A truck is coming up from south of Emporia on Kansas Highway 99 with a delivery for a company in Industrial Park III in southeast Emporia.
If you were a city leader in charge of setting a route for the truck, would you:
• Tell the truck to take a right on Logan Avenue. The truck would have to drive past Logan Avenue Elementary School.
• Tell the truck to take a right on South Avenue. The truck would have to drive past residential homes.
• Tell the truck to take a right on Sixth Avenue and another right on Weaver Street. The truck would have to drive through downtown.
That is the predicament facing Emporia city commissioners as they attempt to update truck routes for the first time in 24 years. The commission seems to be leaning toward allowing trucks on Logan and South avenues rather than making them go a longer route with a tricky turn downtown. A final decision will be made at the Nov. 3 commission meeting.
Right now, there is no truck route into the industrial park. Trucks are allowed to leave an existing truck route to make deliveries by using the shortest method possible. Therefore using Logan and South avenues is OK for trucks coming from K-99.
They shouldn’t be, said Stan Fowler, a former Lyon County commissioner. Fowler said it was always intended that Weaver Street be the route into and out of the park for trucks.
“South and Logan are residential areas with kids crossing to go to school,” Fowler told the commission at a past study session.
Fowler said local truck drivers would probably know to be careful going down those two streets but out-of-town drivers wouldn’t be as aware of the homes and school. Fowler, who lives near South Avenue, said residents were told at the time the park was being built that trucks would be restricted to Weaver.
But Weaver was never designated a truck route, he said.
Although not ruling it out, City Manager Matt Zimmerman said he can’t find any 1990 or 1991 commission meeting minutes saying Weaver was the only way trucks should go in and out. Weaver, South and Logan were all built to truck standards, he said.
The city’s traffic safety committee twice discussed what route should be used and voted 3-2 to recommend to the city commission making South, Logan and Weaver truck routes.
Commissioner Kevin Nelson said he knows of no safety problems with trucks going down South or Logan. When Menu and Hills pet food companies were built, Nelson said they likely assumed there would be three ways they could get products delivered.
“We haven’t done anything since 1986 so they probably thought we weren’t going to do anything on truck routes,” he said.
Mayor Jim Kessler was curious whether the city could pick either South or Logan, rather than both. Zimmerman said that’s possible but by designating both, they could split the amount of traffic so one road does not take the brunt of the trucks.
Commissioner Jeff Longbine said for economic development purposes, the city should make it less of a hassle for trucks. Making drivers go three miles out of the way through downtown would not qualify.
Zimmerman said another problem with forcing trucks downtown is to make the sharp turn from Commercial onto Sixth, trucks have to cross other lanes.
“It isn’t just a matter of traffic congestion downtown, it’s a matter of they can’t make that turn right now,” he said.
The other truck route dilemma is on the west end of town concerning Graphic Arts Road.
Because of design flaws, motorists are not allowed to turn left from 12th or 15th Avenue onto Graphic Arts. Trucks coming from 12th and 15th avenues can turn right legally but there’s not space for them to do so. The trucks end up driving over the islands.
City staff recommends removing Graphic Arts and the far west portions of 12th and 15th avenues as truck routes and designating Graham Street from Sixth to 12th avenues and Hatcher Street from 12th to 15th avenues instead.
That doesn’t thrill some commissioners, but there is little the city can do about Graphic Arts at this time. Zimmerman said city officials are talking with the Kansas Department of Transportation to explore longterm solutions, including a traffic signal.
Although the city will not hold a public hearing about truck route changes, the commission will give interested public time to speak at its 1:30 p.m. Nov. 3 meeting before taking a vote.
blulitespecial (anonymous) says...
"Build it and they will come" From where? I'd comment,but I'm still laughing about these logistical nightmares of your own doing.Good luck with all those left turns and roundy-things!
October 20, 2010 at 12:52 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
oops (anonymous) says...
You know what would solve the turning problems on commercial? A great big round about. Yeah, maybe we can get KDOT to do the planning and pay for it since it is a state highway :P
October 20, 2010 at 12:59 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
I say legitimize the use of Logan and South Ave. both as truck routes.This argument they should be kept off South Avenue because it has residential homes on it is absurd. That could apply to virtually every street in town.
That same not in my backyard attitude is one of the reasons Emporia didn't get the prison facility that now helps Eldorado's economy.
October 20, 2010 at 2:06 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
spensanity (anonymous) says...
If Logan Avenue is going to be primarily used, make sure there are MORE signs stating the appropriate speed limit! Too many of these truckers are going 40 to 50 miles per hour down this street and with children crossing Logan Avenue to get to and from school this has become quite a safety concern for many citizens living in this area.
October 20, 2010 at 2:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Blue_Dog (anonymous) says...
Biscuit,
I'm betting it is safe to say "they aren't driving through your backyard" though. Also it isn't unreasonable to expect the city to live by their statements to the surrounding area residents.
October 20, 2010 at 2:44 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
I would ask of those who say designating South Ave and Logan Ave as truck routes is fine with them, exactly where do you live and would you be as happy and quick in approving of a truck route running in front of your place of residence.
In case you don' t know it or have never seen an almost 90 ft. long, vehicle try to negotiate a turn onto a fairly narrow 2 lane residential street, just set at the corner of Logan Ave or South Ave and watch these Semi drivers try and negotiate these turns, sometime . And it doesn' t make any difference whether the trucks are traveling north or south on Commercial, that turn to the east on both streets is a S.O.B. for the large vehicles, no matter how experienced a driver is at the wheel ! Even the turns from South Ave on to 99 highway or commercial are a S.O.B., no matter whether the truck is traveling East or West on South Ave.
And then there are those of us who live along either South Ave or Logan Ave that are already putting up with the noise and rumbling ground that these 40 ton vehicles make while already traveling up and down these residential streets ! And now you and the city are o.k. with increasing that heavy traffic.
And I disagree with our esteemed City manager, that South Ave and Logan Ave were built to truck standards. Even if they were built to truck standards of that era, the trucks of that era did not weigh near the amount the trucks of today weigh .
Try designating any street above 15th Ave as a truck route and see what happens ! Run the trucks on a truck route in front of Kesslers, Zimmermans, Aglers or Longbines houses/propertys and see what comes of that Idea .
I realize that most everyone thinks of the South, Southeast, Southwest parts of Emporia as insignificant, accounts for nothing, slums of Emporia ! But we are people and taxpayers also. Is it because the waste disposal plant is in the South of Emporia, is that why most people think of us who happen to live in the Southern parts of Emporia as nothing more than sewerage or trash ?
These two streets were never built to truck standards that are required today . I don' t know where Zimmerman gets his ideas or info, possibly a ouija board.
October 20, 2010 at 3:07 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
You are right....they are not in my back yard. In my back yard I have a constant stream of drunks, derelicts, and other unlicensed drivers running down my street in an attempt to avoid the increased police surveillance on sixth avenue. The intersection to the east of me averages about one wreck per week. All I am saying is we all have our crosses to bear.
October 20, 2010 at 4:02 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
My brother lives on Weaver and I have seen southbound traffic (much of it trucks) stacked up at the railroad tracks back up almost to 50 highway. It's not a good situation there either. Again, there is probably no easy solution that would please everybody and will get worse as Hill's gears up. But each one of those trucks is contributing in a small way to Emporia's economy.
October 20, 2010 at 4:13 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
lowereastside (anonymous) says...
I truly hope that they widen both Logan and South Avenue if they are going to make them truck routes. These streets are not wide enough for truck traffic.
October 20, 2010 at 4:58 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
justaflushaway (anonymous) says...
well zimmy will just have to build a overpass on Weaver street so the truckers wont have to wait on trains, I know just an idea, oh sorry I brought it up............... my bad
October 20, 2010 at 6:53 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Blue_Dog (anonymous) says...
Biscuit,
Would that be W. 5th avenue. Parents live next to it and it is hard to believe how much unsavory traffic goes down W. 5th. Do understand what you are saying about traffic. But city should honor it promise about streets around Ind. Park. That was why Weaver is concrete and wider than normal. Also nobody is stopping truck traffic. Just making it ass safe a possible for the area. And again just asking city to honor it promise made at the time of establishment of the park.
October 20, 2010 at 8:42 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
Blue_Dog
Bingo......Every dirt bag in town uses this street trying to avoid detection by the police on sixth.
I wouldn't begin to argue with you about whatever commitments the city might have made to you in the past. But the situation on Weaver is far from good. And it is absurd for anybody to think that one access for trucks in an out of an industrial park....an access that crosses the main line of the BNSF Railroad....is adequate. It could perhaps be argued that the situation is so bad that it could become a problem hindering further development of that park. And what Emporia does not need now is hindrance to further job development.
A bridge over the railroad tracks would be incredibly expensive if there is even enough room there to do such a thing. I'm glad I'm not the one making the decision
October 20, 2010 at 9:40 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mslater (Matt Slater) says...
And put bike lanes on Commercial.
:D
Matt
October 20, 2010 at 9:55 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Blue_Dog (anonymous) says...
Agreed about the only one access for trucks. I commented at previous meetings that I understood that there would always be heavy truck traffic on these streets but that we didn't need to encourage it. Especially with out of town trucks that are not familiar with the area.
Also I will comment to Chief Smith about the W. 5th situation.
October 20, 2010 at 10:11 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
Blue_Dog
Your dad wouldn't happen to share a name with a famous American writer would he. If so, I know who he is and I think he is great.....
October 20, 2010 at 10:24 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
reddog (K. B. Thomas Jr.) says...
When this dog food plant was presented to the public it was not disclosed that 150 trucks per day would be coming to the plant. I think the people have a class action law suit for devaluation of property. THESE NEIGHBORS WERE DECEIVED!!!
October 21, 2010 at 1:08 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
reddog (K. B. Thomas Jr.) says...
There was a study session concerning turning traffic north on Graphic Arts and I showed up late and ask for a copy of the tape the next day under the Kansas Open Records Act and was told that they for got to turn it on. The City Enginneer at that time told me that kdot WANTED TRAFFIC TO GO NORTH AND THAT'S what KDOT wanted, but after talking to KDOT, this was an untrue statement. Is this the right way to do business? I later found out that the city paid 100,000 in attorney fees to take the cornor and then made a low, low offer that was not even one tenth the value and a person from KDOT said there was money in the project to take care of this matter. SO WHEN THE CITY MANAGER SAYS HE CAN'T FIND THE MINUTES OF A MEETING SAYING THAT WEAVER WAS THE ONLY STREET TO BE USED FOR TRUCKS INTO THE PARK---I GUESS YOU CAN CALL ME A DOUBTING THOMAS AND AGAIN I SAY IS THIS THE RIGHT WAY TO DO BUSINESS?
October 21, 2010 at 1:39 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
reddog (K. B. Thomas Jr.) says...
The protection of property rights is one of the great tenets that has been abused in the southeast sector of Emporia. The only thing I can say for the working people of this area to the City Commission---WE ARE NOT YOUR SLAVES FOR THE COLLECTIVE GOOD AND THIS TIME WERE GOING TO HAVE TO GO TO COURT!!!
October 21, 2010 at 1:52 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jlhart22 (anonymous) says...
GO TO COURT: THE CITY IS TRYING TO FIND A WAY TO BOOST OUR ECONOMY!! Ok we can just outlaw trucks from the city!!! That's a good idea. No noisy trucks perfect, Oh wait a couple thousand people will lose there jobs...hmmm maybe no one is going to be 100% happy: oh wait WELCOME TO LIFE!! With that being said I do not always agree with the choices the county commissioners make (roundabouts...enough said); however, if we want our town to gain some more jobs we will have to make some sacrifices. We need to open up all possibilities in order to spread it out. Also even though it is not the most popular idea why not use the roads we already have to generate some more revenues and when the city is booming again we can afford to build a nice truck route underground since that is obviously the only solution that will please everyone.
October 21, 2010 at 7:36 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
Really!
We want jobs but we don't want trucks......we want our snow shoveled but we don't want taxes....
Now I understand what my mother meant when she talked about people that want their cake and eat it too.
Incidentally....How many school children actually live south of Logan Avenue that attend Logan Avenue School?
October 21, 2010 at 8:10 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Asemporiaturns (anonymous) says...
I agree Jlhart.. We all need to do our parts. In getting more companies coming in... Or Our town will end up a ghost town. Emporia needs jobs.. So anyway we can open things up for the traffic flow we need to do it... We need a lot more companies to come to Emporia. If this is a way to get more to come then so be it.
October 21, 2010 at 8:27 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
neighbor (anonymous) says...
Logan Ave, from Commercial East to just past Logan Ave school would have to be rebuilt to handle heavy truck traffic, the turn off Commercial wouldn't be easy for the largest trucks. South Ave from Commercial to East is okay for trucks, but from East St. to Weaver was a mess the last time I drove it. Weaver St from Hwy50 South is built for truck traffic. Sure the RR crossing by Sauders is there, can't say I've ever seen it backed up before, the trains during the day arent that frequent.
The neighborhood should have recognized that Industrial Park meant noise, trucks and trains when it was first being developed. Trying to maintain peace and quiet after it's built up is, well pathethetic IMO.
October 21, 2010 at 8:52 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
as to reddog's class action suit...Spoken like a true real estate man that thinks he might lose a buck. The only property devaluation he is worried about is his own.....
October 21, 2010 at 8:59 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
neighbor
Check Weaver street out about six or seven in the morning......Trains are pretty constant about that time. The same time trucks are showing up for the day and workers are heading to work. FYI
October 21, 2010 at 9:03 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
neighbor (anonymous) says...
I'm well versed on truck and traffic in SE Emporia at all hours of the night and day thank you.
October 21, 2010 at 3:24 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
Sorry...Excuse Me.....I guess I was just imagining cars and trucks backed up almost to old Highway 50 some mornings. But of course I'm not as well-versed as you are.
October 21, 2010 at 3:34 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
To be a little more accurate in my verse I'll just say backed up past the entrance to the Mobile Home Park where I was visiting my brother. Not every morning.....but with some regularity.
October 21, 2010 at 3:42 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Chevy_Guy (anonymous) says...
This is probably undo-able for many reasons, but how about a Road P exit off the highway that takes you south over to Logan Avenue? The roads are already there except from the on-off-ramps to Road P. This could keep many trucks out of the city all together. Here is a map of what I'm trying to explain.
http://imgur.com/NXal2.png
October 21, 2010 at 8:36 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Chevy_Guy (anonymous) says...
And if truck traffic coming in from the south is that heavy, have them turn east on road 130 over to Weaver. That would also keep lots of trucks completely away from downtown and schools.
http://imgur.com/g8FQ3.png
October 21, 2010 at 8:43 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
neighbor (anonymous) says...
Shame on me, I was putting commerce, jobs and the economy ahead of the driveway to a trailerpark. What was I thinking.
October 21, 2010 at 9:42 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
tbluma (anonymous) says...
There are 3 ways into this town from the north. Industrial Rd, 99, and Burlingame
Rd. From the south there is 99 From the east and west I35 or 6th St
Most trucks are going to Bunge, Irsick and Doll, Penny's, Tyson's or a car dealership etc,etc.
From the west it only makes sense to go south on Praire to South Ave. to get across town to the Pet food plants, Comoplast or NIM. There's an overpass on Praire for the RR and not much traffic or traffic lights.
From the east Weaver south is a no brainer.
From the north Burlingame Rd to 12th to Peyton ( adesignated trk rte) south to 6th for Bunge.
99 is really fun.
From the south Logan and South Ave are also no brainers if you're going east or west.
Chevyguy
Rd 130 to Weaver north?
I beleive that's M.
2 or 3 miles of gravel. Mud when it rains and floods before 99.
And oh you bet REDDOG
You're always bitching about the way the local gov. spends money and conducts business so let's make them spend some more money on your frivolous lawsuit just to make you look good or feel good.
October 21, 2010 at 10:15 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
neighbor
Take the time to read what others say sometimes. My concern has nothing to do with the entrance to a trailer park. My concern was that dumping all the truck traffic into the Industrial Park onto one road that had a bottleneck at a railroad crossing could stifle further development of that park thereby hindering the very
commerce, jobs, and economy you are so concerned about.
In fact my position was that commerce, jobs, and economy would be further enhanced by opening up one other truck route into the Industrial Park. It was from the beginning commerce. jobs, and economy that was my concern....not the entrance to some trailer park. The only reason I identified the trailer park at all was to give a reference point to how far I had seen traffic backed up. To better understanding in the future.
October 22, 2010 at 4:28 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
neighbor (anonymous) says...
biscuit,
Perhaps it would help if everyone just posted their opinions on the subject at hand instead of engaging each other in pointless debate over who's right or wrong. Where in my original post did I say there should only be one truck route? Practice what you preach. I was merely pointing out that the other options would involved $$$$ to revamp and make them usuable as such. Like 99.9% of Government discussions, when they even discuss an idea, it always involves spending money.
October 22, 2010 at 6:09 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
neighbor
Agreed!
And you are right. South Ave. would need rebuilt from about East St. to Weaver....where Logan would need rebuilt from Commercial to the Ind. Park right east of the school...and both would need work where they intersected with Commercial.
October 22, 2010 at 6:20 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
How would developing an Industrial park and all future industrial parks closer to or say North and West of the By Pass and Turnpike, and rail lines work out ! Then you would not have to worry about trucks having to use downtown and residential streets as routes to get to the " I parks " !
Wasn' t that the original thinking of those who started to develope the thinking of having any Industrial Parks located to the West and North West away from downtown and residential areas and closer to the main transportation corridors that run through and around Emporia ?
October 22, 2010 at 9:46 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
And as far as money needed to do so, lets not forget that there is stimulus money to be had to " stimulate the economy " !
Oh! That is right, I forgot, the West and North West country is reserved for exclusive residential developement, that will surely bring jobs and a better economy to Emporia !
We definately wouldn' t want to disturb the good folks of the exclusive community with such things as jobs developement or noisy truck traffic .
That is a right, reserved exclusively for the " poor white trash " sectiion of Emporia !
October 22, 2010 at 9:55 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
oops (anonymous) says...
Road M wouldn't be a good choice unless
1. Pave it
2. Replace the bridge
3. Put in a causeway to keep it from flooding.
Word on the street was that they wanted to put the intermodial container that Gardner got here in Emporia near the dump, but the city wasn't willing to move the dump or invest in the needed infrastructure. They liked the location for rail and highway access. Dont know if there is any truth to that though.
October 22, 2010 at 3:36 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
I sure hope that isn't true about the Gardner inter-modal. That is a massive project costing over one billion dollars.
If this town actually had a real shot at that and blew it then we deserve to wither and die.
October 22, 2010 at 3:55 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
" Exclusivity " is the watch word for certain areas of Euphoria/Emporia , instead of " Inclusivity " !
Any Industry or business venture, must meet certain " exclusive " requirements and be willing to locate where the " exclusive leaders of Emporia " dictate they locate .
What puzzles me is the specific complaint that Emporia needs jobs and yet businesses and Industries must meet certain " exclusive " requirements of the leaders of Emporia ! Case in point, " Fanestil " !
You will never see, any Industry or business allowed to the West or Southwest, North or Northwest, as that is " Prime, Exclusive " residential real estate .
If you are serious about attracting any kind of jobs, whether they be Industrial, business, technical, 21st century jobs, any jobs to Emporia or keeping jobs in Emporia then you had better be more receptive and compromising to those who would wish to locate and bring jobs to Emporia, as to where they would like to locate or relocate, if already in Emporia !
The people who are the supposed or percieved leaders of Emporia need to make up their minds which is more important to Emporia, for the survival of Emporia .... Jobs, attracting jobs, anyway possible or " Exclusivity " !
Another thing that puzzles me about the percieved leaders of Emporia is the fact that they always point at other Cities, such as, Salina, Hutchinson, Junction City, Manhattan, etc. and say , look at the Industry, businesses and jobs that those Cities have attracted ! Why can' t we do that ?
Well, have our percieved City leaders, ever wondered tha, possibly, those Citys' were more openly compromising with the Companys that were willing to locate there and less " Exclusively " demanding !
Emporia has a lot of open land area, which could be very attractive to Companies looking to relocate, but a big chunk of this land is what may be deemed off limits because of its " Exclusivity " !
October 22, 2010 at 6:13 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
Just think if Emporia had been considered for the " Intermodal " and it could have been located to the west of the City trash transfer station, on both sides of the main BNSF main line track, just think how many possible warehouses, various company distribution centers, as well as trucking companys that would, more than likely sprung up and the number of jobs created !
October 22, 2010 at 6:19 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Boom (anonymous) says...
He should go down logan. The only thing is the kids. When the school zone lights are flashing he should just have to go 10.
October 22, 2010 at 7:21 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
booker5m (anonymous) says...
What happen it get to nasty on the Baby in the dumpster board? Took all the comments down
October 22, 2010 at 8:53 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
b3bill (anonymous) says...
I'm sure the RDA knows all the details about the inter-modal's inquiry about Emporia. But that's confidential, can't discuss that!!
If the inter-modal was being located here, truck routes would have already been established throughout town. Emporia doesn't have much of that problem, given the limited industry here.
October 22, 2010 at 9:59 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mellen (anonymous) says...
The director of Emporia's RDA didn't get anything! Nothing!!! No cash, No Personal benefits...Nothing!!! There was no way that our RDA leader would even think about allowing rural development of this magnitude without a personal kickback. His friends didn't get anything out of it either.
October 23, 2010 at 12:16 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
I'm sure it did booker5m. I could have told you that would happen when I first saw the headline. Some love to make themselves feel good by attacking those they know nothing about.
Back to the topic at hand though. I had heard about the possibility of a massive intermodal project's interest in Emporia a few times. But next I knew it was being built in Gardner. I did read a story just a few days ago about some residents in that area being very unhappy about truck traffic...so some people don't care if it is the Golden Goose they are trying to shoot.
October 23, 2010 at 4:17 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Steve_Corbin (anonymous) says...
http://www.wibw.com/localnews/headlin...
October 23, 2010 at 5:40 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Steve_Corbin (anonymous) says...
I wonder how much those workers, (who averaged 27.00 per hour), will make on unemployment? Sounds like the union screwed this one up.
October 23, 2010 at 5:44 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
Well Steve it's one more union busted while poor Hawker Beechcraft leaves American workers on unemployment so it can pay Mexican workers pennies on the dollar to do the same job. Don't look to me for sympathy for Hawker Beechcraft. If Hawker Beechcraft management likes Mexico so much maybe they should all move to Juarez and see how they like living there amongst the drug cartels. The only jobs they never seem to want to move off-shore are theirs.
American business has been trying to bust unions ever since unions were first formed. The only difference now is NAFTA and free trade has made it so much easier to do. Yea....move em all off-shore until we teach the American worker to be happy with two dollars and hour jobs.
October 23, 2010 at 6:11 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
Steve
My rant was not aimed at you. But my firm believe is that the reason the American worker as a whole did so well during the last half of the 20th Century was due to the effort of the unions. And that union benefit trickled down to non union employees as well. Non-union workers were paid better and had better benefits precisely because of the threat of unions rather than despite them. American business knows that as well.
But all these free trade agreements changed all that and made it so easy to move jobs off-shore. The best union busting tool the business community has had since the Pinkerton Detective Agency back at the turn of the last century used to do it with shotguns and billy clubs.
October 23, 2010 at 8 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Steve_Corbin (anonymous) says...
Understood.
From what I've read on this, the union recommended the agreement with the company, but the workers voted it down. And you are right, the displaced unemployed workers will not likely find as good as paying job, (ever), and some lucky Mexican worker will be making 7 or 8 dollars and hour and loving it.
October 23, 2010 at 9:12 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Steve_Corbin (anonymous) says...
IF YOU GUYS WANT NASTY COMMENTS, ON THE BABY STORY try the cap journal web site. whoo eeee, nasty
http://cjonline.com/news/local/2010-1...
October 23, 2010 at 9:36 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Steve_Corbin (anonymous) says...
OR
http://www.kansas.com/2010/10/22/1553...
October 23, 2010 at 9:42 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
Actually, I am very glad the Gazette saw fit to pull all of this type comment almost immediately. It serves no real purpose other than to allow a few people to feel superior by attacking people and situations they know nothing about.
We all would do well to wait until we have more information about this before jumping to rash conclusions.
October 23, 2010 at 9:52 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
emporian (anonymous) says...
I have a buddy who is non union and works at Hawker Beechcraft. He got his layoff notice. He said the vote was misleading because they allowed all the people who had already been handed their layoff papers to vote. Guess what they voted.
October 23, 2010 at 2:19 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
Wondering if those people that had already been served with layoff notices were predominantly union or non-union. I have a pretty good guess. Hawker Beechcraft had been threatening to move operations to the non-union deep south prior to this election then it lays off a group of union workers right prior to the vote. I would also be curious about the decision to allow those laid off workers to vote.....Who made that decision and why? Is that arrangement standard operating procedure?
This whole thing has been a blatant attempt to bust the union from the start and instead of being jeered, the company is being cheered by many of the same employees that will be negatively affected by their success. Sounds a lot like the far rights's impassioned desire to help the wealthy capitalist maintain policies that work against the self interest of most of the people on the far right.
Keep them poor and obedient by promising to make it worse on them, if they are not. It's worked for despots through out history.
October 23, 2010 at 2:43 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
tbluma (anonymous) says...
Bisquit/Steve
A lot of people are always bitching about the greed of the nasty old giant corporations.
Food for thought
What about the greed of the unions and their workers. For years they kept demanding and getting more money, more benefits, more vacation etc.
Is it any wonder that a company would sooner or later have to yell calf rope?
Is the guy standing in a line doing the same thing all day long really worth $27/ hr. or more. Then add in all the vacation, free health care and retirement?
Just saying that maybe the greed of the corporation was a trickledown from the greed of the workers.
October 24, 2010 at 9:31 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
tbluma
I agree there was plenty of greed to go around and the unions often asked for and got more than could rationally be justified.
But I always look at what came first. Greedy corporations beget greedy unions
Unions were formed in response to the greed of the corporations....and in many cases there was a legitimate need for something to protect the worker from the sweatshop conditions of the nineteenth century.
Did the unions go too far....You bet they did! But in so doing, they by the very threat of their presence brought a livable wage and benefits to non-union workers that arguably might never have happened otherwise. I fear that if we allow the union threat to be totally removed from the table there will be nothing to hold the greed of the corporation in check.....which is the very reason the unions came to be in the first place.
October 24, 2010 at 10:34 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
Neither the unions nor the corporations had any trouble swallowing their joint greed as long as the booming post WW2 economy allowed both to live high off the non-union workers and small businesses sweat and labor.
It wasn't until that cash cow was tapped out that either one of them started to think about yelling calf rope.
October 24, 2010 at 12:08 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
REWBA (anonymous) says...
It isn't an employees Union who is asking for free access to residential streets and school zones for increased productivity and profit. Force trucks to use the existing truck routes and if they stray from these routes, stop the driver and issue a citation for violating the law and assess a stiff fine. Eventually the truckers will learn how to stay on Emporia's approved truck routes or they will pay to build a new one at no cost to the taxpayers. If there is one thing that disgusts me more than corporate greed it's got to be an ignorant public that is always willing to drop their pants and bend over anytime a greedy corporation asks taxpayers to solve their problems.
October 24, 2010 at 1:21 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
tbluma (anonymous) says...
REWBA
The next tme need to go down Logan or South Ave I won't be able too keep the picture of you bent over out of my mind.
Thanks for the laugh when it comes. Hopefully I'll be in a truck which will make it doube the laugh.
October 24, 2010 at 9:19 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
tbluma
I have no idea what yelling calf rope means. But you had used it and I liked the way it sounded so I did too.
October 25, 2010 at 3:18 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
biscuit,
I believe that when someone says or yells " calf rope " it means, basically, the same as " give in " or " give up " or " say uncle " !
I am not entirely sure !
October 25, 2010 at 7:27 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
methusla
That's kinda what I thought but I wasn't sure....Like I said, I just liked the way it sounded.
I also loved your line about the "very thankful spirit of methusla himself" on another thread. I was rolling about the place laughing. Very funny.....:-)
October 25, 2010 at 8:22 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
create (anonymous) says...
"calf rope." What a fabulous term used by children to indicate a truce. I'd only heard it once before in a piece of literature called "Go Down Moses" by William Faulkner.
But lo and behold, I heard someone use it in real life today. So neat! I love language. Can you tell?
http://www.pbs.org/speak/words/trackt...
October 25, 2010 at noon ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
I know create.....I think it is just about the coolest phrase. Like my momma used to tell me...You learn something new every day of your life. Once you think you have nothing left to learn, you just as well lay down and die because you are already dead.
October 25, 2010 at 1:10 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
biscuit,
I agree, my mother and father used to always tell me, " you never get too old to " Learn " ! And Mr. Bloxom, my high school math teacher used to say, " Learning is a never ending, ongoing process for those who wish to Learn in the first place. "
October 25, 2010 at 1:17 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
etown_mama (anonymous) says...
I live on Weaver and it would be nice for them to use another route also. If not than put signs up for the truckers to slow down because kids do live on this street!
October 25, 2010 at 1:30 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
REWBA (anonymous) says...
I'm just glad to live on a street that isn't being considered for an official truck route. Something like that would lower property values and make it really hard to sell a house so you could move away from the truck route.
The last time I had my home appraised, a train's horn could be heard in the distance and the appraiser docked my property for noise. The fat cats in their high rise offices back east could care less about my property value. They want to make money with their noisy train. The same is true with the corporations doing business over on the east side of town. They want taxpayer built industrial complexes, a huge tax break, cheap labor and an uninformed public who is easily distracted by words like "calf rope" or "bend over". lol
October 25, 2010 at 1:33 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
Well, I am just waiting to see what a possible increase in " heavy truck " traffic is going to do to some of the foundations of the older homes in the area that are within 50 to 100 ft of the ground vibrating " heavy truck " traffic like our 100 + year old house and foundation !
And believe me, you can feel the " heavy truck " traffic that uses both South Avenue, and other streets.
As I said before some of the trucks will weigh upwards of 80,000 pounds or possibly more .
October 25, 2010 at 1:52 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
To be perfectly honest there are probably few people that have any concern for another individuals property value except the person that owns the property.....and a few of his immediate neighbors.
Other more bothersome things like train whistles and truck routes are part of a larger issue called the economy. And jobs and people being able to earn a living and pay taxes so the rest of us who are always crying all the time about having to pay all the taxes might get a little help are an important part of that economy.
In fact some people might argue that they are just as important as some body's individual property value....how's that for a silly idea.
October 25, 2010 at 2:47 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
I'm not trying to make light of any body's concern about their property value. It is a major investment to them and extremely important to them.
But in the larger scheme of things they pale in significance to new jobs for people in a town that desperately needs jobs. If the guys in those glass towers in New York cancelled every train because it's whistled lowered some body's property value....or quit running trucks anywhere they weren't wanted to sooth somebody's sensitivities.....we wouldn't have property values or glass towers either very long. We would all be trying to learn to live as hunter-gathers again
October 25, 2010 at 3:33 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
REWBA (anonymous) says...
I knew there was a train track located about a mile from my property when I bought it. I dug a decorative pond with a waterfall to abate undesired noise.
Norfolk Steel, Menu and Hills Pet knew what access roads were available when they "invested" in that industrial complex.
Did the individual citizen who signed a 30 year mortgage know that the street in front of his home would turn into a truck route? Was his investment in a residential neighborhood any less valuable to the town?
Menu gets to sell out before their tax breaks end and there is no guarantee Hills won't do the same. In the meantime, the poor sucker who bought a house across from a grade school in a residential area will still be stuck paying taxes on the school, the truck route and the industrial complex and the courthouse for the next 30 years. Funny story don't you think?
October 25, 2010 at 4:10 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
tbluma
According to data released earlier this month by the Social Security Administration....One in every 34 Americans that had an income in 2008 did not make one red cent in 2009.
On the other end of the food chain however the very richest Americans saw their average incomes of 91-million dollars a piece in 2008 increase to an average of 519-million dollars in 2009. That is approximately ten-million dollars a week.
These 74 people made as much money in 2009 as 19-million of the lowest paid Americans did during the same period. Now people can say those 74 people got more education and worked harder than the poor ones did until the cows come home....but they did not work as hard 19-million of their fellow Americans.
It would be real hard to convince me these people need more breaks and concessions. And if trickle down works why aren't we seeing some right now with this five fold increase in their earnings in one year.
October 25, 2010 at 4:32 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
REWBA
Did the people that signed a 30 year mortgage along the gulf coast know a hurricane was going to wash out the levee making his property worth zip? Does anybody that signs any contract for thirty years know that changing circumstances aren't going to occur that changes the whole scenario? You pay your money and take your chances. I have never seen a mortgage contract that guaranteed that nothing would ever occur to negatively affect the value of the property. In fact, one of the root causes of the mortgage melt-down was based on the erroneous assumption that property values would always go up.....Wrong!
October 25, 2010 at 4:43 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
The poor sucker might perhaps avoid paying property taxes on a school, a truck route, an industrial complex, and a courthouse. Of course then he might be living in a dead town without government, schools, or industry, in which case he would have little or no property value at all. Just whom are we assuming are going to be willing to buy all this high valued property in a town with no jobs?
October 25, 2010 at 4:51 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
tbluma (anonymous) says...
Bisquit
Don't quite understand why your 4:32 PM post was directed at me but here's my answer.
Wish I was one of the 74.
I would also like to know if the $519 M. was before or after taxes, what their original investment was to get there, how many people they employed or other businesses they used which in turn made money etc. etc. Are they making money because they're lucky in their stock portfolio or are they actively a producing member of society.
None of the above questions really matter though. It's theirs,more power to them.
And as far as statistics from the SS adm. goes. No better than they can administer my retirement, I'd want a second opinion on their figures.
There are always going to be haves and have nots. And there is never going to be the perfect tax system, so there are always going to be bitchers and whiners. I just chose to bitch about the complainers more than I do the rich they are complaining about.
October 25, 2010 at 6:34 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
tbluma (anonymous) says...
P.S.
Yes calf rope means
I give up
uncle
etc
October 25, 2010 at 6:37 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
tbluma
I addressed the post to you precisely because we have discussed this before. I know you prefer to bitch about the complainers while I prefer to complain about the rich, so when I read the data you were the first one I thought of. There was nothing sinister or devious meant by it....sorry if it read that way.
As to your questions they were not answered in the short piece I saw....in fact I included just about all of the information that was included in the blurb.
This has been an on-going conversation with us for awhile and that was my only reason.......:-)
October 25, 2010 at 6:52 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
tbluma (anonymous) says...
OK
October 25, 2010 at 7:37 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
Hows this for a designated truck route, Mechanic street, which has one of the shortest underpasses in Emporia, brilliant and it is so designated with signs !
Have a need to see what heavy truck traffic does to City streets ?
Take a drive down west 6th avenue some time, past the resurfaced section .
October 25, 2010 at 8:56 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
REWBA (anonymous) says...
"Did the people that signed a 30 year mortgage along the gulf coast know a hurricane was going to wash out the levee making his property worth zip?" O.K. I'll bite :-)
It really depends on a number of factors. The ones with homes lined along the Alabama and Mississippi coastline knew or should have known that they were building million dollar homes in hurricane lane. Their property values are still right up there outside my reach. Some of the people in New Orleans were educated enough to know that they were living below sea level and only had some earthen levees and water pumps keeping them dry but I suspect a majority of them are so stupid that they believe it could never happen again. With that said, have you checked out home prices in New Orleans?
October 25, 2010 at 9:39 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
But by reserving your comments to the weakest part of my argument tells me you understand that no 30-year mortgage comes with a guarantee and s@#t happens. So are we supposed to let economic development suffer to protect some mortgage holder's presumption that only good things would happen to his property value? A guarantee he never really had in the first place.
October 25, 2010 at 10:23 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
Otherwise that was a good sarcastic answer to an analogy I knew I shouldn't have used. Score one for you.
October 25, 2010 at 10:27 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
You know REWBA I sometimes believe your original user name was the one that you felt fit you the best.
October 25, 2010 at 10:34 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
Well, there is nothing mortal man can do about the unpredictability of " Mother Nature " or " God " ! However, when mortal mans ego and greed supercede his ability to " Plan, Plan, Plan " and " Common Sense " then mortal man must live with the consequences of his lack of " Planning " and " Common Sense " and all other mortal men and women must live with the " Planning " and " Common Sense " or lack there-of, of those designated as their leaders by mortal " men and women " !
That is why there are " Planning and Developement Commissions that are supposed to " Think, Study, Plan and use Common Sense " for the good of all . However, Greed, Ego, Politics and " Croneism " interferes with the Thinking, Planning and Common sense !
JMO
October 26, 2010 at 8:48 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
Oh I agree with that methusla. I am in no way trying to excuse the thinking that went into planning or selling this Industrial Park with only one truck route on a road with a railroad bottleneck and that funneled much of the truck traffic through downtown Emporia.
The terrible planning and lack of common sense were inexcusable. My guess is they came about precisely to avoid the opposition they now face with the hope they could more quietly slip it through later as they are now trying to do. It is shameful.
But the fact that it was probably done that way for all the wrong reasons doesn't change the reality that there is a situation there that threatens the possibility of future expansion of that park. My belief is to punish those responsible for the bad initial plan by refusing to allow a more workable plan to be made available now will in the long run hurt Emporia's economy more than it will really punish the miscreants. JMO
October 26, 2010 at 9:08 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
REWBA (anonymous) says...
Wasn't RDA supposed to help us attract more jobs? So why have we lost more than we gained? The only good paying job we got with RDA is that RDA director position. The rest hire through temp services, pay low wages, no benefits and provide no longevity.
On the bright side, liquor stores and payday loans seem to be thriving.
October 26, 2010 at 10:12 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
snow (anonymous) says...
Using the Topeka development handbook?
Step 1 - Build stuff.
Step 2 - Start thinking about streets.
Step 3 - Wring hands.
Step 4 - Slap forehead.
Step 5 - Retrofit streets, cutting off access to homes and businesses.
October 27, 2010 at 7:17 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
REWBA
I don't think companies that hire through temp. agencies, pay low wages, and offer no benefits or longevity are limited unfortunately to dear ol Euphoria. Years of moving jobs off-shore....union busting.....and conservative brain-washing have conditioned the American worker to expect no more. In fact most workers now are damned happy to have any job that allows them to eat while their corporate bosses wallow in decadent excess.
October 27, 2010 at 8:03 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
create (anonymous) says...
You're right about the payday loan places and liquor stores, REWBA. In fact, I'm told by my daughter who scouts retail places east of the Mississippi for her company, that the number of payday loan places in a town heavily affects its negative image when it comes time to making a decision about establishing a retail outlet. The more payday loan places there are, the more it is indicated that the general populace cannot handle finances responsibly and will therefore not be able to afford to shop or dine out.
October 27, 2010 at 8:14 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )