone a liar or insinuate they don' t know what they are talking about !
You have just, by your post, attacking me as a liar, have made me think that you are one of those people who lets their mouth out run their brain, most of the time. JMO
Again, thank you very much ! Have a nice day.
September 20, 2010 at 7:52 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
dalelinn (Dale Linn) says...
I agree with Methusla wholeheartedly. Also it would be nice if we could put the whole world on welfare (what a lot of illegal immigration amounts to),but it's already helped bankrupt our country. Moderate, perhaps I'm tired of seeing more of our own citizens without health insurance. There's nothing like a bleeding heart, feel good about yourself seminar, nevermind ALL the facts.
September 20, 2010 at 7:52 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
Oh, justafluch, the years that I worked as a lugger at IBP, was 1973 to 1975 and then I transfered to the tempering coolers as a " pusher ", which was almost as hard a job as lugger, but not quite and did that job from 1975 to 1977 at which time I be came a " driver " for an independent trucking company .
Thank you very much.
September 20, 2010 at 8:03 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
The trailers I remember from back in the Armour days were the type methusla describe. The rails had holes through them just big enough for the S-hook to be inserted by a worker doing it by hand.....while the other end of the S-hook held a side of beef.
September 20, 2010 at 8:14 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
biscuit, that is entirely correct biscuit, that is the way standard trailers were set up. Rails in the ceiling with holes in them for the hooks. The tram trailers were set up entirely different. the trams had tails in the ceilings that would accomodate the meat trollys .
Thank you and have a nice day.
September 20, 2010 at 8:27 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
That E-Verify is cool but in order to use it the companies have to offer a job to the person and the person has to accept(as seen in the video "how to create a case"). This can't be used on prospective hires or temps because that is called "pre-screening". What is wrong with "pre-screening"? It seems to me that a company has to break the law(without their knowledge) to even use E-Verify. http://leimobile.com/wp-content/uploa... They have to offer a job to the person(who may be illegal to hire) the person(who knows if they are illegal to hire or not) has to accept the job, and then the employer has 3 days after the person starts the job to check the documents that the new hire gave the employee. At this point the company has already unknowingly broken the law, if the law was broken and many think they should be imprisoned immediately for that. WOWYZOWY! I can see how that's the answer to the problem. Let's let the people that are knowingly break the law off scott free and bring down companies that are providing jobs for people that have families to feed.
What if the documents submitted are stolen(which they usually are)? They are good documents so they will come back clean.
What happens when E-Verify catches someone that is here illegally? What do you do with that person? What do you do with the employer? They both have already broken the law. Did the company break discrimination laws because they checked someone that wasn't white? Is it even legal to check someone who isn't white. Aren't they opening themselves up to lawsuits if they start checking people who aren't white.
"He looked at me kinda like he thought I had fallen out of a tree and replied......"IBP brings us up here."
IBP kidnaps people and brings them here by force? Did you help him escape? If not that's just cold. If it is true that The Company Formerly Known as IBP forces people here against their will then the place should be shut down but I'm not sure I buy that one.
When all these companies are brought down, what do we do with all the American citizen families that depend on that employment for things like food and shelter? More government dependence? The government ain't doin' so hot these days in case you haven't heard so I really don't think that is going to work out so well. Plus they will lose a lot of "income" when companies that pay taxes and employ people that pay taxes stop paying taxes because the company is no more because the ones running it are in prison. Yeah, your bring down the evil capitalist plan just has too many problems with it.
September 20, 2010 at 8:33 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
You are welcome methusla......And you have a nice day also. :-)
September 20, 2010 at 8:35 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
This is Emporia! Of course we'll ALL have a nice day! =-)
September 20, 2010 at 8:37 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
seriouslyfolks
What has gotten into you. Would it be asking to much for you to get off your high horse.
He never said he was brought here by force....he never implied he was brought here by force. I never said he was brought here by force....I never implied he was brought here by force.
Since you have chosen to make that an issue, I will elaborate further on what he did say. He said IBP (along with other meat packing companies) recruited employees heavily in the towns near the border like Brownsville. He said they then arranged transportation and sometimes provided rent money for a week or so. I had the impression the people brought here could be from either side of the border. I never had any impression at all that they were forced. I hope you are now happy.
People that cross the border into the U.S. and work illegally are breaking the law....I said that.
The people that hire those people and transport them here to work are not breaking the law........seriously folks said that.
What makes the difference is just another mystery of the conservative mind that I can not quite get my mind around.
September 20, 2010 at 8:55 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
And here is something I have been wondering about for a long time.
How the heck are the people that unload off of the, I believe it is called " El Condor " bus lines, bus that stops at the Walmart parking , with bag and baggage been verified as " legal or Illegal immigrants ". There are usually all sorts of vehicles there to pick them up and take them to " who knows where ", along with their bags and baggage . One day a week or so ago there was a young child left at the bus unloading spot in the Walmart parking lot, with bags and baggage, I am presuming, he got off the Bus and no one else was with him that I could see .
Is this Walmart parking lot spot, a regular, sanctioned " El Condor " Bus stop or is it just a drop off point for " Legal and Illegal immigrants ?
And there are other " unmarked " buses that stop there also and off load people, with bags and baggage, also !
Am I the only one that finds this a little bit out of the " ordinary/mainstream " happening. At times there are quite a number of people, bags and baggage, being dropped of these Buses, at different times of the day and possibly night.
Seems a little odd or suspicious to me !
Are U.S. immigration laws being violated or broken ? Could be, I don' t really know !
And therein lies the biggest problem with allowing " foreign " Trucks, Buses, etc. to freely enter and use the arteries of the U.S. . Namely the millions of miles of interconnecting roads and highways.
And the need for sticter border and immigration laws enforcement and penalites enforcement.
September 20, 2010 at 9:06 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
"The people that hire those people and transport them here to work are not breaking the law........seriously folks said that."
They may or may not be breaking the law. They can't use E-Verify to check and see if they are breaking the law until after they have made an offer for a job and the person accepts the offer. Then the company hires them and then they can use E-Verify to see if they have already(unknowingly) broken the law. Ignorance is no excuse to break the law, I know this, but I still have a little more sympathy for those that break the law unknowingly that those that break it knowingly and go to great lengths to do so.
I have stated that I am sympathetic to toward the people that want to come here and work to feed their families and pursue "the American dream"(which is capitalistic by the way) and think that reform could help the number of people allowed to do so and the number who want to come closer to being the same. I'm trying to be sensitive to the needs of immigrants, our needs for immigrants, and our need for the rule of law. It seems that my position "upsets" both sides and I'm cool with that because it shows that I'm in the middle which is a position I'm rarely in. :-)
September 20, 2010 at 9:24 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
Several years ago 60 Minutes ran a program documenting IBP's practice of recruiting homeless street people in the big eastern cities and transporting them to one of their plants in Iowa. These people were primarily U.S. citizens...but also primarily bums.
IBP would give them pocket change, load them on a bus for Iowa, and put them up in motel rooms until they got their first paycheck. Unfortunately. many of them never stayed long enough at work to get a paycheck...some never showed up at work at all.Instead they returned to the streets from whence they came. Except this time it was the streets of small town Iowa......not the mean streets of New York and Philadelphia. It was a clash of totally different worlds and small town Iowa was over-whelmed and unhappy.
I only bring this story up to make the point that IPB, and other meat packers, are driven every bit as much by their constant demands for labor as they are by their desire to be a good citizens and neighbors.
So then the question arises.....If they need so much new labor all the time, and there are so many Americans wanting these jobs....why can't the two get together?
September 20, 2010 at 9:28 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
create (anonymous) says...
seriously folks,
Are you living in la la land? Are you that much in bed with big business that you look the other way or refuse to know what they are doing with regard to employing people?
biscuit is absolutely correct about how IBP, Tyson and others have been recruiting from border towns. It has been going on for years. In fact, once packing houses were being raided by federal agents and getting fined heavily for employing undocumented workers, Tyson's great interest in employing the Somali people was that they were legal. They could then get rid of the undocumented workers they had brought in from the border towns. What were they afraid of? Because they knew they were breaking the law!!!
That bit of information and more came out during the great Somalian debate that took place on these forums then later at the meeting that took place at White Auditorium. What did I get for all my research? Name calling.
Again I say, I don't have a problem with employing people who are here legally. But big business will have their way, one way or another. There is too much money at stake, and that is what it all boils down to.
September 20, 2010 at 9:40 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
"I have stated that I am sympathetic to toward the people that want to come here and work to feed their families and pursue "the American dream"(which is capitalistic by the way) and think that reform could help the number of people allowed to do so and the number who want to come closer to being the same. I'm trying to be sensitive to the needs of immigrants, our needs for immigrants, and our need for the rule of law."
seriouslyfolks
I agree with that statement 100 percent (including the part about capitalistic). So why are you always assuming that I am out to destroy this country and our way of life. I actually have a couple of ideas about why you believe what you do about me. But I would rather here it from you.
September 20, 2010 at 9:45 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
justaflushaway (anonymous) says...
meth, PLEASE FORGIVE ME FOR CALLING YOU A "LIAR" for I was never on a plant site, or maybe it was because I was and dont remember anything.
Kinda like those trips down south. the big billboards always facing towards mexico, I dont remember those either,, I also dont remember that ibp would have housing, and white vans that would pick the mexicans up in the morning to get them to work, buy their meals, and at the end of the week, van rides, housing, food would all be deducted from their paycheck, funny how a person forgets, and well I just dont remember, go ahead call me a liar,
but I do agree the illegal mexicans need head south to where the hell they came from,take their kids and anyone else who came from there with them, and yes , I said ILLEGAL MEXICANS
September 20, 2010 at 9:56 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
It's nothing new for you two or three(rewba) or four('enry) to gang up on me so I'm used to it(or is it "use to it").
There is no doubt that some companies do things that are shady there are some that try to do things on the up and up where people get hired that shouldn't and the company doesn't know until after the fact. You can't even check with E-Verify until after the fact. Why? Why shouldn't the employer be able to check everyone who applies for a job and all temp employees? That would be great and then the companies that so many want to "take down"(dang evil capitalists) would truly have no excuse. They could even take a laptop down to the boarder with them and check all those that they are recruiting. They would have no excuse and the government could close down all these companies that employee people like me so I can feed my family. You would win. I can only guess that the reason E-Verify can not be used for "pre-screening" is because of some bleeding heart liberal reason. For the life of me I can't think of a good reason why "pre-screening" wouldn't be allowed, can someone enlighten me? I've been asked for my DD214 prior to being offered a job. I had no problem with them verifying my veteran status prior to an offer of employment. What's up with no "pre-screening? I don't get it.
Let the dog pile resume.
September 20, 2010 at 10:07 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
seriouslyfolks
Your response has gone a lot further towards confirming my thoughts than you will ever know. I'm sorry you have to feel that way.....but the fact that you do is not going to change what I think, nor is it going to cause me to just go away. I will go away again some day, but it won't be for that reason.
This post in no way presumes to speak for the other three members of the evil foursome.....only for myself. If you would like to meet sometime and discuss this over a cup of coffee, you know who I am and how to get a hold of me. It's up to you.
September 20, 2010 at 10:43 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
I should have added that this problem with us has nothing to do with E-Verify or immigration reform. seriously and I both know that.
September 20, 2010 at 10:46 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
I don't want you to go away again if you don't want to. I'm thinking I need to take a break. Maybe someday I will have a few moments to stop by and chat in the real world. No hard feelings from me toward you three. I just have different opinions than you. It happens. So this will be my last post for at least ................ 3 minutes. I promise.
The R Dog
September 20, 2010 at 12:54 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
justaflushaway,
You are forgiven . I will not nor should I call you a " liar " as I do not know your actual experiences . And I agree, whole heartedly with your belief that all illegal immigrants should either go or be forced to go back to their own countrys' and follow the lawful and correct procedure for entering another country. Or even better yet fight to make their own country a better place, instead of trying to benefit from someone elses sweat and blood !
September 20, 2010 at 1:05 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
seriouslyfolks, my friend,
I am not ganging up on you, but I would disagree with you about illegal immigrants soul purpose of coming here illegally, being to pursue the American Dream. I believe that an " Illegal Immigrants" soul purpose of coming here illegally is to " Steal the American Dream " from the " Legal U.S. citizens " and those immigrants that have taken, do take the time and are taking the time and effort to immigrate to the U.S. in order to pursue the " American Dream " in an hosest, legal and acceptable manner .
I also believe that an " Illegal Immigrants " soul purpose is to steal the " American Dream " or as much of it as possible, from those natural American citizens who have worked, sweat and bled to achieve the American Dream and make that Dream available to all those who want to achieve the American Dream, in a legal, honest and lawful manner, as a legal, honest, lawful citizen of the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA .
What makes this whole situation so " deplorable " is the fact that " businesses ", " individuals ", etc., are not helping matters by hiring " illegal immigrants " and most of the time paying them in cash " under the table " and a lot of these businesses are owned and operated by " Illegal Immigrants " themselves, as well as " Illegal Immigrant " familys' and family members helping other " Illegal Immigrants as well as their own family members " to illegally enter the U.S. by sending money " back home ", with which to pay for forged documents, transportation, etc. to illegally enter the U.S. !
Now, does everyone understand the huge scope of the problems that " Non enforcement " of the present " illegal immigration laws ", the lack of border security and yes, even our own governments' lack of dedication and resolve to solve the problem is, has been and will continue to be ?
And making immigration easier, amnesty for illegal immigrants already here, making children born to illegal immigrants in the U.S. or giving illegal immigrants already here " instant " citizenship will not solve nor aleviate the problem.
Simply put, there are not enough jobs nor enough taxpayers to support the " legal " citizens of the U.S., let alone those who are in the U.S. " ILLEGALLY " !
September 20, 2010 at 1:32 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
I don't completely disagree with you methusla. There is no doubt a large chunk of illegal immigrants that are only here to steal but I believe that some legitimately have good intention in coming here but do so illegally because it is just easier and they are encouraged to do so. This can be addressed by enforcing the current laws. I believe this to be true. However simply enforcing the current laws doesn't address our need for migrant workers or us being the "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free" type of folks.
I see both sides of this issue. We need law enforcement and that include enforcing the laws prohibiting employers from hiring illegal immigrants and we need to make sure that our labor force has the migrant workers it needs and we should encourage and help those that want to come here legally and continue to obey the law.
Immigration good.
Illegal immigration bad.
September 20, 2010 at 2:19 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
seriouslyfolks,
A few questions, please .
Do you believe the quote "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free" that is inscribed on the Statue of Liberty is as valid today as it was when it was inscribed on the Statue and just how many of the " Huddled masses " do you believe that this country was, is or able to support ?
You must remember the Statue of Liberty was given to the U.S. by France and dedicated on October 28, 1886 .
And you must remember that the first immigration law was passed and enacted by congress in 1924, the same year the Statue of Liberty was sanctioned as a National Park .
And does the inscription on the Statue of Liberty mean that anyone can come to the U.S., " ILLEGALLY " ?
I personally, very much, doubt it.
And times have much changed since the inscription on the Statue of Liberty was put there. The inscription actually reads, "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me.
I lift my lamp beside the golden door."
Now, I also ask this, do you really want all those mentioned in the second line of this inscription, mainly, " The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. "
wretch·ed adj \ˈre-chəd\
Definition of WRETCHED
1: deeply afflicted, dejected, or distressed in body or mind
2: extremely or deplorably bad or distressing
3a : being or appearing mean, miserable, or contemptible b : very poor in quality or ability : inferior
Now, I will also ask, which of these definitions of the " wretched " should be freely admitted to the U.S., " Legally " or Illegally " ?
The inscription on the Statue of Liberty should not be taken " Literally ", " Figuratively " or " Metphorically " it is just an inscription put there by a foreign person in the first place.
September 20, 2010 at 3:24 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
Another point seriouslyfolks ... immigrants " ARE " encouraged to come to the U.S.. But, only by using any and all lawful and legal means available to them and in certain numbers and to must meet certain requirements.
Immigrants are welcome in the U.S. as long as they immigrate to the U.S. legally and properly . That is they way it is done all over the world, as it should be. Proximity of Countrys' or their borders to one another should not negate any of the worlds', countrys' laws for anyone.
Even a countrys' diplomats and leaders must follow certain protocals when visiting or entering another country .
September 20, 2010 at 3:32 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
WOW methusla. Remind me not to come to your house if I am in desperate need of help sometime.....especially if I am deeply afflicted, dejected, or distressed in body or mind. That's cold man!
September 20, 2010 at 3:39 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
Oh, biscuit, I have helped plenty of people, even some I did not like or know .
But, what really gets my goat, is how literal, a lot of people take the inscription on the Statue of liberty.
Besides there is a big difference between " desperate " need, " need " and just plain " taking advantage " of something, someone or someplace .
Besides I was pointing to and referring to definition 3 a of the definition of wretched, mainly, appearing mean or contemptable .
You, or anyone does not have to come to my house and if you did come to my house uninvited with the intention of taking over and insisting you would have the same rights as I, in my own house, then you would not be welcome . It really doesn' t make that big of difference to me. I am pretty much a " loner " anyway . If and when I do go to someone elses house, businesses, public place or country I do so respectfully and follow the rules set down or requested by them to follow, if you do not, then you are the one being disrespectful, no matter the situation . I can be a good and helpful friend or I can also be an enemy you would not want to have as an enemy, also.
September 20, 2010 at 4:03 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
Ive had enough of this, feel sorry for the immigrant discussion .
Besides my legs are killing me and making me irritable .
September 20, 2010 at 4:12 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
REWBA (anonymous) says...
legal disclaimer: REWBA is not a gangbanger and refuses to participate in a gang bang of anyone especially seriously "R" folks cause we're army buddies and army buddies got each others backs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBUOMk...
September 20, 2010 at 4:27 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
blulitespecial (anonymous) says...
"...Of course, the U.S. press has completely ignored the story…They excoriate Americans for their desire to simply defend their own borders, but give Mexico a pass for building a wall to keep out illegal aliens...."
http://www.examiner.com/immigration-r...
September 21, 2010 at 2:35 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
I think every country in the world should build a wall against all of its neighbors. In fact its neighbor should also build a corresponding wall with the first country....two identical walls if you will. Country's bordering oceans should even build floating walls.
Then we would not have to worry about pesky little things like exchanging thoughts and ideas, sharing cultures, or even sharing in trade. Hell, we wouldn't even have to worry about ever seeing the human like creatures that were rumored to live beyond that wall.
Then we could all huddle in our own little spot basking in our xenophobic ignorance of each other forever.
September 21, 2010 at 4:21 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
Would someone please remind me why there was such outrage about what happened on 9/11/2001 .
After all weren' t the persons that commited these acts, posing as, " Immigrants " that were only exchanging their, thoughts, ideas and culture with us gullible, trusting Americans, who are standing by the " Golden Door ", welcoming all " immigrants " with open arms .
Please remind me again, why American lives were put in harms way fighting a war in Iraq and Afganistan ! And what has these two wars achieved, except loss of American lives and limbs .
And does anyone believe that such an event that took place on 9/11/2001 could not or will never happen again, especially with the mind set that many people seem to have of, " stop picking on the poor ole immigrant " or " Welcome anyone and everyone into the U.S. with open arms, aboquets of flowers, the same benefits and rights of U.S. citizens and as automatic U.S. citizens, no matter what illnesses, bad intentions, Drugs or weapons they may be carrying ?
Does anyone not believe that there are still people, governments, ideologies and whole countries of people that want/desire to do Americans and America harm ? Do you believe that a sick/ disabled person or anyone could not carry with them a way to do harm to Americans or America or should they be automatically allowed to enter/immigrate to America/U.S. without any screening what-so-ever ?
And biscuit, if you come to my house, no matter what shape you are in, and have the intention of taking over, intending to insist that you have the same rights and privilages that I have, in my own house or intend on doing me or mine any harm, then you had better not come to my house and the same goes for anyone and everyone, because when you come to my house, you will be expected to abide by the rules of my house.
And biscuit, you have a tendency to jump to conclusions and read into a comment what you prefer to read into a comment, especially if it does not suit your way of thinking or frame of mind at the time .
Now, I am assuming " someone " will respond with a cute, bombastic response and that is fine, just make sure you haven' t read something into my comment that is not there nor intended to be there !
September 21, 2010 at 6:42 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
methusla
My last post was aimed at blulitespecial's post not yours. But then you have a tendency to take everything that is said about anything to be personally aimed at you. So unless you are in a position to know what was in the mind of blulitespecial when they wrote their post, you are not in a position to know if I was jumping to conclusions or not.
I am however sorry I did not address the post to blulitespecial to keep from offending you.
September 21, 2010 at 7:26 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
I do really regret that so much of what I say seems to offend others posting on these boards. But I, like most of you, intend to keep stating my thoughts and my beliefs even if they are often at odds with the thoughts and beliefs of others. I believe I have as much right to do so as anybody else on these boards.
September 21, 2010 at 7:48 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
marko (anonymous) says...
right? maybe, more likely privilege.
September 21, 2010 at 9:41 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
"Do you believe the quote ...is as valid today as it was when it was inscribed on the Statue ....?"
Yes I believe that that is at the core of the spirit of the U.S.A. Does it need to be done better and the laws enforced? Yes.
"and just how many of the " Huddled masses " do you believe that this country was, is or able to support ?"
I haven't a clue. That is one of the things that people smarter than me needs to look at. I mentioned it above(I don't know how clear I was on that point). We need to look at our needs for migrant workers. We need to try and figure out about how many want to come here a year or whatever.(No idea how to do that) We need to only let the ones in that we allow in, that means tighter boarders but not closed boarders.
"do you really want all those mentioned in the second line of this inscription, mainly, " The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. "
Well, I'm glad you asked this question. The word wretch is a word that is very near and dear to my heart. Three people come to mind when I think wretch.
The first one is Saul of Tarsus a persecutor of the very early church, better known as the apostle Paul. He wrote some words I think of often "Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!"
The second is John Newton, a slave trader in the 1700s. He penned these words, "Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound, That saved a wretch like me."
The third person I think about when I think wretch is me because I can relate all to well with the above two dudes. I believe there is hope for the wretched. It's the "righteous" I think is hopeless that is unless they come to the realization that they are also wretched.
September 21, 2010 at 10:06 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
seriouslyfolks
Every once in a while you dig into some inner reservoir and pull out something that just blows me away....This is one of those times. That was beautiful!
September 21, 2010 at 10:35 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
irishemporia (anonymous) says...
seriously: Very well said.
September 21, 2010 at 10:42 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
Very good seriously, that is one opinion of what the inscription means .
Here is what I believe that the inscription means,
It means the United States is a refuge where the poor and oppressed of the world can make new start.
Of course, we had a lot more room and no immigration laws in 1876 when the inscription was made.
"Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free" - Back then the poor, specially those of oppressed groups, of Europe were packed together in dark, dank slums called ghettos. The inscription says let them come to America where they can breath open air as free people.
And now some of the immigrants coming to the U.S. are creating those very slums they left, right here in the U.S..
"The wretched refuse of your teeming shore" - all the people you don't want who you are ready dump into the ocean.
And now , it means your criminals, terrorists and miscreants as well !
"Tempest-tost" -- the Atlantic Ocean is a rough crossing for the poor and oppressed. Can't afford first class. Those who have had the bravery to make the journy.
And now the " illegal immigrants " don' t even have to be or most are not " tempest tost " , as all they have to do is walk across a free and loose border.
The last line means that the light is on so as to welcome these refugees night or day.
And most of the those comming toward the light are not refugees, but " Illegal immigrants " .
.
And if the inscription is going to be taken " Literally " by everyone in the world and everyone in the U.S., then why not do away with immigration laws all together, instead of insisting on immigration law reform and a more secure border ?
Do you or do you not want immigration laws, stricter enforcement of those laws and a more secure border ?
Make up your minds people, you can' t have it both ways, either you are for immigration law/laws, strict enforcement of those laws and a more secure border or you are for letting all immigrants enter the U.S. unresticted, feeling sorry for them, no matter what, even if it means you/we must bear the cost of them being here and defrauding the public assistance programs that you/we are paying for/ funding by our paying taxes.
continued
September 21, 2010 at 11:59 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
continued
It is impossible to understand what you want, you flip from one view and flop to totally different view, and do it quite often. Please make up your minds. You/we are all entitled to our opinion, but some of you change opinions, views, etc. so often it is hard to keep up or comprehend what you want.
This particular " Wretch " is not preaching or professing denying everyone admittance to the U.S. ! But is preaching and professing that something needs to be done to control who, what, why, when, where and how someone enters or is allowed to enter the U.S. or any country that is not their own.
As I said before, this is a totally different time, age and circumstance than when the incription was put on the Statue of Liberty .
And if this debate is going to turn into a religious or faith discussion, instead of a dicussion about what should be done about " Immigration law/enforcement " , " Secure borders " or what should be done about it, I am done. And almost every debate/discussion seems to take the turn toward religion and faith . So if we are not going to stay on topic and start preaching, religion, faith and converting, then I am done with this particular discussion .
September 21, 2010 at noon ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
"This particular " Wretch " is not preaching or professing denying everyone admittance to the U.S. ! But is preaching and professing that something needs to be done to control who, what, why, when, where and how someone enters or is allowed to enter the U.S. or any country that is not their own."
I honestly think that we are on the same page on this issue. I believe the answer is as you state in the above quote. We need more control and enforcement of the laws. I believe we can allow more people in legally for migrant work than we currently allow and watch them closer and that will fulfill our need for workers and enforce the law at the same time. If we are letting them come here legally to work and watch to make sure they don't break the law this will make it easier to enforce the law in general. If they are here legally they are required to have proof of that fact and if they get caught breaking the law they've blown it and we say "Bye bye!"but they had a chance. In order to do this we have to stop the flow of illegals which means tightening the boarder. I think we can stop the flow of illegals AND allow more immigrants to come here legally. I don't think that is flip flopping. Realistically though, I think that how things are now is how things will remain. I don't think there will be reform or more enforcement. There may be amnesty and that will instantly(and wrongly in my opinion) magically get rid of illegals but in ten years or less we will be right back in the situation we are in now. So we can talk about this all we want and come up with neato speedo ideas but the reality is little or nothing is going to change because our government is impotent, they don't have the power some wish them to have and they don't have the power some fear they have. Well they kinda do have the kind of power people should fear seeing as they got all those missiles and tanks.
September 21, 2010 at 12:49 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
skraps (anonymous) says...
I really wonder whether all those yelling for immigrants to learn English ever attended school of any sort. I guess the "illegal immigrants" somehow infringed upon your right to learn to speak and write English properly? Or maybe it's that you're just so caught up in blaming the "illegal immigrant" for your own misfortunes and the problems of America as a whole that you were just unable to notice? I've got Spanish and English down! Now if I could just get a redneck dictionary, all would be right in my world.
September 22, 2010 at 1:06 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
skraps
One question. Why did you learn Spanish, or is Spanish your native language and you had to learn English ?
And if you had to learn English, why ?
And it is a requirement for all " Immigrants " who wish to, " Legally " enter the U.S. or become a U.S. citizen, be able to speak discernable ( understandable ) English and to read and understand a discernable amount of English . This is a requirement set forth in the USCIS ( immigration law/requirements ) .
I am wondering if you ever attended any sort of school and just how much you are willing to pay and sacrifice for the sake of the " Poor ole illegal immigrant " ?
Good grief, how many languages are we as natural U.S. citizens going to have to learn to speak, just to accomodate those who immigrate to the U.S., either " Legally " or " Illegally " .
Ich wünsche dir einen schönen Tag,
Хорошего дня,
Bonne Journee !
Now do you know what I just said, in three different languages ?
If not, do you see my and others point about immigrants learning to speak an understandable language of the Country they are immigrating to, in which they wish to work and live. And it makes no difference whether their native countrys' language is German, French, Russian, Spanish, Swahili (Kiswahili ) or what ever. It is just plain respectful, shows courtesy and common sense to learn the language of the country that anyone intends to visit or immigrate to, in order to work or live there either for a short time or permanently . And when immigrants enter the U.S. " Illegally ", it seems that they never leave, unless they break a law, besides the immigration law, and then they leave and head back to their own country to excape any kind of " Punishment " for their cirminal acts while in the U.S. or any other country.
Whether you or anyone else wants to admit or realize it, " Illegal Immigrants " who do not want to " Assimilate or become part of the U.S. culture and learn the language , or do not want to obey " all " of the laws of the U.S. ... are in fact costing the " Legal " immigrants and " Legal citizens " of the U.S. massive amounts in the way of jobs and money .
September 22, 2010 at 8:07 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
skraps (anonymous) says...
I learned Spanish and English simultaneously to answer your question. My father didn't want me to learn Spanish. He thought that it would be better if I only spoke English. But thankfully, I know both. Research the benefits of knowing multiple languages. I know I have.
And there you go again, putting words in people's mouths. Re-read my post. I never said immigrants shouldn't learn English.
And no, I have no idea what the heck u just said. (Except maybe the last one which I don't know if that was French or Italian because it wasn't right in either language.) But the beauty of it is that I don't have to know what you said anymore than you have to learn Spanish. Why you ask? Because it is a free country and I speak English. Very well I might add.
And the whole part about "discernable" English... LOL! I know people that don't speak anything BUT English and I still can't understand them.
So keep going on and on and on saying the same thing over and over again... You're like the Energizer Bunny. But you won't get an argument from me about illegals and immigrants speaking English. Even though they are two completely different issues, I mostly agree with you.
September 22, 2010 at 8:52 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
I would prefer people not break the law.
September 22, 2010 at 9:06 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
Blame someone else and get on with your life.
- Alan Woods
For some reason that just seems to fit this topic.
September 22, 2010 at 9:15 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
skraps (anonymous) says...
Seriously
I'm with you. Anyone caught present illegally, anyone promoting illegal immigration, and anyone hiring illegals should have consequences.
September 22, 2010 at 9:21 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
And I also agree. I am not condoning breaking any laws including those that address immigration policy. Nor am I condoning not learning English. Any time you refuse to learn the language of the country you are living in, you condemn yourself to live as a second class citizen.
I am however troubled by the over-heated rhetoric and accusations directed at an entire group of people because of the actions of a few. And I think such rhetoric does nothing to help find any solution to some very serious problems.
September 22, 2010 at 9:34 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
"I am however troubled by the over-heated rhetoric and accusations directed at an entire group of people because of the actions of a few."
Well the rhetoric may be over-heated but it is because people are frustrated and the reason they are frustrated is that they shouldn't be dealing with this problem to begin with. The federal government has made it clear as of late that it is their responsibility to stop this problem(but they refuse). We are paying them to do so and they are not. "few"? Really? Oh man. That is the understatement of the year. If you honestly believe that the problem is just a few people then I completely understand why you think this problem is pretty small and people are just making much ado about nothing. By not seeing the problem in it's proper scope you are not going to find any better solution than those with the "over-heated rhetoric". The only way to find good and fair solutions is to not overestimate the problem and not underestimate it. Over the last decade or so I've personally witnessed way more than "a few" people get caught here illegally. It's a pretty big problem. I believe a solution can be found that is both compassionate and has the highest respect for the rule of law. I also believe that nothing is going to change and the over estimating and underestimating of the problem will continue and we will continue to pay the government to not do their job.
September 22, 2010 at 10:06 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
The few I am referring to seriously is not the illegal immigrants. They are way more than a few. The few I am referring to is the few that come here solely to engage in criminal (other than the illegal entry), activity and or to destroy us and our way of life. That is the counter-productive "bombastic" rhetoric I am referring to. Don't make me go back and bring up the numerous examples of it that have been used here lately. Once again, you are mixing apples and oranges. Many illegal immigrants...only a few here to specifically destroy us and our way of life. See the difference?
September 22, 2010 at 10:25 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
As I recall the last administration also recognized the problem and refused to deal with it....and the one before that, and the one before that. This thing didn't just start when Obama took office no matter how much some people would like to make us think that it did.
September 22, 2010 at 10:29 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
I'm not one to blame everything on one president or even one party. I kinda got really sick of people doin' that back around 2004 or so. I never brought up any particular politician or party but I can imagine that if anyone did or does bring one up it will be the one that controls all branches of government right now since what we are talking about is happening right now and if anything is to be done about it it will have to start either right now or sometime in the future cuz we can't really go back in time and do anything about it then, if you get my drift.
September 22, 2010 at 11:44 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
skraps
What I told you in German, Russian and French, was " Have a nice day " !
and " Bonne Journee " is French and correct for " Good day or Have a good day " and also " Have a nice Day !
Perhaps you were thinking of " ! Bonjour,
which is also French for " Good morning " .
September 22, 2010 at 3:15 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
seriously, biscuitboy,
I know that what I am about to say may be an impossiblity viewed from your prospective ways of thinking. But, you are both " somewhat " right in what you say .
Seriously, you are right when you say that there are more than just a few " illegal immigrants " in the U.S., and that few just happen to number in the millions and according to the numbers, there are but a very few of the millions that are caught !
Biscuitboy, you may be right, when you say " only a few of the " illegal immigrants " that come to the U.S. have the thought of commiting a criminal act on their minds, when they come here !
But I would ask you this, Exactly what number of the crime committing " mind set " illegal immigrants is to many or what number is an acceptable number ?
I would really like to know !
As I have said before, if laws are not going to be enforced, including immigration laws and no one is going to enforce them, and those who break the laws are not going to be caught and punished for breaking the laws ... then why do we have laws in the first place and are we as " Legal " U.S. citizens the only ones who are expected/required to obey the laws and be punished for breaking the laws ?
You see, the above statement is exactly why I believe that any sort of immigration reform is/will be a waste of time and change nothing, especially the loosening of the " Legal " immigration requirements, any form of amnesty or automatic citizenship . sort of immigration reform, There are always going to be those who will enter a country illegally, simply because they do not want to follow the rules or obey the laws ! I believe that stricter, more forceful enforcement of the existing immigration laws will accomplish as much or more than any sort of immigration reform .
You, see I have trouble understanding or accepting the " Give the poor ole " illegal immigrant a break and feel sorry for them and give them eveything they ask, want or demand " , attitude of a lot of people in this country and on this forum.
Is it because people in this country just cannot see or comprehend or believe what " illegal immigration and immigrants " are doing to the U.S. and other countrys' and costing the " Legal " citizens/immigrants of the U.S. and other countries ?
The results of " illegal immigration " is right there, in front of everyone to see and feel in their pocket books and everyday life and yet the sympathys of a lot of people lie with the illegal immigrants ... who are law breakers, from the very start of there journey to knowingly and with planning and in most cases with forged/fraudlent papers, to enter the U.S. or any country " Illegally " !
September 22, 2010 at 3:57 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
skraps (anonymous) says...
Meth
I think the proper way to say have a good day in French is "Bonne journée!" The accent happens to be very important in other languages.
September 22, 2010 at 4:53 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
skraps (anonymous) says...
"There are always going to be those who will enter a country illegally, simply because they do not want to follow the rules or obey the laws !"
I really had to laugh out loud at this one. Yes, Mr. Methusla... People from other countries wake up in the morning and say, "Hmmm... Let me jump this border real quick since it's illegal in that country and I'll get a good little adrenaline rush by risking the threat of being arrested, shot or worse. Sounds like a fun thing to do today."
Do you know what it is like to look into your child's eyes when they ask for something to eat and not be able to do anything about it? Do you know what it is like to want to work and be unable to find a job to provide for your family? Do you know what it's like to look at a sick child and not know how to get them the medical treatment they need? Would you not break a law or even risk your life to save your child? Yes, illegal is illegal all day, every day. But I would do ANYTHING necessary to provide basic needs for my kids. Would you not?
People don't just risk their own lives and the lives of their families like that unless it's an absolute last resort. And, I can already hear it, so let me clarify right now. I'm not saying grant all illegal immigrants a blanket amnesty, nor am I minimizing the laws that these people have broken. But would a TINY smidgen of empathy kill you? Compromise requires both sides looking at the situation from the other side of the fence. The problem is that no one will do that...
September 22, 2010 at 8:13 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
skraps
The answers to your questions are, in order in which they were asked is, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes and No, if it meant taking a job that a " legal " citizen had or needed to provide for their family.
And do you think that, possibly you or an illegal immigrant are the only ones who may have wondered when or where or how your childs next meal would be provided or how you or the illegal immigrant was going to explain to their child that they may not have enough to eat today .
Well I have been in that very situation more times than I would care to count ! And I did not break any laws to eventally provide for my family nor did I become an " Illegal Immigrant " to do so .
And why should I have any empathy for those who have no empathy or respect the laws of this or any other country or for me or the other legal citizens of this country or the immigrants who do immigrate " legally " or the immigrants that took the time, had the respect for the law, to go through the proper proceedure to come to the U.S. or any other country ?
As far as compromise goes, those who enter the U.S. or any other country illegally, do not want to compromise on anything, they only want it all their way without any cost to them what so ever .
They have proven that, time and time again by protests against immigration laws and by knowingly and willingly entering the U.S. and other countries, they are the only ones responsible for being " branded " as an " illegal immigrants ", by violating the " Immigration laws ", which is a " Criminal " act, therefore making them a criminal in the eyes of the " LAW " !
And yes, I do believe that everything a person does is done with some amount of thought given to the act, before doing it, especially if it involves doing something they know full well is going to be " Illegal/Unlawful " . Especially if they do everything they can to avoid being caught and punished for commiting the " Illegal " act . Also, the idea of obtaining forged papers and committing " Public Assistance/Entitlement" fraud, which are also " Breaking the Law " and a " Crime ", just goes to prove, just how much thought and preperation was put into the act of " Illegally Immigrating " to the U.S. or any other country .
You want Empathy and compromise for the " Illegal Immigrants ", why ? Are they not Criminal Law Breakers, Should Law Breakers, not be punished according to the Law , Are not Legal Citizens of the U.S. punished when they break the law ? And why should " Illegal Immigrant Law Breakers " be treated any differently than a " Legal " U.S. citizen who is expeted to abide by the law of the U.S. ?
Empathy, Compromise for " Illegal Immigrants " are you kidding !
September 22, 2010 at 11:59 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
skraps
My point exactly...just better stated. But you just as well give up. I have.
September 23, 2010 at 4:05 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
meth
I will never be able to accept a position that has no apparent empathy for a significant percentage of the people on this planet...no matter how many times you throw out the same old arguments.
By the same token, you have made it clear that you have no interest in hearing my arguments either.
That being the case, I see nothing to be gained by us continuing to bait and anger each other on this issue. Therefore I have no intention of continuing to argue with you about it. I will be glad to discuss immigration problems and how to deal with them with any body that is interested in discussing the problem. But when there is no room for discussion....there is no reason to debate.
September 23, 2010 at 5:55 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
skraps (anonymous) says...
biscuitboy
You are exactly right. I give up too.
September 23, 2010 at 8:12 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
biscuit,
You are right about arguing or debating with someone who is blind to what is right there in front of them and happening everyday .
Example, two doors north of of where me and my sister live a group of immigrants from El Salvador purchased the house, moved in and siince that time, the young man who lives there leaves in his fancy vehicle, is gone a few days, returns and unloads " something " from the vehicle and places whatever the " something " is in the garage, and does this, with a somewhat nervous, suspicious demeanor. Then after his trips and the vehicle unloading ritual. There begins to be a fairly steady traffic flow of people, comming to, entering and leaving the house, garage and property during all hours of the day and into the evening . I have also seen fancy cars, BMWs', Mercedes, Lexus, Accura, Lincolns' , Cadillacs', etc, etc. and some of these vehicles have out of state license plates on them . They stay, but just a few minutes and then are gone.
Just yesterday, Sept. 22, at around 2:45 P. M., while I was out in the yard picking up trash, an Accura with, Kansas plates pulled in the drive, two occupants got out of the car knocked on the door of the house and then went to the garage with the young man from the house, stayed for approx. 2 to three minutes then left. A few minutes later a Mercedes, pulled into the drive of the house, I could not see the person or persons in the vehicle, as the windows were very dark, with a different license plate on it, I believe it was a Missouri plate, they did not get out of the vehicle, just honked and again the young man in the house came out quickly, said something, gave something to the cars occupants and then the car quickly left.
A few minutes after that a black BMW, four rather nasty, looking men, whom appeared to be of the Latin persuasion, pulled up to the curb, this time no horn honk or anything, however the young man of the house hurried out to the car, leaned into the passenger side window, backed out of the cars window and the car left and it had Texas plates on it. And there are numerous vehicles of all types that come and go to this house and garage that have Lyon County and other Kansas County license plates on them.
And this sort of thing goes on at this " House " all the time.
Is there " Drug Dealing or deliveries " going on at this house, owned and occupied by " Legal or Illegal Immigrants " from El Salvador ?
I don' t really know, but I have my suspicions as to, that is exactly what is going on at this house .
I called the police to report my suspicions and was told there was nothing they could do unless or until they had sufficient probable cause to investigate.
So from now on I am going to start taking pictures of the goings on at this house and see if that will be enough probable cause for an investigatiion.
continued
September 23, 2010 at 8:15 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
Empathy for law breaking " Illegal Immigrants " , why should I . Next thing you know I will be expected to have empathy for the " Legal " citizens of the U.S. who are committing crimes and breaking the law.
So yes, your and others, " empathetic, feel sorry " for the " Criminal and Illegal Immigrant " minds are made up, just as my mind, to not be empathetic or feel sorry for the " Criminal, Law breaker and " Illegal Immigrant " is also made up, and neither of us are going to change the others mind or way of thinking ! So you are right, debate, discussion or arguement is " Futile " !
And the no room for discussiion attitude is your problem also bisuit, but I guess you believe that your mind is not dead set on feeling sorry for the illegal immigrant.
You are not the wisest of the wise, nor the all knowing " Sage " you think you are, no matter how much you try to convice others you are !
And you, also, are not interested in discussing the immigration problem, how to solve it or anyother problem with anyone who has a different mind set or doesn' t totally agree with your mind set or thinking of the all mighty, all knowing biscuitboy !
And the same goes for you skraps !
As a final comment to you two . When and if the U.S. and its " Legal citizens " have been driven into third world status and bankrupt, in large part because of the undue burden placed upon the U.S. and its " Legal citizens ", by " Illegal Immigrants " . And the illegal immigrants have left the U.S. and returned to their home countries because there is no longer anything left in the U.S. for them or " Illegally Immigrate " to some other country, in search of more and greener pastures, so to speak, to desimate, perhaps then you will finally wake up !
September 23, 2010 at 8:30 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
I have no idea what you have going on next door to you meth. I am curious as to how you know where they are from and so much about them? Since you don't know if they are legal or illegal, are you certain they are not U.S. citizens of Hispanic decent?
But I won't be stupid enough to try to claim that what you describe does not sound suspicious. My experience with druggies however has shown me that most of them drive old junk cars,,,,if anything at all. Why? Because they spend every dime they can scrape up on drugs.
So if these people are all driving these pimp rides as you describe....with license plates from all over,.... it would seem they might be a little higher up on the food chain. Considering your obvious feeling for them you might be a little careful taking pictures. Then again if they are what you think they are. and are as obvious as you describe, they are also stupid......and that would make them even more dangerous.
But the situation you described also was quite obvious in my neighborhood recently (except for the pimp rides). Only one major difference. Almost all of the people involved were as "white" as you and I....and I'll bet were all natural born citizens. So what does all this have to do with the bigger problem of immigration, legal or otherwise?
September 23, 2010 at 8:55 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
skraps (anonymous) says...
Exactly, biscuitboy!
And meth...
I am more than willing to discuss things from a bilateral standpoint. I also empathize with your feelings. (Empathy is not to be confused with sympathy as in ur posts, you seem to have them confused as one and the same). As an American and a Christian, I have been taught to look outside my box and feel for the feelings and situations of others. I regret that you were not afforded the ability to do so. But I empathize with the fact that your feelings on the matter are real to you, even if your points are extreme and for the most part, not valid. I hope for your sake and for the sake of your standpoint that you and others with your mindset on this issue can stop using anger and frustration to fight your battles. as it can only hurt you and your cause. Carrying anger does nothing but harm, mostly to the one who carries it.
September 23, 2010 at 10:36 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
Again, biscuit I don' t have to or should not have to explain my suspicions or what I know as fact to you or anyone.
However I did try to get to know at least one of the persons that live in the house I speak of and this person told me that they were from El Salvador and that all the persons living there are related and also from El Salvador, but when the subject of how, why and when this person and their relatives happen come to Emporia, this person," clammed up " and would not speak to me further about anything . Oh, and I also know several people from Guatamala, Hondurus, and Panama, as well as Korea, Japan, Mexico, Philipines and Viet Nam, who are and have become good and respectful friends and none of these people act like those that moved in two doors north of us. So, oh wise and all knowing " Sage " of Emporia and the world, you see I am not as stupid as you, yourself would think I am or have others think I am. I am fully capable of gathering information and taking care of myself no matter what the threat, either percieved or real !
And it does not matter which end of the " Food Chain " these "pimp mobile " driving people are at or what nationality, ethnicity or culture they happen to be. If they are engaged in any " unlawful, criminal acts " they should be arrested and punished . Whether they be " Legal or Illegal " citizens of the U.S., ( PERIOD ). The last time I knew, doing anything classified as " Illegal ", is still a " Crime " and punishable to the fullest extent of the law. Or at least it used to be, until this " empathy " movement took over the U.S. .
September 23, 2010 at 1:28 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
And skraps, your insinuation that I am not an American, just goes to show how, when you cannot turn someone to your way of so called " christian " thinking, as well as doing the most non christian of things by attacking a persons character !
You speak of " empathy " . I do know the differance between " empathy and sympathy " and I have " empathy " for those who really deserve " empathy ", however I believe that most of the " Illegal Immigrants " do not derserve the " empathy " that you and others so freely give . I have " sympathy " for those immigrants who have immigrated to the U.S. " Legally ", and are now being slapped in the face and kicked in the gut by those who have unfounded " empathy " for those who would come to the U.S. ' Illegally !
You don' t know me, you don' t know how many people, over the years I have helped and empathized with or anything else about me . But that is O.K. you may dislike me or even hate me for my views, way of thinking and beliefs. But I know what I have done to help people.
I also know, people who profess to be an American and a christian, just may not be what they profess to be.
With me, you get what you get, nothing more, nothing less and I do not profess to be the smartest, dumbest or most righteous or profess to be a christian, so to speak and a Loyal, Legal, devout, real deal, United States of America, " AMERICAN " !
I would thank you and wish you to have a good day, but that would probably not be good enough for you.
So I will just say, via con dios !
Oh, I forgot to say in an earlier post, I also speak Spanish !
September 23, 2010 at 1:28 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
Oh, and skraps, I am not carrying any anger. What I am .... is fed up with all of the " illegal immigrants " and those who " empathize " with the illegal immigrants, expecially when there are plenty of " legal " U.S., American citizens who need your " empathy " or " sympathy " and " help " much worse than any " Illegal " immigrant.
No, no anger here, just total fed up frustration .
September 23, 2010 at 1:36 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
oh4theluvof (anonymous) says...
methusla,
I had a similar situation happen across the street form my house a few years ago, although I can guarantee that the people involved were all legally born here. You need to call EPD and ask to speak to Det. Dragonas or Det. Delgado. Keep a record of makes/models/colors of cars w/license plate numbers and call those in frequently. The detectives will also ask you about some other details that can help them investigate. Tell them any detail even if you don't think it's relevant because it just might be to them. Check back with them semi-frequently. It took over a year and several phone calls to get rid of the one that was here, but it is important to give them a chance to get the guy off the streets, not just chase him out of your neighborhood and into someone else's. I do agree with biscuit, though, about the caliber of vehicle you're seeing. The situation in our neighborhood saw the more run-down cars and the nice car from Jo. Co. only appeared once a month unless the dealer had done a few days in jail. If he had, after he got out his car would be gone for a couple of days and when it returned, the other activity would start up again and the black Mercedes would reappear one month later. We also had junkies strolling the neighborhood and watched fist fights in the side yard of the drug house. Be careful, but don't be afraid to report everything.
Good luck!
September 23, 2010 at 3:22 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
skraps (anonymous) says...
Like I said before meth... I give up.
September 23, 2010 at 3:31 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
oh4
You described my situation perfectly and with the help of a couple of people in the neighborhood a couple of bust were made and things have been quite ever since.
And although I would be surprised that bigger fish would be so obvious, stranger things have happened. Bigger fish however must be worked much differently.
September 23, 2010 at 3:52 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
meth.
I probably don't feel one bit different about you than you do about me.....but if this situation is really what you think it is.....don't go trying to be a hero.
Be watchful and helpful like oh4 said but don't get in their face. If they are really what you think, they play by different rules. Not because they may or may not be illegal aliens....but because they may or may not be dangerous criminals.
You need to remember something I need to remind myself of frequently. Don't let your hot-headed temper overload you old man butt.
September 23, 2010 at 4:12 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
You know what, people, I am just going to flat give up on everything ! I have tried to do what I think is the right and proper thing, but for what, and to what end . No more opposing " Illegal Immigrants " coming to the U.S. " Illegally " , no more watching and wondering about suspicious activitities in the neighborhood, no more attending City Budget meetings and such, no more letters to companies, trying to get them interested in locating in Emporia, etc..
I am tired of it all . From now on I will look out and protect for me and mine and everyone else can do the same !
September 23, 2010 at 5:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
romano1784 (anonymous) says...
Skraps i gotta pop in on this.
Do you know what it is like to look into your child's eyes when they ask for something to eat and not be able to do anything about it? Do you know what it is like to want to work and be unable to find a job to provide for your family? Do you know what it's like to look at a sick child and not know how to get them the medical treatment they need? Would you not break a law or even risk your life to save your child? Yes, illegal is illegal all day, every day. But I would do ANYTHING necessary to provide basic needs for my kids. Would you not?
You would do anything necessary for your kids... Now consider this option. You are looking into your kids eyes, you know where you are is not working. You will be out of money soon, rent will be due, or a bill of some sort. You decide to "immigrate" to another country. You only have limited funds for yourself and your family so you can't do this legally. You sneak accross the border in some fashion. Two weeks later you have a job at Tyson, (Im using this as an example due to earlier postings), making good money. You have found a way to support your family. Good for you!
However, You got this job after you broke the law to do so. You took a job that a person of origin did not get. Now that person gets to look into their kids eyes and wonder where the money will come from. You did what it took to care for your family, even breaking national laws to do so. In the meantime you just put a native into the same situation you left your country for. So this person that was born in this country, followed its laws, went through the process, lost a potential job because you did what it took. Then again when you are eventually caught, exposed, your children removed from your custody, you get to go on 60minutes, or some talk show and whine/ moan about your rights that have been violated by discrimination. But hey, you were just doing what it took right?
September 24, 2010 at 3:05 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
romano1784 (anonymous) says...
Im sure i dont need to say what side of this im on.
"America for AMERICANS!"
September 24, 2010 at 3:07 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
If IBP (to stick with the example I used) had all these jobs to fill, and there were all these Americans waiting and wanting these jobs, why was IBP hauling Mexicans up here by the van load to go to work? Why did they have billboards on the U.S. side facing Mexico advertising jobs. I could ask the same thing about the produce pickers out in California.
I know there are a lot of Americans presently out of work and wanting jobs (more so than back in the days of IBP). And yes, I do understand what illegal means. But then why the disconnect between those two things and the fact that companies not only hire all these lightly documented (if at all documented) people, but they even recruit them.
And don't tell me all these people are so adept at faking their papers and backgrounds that poor little corporation just can't tell the difference. That excuse does not explain why a disproportionate number of the people working there have Hispanic names and speak little or no English. The overall demographic for legal citizens of Emporia is not 60 percent Hispanic non-English speaking people.
September 24, 2010 at 3:59 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
I think the poster who posted , September 24, 2010 at 3:59 a.m., knows full well the answer to his question. Greed, and more profit is why any company transports or hires " Illegal Immigrants/undocumented aliens " .
Just a comment, not an argument, so don' t get excited, Oh great wise and all knowing " One " .
September 24, 2010 at 8:05 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
Romano1784
My advice to you is to be quiet, back off and keep your opinions to yourself . I say this, because you will be " beaten down " for your attitude, way of thinking and opinion about or against
" Illegal Immigration " or to demand strict, enforcement of the " Immigration Laws " . I have finally come to realize that " America is no longer for Americans or being controlled by Legal Americans, but is being conrolled by and dictated to by Foreign Interests and the " empathetic " and " greedy " fools who are allowing it to happen and take place and neither you, I nor anyone who opposes it, is, can or will be able to do anything to stop it or even slow it down .
I am not arguing with you or debating with you or beating you down, I am just giving you a little friendly advice and I hope I can consider you a friend .
September 24, 2010 at 8:24 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
skraps (anonymous) says...
romano1784
I was not by any means condoning illegal immigration by my post. But I could see how you might have gotten that meaning out of it. I was merely saying that a tiny bit of empathy goes a long way on either side to fix the problem.
The point is, I can sit here and scream, "I hate 'em, I hate 'em, I hate 'em!" But that's not gonna get me anywhere. But if I say, "Look buddy, I understand your situation, but that still doesn't make it right." Maybe, JUST MAYBE, it would start a discussion worth completing. Illegal immigration is wrong no matter what the reason. I had this conversation with the wife of a close family member who was here illegally. Guess where she is now? In Mexico, trying to use LEGAL means of re-entry. Not saying she went back just because of the conversation, but she is there nonetheless. Even though that means that she faces 5 years of no re-entry and being away from her husband, due to the fact that she came here illegally in the first place. People do want to do the right thing. Sometimes it just takes a little bit of tact to get them to understand the benefits.
September 24, 2010 at 8:24 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
skraps (anonymous) says...
And America is for Americans!! The problems is, America is more for wealthy Americans than it is for the average citizen. And since the Americans with the most money own most of the big businesses, they will continue to hire immigrants, both legal and illegal because they care more about their bottom dollar than the welfare of the American people.
September 24, 2010 at 8:28 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
Hooray for you skraps, you persuaded one out of millions of illegal immigrants to " do the right and lawful " thing, " Maybe " ! What about the rest of the millions of illegal immigrants who will not do the right and lawful thing ?
Are you going to talk to them and get them to also go back to their country, where ever it may be and go thru the proper and lawful procedure to immigrate to the U.S. or any other country " Legally " ?
I am convinced that the people who enter the U.S. or any country " Illegally " know full well before hand that what they are doing and continue to do, over and over and over in some cases is against the immigration laws of the U.S. and other countries, but continue to do it anyway, even after being caught, informed that what they did was " Illegal " and yet they continue to do it anyway .
Trying to control illegal immigration has been done your way a talking to, a pat on the rump a slap on the wrist and a " don' t do it or don' t do it again, has not, is not and will not satisfactorily work. Only the increased, strict enforcenment of Immigration law, stiffer penalties and punishment of all involved in the act, including those who transport and hire Illegal Immigrants, as well as a more secure border, will stop, slowdown or alleviate/cure the problem.
But of course, I realize that my arguments are falling on " deaf, empathetic " ears.
September 24, 2010 at 9:11 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
It is because of the greed that the companies keep recruiting and hiring illegals. They hire them because they can work them longer and harder for less money than they would have to pay an American citizen. Looking at it in that light, it seems to me the illegals are not taking good paying jobs away from Americans nearly as much as the American companies are giving lessor paying hard jobs to the illegals to maximize their own profit.
That still doesn't make illegal legal but it does shift some of the blame to where it also belongs. It also helps explain why it is so hard to get any meaningful reform accomplished
September 24, 2010 at 9:13 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
meth
I am not at all upset or excited. I am stating my thoughts and beliefs just as you are. And I have no intention of stopping stating my thoughts and beliefs just because another poster stomps their feet and gets mad about it, anymore than I would expect another poster to stop stating their beliefs because I disagreed with them. That's the way it is.
September 24, 2010 at 9:23 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
That word just popped up again, " reform " ! This is a word that is bandied about by many people, debating/arguing and getting angry over " Illegal Immigration/Immigrants " .
I will ask again and again and again and again, if need be ... What sort of reforms do you believe are needed ?
Relaxed immigration laws and penalties ?
That won' t work, because the laws and penalties and punishment are not enforced now !
Amnesty for the illegal immigrants already in the U.S. ?
This won' t work, because there are not enought jobs for everone now anyway " ?
Automatic U.S. citizenship for illegal immigrants ?
This will only cause more of a problem, still not enough jobs for everyone !
Raise taxes on the Legal taxpaying citizen of the U.S., in order to keep funding public assistance/entitlements, that are being defrauded by the Illegal Immigrants anyway ?
Do that and there will be a revolt or " anarchy " !
As I see it, the only way to solve the illegal immigration/immigrant problem thru a " reform " effort is to,
" Reform or Transform " the U.S. government to a " form " of government that is not afraid to increase, to a higher level, the enforcement of the immigration laws that are already in place as well as increased enforcement of or increasing the penalties and punishment of those who transport or hire " Illegal Immigrants/undocumented aliens . As well increasingly secured border, by force if necessary . This is the only immigration, illegal immigrant, undocumented alien reform, I believe that is needed .
September 24, 2010 at 9:40 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
A couple of reforms that come to mind would be some reform of the quotas set on legal migrants and workers that come in to take those jobs that employers claim they cannot fill with Americans. California produce workers come to mind. If the truck farmers and fruit growers really can't find enough willing Americans to work those jobs, and the crops are setting in the fields, then have flexible enough rules and quotas to allow for that labor shortfall. This could also apply to the meat packing business.
This would also require then some other reforms. Reforms that would require employers to hire legally or face serious criminal charges. Then enforce those reforms. Once the businesses were forced to pay a competitive wage with working conditions that would allow Americans to seek out the jobs and they still sat unfilled, then bring in legal immigrants to fill them.
Some reform of the unemployment laws might also be helpful to "encourage" Americans drawing unemployment to seek out these jobs rather than just setting home waiting to get called back to a job that has gone to China.
There are many such reforms that could be looked at if we were willing to look past just slamming the gate closed and to hell with the cost. Reforms can be made short of blanket amnesty and citizenship for everybody. But some of those reforms are ones we have to make on ourselves.
September 24, 2010 at 10:10 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
Good, now we are starting to have some constructive dialogue about possible solutions to the nations problems. Instead of beating one another up with arguements and anger.
But this will all have to start at the Federal Government level, with a Federal Government/Administration that is willing to listen to all of the people and not just the " Greedy, Money people " .
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39339231/...
Here is a news report I came across, it may not be exactly on this particular topic, but it does deal with the " Greedy, Money people " I mentioned above.
September 24, 2010 at 10:19 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
Oh, and I believe that the border doors need to be closed, tighter than they now are, in order for any sort of solution to the problem to be implimented or start to take place. I am at least stem the flow of illegal immigrants to allow proper enforcement of the existing laws to take place.
September 24, 2010 at 10:23 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
And here is another report that deals with greed, in a mainly poor Hispanic community in the U.S. . Greed and money is one of the biggest problems that exists in this country and is what causes most, if not all of the other woes and problems of the American people .
http://redtape.msnbc.com/2010/09/in-b...
Sorry if this is not exactly on topic but I felt it was somewhat connected !
September 24, 2010 at 10:29 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
But every administration is joined at the hip with the greedy money people (Democrats and Republicans alike) which is why it is so hard to get meaningful reform. People are making money off keeping things as they are then blaming all the problem on the illegals.
But I agree we need to stem the tide at the border until we can figure out how to proceed from here. I am less convinced that building a wall and placing a border guard every ten yards from the Pacific Ocean to the Gulf of Mexico wouldn't cost us more than it would save us.
September 24, 2010 at 10:51 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
REWBA (anonymous) says...
"Do you know what it is like to look into your child's eyes when they ask for something to eat and not be able to do anything about it?"
NO! I don't! Wanna know why? Cause I kept my richard in my pants until I was able to support children.
"Do you know what it is like to want to work and be unable to find a job to provide for your family?"
NO! I don't! Wanna know why? Cause I kept my nose to the grindstone and built a career before even thinking about making babies.
"Do you know what it's like to look at a sick child and not know how to get them the medical treatment they need?"
NO! I don't! Wanna know why? Cause the career path I chose provided health insurance and paid good enough money to set some aside in savings for a rainy day.
If you make good choices you don't have to face the consequences that bad choices bring.
American needs immigrants now. There are way too many Americans who failed to prepare for their retirement so they depend on a much smaller workforce to pay for their social security and medicare. We could allow the people who are working in the US illegally to pay a fine and become productive taxpayers but the jackarses who suck up the social security dollars just say no. So there you have it. There will be no social security for my generation. I've prepared...have you?
September 24, 2010 at 10:57 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
Whoa there REWBA.
Those of us my age who worked hard and paid into Social Security thought we were preparing for our retirement. It's no more our fault if the system was mismanaged or ill-conceived from the start, than it will be the fault of future generations when the next magical bubble burst and the stock market tanks sending all their retirement plans along with it. All your great plans aren't worth much when the fickle finger of fate points at you my friend.
September 24, 2010 at 12:02 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
REWBA (anonymous) says...
I hear ya biscuitboy! I wasted a lifetime in the Army and another lifetime as a federal employee. I involuntarily deposited two careers worth of money into social security and invested about 5% of my income into government secured stocks only to discover that the world will end December 2012.
Somehow I knew all this time that I was wasting my time, effort and money. I should have impregnated every girl in my school and pretended that I was unable to work due to my disability or something irresponsible like that. My life would have been much easier had I not planed for the future. Damn those illegals!
September 24, 2010 at 1:35 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
REWBA
I get your drift...:-)
September 24, 2010 at 2:09 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
"Those of us my age who worked hard and paid into Social Security thought we were preparing for our retirement."
That is exactly why there are so many problems now. Social Security was never meant to be the sole retirement income. It is only a supplement but many people think that "Those of us my age who worked hard and paid into Social Security thought we were preparing for our retirement." Sorry to tell you this but you are and were wrong. I'm about 30 years out from retiring(if retirement even exists then) and I have a plan because I realize that one must plan ahead and not just assume the government is going to take care of me if I don't plan ahead to take care of myself. I'm putting into ss which is a pretty big gamble and I wouldn't put money there but I have no choice(darn those anti-choice folks that force me to put my money where I don't want it to go). I also have 2 different retirement plans I put into. I also don't buy a lot of the crap that other people(morons I call them) buy like fancy portable phones that show them pictures of genitalia anytime they want (I don't need crap like that). I don't buy new cars because I want to be cool like my neighbors(the Jones'). I don't have any addictions that "influence" me to do stupid moronic crap that hinders my progress toward my goals. I am currently trying to eliminate all debt including my mortgage, I figure if I start now I should be able to have my home paid off along with all my other debt and there will be very little to pay for(hopefully my kids are out of the house by then). No unnecessary things like "vacations". Getting to work without using gasoline. That is what planning for retirement looks like. I'm sure I'm forgetting other methods that I use in my preparation but I think I have illustrated my point that having the government(who are the last people on the planet I want "taking care" of my money, they suck when it comes to financial responsibility) take your money and then give you back someone elses money is not adequate retirement preparation. I don't even think the government ever claimed that ss was supposed to be the only thing one needed for retirement. Oh yeah blah blah blah something about immigration(just to keep it on topic)
September 24, 2010 at 2:17 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
Actually. the real reason Social Security was conceived was to entice people to leave the work force to open up employment opportunities for younger people just entering the work force.
Prior to that very few people had the forethought or the available income to "plan for retirement". In fact, most people didn't retire at all. they worked until they died or they became totally unable to work. Then they became wards of charity. But with nobody able to leave the work force there were few new jobs available for young people to have. This problem became particularly acute following the Great Depression.
So Social Security was touted as not only a way to keep people off the welfare rolls when they were no longer able to work......but also to free up jobs by allowing them to leave the work force. Of course back then few people lived much past 65 or 70-years old anyway. This whole idea of planning for retirement and then being well fixed enough to live high off the hog didn't develop until years later when people had recovered enough from losing every thing they had on Black Friday. That was when the whole idea of planning for retirement and controlling your own destiny started to develop in earnest as people were enticed back into the market with things like 401-K programs. And that really didn't get started in earnest until the seventies and into the eighties.
You might read a little more history if you really want to understand what things were intended to do seriously.
September 24, 2010 at 3:02 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
Since you are about thirty years out from retirement that tells me you are in your mid-thirties right now. Being that age you can be forgiven for being so certain what Social Security was never intended to be. That's because this idea of planning for retirement really got a serious start with company retirement plans and mutual fund accounts that really got started about the time you were born. But just because it's all you have ever known, doesn't mean that is all it has ever been.
September 24, 2010 at 3:09 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
I would love to say something about this topic that suddenly turned to Social Security and retirement. But, I had better now, as my thoughts on this subject would most likely result in another argument, verbal fight and name calling. So I will bight my lip and tongue and cross al my fingers and say or type nothing !
I will just read what the rest of you have to say and have a cold beer and relax and watch somebody else get beat up for a while !
September 24, 2010 at 4:10 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
You know what life is don't you seriouslyfolks.....It's that thing that comes along and screws up all your plans....:-)
September 24, 2010 at 5:03 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
REWBA (anonymous) says...
I thought the story was about illegal immigration facts (selectively cherry picked by someone who advocates reform and amnesty).
Each of the "facts" listed demonstrate that bad decisions result in horrible consequences. The author asks us to reward the bad decision makers with amnesty.
We already reward anyone and everyone who desires to sit on their couch and do nothing but smoke dope all day with a program especially designed for their needs.
If I were to be deported, I would take my children with me. The reason the Illegal's leave their children here when they are deported is because we will give each and every one of their "anchors" about 3K each month in cash, health insurance, food assistance and public education. The kids stay with a relative who collects the money on the kids behalf and "remit" a good chunk of that taxpayer money back to Mexico. The illegals who are deported use those "remittances" to pay a "coyote" to help them back into the states so they can work and be with their anchors.
I say if we are to make any reform in immigration law it would be to eliminate the cash assistance to "anchors".
September 24, 2010 at 5:12 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
There are a number of reforms that need to be made concerning "anchors" and nothing should be off the table in that regard. I however have made it clear that I personally think we can solve much of this anchor problem with out the drastic step of repealing a constitutional amendment. At least we should look at some alternatives before we just start there.
September 24, 2010 at 5:59 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
REWBA (anonymous) says...
How about if you are here illegal and you refuse to take your children with you when you are deported, we spade or neuter them, give them their shots then place them with an adoptive home (far away from any relatives of those who abandoned them) where they are renamed and the original owners loose all rights to ever seeing them again.
September 24, 2010 at 6:16 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
I had to look this up to be certain I was correct....The legislation setting up 401-K programs was approved in 1978. The law went into effect in 1980....and the program really started taking off in the mid 1980's. 401-K is the backbone of the plan and build for your retirement that started at that time. It was still not widely available however being an employer option to offer it (kinda like health care).
The first job I had that offered a 401-K program was not until 1996.
September 24, 2010 at 6:22 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
Here is a bit of information I found out about Social Security and what it is .
Social Security is administered by the Social Security Administration (SSA). The three main programs that they administer are:
•Social Security Retirement Benefits
•Social Security Survivors Benefits
•Social Security Disability Benefits
Also the following is more in line with this forum topic, but still has to do with Social Security,
Social Security Benefits for Non-US Citizens, Immigrants, Nonimmigrants
In order to become part of the Social Security system, you must have lawful alien status, permission by the U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS) to work in the U.S., and a Social Security Number
September 24, 2010 at 7:02 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
oh4theluvof (anonymous) says...
"....when you are deported, we spade or neuter them,....."
WOW!!!! Harsh!! Harsher than you think.
spade [speyd] verb,spad·ed, spad·ing.
–noun
1. a tool for digging, having an iron blade adapted for pressing into the ground with the foot and a long handle commonly with a grip or crosspiece at the top, and with the blade usually narrower and flatter than that of a shovel.
2. some implement, piece, or part resembling this.
3. a sharp projection on the bottom of a gun trail, designed to dig into the earth to restrict backward movement of the carriage during recoil.
–verb (used with object)
4.
to dig, cut, or remove with a spade (sometimes fol. by up): Let's spade up the garden and plant some flowers.
spay [spey]
–verb (used with object)Veterinary Medicine.
to remove the ovaries of (an animal).
September 24, 2010 at 7:17 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
REWBA (anonymous) says...
Back Social Security was started, a man could start a job and stay with that same company for a lifetime drawing a decent pension with social security supplementing that income. Today a man might go through 10 employers in 20 years and never earn a pension. As a result Social Security has become the sole source of income for the majority of recipients.
Throughout the same time period, American family size has decreased so there are fewer Americans starting a career and paying into Social Security today than the ones who are now starting to draw their benefits. This isn't news though. It was identified as an upcoming problem back in the early eighties. Republicans and Democrats both agreed that it was a problem and something needed to be done but they didn't do anything. We need to create a pathway to citizenship for immigrants who are here already so they can start paying into social security so that it will be here when I am old enough to drink.
September 24, 2010 at 7:28 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
REWBA (anonymous) says...
I don't have pets so I just spade the ones that get into my garden :-)
September 24, 2010 at 7:29 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
REWBA (anonymous) says...
If they didn't run after I hit them with a shovel, I would neuter them too. :-)
September 24, 2010 at 7:31 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mustangsue (anonymous) says...
Rewba
You are a PIP!! That was such a quick comeback...you should do stand-up.
September 24, 2010 at 8:12 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
My mother worked out of the home all of her life from about age thirty until she was over seventy. During that time she worked for a total of three people...two of them different owners of the same company.
She never earned a pension at all. But it is not uncommon nowadays for a person to work for three people in three years and pensions are virtually unheard of.
September 24, 2010 at 9:01 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
REWBA (anonymous) says...
For the record, I have never actually spaded anyone's pet but I did spade a snake just yesterday. It was sitting in my pumpkin patch without a passport or visa. I can't stand illegal immigrant snakes no matter how many times I'm told they are beneficial to my garden.
September 24, 2010 at 10:03 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
For the record, my mother's last employer did start a profit sharing plan during the time of my mother's employment there. She used that money to buy individual IRA's at her bank. But she was already drawing SS by the time she went to work there.
September 25, 2010 at 3:20 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
Your time line is dead on REWBA. The problem of the declining number of workers supporting the increasing number of SS recipients was in full bloom by the early eighties. That recognition was in fact one of the driving forces behind the growth of 401-K and other private retirement plans which not coincidentally all started at the same time. Since that time a growing emphasis has been placed on people preparing their own retirement nest eggs.
Prior to that however, about the only working people that ever had any retirement plans other than
SS were people lucky enough to work at the few jobs that did provide pension plans. Ironically, those jobs were primarily either government jobs, union jobs, or the military. Two of those three are also ironically the same ones the people wanting to scuttle SS often find the most offensive. Figure that one.
September 25, 2010 at 8:27 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
I would rather be ignorant of the original intent of social security(which I still don't believe) than naive enough to think that that is all I'll need to even maintain my life in the least possible way when I can't work anymore. I'll continue with my ignorant plan and see how I'm living when I'm your age compared to how you are now. That should be a better indicator of who is more on the ball on this one.
Here is something I found that indicates that people were retired at the time and that ss was to help them not fall below a certain level of poverty. That doesn't really sound like it was supposed to be the sole retirement fund(unless you wanted to barely squeak by(and complain constantly about how you're not getting taken care of better).
"Social Security is a mandated supplemental retirement system in the US that was established in 1935 as part of Roosevelt's New Deal. It was motivated largely by the events of the Great Depression, which saw many Americans out of work and the nation's retired elderly often left in the direst of poverty. The intent of the Social Security program is to ensure a threshold subsistence level below which any worker who had paid into the program cannot fall."
Immigration and stuff.
September 25, 2010 at 9:52 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
Do any of you think, that the " looting " of Social Security Funds by Government Administrations and used for their own agendas' and the fact that the baby boomer generation is getting ready to hit Social Security for a large chunk of " change ", had or has anything to do with the past and current brouhaha over Social Security ?
Do you think that, " IF " the Social Security Trust Fund had not been " Looted " or is still being " Looted " that this " brouhaha " over Social Security would even be going on ?
And does anyone really believe that if Social Security were to be " Privatized " that this action would actually change anything ?
There are many problems that need to be " fixed "or at leased " addressed ", but no one seems to be willing to work together to do either !
September 25, 2010 at 10:06 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
Also, how many of you believe that all of those working " Legally " in the U.S. and pay into are mandated to pay into Social Security, have State and Federal income tax taken from their pay, pay their everyday bills, are even able to put anything, let alone put enough into any form of individual retirement account or savings to maintain any sort of life style that they presently have ?
And remember the cost of everyday living essentials, keeps increasing !
As well as the demand from our governments for more money thru taxation, as well as the increased demand put on public assistance/entitlements by those " Legal " citizens who may be unemployed, as well as the " Defrauding " of the public assistance/entitlement programs by the " Illegal Immigrants " who believe they are entitled to the same public assistance/entitlement programs that were meant for the " Legal " U.S. citizens .
And what about public education, why does it cost so much for public education in the U.S. ? Any thought anyone ?
And remember, no one in Goverment, Federal, State, County or City seems willing to make the hard decisions to fix any of the problems, that face this nation, its States, Countys or Citys' !
September 25, 2010 at 10:28 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Steve_Corbin (anonymous) says...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1T75j...
September 25, 2010 at 10:31 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
seriouslyfolks
You didn't credit who wrote that but it sounds pretty much like what I said except for the insertion of the word supplemental. I would like to know who wrote that and where it was published. It was obviously somebody's interpretation of the act and its causes and puposes. And yes, the nations "retired" elderly prior to the passage of SS were in the direst of conditions.....often in county homes for paupers. That doesn't sound much like retirement to me.
Other than that, I hope your plans work out just as well as you think they will, and life doesn't come along and mess them up. But don't stand there and accuse an entire couple of generations of being fools for not having the foresight you have because of the benefit of hindsight.
As to your not believing it....I would have expected nothing less. You have proved over and over that you are not about to let what you believe be confused by any amount of data to the contrary. I wasn't trying to change your belief anyway....I know that is a futile cause. I am only trying to steer others towards data that is based more on fact that fantasy......:-)
September 25, 2010 at 10:38 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
Steve.....that was hilarious.....ROFLMAO
September 25, 2010 at 10:44 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
seriously
Please document my "constant complaining" about how I am not getting taken care of better. I have written extensively about the struggle I am having adjusting to living on such a small income, but that is a world different than complaining that I should have more. So I would like documentation of where I said I should be getting more than I am.
Instead I believe I am getting just exactly what I was told I would get and what I expected to get. Try and keep it straight "friend".
September 25, 2010 at 10:56 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
Through the 50's, the 60's and most of the 70's, few if any body working outside of the government, the military, or union jobs had any company supported retirement plans. Some of course saved more than others but few of those that did considered it as planning for retirement. Most people were naive enough back then to think America's boom days would go on forever. What brought that pipe dream to an end was the OPEC induced oil shortage of the late seventies.
How am I so certain I know this....because I lived it. How am I so certain you don't know what people thought then....because you hadn't even been born yet.
September 25, 2010 at 11:30 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-socia...
I don't need documentation that old people complain about ss. Just go ask one. All they do is complain about it and medicare. To bring this back around to immigration, it's like how immigrants come here because their country of origin is lesser than the U.S. It makes perfect sense for them to come here because the U.S. is better and has more to offer. Where it gets confusing is the loyalty they have for their country of origin(which is inferior) over their loyalty to the land of opportunity(the superior U.S.). From what I gather about these other countries is that they are not as good as this one because people are leaving them and coming here. Common sense right? I see ss and medicare the same way. I see and hear old people constantly complaining and living in fear everyday because their ss isn't enough and medicare doesn't pay enough and the kids never call or come by(probably because they don't want to here the constant complaining). I take what I hear about ss and medicare and my opinion of them is naturally not very good. Perhaps you are correct and all the smoke I see is just smoke and there is not any fire and I am wasting my time trying to be responsible and plan for the future. Perhaps I should just throw caution to the wind and go buy that Porsche I've been eying since I was 15. No, I'll continue to do all I can to take care of my family and myself. Call me stupid if you want.
September 25, 2010 at 11:51 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
seriouslyfolks....Once again with the quantum leaps.
You throw caution to the wind and go buy that Porsche, or you continue to scrimp and save and do with out vacations and live with out using gasoline to save for your retirement. Which ever you choose is fine with me. Why? Because I really don't give a damn which one you do. I have lived long enough and seen enough things to know that what ever you do may all be for nought anyway. Whether you plan or don't plan, save or don't save, it can all change in an instant with that one knock on the door or the ring of the telephone. I know it is all a crap game but if it makes you feel better to think you are in control go right ahead and think that.
I'll be dead before long anyway then I won't have to worry about a bunch of young know-it-alls that have no qualms with reneging on commitments or throwing their elderly under the bus when it becomes convenient for them to do so. Just remember your children are learning how to treat their elderly by watching how you do it today.
I used to think you just didn't like me. I'm fine with that, a lot of people don't. But now it looks like you just don't like old folks......well....may you live long enough to become one....and that's a curse as much as a blessing.
September 25, 2010 at 12:15 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
First, I realize that stuff happens and it could all be gone in the blink of an eye but if that happens I want to make sure that it isn't because of something I did. If something is out of my control then it isn't in my control and I can't control it so it isn't on me but if my life turns to fecal matter it won't be because I didn't try to prevent it. I honestly believe that if people would do this thing I call "trying" there would be a lot less problems. It make sense to me but I'm a know nothing snot nose. However when I'm your age I will look back on this moment and I will either say "Huh, I guess I was right." or I will say "Dang kids, they never come over to hear me complain about ss and medicare and I just can't imagine why."
"no qualms with reneging on commitments or throwing their elderly under the bus when it becomes convenient for them to do so"
I have never once in my life said that I am for throwing the elderly under the bus or even getting rid of ss in a way that would jeopardize old folks. The only thing I have ever said about ss reform is that I wouldn't mind paying into it the rest of my life and recieving back none of it if my kids never had to pay into it. That is all I've said about it and I believe it was in real life I said it and not here. I couldn't "renege" on anything concerning ss anyway because I never promised anybody ss. That promise was imposed on me by force. I'm not saying I want to stop having my money taken from me and given to you with little or no chance of getting back but I simply did no make a promise to do so therefore I couldn't renege if I wanted to(which I don't, just to be clear on that). My problem with ss is that some people say there is a problem with it but if they start to look at it to see if they can fix it other people say there isn't a problem and tell the first dudes to stop looking. So if there is a problem it will not be found and addressed until it is too late(I believe this will be the case). If however it is the picture perfect image of paradise on Earth for the elderly as some suggest I will have prepared for the worst and will be better off for it when the magical time for ss to kick in happens. OH GLORIOUS DAYS!! lol
September 25, 2010 at 12:47 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
Like methusla said to me yesterday....Now we are getting somewhere.
I certainly am not one of those that believes SS is the image of paradise on earth. In fact, I believe it has a fatal flaw. That being that nobody ever seemed to realize in the early days that population growth and economic growth would not just keep going up for ever. In hindsight we should have realized that, but you know what they say about hindsight.
The problem is what to do about it now. If you draw a line in the sand and say anybody younger than this age is out....go take care of yourself.....that still leaves a lot of people over that line that the country has made a commitment to (whether you did or not). And that commitment is going to be a lot harder to keep once that flow of new money coming in stops. There is when the commitment made by the country will really be tested.
And in these days of no new taxes, and an almost blanket rejection of most government spending (except for the military and subsidies for the well to do), I am less than sure how that will work out. But hopefully by then I will be fertilizer in your garden and won't have to worry about it any more.
September 25, 2010 at 1:14 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
I honestly don't see the government doing anything about ss if there is a problem just like I don't see them doing anything about the illegal immigration problem. It is just easier for them to try to fix a minor problem like health care and end up making it less affordable for a working family like mine(which is exactly what happened). Becuase of hcr my cost increased more in one jump than it has in a decade. I've been warned by people who should know that my healthcare costs are going to be going up even more next year. I guess this is one of those things that could turn my plans to poo that I have no control over. Thanks to hcr.
September 25, 2010 at 1:37 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
REWBA (anonymous) says...
I had a coworker who listened to Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck. He was always unhappy. He complained about every problem in America that Rush and Glenn identified. One of those problems was the welfare state and how some people would fake an injury and sit on their couch drawing massive cash benefits indefinitely. My coworker really hated those lazy bums but he hated the government programs that allowed lazy bums to be lazy even more. One day my coworker hurt himself doing some home improvements and discovered that he had used up all his sick leave and vacation time and our employer refused to pay him to sit at home and heal. Workers Compensation refused to pay him cause he wasn't at work when he hurt himself and SRS said he made too much money and SSI said his injuries weren't permanent and he didn't have AFLAC either so for three weeks my coworker was out of work and wasn't getting paid. (good thing his wife had a job too) Of course my coworker couldn't understand why "dopers", "minorities" and "illegals" could receive benefits while he was denied so he chalked it all up to Americas prejudice towards white males. I said he was stupid and he should have waited to go to the doctor, come to work on Monday and claim he hurt himself at work. He called me a liberal and said that I am what is wrong with America. I told him that I purchased AFLAC so If I get hurt and miss work it doesn't hurt to miss work. :-)
The moral of the story is clear, when working with power tools don't drink beer.
September 25, 2010 at 1:44 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
"The moral of the story is clear, when working with power tools don't drink beer."
Here is the liberal solution to that problem. It comes from the same people who brought us the smoking ban, the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation. When are these healthier than though hypocrites goin' to stop tellin' us how to live. LOL
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39342283/...
September 25, 2010 at 1:57 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
Oh yeah, immigration is that one thing.
September 25, 2010 at 1:58 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
I don't understand how hcr is causing insurance premiums to jump so much right now when most of the hcr reforms don't even go into effect for another year or more. It couldn't be because those wonderful caring folks in the insurance business are maximizing profits and blaming it on Obama could it? Nah......
September 25, 2010 at 3:29 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
REWBA (anonymous) says...
seriouslyfolks, I think you are right about greedy foundations. If the foundation that your link's story is about actually cared about "national health", that would be "liberal". But, that foundation is concerned with passing laws that improve their own bottom line and that my friend isn't liberal (selflessly helping others less fortunate), that's conservative (selfishly helping yourself and to He** with everyone else).
September 25, 2010 at 3:42 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
Biscuit
The insurance companies are preparing to deal with how hcr is going to affect them and has already. They are not going to just eat the cost, they are going to pass the costs along to me. Any idiot could see this coming. When the "reforms" kick in it is only going to get more expensive for the average working joe like me. Any idiot can see that coming. hcr was sold to the people as something that would make things more affordable for the working class like me. It has not done that and will not do that in the future. It has and will do the opposite. How do I know this? Because I'm living it. hcr was a failed attempt at a government take over of health insurance. It was meant to punish the evil capitalists but what it did(like most "moves" like this) was punish the independent working class capitalists like me, my wife, and my kids. This is heavily tied into immigration because the the title of the story up there is "Immigration Facts" and that is what we are supposed to be talking about boy howdy it is raining outside.
Rewba
Your definitions aren't very current. I've seen liberals for years complain about how conservatives just want to tell people how to live but in recent years they have been doing the exact same thing they hated conservatives doing. They are telling us not to eat this, not to smoke there, you can't own a gun, etc. They do it in the name of health or security or whatever but it's the same thing. I call it hypocrisy(they hate that). Libertarians are the real liberals.
If you do this "selflessly helping others less fortunate" than I commend you, if you call it being liberal, conservative, or whatever. I don't really count paying into things like ss and paying taxes "selflessly helping others less fortunate" though because we are forced to do that. Being selfless should be something that comes from self and isn't forced.
Yada yada yada immigration.
September 25, 2010 at 4:02 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
REWBA (anonymous) says...
seriouslyfolks, I know it's not voluntary but I don't get mad about it anymore. I used to imagine that it was going to some old rich lady like Nancy Regan and it really affected my attitude in a negative way. Nowadays I try to imagine that my contribution is going to someone I like so I can feel good about it.
I try not to think about all the immigrants who apply for SSI.
September 25, 2010 at 5:18 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
It all depends on whose ox is getting gored.
A liberal tells people they shouldn't blow smoke in other peoples faces even though the other person placed their face in your smoke.
A conservative tells gay people they can't get married even though it is none of their personal business because it violates some religious view that they have that homosexuality is sinful.
Both do so with great noble sounding claims of protecting the greater public good. But in reality both do it because they like to push their own idea of dislikes and prejudice off onto other people.
Then they both claim they are the ideology of protecting personal freedom to live you life as your want....and they both accuse the other of trying to take that freedom away.
Just like we want to take the freedom of immigrants to live where they want away when they come over here, because their coming here violates our freedom to not wanting them to do so.
September 25, 2010 at 5:24 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
I almost completely agree with what you just said. I just think it's funny that the liberal agenda to push their idea of morality is finally coming to light and being seen for what it is after years of them claiming that they were here to protect people from having an agenda forced on them. All along they had their own agenda. lol That is why that Libertarian candidate for governor doesn't like Democrats, because they say they are liberals but they really aren't because they have their own morals to push on everyone. They want to do it and claim that they are not doing it. lol In my circle we call this "seeking to establish their own righteousness". There is nothing new under the sun.
Immigration good, legal immigration great.
September 25, 2010 at 7:15 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
Hello again people, I left the forum for a while, as I had some things I needed to take care of, mainly fix/repair the front door .
Man or man, I would very much like to respond to at least part of bicuits' post, September 25, 2010 at 5:24 p.m . But I will not, as my better judgement, says that what I would like to say, would just cause another fight or war of words and that would not be productive dialogue !
So the one thing I will say is , biscuit, tour explaination of a Liberal and a Liberal ! I always thought of myself as an " Independent American " , who thinks for himself and is not prone to be swayed, too much, by any political party ideology, politician, candidate or anyones agenda or propaganda !
September 25, 2010 at 9:16 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
Guess what guys !
September 25, 2010 at 9:33 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
September 25, 2010 at 9:34 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
Sorry, about that, I meant to say a " Conservative " and a " Liberal " and the other two posts were just an experiment, I thought maybe I found a way to place a smile face on the forum !
September 25, 2010 at 9:59 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
September 25, 2010 at 10:04 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
[IMG]http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv100/kristibraziel/faces.jpg[/IMG]
September 25, 2010 at 10:05 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
Well meth, if you won't ever express an opinion because you fear somebody might disagree with you, it appears to me you have a few options at your disposal.....
(1)....Start posting nothing but mean-nothing shallow post that are so bland nobody could ever disagree with them.
(2).....Just quit posting all together and find your self a new past time.
(3).....Just keep on doing what you are doing now and have a little temper tantrum and threaten to quit posting whenever any body disagrees with you..
(4).....Grow some tougher hide and post what you think. When it's challenged come back and defend it to the best of your ability without all the feeling sorry for yourself.
I personally recommend (4). If everybody chose the other three this forum would be so boring I would likely lapse into a comma. But if you choose to continue to post on hot button topics like immigration you better expect some flack because you are going to get it whether you want it or not. Everybody else does....what makes you different.
Hell..... I expect flak every time I push the post comment button. I wouldn't want it any other way. If all you want is constant agreement and approval of everything you do you better get yourself a dog.
September 26, 2010 at 4:30 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
I always think of myself as an independent also...an independent that leans both ways at times, depending on the issue. As far as personal freedoms are concerned I am where conservatives always claim they are. I oppose both the ban on smoking and the ban on gay marriage. I even oppose the ban on adults smoking pot but for some reason that seems to make me a liberal in conservative eyes. Go figure
September 26, 2010 at 4:38 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Steve_Corbin (anonymous) says...
bright shiny ball !
http://factreal.wordpress.com/2010/05...
September 26, 2010 at 6:34 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
Very interesting article Steve. It makes the protestations of the Mexican government about our attempts to "stem the tide" seem especially hypocritical. But of course it has been no secret for years that the border has served as a pressure relief valve for corrupt and inept Mexican governments. Without the border to siphon off the pressure there would be much more demand for change and progress to take place in that extremely corrupt system.
That might make calls for the immediate expulsion of all illegals, and the slamming of the gate, look like the best way for us to proceed. And it probably would very quickly bring change, But like a boiler explosion caused by a failed pressure relief valve, It would be very hard to predict what course that change might take, or where the damage might end. That's why I believe a more reasoned and cautious approach to all this is the better course.
And please note people (not you Steve), I never one time said I thought we should just throw the gate open and give everybody amnesty. But the immediate expulsion of 12 million or more people would not only cost a lot of money just to physically carry out, it would cause immediate disruptions in areas of our economy that might be far reaching.
What might be even further reaching is the catastrophic affect it might have on stability in much of Latin America. And that could have other serious repercussions for us.
September 26, 2010 at 7:05 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
Steve
Since returning to the forum I have noticed a number of posters use the phrase "bright shiny ball". What does that mean?
September 26, 2010 at 7:13 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
"As far as personal freedoms are concerned I am where conservatives always claim they are. I oppose both the ban on smoking and the ban on gay marriage. I even oppose the ban on adults smoking pot but for some reason that seems to make me a liberal in conservative eyes. Go figure"
I also opposed the ban on smoking in bars. "
You can't smoke where I get drunk!" That still cracks me up.
There is no ban on gay marriage. No one will get arrested or fined if they get married if the people are both of age. Government recognition of a marriage does not a marriage make. I personally think that the government should get out of the marriage business all together.
I actually would prefer that weed was the legal way that someone can get messed up with instead of alcohol. I believe it is less dangerous and would cause less problems than alcohol. However since alcohol is legal I say that is the way you should get messed up if you want. "Hey doper, just get drunk. It's already legal." I say. Common sense.
Why would Mexico have to have immigration laws? Who would want to go there? Don't they see thousands of people fleeing that place everyday? Who would want to go some place that 1000s of people are running away from? Makes no sense.
September 26, 2010 at 8:50 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
Now see methusla, seriously and I only rarely agree on things. Most of the time we pick and bait and argue about almost every thing. We sometimes get pretty hot about it. But we keep putting our side out there even though we both know the other is going to smack it down. Why? Because if we just quit giving our side the only side being heard is theirs....and neither of us want that to happen
September 26, 2010 at 9:32 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
I watched a really interesting program last night. It was about an American woman and her Mexican husband. For 16-years they lived an idyllic life on a ranch his father had left him in Mexico. The American woman described it as her little piece of paradise on earth, a place she intended to stay for ever. That was until her husband was kidnapped and held under sadistically cruel conditions for almost eight months while she did everything possible to raise the ransom.
During the entire ordeal the State police and the government did nothing to support and assist her or even try to apprehend the kidnappers. Instead they only encouraged her to do what she was told.
Once the husband was released they both left Mexico...he immigrating to the U.S. with her because they both had lost all faith in the Mexican government or their ability to live in Mexico with any sense of security.
I only bring this up to make the point that many of the people coming to America from Mexico (whether legal or illegal) or just as much victims of the corrupt government in that country as we are for having that government's problems passed off onto us.
The government of Mexico....what government?
September 26, 2010 at 9:50 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
seiouslyfolks
Government recognition of a marriage does not a marriage make. I personally think that the government should get out of the marriage business all together.
I agree. Holy Matrimony (marriage) should be the sole purview of the church with each church setting its own rules as per its beliefs. Each church could then extend its own rights and privileges accordingly.
Civil Unions however should be the sole purview of the government. And the government should have the sole power to set the rules accordingly. Rules like survivor benefits, the right to adopt, tax breaks, etc.
All legally joined couples would have to have a civil union to gain the rights and privileges bestowed by the state. All couples wanting the rights and privileges bestowed by the church would have to be married in one. What is so hard about that?
September 26, 2010 at 10:03 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
O.K. biscuitboy, you asked for it .
In the last paragraph of your post on September 25, 2010 at 5:24 p.m.,
" Just like we want to take the freedom of immigrants to live where they want away when they come over here, because their coming here violates our freedom to not wanting them to do so. "
!
Now that is one helluva blanketing and untrue statement . As not all of us/those who oppose " Illegal Immigration or the Illegal Immigrants " who are, by the way, immigrating " Illegally " in much larger numbers than those who immigrate " Legally " and are" Legal Immigrants " ! You have stated or rather flat out accused practically everyone who opposes " Illegal Immigration " as wanting or trying to take away there freedom to live where they want ! Oh, and by the way it is a well known fact, that the largest number of Illegal Immigrants are Mexican, from Mexico . The " Immigration Laws of the individual Countries " are/ is what is saying that an immigrant cannot immigrate to another country, unless they do so by obeying the " Immigration Laws " of that country and following the required procedure to immigrate to a country " Legally " !
Are you suggesting by you accusation, that all Immigration Laws of all countries be scrapped and let the people themselves take care of the Immigration Problem/Problems of their particular country ?
You biscuit are a bit hypocritical aren' t you, if you say in some statements you oppose Illegal Immigration and then you " accuse and bash " those who also oppose Illegal Immigration and there by are also opposing Illegal Immigration .
I don' t think that anyone who opposes " Illegal Immigration or Illegal Immigrants " is desiring to take away anyones freedom to live where they want to, but are opposing the means by which they " Illegally " do so.
This whole discussion/argument/debate is about what is done " Illegally, against the Law " and how things should be done " Legally, obeying the law " and is not about freedoms.
When it comes to a countrys' laws, do you believe that anyone and everyone has the right/freedom to break that countrys' laws, even if they are an immigrant or a legal citizen of that country ?
Do you know that the only way anyone can enter a country, without following and obeying a countrys' immigration laws is to apply for and be granted " Refugee Status " by that country ?
continued,
September 26, 2010 at 10:29 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
continued
Now do you and others who say " Pity or Empathize " with the " Illegal Immigrants " believe that these people are or should be considered " Refugees " ?
If you believe that all " Illegal Immigrants " are " Refugees " , then I suggest that you educate yourself on the term " Refugee " .
Let me help you,
Britannica Concise Encyclopedia: refugee,
Person involuntarily displaced from his or her homeland. Until the late 19th century and the emergence of fixed and closed national boundaries, refugees were always absorbed by neighbouring countries. Later, immigration restrictions and increasing numbers of refugees necessitated special action to aid them. In 1921 Fridtjof Nansen created a League of Nations Passport to allow refugees to move freely across national boundaries. Refugee status at that time was accorded only if the migrant's departure was involuntary and asylum was sought in another country. In 1938 the definition of refugee was expanded to include persons with a well-founded fear of persecution because of ethnicity, religion, nationality, group membership, or political opinion. Later the definition was expanded again to include persons who have fled from their homes to other places in their own countries. Refugee status ceases to apply when the migrant either is resettled or returns home. At the beginning of the 21st century there were some 16 million refugees, including nearly 4 million Palestinians; much of the rest of the world's refugees were in Asia (particularly Afghanistan) and Africa, though conflict in the former Yugoslavia and elsewhere in post-Cold War Europe significantly increased the number of refugees in those regions. See also International Refugee Organization; Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees; United Nations Relief and Rehabilitation Administration.
source, http://www.answers.com/topic/refugee
September 26, 2010 at 10:30 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Steve_Corbin (anonymous) says...
biscuitboy,
sorry, sometimes I get distracted from things by a bright shiny ball.
You know like when the national news is just getting up to speed on the economic conditions debate, then WHAM, a bright shiny ball called Lindsey Low-life or something is on for a 24 hour news cycle.
Or the immigration issue is brought up to bring the emotions into play, and distract people from the issues we can make a difference on.
September 26, 2010 at 11 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
Thank You methusla.....
I am not going to set here and answer all your question about what I think and what I believe. That's because I think I have already adequately explained how I feel about all of this in earlier post.
Besides what I really wanted to hear now was how you believe. Not because I don't already know how you believe...you have made that abundantly clear in past post also. But because I want to prove to everybody that I am not somehow responsible for your no longer being able to express your opinions on the Gazette forum.
So here everybody. Here is methusla's opinions as expressed by him....completely uncensored or unchallenged by me in any way
Post when you want to.......don't post when you don't. But don't always be claiming that whichever thing you do is somehow my fault. Thank You.
September 26, 2010 at 11:01 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Steve_Corbin (anonymous) says...
Whoops, there's that ball again;
Seriouslyfolks,
I'm not sure cause I don't live there but some say that the countries to the south of Mexico are even in worse shape than Mexico. Hence they have a immigration problem on their southern boarder.
September 26, 2010 at 11:04 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
Thank you Steve
Now I understand not only what it means, but why you used it there.
September 26, 2010 at 11:07 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
romano1784 (anonymous) says...
Methusla
The true benefit of these forums is that you can vent your frustrations here in words that otherwise would eat up and cause you to something destructive outside. Everyone here is free to speak their minds and express their thoughts and feelings. But you know all too well that for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction yeah? The same is true of opinions. To tell the truth the debates between yourself and biscuitboy are some of the best I've read, well next to seriously that is. lol He does tend to pop up with some odd things that are hilarious and a little bit Serial. I thank you for your warning to beware of getting blasted. I for one, do not worry about getting railed on here because I only tell things from my point of view, I also have not, as far as i know, tried to dissuade another from their views or beliefs. I just describe my beliefs and views of their opinions.
Everyone that posts here, whether we all agree or disagree, makes a difference. We advance as a culture by expressing our views as individuals and not droning on as the mindless mass that follow orders without thought or regard. Just my opinion folks.
"America for Americans!"
September 26, 2010 at 12:19 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
romano1784 (anonymous) says...
One a completely different topic. Steve Corbin: A friend and I visited your establishment last night and really enjoyed ourselves. The staff was great, nice highlights on the day's games, and the drinks were awesome. Especially loved the cards. "Out to smoke, seat reserved" lol very nice touch!
"America for Americans!"
September 26, 2010 at 12:22 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
REWBA (anonymous) says...
What is America? What is an American? North? Central? South? These are names men made as titles to the space in between the lines men drew on their drawings of this planet.
The planet earth doesn't belong to anyone! Everything here belongs to it...including you! Don't believe me? Try to escape. You will either return or die. Just accept it an go on with your life.
September 26, 2010 at 12:31 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
biscuit and I argue a lot and stuff but we also love each other ................................ in the manliest possible way of course. I appreciate everybody's comments but not necessarily all the content of the comments, I reckon most folks feel the same. I even usually enjoy 'enry's posts, sometimes they get pretty close to being as strange as some of mine.
Look over there ................. immigration!
September 26, 2010 at 12:35 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
romano1784 (anonymous) says...
Rewba
In theory i believe you are correct. The Earth belongs to no particular person. But lets say for grins we go with your description. Anyone can go anywhere. That also means that we dont need to do any kinds of checks on people applying for job, welfare, social security, ect right? I mean after all if they can come from anywhere then they should have the right to ask for anything right?
The world is owned by no one but it is seperated into quadrants known as countries. All the countries are regulated by sets of laws designed, initially, to protect their country from others and themselves. While the world started out as one big ball of fun for everyone to enjoy, its now one ball with a few hundred patches. Each patch has a flag, a language, seperate laws, and a unique culture. Just my opinion.
"America for Americans!"
September 26, 2010 at 12:47 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
seriously....You are soooo strange....and sooooo funny at times! :-)
September 26, 2010 at 1:18 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
Actually, I agree with both REWBA and romano1784. We are all human beings and we all came from common ancestors. In a broad way we are all brothers living on the only spot in the universe that appears capable of sustaining our lives.
But we over the centuries have divided our home up in sections, and we have drawn lines, and we have made laws that we felt best protected us in our section from those in other sections. To now erase all those lines and throw everything open to everybody would be to invite utter chaos. This because all the people living within the have not lines would immediately set out to get inside the have lines. The people inside the have lines, for obvious reasons, don't want them there.
The real crux of the problem is the lines that were drawn often have little reflection as to the capability of the different lines to support their people in a remotely even manner. People a lot smarter than I have written many book trying to explain why the lines ended up where they did and who drew them and why.
But as long as one line island is a barren, dry, mountainous, wind swept plain, and line island next door is a bountiful land flowing with milk and honey....;the people from island one will always be willing to risk much to get to line island two.. How we in line island two handle this discrepancy will go a long way towards defining us as human beings.
Again, I am in no way suggesting we throw open the gates.
September 26, 2010 at 1:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
REWBA (anonymous) says...
romano1784, Under the stars there is one rule. The strong will survive and the weak will fall to the wayside. Laws are made by weak men to protect weak men in the name of protecting the children of the weak. Nature has a way of enforcing it's laws so don't be surprised when the mountains fly into the sky and come back upon the earth to cull the weak life forms and return order to the stars. December 21, 2012 is coming and I for one cannot wait for that day.
September 26, 2010 at 1:44 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
Laws may well be drawn by weak men....but the lines were often imposed on weak men by stronger ones. Most of the lines drawn in the Americas were drawn by men not from the Americas.
They were drawn by men from Spain, Portugal, England, Holland and France as they tried to control the vast riches of the new world for themselves while enslaving the people that were already here to get to those riches.
As soon as the riches were plundered they happily set off in search of more riches in places like China and India. Many of those plunder lines are still what we call countries today.
September 26, 2010 at 2:25 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Steve_Corbin (anonymous) says...
romano 1784,
I am glad to hear you enjoyed yourself, and will pass along your kind words to the kids that were working. thanks.
seriouslyfolks, Your posts just keep on getting better and better.
Would you consider running for city commissioner next year? You probably couldn't do it with your job, huh?
We are going to need someone to replace Jeff Longbine.
September 26, 2010 at 3:22 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
oh4theluvof (anonymous) says...
"December 21, 2012 is coming and I for one cannot wait for that day."
I personally am anxious for Dec. 22, 2012. On that day, I will laugh and laugh at all the silly people who took it so seriously that the dude who was writing the calendar either keeled over, stopping his work, or just decided that he was bored with the project and that if the people of 2012 hadn't figured out the pattern from all his work, they could just not have a calendar anymore. I think that guy would find this all pretty funny.
I'm not sure what he'd think about immigration, but I'm betting he had some life experiences that would make him all for making and enforcing laws to protect the land and the "natives" from the vultures while welcoming the ones who come peacefully by observing and respecting the culture of the land. I'm betting his people had criteria for outsiders to follow by which they would determine whether the outsiders could come in, stay, leave or be killed. Just sayin.'
September 26, 2010 at 3:42 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
Steve,
The powers that be in this town have in the past recognized my genius(and skills at using spell check) and have asked me on several imaginary occasions to take the reigns of this quaint little sprawling community of nearly elderly and some retired folks and become it's Grand Poobah of the first order but I have declined because I've been in the lime light before in many dreams and it has given me much indigestion. So you see my dilemma. What we really need for that position is an illegal immigrant. Those dudes know how to get things done in this country. They can't seem to do much where they're from but when they come here they can do a lot of clever things. That's just one of those things that is so confusin' about the whole thing. Any which way, I am going to suggest that Jose take the job.
September 26, 2010 at 4:26 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
romano1784 (anonymous) says...
Sorry REWBA but 12/12/2012 is based off the Mayan calendar, thus designed by man not nature. Irregardless, there are litterally hundreds of thousands of doomsday prophecies on this planet. How do you know which to take seriously? not you Seriously lol.
September 26, 2010 at 4:29 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
oh4
Much of the criteria was.....Ummmm, outsiders make good slaves and human sacrifices....
September 26, 2010 at 4:43 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
Did you know that the Seventh Day Adventist Church (very big in hospitals like that big research facility in Loma Linda, Calif., and the one right off I-35 in Overland Park) started out as a doomsday cult?
September 26, 2010 at 4:49 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
REWBA (anonymous) says...
romano1784 I could care less what the Mayan's say on their calendar. I'm just going off what NASA found out in space. It is a dwarf star in an elliptical orbit with our sun. It also has planets orbiting it. Anyway, it is called planet X or Nibiru and one of it's planets will come between the earth and the sun and stop our planet from spinning. Once we begin to spin again, we will spin backwards and our sun will rise from the west until the next time planet X comes around. Planet X cannot be seen from the north side of the equator yet but it is being seen in Australia. It will be here in 2012 and the sky people will come and eat humans who don't smoke tobacco. Just wait and see. :-)
September 26, 2010 at 5:04 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
romano1784 (anonymous) says...
Sorry REWBA you and I must have read conflicting stories. Though the articles I've read did not come directly from NASA officials or staff they are using data and statistics from NASA's archives and research.
http://www.universetoday.com/14486/20...
September 26, 2010 at 5:56 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
Doomsday, the Apocalypse, Armageddon, End of days or whatever you wish to call it .
Does any mortal human being, know or have the ability to predict when Doomsday, the Apocalypse, Armageddon, End of days will precisely happen or take place ?
There have been many soothsayers, prophets, etc. over the many millennia, who have predicted or claimed to know when, Doomsday, the Apocalypse, Armageddon, End of days will happen or take place .
Those who believe completely in " Holy Scripture ", believe that Doomsday, the Apocalypse, Armageddon, End of days will happen/take place after Christ has reigned in Heaven for 2000 years or something to that effect ? I don' t remember exactly for sure .
Does any mortal human being know exactly when the 2000 year reign of Christ in Heaven will end and Christ will again return to Earth ? Isn' t it when Christ rose from the grave and ascended to heaven was when his reign in Heaven was supposed to have begun ?
I know it has been said and written that Christ rose from the grave on the third day after his crusifiction, but can anyone pin point exactly in what year did this even take place in ?
Since Christ was supposed to have been crucified and died in his 32 year of life, was this event designated as the year 0 , since everthing before Christ was born is designated as BC and everything after Christs crusification and death is/was designated as AD, exactly what year did Christ die and ascend to ruling in Heaven ?
Would the begining of Christs reign in heave be designated as 3 days A.D.
And since there is no designated year 0, only AD and BC how can anyone predict or say with any certainty when Doomsday, the Apocalypse, Armageddon, End of days will happen or take place.
Does anyone remember when in 1998 or 1999 that quite a few people were dead sure that the world as we know it would come to an end at 12:01 a.m. January 1, 2000 and how that caused a lot of people to panic or get excited ?
I believe that no mortal human being has the absolute power or knowledge to predict or know when Doomsday, the Apocalypse, Armageddon, End of days will happen .
And if it happens it happens and there is nothing human, mortal man is going to be able to do about it.
However I believe that the human species is going to be the ones to bring about Doomsday, the Apocalypse, Armageddon, End of days upon and cause the end of the world as we know it . Other than that happening, Doomsday, the Apocalypse, Armageddon, End of days is completely unknown to mortal human being.
Again this is JMO and again the topic has strayed from " immigration facts " .
And again I hate it when a topic, strays to discussing religion and religious beliefs.
Have a nice evening everyone and a better day tomorrow, in Emporia or where ever you may be !
September 26, 2010 at 6:10 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
biscuit, I will and always say , straight forward what I believe and think .
And if I ever gave/give you or anyone the impression, in my posts that everything I say or don' t say was " Your Fault ", I will appologize, but only if you can prove that I have ever said or implied that what I say or do was ever " Your Fault " !
However I will defend my self and what I believe or think against anyones attacks upon me or insinuating that I am or doing something I am not doing or saying !
I may say some things that are inappropriate or inflamitory, but only in defense of myself .
I will also admit that I have left or threatened to leave the forum over something that was said to me or about me that was not called, for, degrading or made me angry, but I only threaten to leave or actually leave for a time to calm down and regather my composure and thoughts. And I am not above appologizing to anyone for what I may say that was inapropriate or inflamming, if it was not warranted .
September 26, 2010 at 6:29 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
REWBA (anonymous) says...
NASA's IRAS spotted Planet X in 1984 and it was 50 billion miles away from planet earth. Then again in 1992 NASA's IRAS spotted planet X and it was 7 billion miles away from planet earth. Planet X is approaching at a speed that will place it very close to earth in December 2012. The sky people have been working inside our government to keep all this quiet. They have been here since the government prohibited smoking inside government buildings. They are already in Emporia and have prohibited smoking here so they can enter our bars and stay at our motels.
It doesn't hurt to have some really good tobacco on hand to defend yourself from the sky people. I'm just saying :-)
September 26, 2010 at 6:35 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
This is totally of topic. But if you want to see something amazingly crazy go to
www.youtube.com/jokkesommer .
September 26, 2010 at 6:52 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
meth....
Fair enough. How about you and I continue posting our opinions and defending them as needed, and not let what others say upset either of us
September 27, 2010 at 3:29 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
Mexico Plans To Build Fence Along Their Southern Border
The Inter-Press Sevice (IPS) is reporting that the head administrator of the Mexican Superintendency of Tax Administration, Raul Diaz, has confirmed that his government is building a wall in the state of Chiapas, along the Mexican/Guatemalan border.
The official reason is to stop contraband from coming into Mexico, but as Diaz admitted: “It could also prevent the free passage of illegal immigrants.”
According to Mexico's National Commission on Human Rights, 500,000 people from Central America cross into Mexico illegally every year.
Just as Mexican authorities have opposed the construction of a fence by the U.S., along our border with their country, Mexico is now receiving a great deal of criticism from the Guatemalan government.
The executive coordinator of the National Bureau for Migration in Guatemala, Marila de Prince, told a local newspaper: “It is not a correct measure being taken by the Mexican government.”
Erick Maldonado, executive secretary of Guatemala's National Council on Migrants said: “We are watching the Mexican government's initiative with concern because the migrants are in a situation of highest vulnerability, as demonstrated by the massacre in Tamaulipas, where five Guatemalans died.”
September 27, 2010 at 2:04 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
romano1784 (anonymous) says...
"Excuse me Mr. President, in the dictionary under redundant it say see redundancy!" Robin Williams
September 27, 2010 at 2:39 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
What !!!!!! Mexicos' government does not have any " apathy or empethy " for the illegal immigrants from Guatemala, El Salvador, etc. who are entering Mexico illegally and then joing the millions of Mexicans who are entering the U.S. " iLLEGALLY " and the Mexican Government and those who have already entered the U.S. illegally, along with legal U.S. citizens are crying and bitching and accusing some U.S. citizens and the U.S. government, of having no " apathy or empethy " for the poor ole illegal immigrant and are also wanting or suggesting that the U.S. ease its Immigration laws and stop building a fence along the Southwest border of the U.S. or tighten border security and immigration law enforcement !!!
Those who are " apathetic or/and empethetic " toward the illigal immigrants,, need to ask your selves, why is Mexico proposing to build a fence along it southern boarder with Guatemala and why Mexico is against the U.S. securing its border with Mexico in a better manner and building a fence or wall along the border with Mexico ?
It would seem to me whats is good and right for Mexico, would also be good and right for the U.S. and its legal citizens !
No " apathetic or empethetic " answers please, just sound thought out common sense answers please .
September 27, 2010 at 3:01 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
open_eyes
Where you been dude? It was my sarcastic remark about national fence building brought on by this fence that soured the tone of this discussion a couple of days ago. :-) Does make Mexico look pretty hypocritical though doesn't it?
September 27, 2010 at 3:06 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
Now methusla...you don't get to choose what kind of answers other people give. If they want to give apathetic or empathetic answers that is their privilege. :-)
September 27, 2010 at 3:11 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
There is also a rumor or fact ???
That the U.S. government is helping fund the southern Mexico border fence to the tune of 1.5 billion dollars !
Developing: Mexico’s Southern Border Fence
By drillanwr, on September 21, 2010, at 12:17 pm
And the crickets chirp ...
I am wondering where are the American media and the 'activists' that carry "RACIST" signs in demonstrations inside this country. Mexico, under the cover of all these people, is building a fence on their own southern border. A google search of this subject after I heard Glenn Beck mention it on his radio program this morning resulted in these two sources:
WRAL: 1.4 billion to help mexico build their southern border fence
Examiner: Hypocritical Mexico is now building their own wall on border with Guatemala...press ignores
Beck's own news blog The Blaze is working on the story. If there is anything new there I will update this post with the link.
source,http://babalublog.com/2010/09/developing-mexicos-southern-border-fence/
September 27, 2010 at 3:12 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
You may also want to take a look at the following site,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fT30jK...
September 27, 2010 at 3:15 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
Sorry, biscuit, I just couldn' t help myself ! IIIIII' m a BBBBBad Boy !
September 27, 2010 at 3:17 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
I imagine Mexico is building the fence to keep Guatemalans out of Mexico. I also imagine Mexico is opposed to the U.S. building a fence because it wants to let Mexicans out Mexico and into the U.S.
I am opposed to us building a fence and manning it along the entire border because I believe it (just like the Republicans renewed star wars initiative) would cost us a lot more to build maintain and operate than we would gain from having it. If you want to keep the illegals out of the U.S., dry up the jobs and the benefits and you won't need a fence.
No apathy or empathy there.
September 27, 2010 at 3:26 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
Sorry biscuit, I haven't been following this that close, so didn't see your remark on national fence building - then went back and found where blulitespecial had already posted the story. Guess not many people followed the link. I apologize for the redundancy.
What happens next is the usual outcry from the rest of the media complaining about how FoxNews lies all the time. (As usual). Then slowly, after they lose even more market share to people getting fed up with what they don't cover, they pick up the story - reluctantly (as usual).
Or something much more important like Lindsay Lohan's latest shenanigans will steal the spotlight. Which reminds me..... anyone see the REAL news of the other day? When Colbert testified before Congress (not that story) - but the one it overshadowed, about another Justice Department high-ranker coming forward and saying he's fed up with the policy of not pursuing voter intimidation & fraud cases against whites? Mr. Holder, I'm sure you paid more attention to that one then you did Mr. Colbert..... or maybe not.....
September 27, 2010 at 3:34 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
But, biscuit, wouldn' t drying up the jobs almost be an impossiblilty, without implementing a more forceful border security as well as stronger and hightened enforcement of the penalties against those who hire illegal immigrants ?
As I see it ... it would take both measures to even start to solve the illegal immigration/immigrant problem.
And again, I also believe that amnesty, automatic citizenship any easing of the immigration laws or requirements to legally immigrate to the U.S. would also, solve nothing !
After all back before the early part of the 20th century the U.S. had no immigration laws and the immigrants came by the millions. The Federal Government, evidently saw a potential growing problem, and passed and implemented immigration laws, starting mostly in 1924 . So easing the requirements or laws to immigrate to the U.S., I believe will solve no problems what-so-ever . Neither will " Amnesty " for illegal Immigrants or automatic citizenship, as there will still not be enough jobs to support the millions of now " legal " U.S. citizens, let alone those who have been " legal " U.S. citizens for years !
Again, I guess I am saying better and stronger enforcement of the existing immigration laws would be a plus !
And those who say that the Government of the U.S. is going to do absolutely nothing about the problem are absolutely, unequivoclly correct ... as long as there is money to be made off of " illegal immigration " , " Illegal immigrants " and hiring " illegal immigrants " with basically no, or very little punishment.
September 27, 2010 at 4:37 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
Hey open_eyes. My where you been dude remark was only that, an acknowledgement that I had missed you on a topic that seemed right down your alley. I realized too late that it didn't read that way. Sorry for the confusion.
As to voter intimidation and fraud. I can only say that I am as white as they get. Blond hair (back when I had hair), blue eyes, the whole nine yards. I have also spent most of my time (in Emporia anyway) living in precincts with significant minority populations. I have never one time felt any tiny threat of intimidation from anybody at the polls. I have felt intimidation at times because of the bumper stickers on my vehicles.
I wonder if this voter intimidation stuff is not just another bright shiny ball...another case of seeing the devil where you expect to find him
September 27, 2010 at 4:53 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
Been busy, just haven't had time to keep up, and vacation very soon, so I'm just behind all the way around ;-)
That is exactly what alot of the media is trying to make it out to be, a bright shiny ball. But anyone who actually delves into the issue, specifically the one that the Bush admin won the civil suit against and then Holder threw out, would see that it is anything but. What do you think the media & admin would do if it had been Klan members there doing the exact same thing?
September 27, 2010 at 5:06 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
methusla
You wrote; "And those who say that the Government of the U.S. is going to do absolutely nothing about the problem are absolutely, unequivocally correct ... as long as there is money to be made off of " illegal immigration " , " Illegal immigrants " and hiring " illegal immigrants " with basically no, or very little punishment."
That is exactly how I suggest we dry up the jobs. Make it very costly for the people that hire illegals and then give those same employers the tools they need to tell who is who. I don't buy that the illegals are such skilled forgers that we couldn't identify their bogus papers if we had any real incentive to do so.
And for the record, I personally have never supported amnesty or blanket citizenship. All I have ever done is try to place some of the blame where it really belongs rather than just dumping it all on the illegal. Is it any more the fault of the hungry man for picking up and eating that beautiful turkey club sandwich you sat down in front of him than it is yours for setting it there.
September 27, 2010 at 5:13 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
open_eyes
I'm not denying the possibility of some isolated incidents.....and there have been times when it was the Klan doing the very same type thing. When such incidents are discovered I believe they should be pursued and handled in our courts with our laws. And makes no matter who is doing it.
But based on my long life's experience, and the relative rarity of reporting on such things, I am less than convinced that this is some kind of an orchestrated national plot to destroy the white man. Handle it where it shows up...but to try and turn it into a major national problem has all the earmarks of a bright shiny ball to me.
September 27, 2010 at 5:23 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
biscuit, I appologize if it sounded as though I was pointing a fingure at you, in particular, that was not my intention ! I am just tired of anyone even suggesting amnesty or automatic citizenship would solely and completely solve the problem being discussed on this thread .
And whay you say about making it very costly for for those who hire illegal immigrants and the tools to better check the immigration status of immigrants. However if those tools were given to employers, Would they use them and how would the use of tools be policed as to proper use or that the tools are even being used ?
And in this age of technology and computers, the ability to make very good forgeries of just about anything has become mush easier .
September 27, 2010 at 5:53 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
I think alot of people in power manage to keep a lid on alot of things they don't want to get out by characterizing them as bright shiny balls. Belittle, discredit, etc. It's "business as usual" in Washington.....
"Adams said that when the Black Panther case came up, he heard officials in the department say it was "no big deal" and "media-generated" and point to "Fox News" as the source.
But as the investigation unfolded, he said he discovered "indications" that the Black Panther Party was doing the "same thing" to supporters of former presidential candidate Hillary Clinton during the Democratic primary season in early 2008."
Nobody ever said anything about it being an "orchestrated national plot to destroy the white man". What WAS said was that it is policy to either pursue or ignore cases - based on race. Not exactly the policy a democratic society should be pursuing. And certainly not the earmark of a so-called "post-racial" administration...... not to mention, a absolute violation of the law. And they even harass minorities - if the case is against minorities. "An African American attorney and his mother (who also works for DOJ) were harassed for working on a voting case brought against an African American defendant." So there goes the silly "destroy the white-man" theory.
I know many want to portray it as another bright shiny ball. The Department has painted the latest guy to testify as a hardcore right-winger.
What they fail to tell you is, that he was not only appointed under Clinton, but is a former ACLU voting-rights attorney.
http://www.examiner.com/scotus-in-was...
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/...
September 27, 2010 at 6 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
I know this is off-topic, but just wanted to show that sometimes the "bright shiny ball" goes the other way, as well - sometimes they're quite successful at trying to make things alot bigger than they really are.
Latest news: "Using new methods, the study researchers calculated new estimates of ice loss in Greenland and Antarctica that are significantly smaller than previous estimates."
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39382469/...
September 27, 2010 at 6:10 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
meth....to me it is a matter of the level of commitment. If we are committed enough to drying up the jobs we will be able to dry up the jobs. If we lack commitment, we won't be able to no matter what else we do.
I however believe we could put forth enough commitment to dry up the jobs for a lot less money, and in about the same amount of time, as it would cost us to build a fence, and train and equip the people to work that fence, along the almost two thousand mile border between our two countries. JMO
September 27, 2010 at 6:22 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
Well open_eyes, since I (by my own admission) never watch Fox News, and this has been so far primarily a Fox News and other right wing outlet story, I don't know much about it. When the other outlets start bringing me more information I will start paying more attention.
But to be real honest there have been so many bright shiny balls out there lately I have not been spending too much time watching any television news. I don't like wearing my sunglasses in the house all the time.
In the meantime, since it is not a silly destroy the white man theory, then I'm not going to get too worked up about it and just assume it is more politics as usual.
September 27, 2010 at 6:38 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mslater (Matt Slater) says...
REWBA,
I think you might be combining Zecharias Sitchin with Avatar, haha. I like it though!
Matt
September 27, 2010 at 10:10 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
It scares me to rely on any particular network, when they are all biased to some degree or another, to determine (for me) what THEY consider "newsworthy". I'd just rather they report it & let me decide whether or not I want to "get worked up about it."
You know, kindof a "We Report, You Decide" type approach........
September 27, 2010 at 10:31 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
That's what television news tried to be for a short period of time back in the late seventies and early eighties. But then a couple of channels discovered what we called T&A or jiggle programing and their ratings went through the roof. The masses had been given what they wanted.......sensationalized crap......news as entertainment. That's when I left the business never to return.
Now it's all about political punditry...sensationalized crap with greater risk for harm. And I am not singling them out, there are certainly others, but FOX News and MSNBC, have certainly helped lead the charge.
I really don't watch much TV (so called) News.
September 28, 2010 at 3:05 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
I never watch them but I do know that "WE Report....You Decide" is one of the bogus slogans of Fox News. You never stop trying do you open_eyes....lol
September 28, 2010 at 3:10 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
Correct - I never stop trying to open your eyes.... ;-)
September 28, 2010 at 8:17 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Steve_Corbin (anonymous) says...
1 Large white onion
1 Large cucumber
1 package creme cheese
2-4 tablespoons mayo or salad dressing.
Hand chop peeled onion and cucumber into
small pieces. DO NOT USE A FOOD PROCESSOR!
Add to softened creme cheese and mayo and stir well
LOTS of salt and pepper to taste
great for dip or on baked taters.
September 28, 2010 at 2:26 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
create (anonymous) says...
Very Persian, Steve. Thanks for being multicultural. Sounds good too.
September 28, 2010 at 5:29 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
open-eyes
The Washington Post reported that Adams was hired by the Bush administration and in fact worked developing this case under Bush...not appointed by Clinton. It also said the incident occurred in a heavily black precinct that had voted democratic for years....not exactly a great location for intimidating white voters. Only one of the alleged defendants actually wielded a ball bat.
Here's the link
www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content...
None of the above is meant to justify voter intimidation against anybody....just trying to put the case in perspective.
Abigail Thernstrom, a commission member and a senior fellow at the conservative Manhattan Institute, called it "small potatoes"....... Thernstrom said that she did not find Adams's testimony convincing and that the facts of the case raised doubts in her mind,
September 28, 2010 at 5:50 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
REWBA (anonymous) says...
mslater, I had never heard of Zecharias Sitchin. Is it a video game or something?
September 28, 2010 at 5:53 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
I wasn't talking about Adams, I was talking about Coates, who came out with testimony the same day as Colbert's comic bit in Congress, who was a hired as a career attorney during the Clinton administration. Do try to keep up.
And by the way......since, by your own admission, you never watch Fox.... then how do you know its "bogus"? You can't have decided for yourself since you don't watch it. Someone else tell you that? And you take it at their word for truth? Someone...... in competition with them?
I do actually watch some of the other networks. I get my news, views, and opinions from a variety of sources. I never rely on what someone says about their competition. Or what any particular administration or politician says about anything that isn't favorable to them. I guess the last 8 years, everyone else in the media was just "bogus"..... right?
September 28, 2010 at 9:04 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
Zecharias Sitchin wrote some books claiming the theory that humanity came from or was influenced by ancient astronauts, sortof along the
Erich Von Daniken line.... he wrote about the "twelfth planet"....
September 28, 2010 at 9:07 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
It seems Abigail Thermstron is all over the place, and contradicts herself regularly. When one of the witnesses, Chris Hill, testified, "After she heard Hill’s testimony, Commissioner Thernstrom admitted that those people “were intimidated…I mean I take seriously when anybody is intimidated".
And then tells NBC that "we do not have any, any, evidence of actual intimidation". Yet she also co-wrote a letter to the Justice Department in which she said she "feel[s] strongly that the dismissal of this case weakens the agency's moral obligation to prevent voting rights violations, including acts of voter intimidation or vote suppression. We cannot understand the rationale for this case's dismissal...." On December of last year, three months after she had registered dissent from the Commission on Civil Rights' decision to investigate the Panther case for its statutorily required annual report, she wrote at National Review that she agrees Attorney General Eric Holder is "the most destructive member of Barack Obama's Cabinet" for a number of reasons that specifically included "the dismissal of charges against members of the New Black Panther Party who engaged in blatant voter intimidation at a Philadelphia polling place."
Not only can she not make up her mind, but I'm curious how many people and how many ball-bats must be wielded to make it a case worthy of paying attention to. I didn't realize there was a magic number. Is it stated in the fine print of the law somewhere?
September 28, 2010 at 9:22 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
But the real point isn't about whether or not this or any other particular case is "small potatoes", or how many ball bats are the minimum number before it is deemed newsworthy. The point is our own government promoting and enforcing a RACIST POLICY. Which is why Coates defied the Justice Department's gag order. He said he'd had enough.
At the very same time they sue states for trying to enforce existing Federal immigration laws on the grounds that it "might" be racially discriminatory.
So there's where our government stands, with much of the media in their pocket "getting chills running up and down their leg" (what an idiot to be a newsperson). When I see reporters saying things like that........it doesn't take me long to truly figure out what is "bogus" and what is not......
September 28, 2010 at 9:40 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
Hit a nerve there didn't I. I'm amused that the term bogus didn't seem to bother you at all in your first response yesterday morning. But after I questioned a couple of your "facts" with "facts" gathered from someplace else the term bogus has taken on a whole new meaning to you. It appears open_eyes doesn't like having his facts challenged.
You overlooked what I thought was the most important "fact" in my post. That being that this incident occurred in a heavily black precinct that always voted democratic. That in and of itself does not absolve it of "possible" voter intimidation...but it does make it a little harder to call it racially motivated. Of course if the racial aspect is removed then it is no longer an effective bright shniy ball.
I will try harder to keep up if you try harder to make things clear. I read back over your post and never found any mention made by you of a fellow named Choates. I did however find you quoting a fellow named Adams. If you want me to keep the names straight...please provide me with the names. lol
September 28, 2010 at 11:26 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
There, I did finally find Choates name in your link but you should know by now that people don't always read links. I am especially likely not to read them when they are for the Examiner site or Fox News.....both sites widely considered to have an agenda. If you want to make sure your post are clear you can not assume people always go to links.
September 28, 2010 at 11:35 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
You may not always go to links yourself. Since I just tried going to the link I provided earlier and found it to be not working. Hmm, don't know. I thought I tested it when I first put it up.
September 28, 2010 at 11:48 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
I am a curious person by nature...and my nature makes me very curious about some parts of this incident.
First....why did a white camera crew, self-identified only as "from the news media.....The University of Pennsylvania," just happen to be at a polling place in a predominantly black section of Philadelphia....apparently not their polling place......on election day with a camera?
My curious nature causes me to wonder if they really did just happen to be there....or did they know exactly what they were going to find? If they knew exactly what they were going to find, my curious nature causes me to wonder how and why they knew that? Then my curious nature cause me to wonder if it might have been a set up? What perhaps had gone before to bring these two dissimilar groups together that day?
Now, I am not just pulling that set-up scenario out of thin air. No....my curious nature leads me back to the not too distant "incident" between an ACORN worker and a supposed pimp and his prostitute. When all the truth behind that incident was revealed it was clear that it was a carefully crafted and scripted set up designed specifically to illicit the desired responses needed to make ACORN look as bad as possible
My curious nature then causes me to wonder if it worked once......why not try it again? My curious nature also causes me to wonder if any body else unable to see the validity of these question is blind...or complicit in the subterfuge
September 29, 2010 at 12:58 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
Just because I never watch them (Fox News) now doesn't mean that I never watched them ever. I watched them occasionally up until "I" decided they were bogus. I may not be the world's smartest person. But I don't need somebody else to tell me what to think.
And although I do "think" that Fox News is bogus, I was calling their slogan "We Report...You Decide' bogus in my earlier post. But what it really is is a catchy little meaningless phrase that could be used by any "news" outlet irregardless of their political bent or agenda.
So they report their right-leaning--left-bashing version of bogus news.....and I decide not to watch them any more. It's as simple as that.
September 29, 2010 at 6:42 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
My apologies on the confusion, my original mention of the story was about who testified recently, and I pointed out his background, so when you pointed out Adams background, I assumed we got crossed on who we were talking about.
I would imagine a crew showed up because of reports and complaints by folks. That should be pretty obvious I would think.
As far as ACORN is concerned..... they could have easily told the folks - sorry, we don't support prostitution. Stings and undercover work happen every day. Can't always say when it uncovers something you don't like that its legit and when it uncovers something you don't like it isn't. Any organization that employs people with that attitude and willing aid illegal activities in that manner deserves what they get.
Besides, I think I'll stick with reporters who don't get any particular chill running up their leg for any politician, thank you ;-). Thank God there's SOMEONE out there who doesn't take their marching orders from where most everyone else does. I do realize most people don't like any news that doesn't agree with their point of view, but I'd rather let everyone - including both sides - have a voice. Unless you'd prefer an American version of TASS ;-)
September 29, 2010 at 8:11 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
It also appears you are telling me that not only do the number of ball bats matter, but where it takes place matters as well. So, if it was the KKK in a predominately white area, it also wouldn't matter as much?
There were 2 news stories that day - 1) yet another high-ranking official in the Justice Dept (formerly worked at ACLU) defied a gag order & came forward, named names, etc...... and 2) a comedian did a comedy bit before Congress. Most media only reported on one (apparently it was more important, because he was in a non-comedy area, and might have even had several bats (in his belfry). But other media reported on both. But of course that's bogus ;-)
But again, the main point, and point of this thread, is that our government promotes racist policies on one hand, and sues states that try to enforce laws (their own Federal laws) that they think "might" be racial.
As Cliff Clavin used to say, "What's up with that?"
September 29, 2010 at 8:30 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
But if the crew that shows up was a "news media.....The University of Pennsylvania" crew it makes me wonder why such a poorly identified news outlet from a college campus was called rather than a more mainstream station? Why was a "crew" called from an organization that wasn't really media in the normal sense at all unless it was a set-up deal just like the ACORN deal? The ACORN worker was sucker punched by people posing as clients asking questions specifically designed to get the desired response.
I, like you, would like to see more of an investigation into this incident. But unlike you, I would like to see the incident itself investigated in more detail, looking more closely at what had gone before....why the panthers said they were there, why an amateur "news crew" was called, and who called them? In my mind....some things just don't add up. To me, the most important part of this story is the things we still don't know.
I must have missed the reporter with the chill running up and down her leg story because I don't know what you are talking about there. It must have been one of those stories that ran on Fox... :-)
September 29, 2010 at 8:47 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
Chris Matthews, on MSNBC. Chill up his leg when Obama speaks ;-)
ACORN could have given any response they chose. I wouldn't have given those answers, and they could "sucker punch" me all they wanted.
As I said...it isn't this particular story so much that bothers me, it is the racial policy of the Justice Dept. Especially glaring in light of their actions against Arizona.
September 29, 2010 at 8:56 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
open_eyes says,
"It also appears you are telling me that not only do the number of ball bats matter, but where it takes place matters as well. So, if it was the KKK in a predominately white area, it also wouldn't matter as much?"
No, if it was indeed voter intimidation it would still matter...it just wouldn't be racial. What I have still not heard from anyone is what the Black Panthers said was their reason for being there...the right is just assuming they were there to intimidate voters but they never said why they were there. At least not to my knowledge.
September 29, 2010 at 8:56 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
Since this thread has basically gotten way off course and flowed into a discussion as to which or what news media or organization is or is not bogus and which of the news they report is bogus, truthful or based on facts.
I would like to pose this question ,
Which of the so called news media organizations and that inclues the Emporia Gazette " ARE NOT " influenced or steered in some way by a political party, individual or organization, it' s/their support for a candidate, their money or agenda, thereby making most of their reporting and views mostly bogus or biased ?
I would also like to here opinions as to what some of you might think of Cspan and Cspan2 and Cspan3 !
C-SPAN does not accept outside advertising; the only commercials aired are for its own programming and products.
C-SPAN operates three television channels, one radio station and several websites that provide streaming media including archives of many C-SPAN programs. The television networks are:
C-SPAN which provides uninterrupted live coverage of the United States House of Representatives. Also airs Washington Journal live every morning
C-SPAN2 which provides uninterrupted live coverage of the United States Senate. It also airs Book TV on weekends (branded Book TV on C-SPAN2)
C-SPAN3 which features other uninterrupted live public affairs events and airs a large amount of archived historical programming branded as C-SPAN3 History
September 29, 2010 at 8:58 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
This might be of interest to some of you, who are disattisfied with the regular, " bogus " news agencies.
THE C-SPAN MISSION
C-SPAN is a public service created by the American cable television industry:
To provide C-SPAN's audience access to the live gavel-to-gavel proceedings of the U.S. House of Representatives and the U.S. Senate, and to other forums where public policy is discussed, debated and decided--all without editing, commentary or analysis and with a balanced presentation of points of view;
To provide elected and appointed officials and others who would influence public policy a direct conduit to the audience without filtering or otherwise distorting their points of view;
To provide the audience, through the call-in program, direct access to elected officials, other decision makers and journalists on a frequent and open basis;
To employ production values that accurately convey the business of government rather than distract from it; and
To conduct all other aspects of its operations consistent with these principles.
September 29, 2010 at 9:03 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
Hope I didn't give Chris a gender crisis calling him a her. :-)
President Obama is an eloquent speaker. Maybe Matthews was complimenting his delivery...or maybe he had a cold draft blowing up his pant leg.....I have no idea.
The more I think about it the more I think I might have seen that comment....but if I did I thought he was commenting on the President's oratory style and delivery and the way he could capture a crowd...not particularly on the points he was making.
As always, it goes back to where we look for the devil.
September 29, 2010 at 9:09 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
meth
You are right......virtually every news organization, and certainly every news reporter, carries into the job certain preconceived notions of the nature of the world. Those notions can't keep from creeping into their work at times no matter how hard they might try to keep them out.
I think C-Span is wonderful and does a great job of what it does. Unfortunately, most people have neither the time or inclination to invest in getting their facts that way. Most instead prefer to find the outlet that tells them what they want to hear and then pretend that what they are getting is "news". That's what keeps Fox and MSNBC in business.
September 29, 2010 at 9:20 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
But my main point remains unanswered. Racial bias is ok when the government says it is ok.
September 29, 2010 at 10:43 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
Sorry, hit return too soon. But that is a point of this discussion, and relevant to this thread. How can the government sue Arizona on the basis of "the possibility" of racism, when it promotes racist policies itself?
September 29, 2010 at 10:44 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
Our government has promoted racist policies at different times through out its history.
Slavery was a government supported racist policy......
All the various Jim Crow laws were government supported racist policies......
Segregation of the troops during World War Two was a government supported racist policy as was school segregation until Brown v Topeka Board of Education in the fifties. But all that time the racist policies were openly aimed at blacks and the policies were openly discriminatory against blacks.
But now that we have the first African_American President in our long racial history....and you would think that any time the government does not openly support policies sympathetic to the white view it is somehow racism gone rampant. Bull....
And this is also relevant to this thread.
September 29, 2010 at 11:08 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
methusla, I would bring your points back around to awhile back when the discussion floated about why there were hardly ever any Gazette editorials to present a balance to a certain Gazette editors frequent and predictable far-left rants? I don't have a problem with either side getting in their point of view..... as long as both sides get it in. That is what is sorely lacking in certain media outlets. Not whether their commentators lean one way or another, but more whether they just fill up their show with a bunch of yes-men or whether they have an active open discussion with all points of view represented.
Like immigration (this thread). How come the Justice Department doesn't sue itself? - lol ;-)
September 29, 2010 at 11:10 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
No, its not racism "gone rampant". And you are absolutely correct, our government HAS supported racist policies in its history.
And they were all wrong. And it took people pointing it out and complaining, taking a stand, to get things changed.
So when I see it - I complain. I could look the other way, try to explain it away that well, after all, its fair retribution, there weren't enough ball bats, etc....... or I could just say this is a wrong and needs to be made right. I would hope that our society as a whole is getting past things like that - you know, like a "post-racial" administration and slogans like that.....
Or hypocrites.
September 29, 2010 at 11:14 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
Do 2 wrongs make a right?
September 29, 2010 at 11:14 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
It appears to me the Arizona initiative is trying to set two different playing fields for Hispanics and Whites. That has been the modus operandi through most of our history. Now the government is saying the playing field must be level.....you can't require things of one you do not require of both. And that is somehow spun as being racist.
September 29, 2010 at 11:16 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
If the Arizona initiative required whites to be swept up in Sheriff Joe's sweeps and checked for their papers. If it required white people to always be prepared to offer proof of citizenship on demand....and then demand that proof.... in roughly equal numbers as Hispanics. If failure to offer such proof immediately on demand could result in your arrest...then I would say the playing field was level. But as of now it is not. If you are Hispanic you are presumed guilty until proven innocent. If you are white you are just presumed innocent. That's not level.
September 29, 2010 at 11:26 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Steve_Corbin (anonymous) says...
Lindsay Lohan, 24, is all over the news because she's a celebrity drug addict. While Justin Allen 23, Brett Linley 29, Matthew Weikert 29, Justus Bartett 27, Dave Santos 21, Chase Stanley 21, Jesse Reed 26, Matthew Johnson 21, Zachary Fisher 24, Brandon King 23, Christopher Goek 23, and... Sheldon Tate 27 are all Marines that gave their lives this week, no media mention. Honor THEM by reposting
September 29, 2010 at 11:27 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
It appears to me (and people working within the Dept) that the Justice department policy towards voter intimidation cases is trying to set two different playing fields for Whites and non-whites. That has been the modus operanid through most of our history. Now people are saying that the government should follow its own law and make the playing field equal.... you can't require things of one you do not require of both. And that is somehow spun as NOT racist?
Couldn't have said it better myself. :-)
September 29, 2010 at 11:28 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
biscuit, I do take time to watch Cspan as often as I possibly can and would rather get my information from Cspan, whenever possible or feasible to do so.
I love Cspan and what they are trying to do.
I have another, possibly controversial question .
Do Illegal Immigrants vote in General, Primary and Local elections and issues ?
And if so, why is it allowed ?
I believe that I already have a percieved notion as to the answer to both questions, but would like to get someone elses thoughts and notions .
September 29, 2010 at 12:39 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
I never leave home without identification. Most of the time I leave, I drive, therefor I carry my driver's license with me (as required by law). If someone picks me up, I still take my wallet, so I have money/credit cards if I need to eat, etc. Again, basically..... I never leave the house without my wallet and identification. But if I do forget, and I get stopped for running a red light or something, and cannot produce identification as required by law, then I expect to be subject to the same things as anyone else. It is racist to require one race to carry identification when driving but not another. Also, the point, again, is overlooked that the Arizona law states that the person must already be involved in a legitimate police action. They cannot just randomly go pick people off the street and demand id.
Of course, Federal agents have no such restriction. By Law.
September 29, 2010 at 12:53 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
Well meth....they certainly aren't supposed to. Legal immigrants aren't supposed to either. Legally the only people that are supposed to vote are U.S. Citizens whether they be natural-born or naturalized. I would never be so naive as to try to claim that none ever do vote.....I'm sure that at least a few have in the past and do today. How large those numbers are is any body's guess. Just trying to put myself in their shoes, I would think the number would be quite small. If I was illegally in this country trying to work and avoid detection, I would think trying to vote in our elections would not be high on my priority list. Hell, voting in our elections is not even high on the priority list of most Americans. :-)
To what extent some do and get away with it I would suppose they do so because we have not put sufficient emphasis on keeping them from it. Of course such emphasis would cost more money which we apparently are not willing to pay.
September 29, 2010 at 1:02 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
open_eyes
Of course any body that operates a vehicle is expected to have identification in the form of a license. I wonder how common it is for people that don't drive to always carry one...but as long as the rules were the same....and applied with the same enthusiasm....it would be equal application. I do however doubt that Sheriff Joe and his famous sweeps are always applied to whites and browns equally. But that is my opinion.
But we digress here from the real issue. The real reason the Justice Department has intervened in this is it's view that immigration enforcement is the role of the federal government, and the Arizona law usurps that role. What they are saying is if you don't like immigration policy, work to change it on the federal level...don't just have every state take off on it's own writing it's own policies. That is the crux of this issue and it has gotten lost in all this bellyaching about Obama's racist policies.
September 29, 2010 at 1:16 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
But it does no good to work to change it at the Federal level when the Feds won't enforce their own rules.
The Constitution is clear that states have the right to take whatever actions they deem necessary to protect themselves when the Federal government is either unable or unwilling to.
Article 1, Section 10:
"No State shall, without the Consent of Congress, lay any duty of Tonnage, keep Troops, or Ships of War in time of Peace, enter into any Agreement or Compact with another State, or with a foreign Power, or engage in War, unless actually invaded, or in such imminent Danger as will not admit of delay."
To quote a phrase from Alan Keyes, "Surely, if the a state may, without federal authorization, go to war to protect its citizens from the imminent danger arising from foreign invasion of one type, it may, authorized by the letter and spirit of existing federal law, act to protect its citizens from the actual damage being inflicted upon them by an ongoing foreign invasion of another type."
THIS is the crux of the matter that has gotten lost in all this calling everyone that wants the Feds to do their jobs a bunch of racists. If the Feds did their job....... Arizona wouldn't need to.
September 29, 2010 at 2:30 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
That is exactly the crux of the matter and that is what the SCOTUS will ultimately have to decide. This is a constitutional case if there ever was one.
September 29, 2010 at 2:38 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
biscuitboy says...
"That is the crux of this issue and it has gotten lost in all this bellyaching about Obama's racist policies."
open_eyes says....
"THIS is the crux of the matter that has gotten lost in all this calling everyone that wants the Feds to do their jobs a bunch of racists."
You and I really crack me up some times. Black-white, right-left, up-down, over-under. We don't care. What ever one says the other disagrees.... :-)
September 29, 2010 at 2:45 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
Glad I could give you a chuckle there, biscuitboy ;-)
Again. If the Feds enforced their own laws, Arizona wouldn't have to. We have areas in a National Park that are no longer deemed safe for Americans. The government response? Put up warning signs.
I would say, that's a pretty clear example of the governments unwillingness to protect Arizona's sovereignty. Perhaps the SCOTUS will have to order our feds to do their job ;-)
September 29, 2010 at 3 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
I just simply want the Feds to do their job. In BOTH cases. Uphold the law. Their OWN law. I couldn't care less if it was black-white, right-left, up-down, or over-under.
September 29, 2010 at 3:03 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
Biscuit, I agree with your answer to a certain degree. However I believe that the number of illegal immigrants, etc. that are voting is larger than you or I can even guess and since the illegal immigrants and there friends seem to be able to dictate U.S. law to a certain extent, example, Arizonas attempt to control illegal immigration and illegal immigrants, I believe that the Feds'/Obamas and the courts stance has/will embolden the illegal immigrant population in the U.S. and those who wish to enter the U.S. illegally, even more than the boldness they are now exhibiting !
After all, the illegal immigrants do have access to excellent sources of forged/fraudlent documents and the last I knew, when they go to get a drivers license, they don't even have to speak or read English, they only have to have someone with them to interpret for them, at least that is what I was told by one of the license examiners, when I asked, several years back. If you can' t read or speak a countrys language, how in the world are you going to be able to read and know what a street, highway or other sign is saying ? Have an interpreter with you at all times ?
September 29, 2010 at 3:37 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
You don't have to be a citizen to have a drivers license...you supposedly do have to be one to vote. I personally don't believe some "wet-back" forger working in a garage somewhere could produce documents so good they couldn't be detected if we were willing to put the effort into detecting them. Part of the problem in the past was the tendency of voter registration office to accept a Drivers License only as proof of eligibility to vote. I certainly hope that is no longer the case.
But look....I am not denying that we need some comprehensive immigration reform in this country. And that includes drying up the motivation these people have for coming here illegally in the first place...things like access to jobs, benefits, and yes even anchor babies.
What I am saying is that reform needs to take place in a comprehensive way at the federal level......not just in some mish-mash fashion by the states. Now the last several administrations....both Republican and Democrat....have been unwilling or unable to accomplish that task and both always try to blame it all on the other. I'm sick of the blame. I want the reform done right I don't care what animal suit is being worn to get it done.
But I don't think each state being allowed to write it's own laws, while we spend a colossal fortune building a fence is the right way to go about it. JMO
September 29, 2010 at 4:02 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
I totally agree with your paragraph 3 above. Both are at fault, and blame the other. Neither enforces our existing laws. And therein lies the problem. I must say I can't blame states for saying they are fed up with it and taking matters into their own hands to protect their citizens. As the law clearly states they have the right to do. I would prefer they let the feds handle it also.
But the feds won't.
September 29, 2010 at 4:32 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
In politics, absurdity is not a handicap.
- Napoleon Bonaparte
September 30, 2010 at 3:50 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Steve_Corbin (anonymous) says...
http://www.armytimes.com/news/2010/09...
September 30, 2010 at 8:27 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
Just another one of America's finest Steve!
September 30, 2010 at 9:14 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )