Big, big government
Phil Dillon, Emporia
Monday, January 11, 2010
There was a recent op-ed and a subsequent news release in recent editions of the Gazette that caught my eye. On Dec. 11, Judy Decker closed hers by saying, “there is no political solution to the disposition of the human heart, but there are plenty who would tell you they have it. All they need is your vote and a little more cash.” On Dec. 15, Jim Barnett announced he was introducing “legislation to freeze the rate at which legislators are reimbursed.”
Although I agree with Ms. Decker’s premise that the disposition of the human heart can’t be legislated, I also realize that, while politicians can’t solve this problem, it doesn’t prevent them from trying.
The press release will probably garner votes. But, will the legislation make a difference? I have serious misgivings that it will, or that there’s much that can be done to curb the insatiable appetite of government.
USA Today recently reported that the number of civil servants on the federal payroll making $100,000 or more per year increased from 14 percent to 19 percent during the first 18 months of the current recession. For some federal bureaucracies, the recession has been a godsend. In December 2007 there were 1,868 civilian employees of the defense department earning more than $150,000 per year. By June, 2009 there were 10,100, an eye-popping 550 percent increase. The story over at the transportation department is much the same. Even the denizens of the boiler rooms would blush if they could produce numbers like that.
The net result of this explosion is an average salary for federal employees (excluding uniformed military, postal, White House, Congressional or intelligence agency personnel) of $71,206 per year. This compares to the private sector average of $40,331. Is a private sector employee worth only 56 percent of a federal worker? I’ll let anyone who has been spindled, folded and mutilated at the hands of a government bureaucrat be the judge.
So, while our legislators from both sides of the aisle were grinding out bailouts and the Fed was busy printing money, the payrolls of federal bureaucrats cost the American taxpayers $55 billion more than the same payrolls would have cost in the private sector.
As Illinois Sen. Everett Dirksen once observed, “It’s a billion here and a billion there and pretty soon you’re talking about real money.”
Do we fare any better at the state and local levels? I suppose, but I suspect it’s really just a matter of scale. Recently released figures show that here in conservative Lyon County we have plenty of bureaucrats, each one absolutely essential to the well-being of the community, making far in excess of union scale down at USD 253. We’ve got assistant principals, admins to the principals and assistants on top of assistants. We’re going to be footing the bill for Astroturf to the tune of a million bucks or more. But then, it’s all for the good of our kids, isn’t it?
If we give this a bit of time and some upward tweaking of the mill levy, who knows what might happen. Why, we might be able to fill cubicles or sumptuous offices with good, decent, God-fearing folks in charge of often neglected departments beginning with the letters Q, X or Y or some yet to be invented department beginning with the letter Z.
Since the turn of the 20th century the government’s share of GDP has grown by leaps and bounds. When the federal government takes over health care, high dollar government apparatchiks will control more than 50 percent America ’s GDP. Does anyone seriously believe that such an apparatus can be trimmed down or dismantled?
It’s a vicious circle spinning faster than the earth on its axis. Politicians crave votes. They get them by making promises to people who are demanding government action. Once they’re elected, they create bureaucracies to make good on the promises made.
Under the guise of “serving the people,” the bureaucracies extend their tentacles. Spending spirals out of control. The people get up in arms. The politicians make feeble attempts at dismantling bureaucracies. The bureaucrats remind the people that their departments are absolutely essential to the well-being of every man, woman and child in the country.
The beneficiaries of the bureaucracies (We, the People) get up in arms again, demanding that our legislators gore someone else’s ox. The politicians relent; the bureaucracies retain their iron grip. The bureaucracies then expand to “meet more needs.” Costs skyrocket. The people get up in arms once more. It’s “yada, yada, yada” from there.
What do you suppose would happen if a serious attempt were made at streamlining Social Security for America ’s seniors or trimming educational benefits for the young? How about the military-industrial complex? What do you think would happen if we took USD 253’s Astroturf away from them? I suspect the response might be bricks and Molotov cocktails.
Is this statism or socialism? I don’t know what it is, but I do know it’s big, and it isn’t going to go away any time soon. About the only way out I can see is for it to collapse under its own weight.
sandman (anonymous) says...
Super write-up!!!! Yes! Think BEFORE you vote this fall!
January 11, 2010 at 4:55 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
Yes, Phil, I agree.... however as I see the government of the U.S.A .... it is not only a government of bureaucracies, but a " plutocracy " , which is the actual power behind all of the policy/law making and bureaucratic B.S. ! And it has been this way for a long time now !
January 11, 2010 at 5:25 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
create (anonymous) says...
Something else to think about with regard to big government. I heard on radio today that if all doctors were to stop getting paid tomorrow, that it would amount to only two percent savings. If that is true, then now we know where all the health care dollars go -- hospitals, labwork, drugs...on and on and on.
January 11, 2010 at 5:44 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
emporian (anonymous) says...
Cant forget the lawsuits, malpractice insurance, etc.
January 11, 2010 at 5:58 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
MadMack (anonymous) says...
Government grows because politicians are rewarded by "the people" for responding to issues. Make enough noise with enough other voters doing the same, and a governmental entity will be created just to respond and make you feel better. Chances are it will not go away once it gets budgeted and hires employees, and not just any employees, but the best they can find and afford. At least in their collective opinion. Kind of like tax laws. Just get bigger and more complex.
Imagine if the DoD opened a research and development lab in Chase County. Then they hire engineers and scientist, but also janitors and facility maintenance, like IBP or Menu has. US Citizens only due to national security requirements. How many local folks would meet the qualifications for the highest paying jobs? Could ESU supply the education? How many would protest the loss of the natural pastures and the new roads and infrastructure being built? Crane, Indiana has one and does quite well, but some complain about what used to be, before "they" came. ESU could partner with such a facility and PAY students to attend Grad school.
Big Government at work? Maybe. Bad? Depends what the Lab is working on and accomplishing.
January 11, 2010 at 7:26 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
"Democrats tend to want to spend more than we can afford, Republicans tend to want to cut taxes more than we can afford, and our kids pick up the bill" -.Sen. Evan Bayh, Democrat from Indiana.
January 12, 2010 at 9:32 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
"White House changes job-count Rule:"
http://apnews1.iwon.com//article/2010...
"The White House has abandoned its controversial method of counting jobs under President Barack Obama's economic stimulus, making it impossible to track the number of jobs saved or created with the $787 billion in recovery money.
Despite mounting a vigorous defense of its earlier count of more than 640,000 jobs credited to the stimulus, even after numerous errors were identified, the Obama administration now is making it easier to give the stimulus credit for hiring. It's no longer about counting a job as saved or created; now it's a matter of counting jobs funded by the stimulus.
That means that any stimulus money used to cover payroll will be included in the jobs credited to the program, including pay raises for existing employees and pay for people who never were in jeopardy of losing their positions........
..........Recipients of recovery money no longer have to show that a job would have been lost without the stimulus help, and they no longer are required to keep an ongoing tally of jobs saved or created. The new rules allow stimulus recipients to limit the job tally to quarterly reports, making it impossible to avoid double-counting a job that was created in one quarter and continued into the next.
January 12, 2010 at 3:47 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
reddog (K. B. Thomas Jr.) says...
A very good example of big government is the Youtube vedio Detroit in RUINS [Crowder goes Ghetto]. My question is, could Detroit be the future USA? Another excellent vedio on big government is "End Game" Eugenics and Depopulation Exerpts. This is a vedio you will never forget and it might have some implications for the senior crowd on this new Health Care Bill. This next election is ripe for a 3rd Party Canidate. On the local front I hope Phil Dillon puts is hat in the ring as we need good conservative people!
January 12, 2010 at 6:34 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
reddog (K. B. Thomas Jr.) says...
And we need people who know how to spell. I guess that leaves me out.
January 12, 2010 at 6:38 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
MrCmonkeeDo (anonymous) says...
Excellent post MadMack.
MrCmonkeeDo is fascinated by this Phil Dillon cat. He writes like a salesman. See the trick is (any good salesman could tell ya this) ya gotta get the customers head moving in the yes direction--you know up and down like. Now once ya get the customers head moving that way, say whatever it takes to keep it moving that way. What you say to keep it moving like that is inconsequential; what's important is that it never stop moving up and down.
Remember Newton's First Law of Motion:
Corpus omne perseverare in statu suo quiescendi vel movendi uniformiter in directum, nisi quatenus a viribus impressis cogitur statum illum mutare.
Which is to say:
An object at rest tends to stay at rest, and an object in uniform motion tends to stay in uniform motion unless acted upon by a net external force.
In other words, if you're nodding your noggin YES it's much harder to start wagging it NO than it would be from a position of rest. The last thing a salesman wants is a potential customer wagging their noggin NO; because it's dang near impossible to get them to start nodding YES.
Anyway that's kind of how Mr. Dillon writes. Now that ain't a bad thing and MrC isn't sayin' Phil is up to no-good. It's just something MrC's noticed is all. Hardly even worth bringing it up; except that, Mr Dillon just ain't that good of a salesman.
He never quite closes the deal with MrCmonkeeDo. Even though he's got the Cster's head movin' in the right direction almost from the get-go he invariably pulls some nuttiness from his hat that make us go, "Wait!...what? What?"
Apparatchiks and Bureaucrats and Socialism! Oh My!
January 12, 2010 at 9:05 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Steve_Corbin (anonymous) says...
MrCmonkeeDo
The 1st 3 words of your post stated the obvious.
The remainder of your post makes me wonder if you are using that medicinal pot?
January 12, 2010 at 9:33 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
MrCmonkeeDo (anonymous) says...
Well, ya pops your knuckles, ya takes your chances.
January 12, 2010 at 10:31 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
MrCmonkeeDo (anonymous) says...
See if this helps:
In other words, if you're nodding your noggin YES it's much harder to start wagging it NO than it would be from a position of rest. The last thing a salesman wants is a potential customer wagging their noggin NO; because then it's dang near impossible to get them to start nodding YES again. If you can keep them nodding YES you'll probably make the sale; but you couldn't sell a buck for a quarter to a peep waggin' NO.
January 12, 2010 at 11:10 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
reddog (K. B. Thomas Jr.) says...
Big Government is a part of international Government. Youtube Carroll Quigley: Our Tragedy and their Hope. This is a real eye opener to the common man out here working his guts out.
January 13, 2010 at 12:13 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
reddog (K. B. Thomas Jr.) says...
Youtube: Second Look at the Federal Reserve by Edward Griffin 1 of 7. It's my opinion, that the Fed which is a private corporation of central bankers in the USA and other nations actually call the shots on big government. This video points out the mirrows and smoke machine, the pulleys, cogs, and wheels according to G. Edward Griffin, Federal Reserve Expert. Also go to Ownership of the Federal Reserve and Rockefeller Foundation Charter and Gary Allen The Rockefeller File.
January 13, 2010 at 12:41 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
reddog (K. B. Thomas Jr.) says...
Youtube Ron Paul and Lew Rockwell Chat. This is a short video that points out the defects of big government.
January 13, 2010 at 12:59 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
reddog (K. B. Thomas Jr.) says...
We as a nation have a lot of problems but I sell America first everyday especially the Midwest and especially Emporia. The main objective I have is to expose things to people in an exchange of ideas to be a coach for a winning solution to a very difficult time in the history of our nation. The American and Emporian dream is not over and like Broadway Joe said just before the Super Bowl-I GUARANTEE IT!
January 13, 2010 at 1:15 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mslater (Matt Slater) says...
"If that is true, then now we know where all the health care dollars go -- hospitals, labwork, drugs...on and on and on."
Create- You forgot to mention the $1.4 million dollars a DAY the insurance industry is spending lobbying Congress.
Also, check this out. Great speech!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtjfMj...
Matt
January 13, 2010 at 4 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
What is easy to forget as we all rally to the cause of less government...less bureaucracy.....is that all that government and bureaucracy is in reality people and jobs. Are their too many people so employed? Probably so. Once established, do the bureaucracies invariable expand and grow? Certainly.
Are they created by politicians from both sides of the aisle just trying to save their own jobs by getting re-elected? Without a doubt.
But they are still people and jobs at heart. Whether wisely or foolish, we bailed out insurance giants, banks, and automakers, (one automaker, Chrysler, for the second time) arguably to save people and jobs. The crux of the argument was that all of the above had become too big to fail. Well folks, the government is bigger than all of them.
January 13, 2010 at 6:01 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
Now. I realize the immediate gut response, to what I just said will probably be....No body is suggesting we let the government fail.....just control it's size and cost. Easy words to say and agree with. I agree with them. But then we say alright...where do we start. Some programs will be easy targets and we can knock off a few billion dollars....chicken feed.
Now whats next. Do we knock off the program where our niece or our son works? How about the one that helps care for grandma and allows her to live anywhere except here with us.....but without using up all of her money we hope to inherit?
What about that one that provides educational opportunities for our handicapped child?......or the one that writes that fat farm crop subsidy check we have come to rely on? What about the one that maintains the roads and bridges so one hopefully doesn't collapse on us like that one up in Minneapolis awhile back?......or the pure science grant that makes the breakthrough needed for the next miracle weapon to protect us from terrorist?
I could go on all day like this. But the point is all of us would then start picking and choosing which programs we thought needed to go next.....almost certainly the ones that didn't benefit us....and few of us would agree on any more than three or four.
So now the politicians are right back where they started not knowing which jobs to cut so they can save their own>
January 13, 2010 at 6:22 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
If you want proof of what I just said click on the More Study thread now near the top of the page...then read through the reams of comments on other threads about the North Lyon County School District's need to cut funds.
Everybody has wonderful ideas on where to make the needed cuts.......any place that doesn't affect me and mine. I rest my case.
January 13, 2010 at 6:32 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Steve_Corbin (anonymous) says...
Matt,
Ole Newt is a great speaker, much like our new president.
Newt's call to action in your linked speech won't help much. Unlike George Washington's troops back in the day, the American of today is complacent and dependent on the very government those troops fought and died for. As biscuit stated above;
"Everybody has wonderful ideas on where to make the needed cuts.......any place that doesn't affect me and mine. I rest my case."
We have grown to a point where we expect the government to be everything to everyone, and in the process we are destroying the Great country that America used to be.
Biscuit, Maybe term limits would get rid of those politicians worried about their jobs?
And now I understand what MrCmonkeeDo was talking about.
BOBBLE-HEADS!
January 13, 2010 at 7:47 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
create (anonymous) says...
Matt,
Thank you for that link to Newt Gingrich's speech. I offer you and others this from "The Soldier" by Father Dennis Edward O'Brien, USMC
The Soldier
It is the soldier, not the reporter,
who has given us freedom of the press.
It is the soldier, not the poet,
who has given us freedom of speech.
It is the soldier, not the campus organizer,
who has given us the freedom to demonstrate.
It is the soldier, not the lawyer,
who has given us the right to a fair trial.
It is the soldier,
who salutes the flag,
who serves under the flag,
and whose coffin is draped by the flag,
who allows the protester to burn the flag.
Now, with reference to big government. Hmmmm, we see big government in action this morning as its agencies head to Haiti.
January 13, 2010 at 8:40 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
create (anonymous) says...
Oh, wait a minute. Shall we just chuck Haiti and not send any help at all? What good are they to us? Hmmmmm?
January 13, 2010 at 8:47 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
create (anonymous) says...
Oh, wait another minute. The governor of our state has declared Lyon County a disaster area as a result of the Christmas Eve blizzard. Let's call the governor and tell him we don't want any of his "big government" money for Lyon County.
January 13, 2010 at 10:03 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
I have the sniffles. I hope the government comes and wipes my nose for me.
January 13, 2010 at 10:59 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
reddog (K. B. Thomas Jr.) says...
President Herbert Hoover sent William Allen White to Haiti to survey the political situation. Mr. White said, "We are in the 20th century looking to the 21st." "They are in the 18th century." Despite 15 years of big government policys, the U.S. high commission admitted that the country was little better suited for self government than they were in 1915. The Marines left in 1934. The Americans left in frustration. Big Government Stimulus programs failed. And I want to note that Haiti has probably more witchcraft than any other nation on earth. Did God bring this tragedy on Haiti? Will San Francisco or Washington D.C. be next. Go to D.C.Sorcery. God Bless and have a blessed day.
January 13, 2010 at 11:48 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
create
You go girl!
seriouslyfolks
Even if they did you would just gripe and complain because they would then want to raise your taxes.
January 13, 2010 at 12:24 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
"Oh, wait another minute. The governor of our state has declared Lyon County a disaster area as a result of the Christmas Eve blizzard. Let's call the governor and tell him we don't want any of his "big government" money for Lyon County."
Can we get by without the money? Could the money help someone else more?
My wife was unable to work during the pregnancy of our first child and lost her job because of an unsympathetic boss. Shortly after his birth I had to take a job that paid less than the one I had had. Things got very tight very fast. We qualified for government assistance that probably would have made things a lot easier but we felt that we could get by and that there were many others more needy than ourselves that that money could actually help and not just make things easier for, so we took none of it. I know it's a pipe dream but it would be nice if we would all distinguish between want and need and only take when it is necessary so there is more for the truly needy. Without a mentality change we will burden the government to the point that it does "collapse under its own weight".
January 13, 2010 at 12:24 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
sandman (anonymous) says...
Seriously, I so agree with you, also biscuitboy, in regards concerning North Lyon County. No one wants something to affect them but the problem arises when your economy goes "sour", which ours has. Is there a TERRIFIC answers to any given question, I doubt, but truly feel we are just at the beginning of ALL cutbacks and we better wake-up and smell the roses, it "ain't" going to be easy!!!! The song "I Never Promised you a Rose Garden" comes to mind.
January 13, 2010 at 3:10 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
sandman (anonymous) says...
open_eyes, thank for the site, very interesting.
January 13, 2010 at 3:11 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
I have set here and read how people make referance to " Big Government "... " Big Government Money " ! I am somewhat confused on the issue of " Big Government Money " !
I was under the impression that all the money that " Big or Small Government " has or recieves from the taxpayers .... was actually taxpayer money ... " Given to the Government " by the Nations taxpayers .... for the payment of doing the " peoples/taxpayers " business and was not to be " squandered " or " spent " , on trival, unnecessary and unneeded B.S. .... but was to be used for the defense of the Nation and its people by means of a trained ... volunteer or inducted .... armed force ... aka Army, Navy, AirForce, Marines, National Guard, Army Reserve, etc., and to see to it that the infrastructure as well as needed support of social services .... of the Nation did not crumble and collapse ... as well as the educating of the masses ?
But a large part of the money given to the Government has not been used for the purpose it was given to the Government . But... instead has been stolen or cajoled or defrauded from the Government and taxpayers by those ... both ... within the U.S.A. .... and .... from outside the U.S.A. ! And the sad part is .... some or all of our own trusted .... elected officials are part and parcel of the raping of the U.S.A./taxpayers !
Hence.... the current economic and monetary dilema ...crisis.... the U.S.A. is currently experiencing !
And exactly when does a Government, become ... Too Big or Too Small ?
What is ... the Ideal/perfect Government ...and .... is there such a thing ?
Will there ever be a Government that will satisfy everyone ?
I don' t have the answer ... but I do know ... that we as taxpaying citizens .... have absolutely no power to control any size Government that has become so corrupt and continues to become even more corrupt !
Even our own ... small .... local government/elected leader ... ask for help from the citizen taxpayers ... for help in balancing their budgets ... or where to make cuts in spending... but manage to ignore every suggestion that either they ... the elected leaders or their influential friends don' t agree with .... and do as they wish ... anyway !
So, is Government ... too big or too small ... or is it that those who have been elected to serve as leaders of " THE PEOPLES GOVERNMENT " have become so corrupted by those with power, influence and money .... to the point that " OUR/THE PEOPLES " elected peoples representatives ... now ... only heed the orders and wishes of those who have corrupted the elected representatives ... therefore have also corrupted Government ... in general ?
January 13, 2010 at 3:25 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
It's almost like a snowball rolling down a hill...... up to a point.... it is still small enough we can stop it. Once it gets about so big....... we just get rolled over. Are we past that point? Possibly. But if we aren't yet...... I fear we will be soon.
But of course I hope I'm wrong ;-)
January 13, 2010 at 3:32 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
BTW..... the snowball analogy..... goes for corporations as well. They, too, can get "too big to fail"...... or so it is claimed.
Let's just all have a big snowball fight. (But keep them small, and no packing around rock centers) ;-)
January 13, 2010 at 3:34 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mslater (Matt Slater) says...
In order to gain a clear and just idea of the design and end of government, let us suppose a small number of persons settled in some sequestered part of the earth, unconnected with the rest, they will then represent the first peopling of any country, or of the world. In this state of natural liberty, society will be their first thought. A thousand motives will excite them thereto, the strength of one man is so unequal to his wants, and his mind so unfitted for perpetual solitude, that he is soon obliged to seek assistance and relief of another, who in his turn requires the same. Four or five united would be able to raise a tolerable dwelling in the midst of a wilderness, but one man might labor out the common period of life without accomplishing any thing; when he had felled his timber he could not remove it, nor erect it after it was removed; hunger in the mean time would urge him from his work, and every different want call him a different way. Disease, nay even misfortune would be death, for though neither might be mortal, yet either would disable him from living, and reduce him to a state in which he might rather be said to perish than to die.
Thus necessity, like a gravitating power, would soon form our newly arrived emigrants into society, the reciprocal blessings of which, would supersede, and render the obligations of law and government unnecessary while they remained perfectly just to each other; but as nothing but heaven is impregnable to vice, it will unavoidably happen, that in proportion as they surmount the first difficulties of emigration, which bound them together in a common cause, they will begin to relax in their duty and attachment to each other; and this remissness, will point out the necessity, of establishing some form of government to supply the defect of moral virtue.
Some convenient tree will afford them a State-House, under the branches of which, the whole colony may assemble to deliberate on public matters. It is more than probable that their first laws will have the title only of Regulations, and be enforced by no other penalty than public disesteem. In this first parliament every man, by natural right will have a seat.
January 13, 2010 at 3:45 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mslater (Matt Slater) says...
"But as the colony increases, the public concerns will increase likewise, and the distance at which the members may be separated, will render it too inconvenient for all of them to meet on every occasion as at first, when their number was small, their habitations near, and the public concerns few and trifling. This will point out the convenience of their consenting to leave the legislative part to be managed by a select number chosen from the whole body, who are supposed to have the same concerns at stake which those have who appointed them, and who will act in the same manner as the whole body would act were they present. If the colony continue increasing, it will become necessary to augment the number of the representatives, and that the interest of every part of the colony may be attended to, it will be found best to divide the whole into convenient parts, each part sending its proper number; and that the elected might never form to themselves an interest separate from the electors, prudence will point out the propriety of having elections often; because as the elected might by that means return and mix again with the general body of the electors in a few months, their fidelity to the public will be secured by the prudent reflection of not making a rod for themselves. And as this frequent interchange will establish a common interest with every part of the community, they will mutually and naturally support each other, and on this (not on the unmeaning name of king) depends the strength of government, and the happiness of the governed.
Here then is the origin and rise of government; namely, a mode rendered necessary by the inability of moral virtue to govern the world; here too is the design and end of government, viz., freedom and security. And however our eyes may be dazzled with snow, or our ears deceived by sound; however prejudice may warp our wills, or interest darken our understanding, the simple voice of nature and of reason will say, it is right." - Thomas Paine, Common Sense
January 13, 2010 at 3:47 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
Here is the first part of Thomas Paines, Common Sense by Thomas Paine, first published in 1776 !
Of the Origin and Design of Government in General, with Concise Remarks on the English Constitution
SOME writers have so confounded society with government, as to leave little or no distinction between them; whereas they are not only different, but have different origins. Society is produced by our wants, and government by our wickedness; the former promotes our happiness POSITIVELY by uniting our affections, the latter NEGATIVELY by restraining our vices. The one encourages intercourse, the other creates distinctions. The first is a patron, the last a punisher.
Society in every state is a blessing, but Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one: for when we suffer, or are exposed to the same miseries BY A GOVERNMENT, which we might expect in a country WITHOUT GOVERNMENT, our calamity is heightened by reflecting that we furnish the means by which we suffer. Government, like dress, is the badge of lost innocence; the palaces of kings are built upon the ruins of the bowers of paradise. For were the impulses of conscience clear, uniform and irresistibly obeyed, man would need no other lawgiver; but that not being the case, he finds it necessary to surrender up a part of his property to furnish means for the protection of the rest; and this he is induced to do by the same prudence which in every other case advises him, out of two evils to choose the least. Wherefore, security being the true design and end of government, it unanswerably follows that whatever form thereof appears most likely to ensure it to us, with the least expense and greatest benefit, is preferable to all others
January 13, 2010 at 4:18 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
Here is the link to Thomas Paines Common Sense... writings,
http://www.ushistory.org/paine/common...
January 13, 2010 at 4:20 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
create (anonymous) says...
reddog asks, "Did God bring this tragedy on Haiti?"
It didn't take long for some nutso to come out of the woodwork. All of the geographical and geological explanations that have been on TV news programs all day long have apparently fallen on your deaf ears, reddog. Christ! What a fooll you are!
I'll be the next one kicked off the forum to join YY, but when I hear that kind of crap, it makes me sick. We are so highly developed in this country to have all the scientific data and instruments in the world at our disposal and then along comes this stupid thing!
January 13, 2010 at 4:39 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
Bush caused Katrina.
January 13, 2010 at 4:51 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
No open_eyes Bush did not cause Katrina. What Bush's administration caused was the woefully inept reaction to the aftermath of Katrina.
create
For the second time today.....You go girl!
January 13, 2010 at 6:34 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
sandman (anonymous) says...
create, biscuitboy, very nicely stated. create, believe you have
reddog sized correctly. Also, very much agree with open_eyes, that yes, government can get to big for its pants!!!! The more we allow government to control takes power away from the PEOPLE therefore ending up a dictatorship. Are we there? I sincerely hope not but truely at times wonder.
January 13, 2010 at 8:17 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
sandman (anonymous) says...
Count me in if having a snow ball fight, sounds fun!!! I repeat, "no rocks", my skin is fragile!!!!!!
January 13, 2010 at 8:23 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mslater (Matt Slater) says...
I'm all for a snowball fight, just remember they call the last snowball fight this country had the Boston Massacre.
January 13, 2010 at 9:39 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
akamai
Very good post......you said in a few words what I tried earlier to explain in many.....and you did a better job!
January 14, 2010 at 3:22 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
mslater
LOL......very funny....but true!
January 14, 2010 at 3:24 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
When ... Government ....any Government ... large or small and those elected ... " By The People "... to serve as ... " The Peoples Government " ceases its/their ability to function in the best interests of and for the equitable good of " All The People " and begins to function for the good and best interests of just a " Certain Few People, Etc. " .. who or whatever they may be... then that Government becomes a " Mill Stone " around the neck of most of " The People " ... a " Mill Stone " that most of " The People " can neither endure nor afford .... except " Those Certain Few People, Etc. "... who can afford to ... pay for or keep in place... such a Government .
January 14, 2010 at 8:57 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
Here is the type of " Mill Stone " ... that is being hung around the necks of .... " Most Of The People " , http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3032619/ns/n...
January 14, 2010 at 9:04 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
Sorry, wrong web site address !
January 14, 2010 at 9:06 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
Here is the type of " Mill Stone " ... that is being hung around the necks of .... " Most Of The People " , correct web cite address,
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3032619/n...
January 14, 2010 at 9:12 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
Another ... Government placed " Mill Stone " burden .... " The People " must bear ? http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3032619/n...
January 14, 2010 at 9:18 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
That's right methusla. I posted this on another story but it got ignored. Some people refuse to believe that the government is flawed and can be improved(now that their party/team is in complete control). The split second you start to complain in the least they jump all over you and say that all government spending (except national defense) is absolutely necessary because someone somewhere "needs" it. We will get no where like that.
seriously folks said "If no one complains about taxes and how they are spent more things like this( http://fieldnotes.msnbc.msn.com/archi... ) will happen and go relatively unchecked. The only reason they are doing anything about it now is so they can create another huge fraud target. I really don't know why we are expected to have this unquestioning trust of the government all of a sudden. I don't think they have earned it."
January 14, 2010 at 9:31 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
seriouslyfolks
I agree,
When one ignores and trusts that " aligator or shark " that is and has been swimming with you ... with your trust and ignorance ... to it becoming a threat to you ....with out your demanding or doing anything about it you will eventually pay a price for your ignorance and blind trust and the price you pay may or will be a severe one !
January 14, 2010 at 9:52 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
There needs to be a full accounting of where and for what tax dollars are to be spent, before tax dollars are spent and " The Peoples " elected representatives need to be held accountable for any and all unnecessary, unneeded, wasteful, extravagant spending !
There also needs to be a full accounting of all the " Hidden ", taxable.... wealth/income ... that is being hidden in all Secret... Swiss numbered bank accounts, Off Shore Accounts, Shell Companys/Corporations, etc., ... inorder to bring tax laws more into line as a " Fair and Equitable " taxing policy or law !
Whether the " People " of the U.S.A. want to believe it or not ... the Government of the U.S.A. is and has been being run .... bought and paid for.... by certain individuals, corporations, etc., .... both Domestic and Foreign .... for quite a while now !
January 14, 2010 at 10:10 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
http://allaboutfrogs.org/stories/scor...
"Trust us we're from the government."
January 14, 2010 at 10:12 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
Right on seriously !
January 14, 2010 at 10:20 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
And for those people who believe that everyone in the U.S.A. pays their fair share of taxes on income moneys' ..... this may or may not be of interest, http://www.time.com/time/magazine/art...
Make of it what you will !
January 14, 2010 at 10:22 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
Think how how many more resource there would be to help out the Haitians if the government didn't allow all that medicare fraud. I know they can't stop it all but certainly they can do a better job than they have been. Private insurance companies certainly do a better job of protecting their money. Maybe that's the difference, it's their money. The government doesn't need to be as concerned since it's our money and not theirs.
January 14, 2010 at 11:01 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
As I have said before .... the U.S.A. .... has become .... neither a " Republic ' or " DEMOCRACY ' ..... the U.S.A. has become and is a " PLUTOCRACY " !
January 14, 2010 at 11:17 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
I back-up my last statement with the following web address,
http://baltimorechronicle.com/072605M...
January 14, 2010 at 11:21 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
Yep, see, every time someone questions the government someone else gets on and makes some statement about how everything the government does is necessary and they can't do things more efficiently and everyone should just shut up. Well it seems to me that if medicare would have been properly policed from the get go the government could have easily paid for that policing and had money to spare. They are starting to look at policing it better now only because they want to create another huge fraud target and who's to say they'll police that any better? Blindly trust them if you want but I choose not to. I don't think they have earned it.
January 14, 2010 at 11:55 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
Government should NEVER blindly earn our trust. And in our history they never have. They should always be held accountable and watchdogs should always be vigilant. That USED to be the job of the free press........
January 14, 2010 at 12:35 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
open_eyes
Neither has big business and the Republican Party...JMO
January 14, 2010 at 12:38 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
And where in my post where I said "NEVER", "in our history", and "always" did I imply in any way, shape or form that any party was any less guilty than the other?
January 14, 2010 at 1:08 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
akamai
Apparantely you have not visited any of the web sites that I have provided. If you had .... you just may come away with a different attitude and outlook !
Perhaps you are simply satisfied with the present state of affairs in the U.S. .... or perhaps you are one of the ..." PLUTOCRATS " that are running the U.S. Government and Society in the U.S., .... or perhaps your are one of those ' PLUTOCRATS " ..... who is hiding wealth/income ... so as .. not have to pay taxes on such income !
Oh, and here is another web site for you and others to visit ..... if you would like to . http://www.forbes.com/2008/10/21/taxe...
January 14, 2010 at 1:13 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
But, open_eyes .... the Government and those who are manipulating Government for their own means ..... have not ... and will not .... be held accountable for anything !
But I may be wrong !
More transparency, accountability and honest ... watchdogs/policing ...of...Government and the Plutocrats that are manipulating governmental policy/laws is needed ..... not necessarily .... more government ! And creating government agencies to be the police/watchdogs of government and the plutocrats that run government .... will not work either .... all that would accomplish is to create a bigger first dog to have to watch/police and who would police the police and so on and so on ! So, there-in lies the dilema .... a little dog .... trying to watch .... a big dog...just .. or creating an even bigger dog .will not work !
And the Government, elected legislators or the plutocrats will not hold themselves accountable for anything .... cannot be expected to police/watchdog themselves .... or .... make everything they do transparant .... to the .... taxpayers ..... you know the people who are paying and suffering for the Governments and Plutocrats ... actions !
January 14, 2010 at 1:28 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
methusla...... hence my remark that it USED to be the job of the free and independent press. But nowadays they're not so free and not so fair anymore. I can remember the good old days when a scoop was a scoop was a scoop, regardless of which party it was who's dirty laundry was uncovered. Now it seems depending on which media outlet it is, they only look for scoops in one direction, and gloss over/try to ignore anything in the other.
January 14, 2010 at 1:35 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
open_eyes
I must agree.... that the media ..... free press... if you will .... USED to be " THE PEOPLES " ... watch dog ..... however that does not seem to be .... the case ... as much ... anymore !
January 14, 2010 at 1:45 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
sandman (anonymous) says...
Biscuitboy, for your info:
Democratic Party has become the Lawyers' Party
Barack Obama is a lawyer
Michelle Obama is a lawyer
Hillary Clinton is a Lawyer
Bill Clinton is a Lawyer
John Edwards is a lawyer
Elizabeth Edwards is a lawyer
Every Democrat nominee since 1984 went to law school (although Gore did not graduate)
Every Democrat vice presidential nominee since 1976, except for Lloyd entsen, went to law school
Look at the leaders of the Democrat Party in Congress:
Harry Reid is a lawyer
Nancy Pelosi is a lawyer
Republican Party:
President Bush was a business man
Vice President Cheney a businessman
Newt Gingrich was a history professor
Tom Delay was an exterminator
Dick Armey was an economist
House Minority Leader Boehner was a plastic manufacturer
Former Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist is a hear surgeon
The last Republican president twho was a lawyer: G. Ford
The Republican Party is made up of real people doing real work, who are often the targets of lawyers.
The Democrat Party is made up of lawyers. Democrats mock and scorn men who create wealth, like Bush and Chaney, or who heal the sick, like Frist, or who immerse themselves in history, like Gingrich..
Lawyers seek to have new laws passed, they seek to win lawsuits they press appellate courts to overturn precedent, and lawyers always use e language to favor their side.
Biscuitboy, are you related to a lawyer?
January 14, 2010 at 1:52 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
sandman
Real people !!!!! I saw no mention of any real people in either list you mentioned .... such as .... an electrician, trash collector, waiter, waitress, dish washer, fast food worker, fry cook, farmer, farm hand, meter reader, plumber, construction worker, mechanic, teacher, firefighter, policeman ....soldier .... real people .... doing real jobs ..... getting their hands dirty and their bodies worn down or broken .... doing real work for real .... worked for pay .... and some work .... for little pay..... that is being taken from them in increased taxes, etc. ..... by those... so called .... real people you mentioned in your post !
These are the real people of this or any nation !
January 14, 2010 at 2:59 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
Oh, sandman, most of those " real people " lawyers you mentioned ..... most of them .... work for people.... such as the ......other list of real people you mentioned in you list as " Real People ...... Republican Party:
President Bush was a business man
Vice President Cheney a businessman
Newt Gingrich was a history professor
Tom Delay was an exterminator
Dick Armey was an economist
House Minority Leader Boehner was a plastic manufacturer
Former Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist is a hear surgeon
The last Republican president twho was a lawyer: G. Ford " !
January 14, 2010 at 3:05 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
She said Tom Delay was an exterminator. That's pretty real. Let's not forget Arnold Schwarzenegger, he is an exTerminator also. ;-)
I heard that he is writing a book about his political carrier and how his movie characters influenced his choices. It's called "Going Commando". (rim shot)
I'll be back.
January 14, 2010 at 3:07 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
It would seem that we have regressed to discussing which political party .... best runs the Government/Country ...... instead of " Big Government " . In my humble opinion .... it makes, absolutely....no difference....which political party seems to have the appearance of being in power and running the Government and Country....supposedly.... in accordance with the best interests of " The People and the Country " or whether the " Government is Big or Small " !
What does matter ..... is the fact that..... the real power behind the running of the Government lies in the hands....and pocket books ..... of the " Plutocrats " who are controlling the government lawmakers/policy makers puppet strings .... making them do exactly what a good puppet should do ...... and that is .....only what the " Plutocrats "... " The Government Puppet Masters ".... want and urge the " Government Law/Policy Makers" to do .... and mostly for the benefit of the " Plutocrats " ..." Government Puppet Master " ..... and noone else !
January 14, 2010 at 3:27 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
sandman (anonymous) says...
Meth, did I get a "rise" out of you?? Sorry, but was expecting that.You state that most of these people worked for people, hurrah!!!! Isn't that what we want in office, someone that will carry out our wishes in the best interest of our nation?? Not someone who changes everything in THEIR best interest?
Seriously, as usual, enjoyed your post. Good "ole" Arnold!!! I have family that lives in Ca., you are either for him or think he is a joke, I can see how you feel.(I tend to back you up on this one!!!)
January 14, 2010 at 3:39 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
create (anonymous) says...
methusla, what's with the ellipses? Your posts are difficult to read with all those dots.
My question to you, methusla, is what form of government do you want? What are your ideas for fixing the problem as you see it? And please, not just vote the bums out. That never works.
Be fair, sandman. President Obama may be a lawyer but he also was a law professor, just as Newt G. was a history professor.. Michelle worked for a hospital. All sounds real to me.
Are we damning lawyers today? Hey, just sayin'.
January 14, 2010 at 3:56 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
USNretired (anonymous) says...
Line Item Veto
January 14, 2010 at 4:08 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Steve_Corbin (anonymous) says...
Just wondering?
I
AM
AKA?
January 14, 2010 at 4:10 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
create (anonymous) says...
I agree.
Speaking of money. Here's an easy and safe way to donate ten bucks to Haiti recovery efforts.
Donate $10 to the Red Cross to be charged to your cell phone bill by texting "HAITI" to "90999."
That is from the Whitehouse web site so it's safe. Here's the link:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/haitiearthq...
Thanks everyone.
January 14, 2010 at 4:12 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
I am sorry that my posts are difficult to read ! People have said that I run things together or my posts are to lengthy, etc ! So I thought I would try a different tack . Guess that isn' t working either !
The type of Government I would like to see is an honest, uncorrupted, " Government of and for all the People, equally , One that is fair and equitable and above all one that is free of the influence of the " Plutocrats " !
I also realize that what I am asking for in the way of Government is, in all probability, an impossibility ! However the type of Government me/we have had to endure is a " travisty" , " comedy of errors " and a very biased government !
Short of " Anarchy or Revolution ", I have no viable answers, Sorry! Therefore I suppose I am just a " Crotchity Old Complainer/Bitcher/Whiner and know absolutely nothing about anything . Shoot I don' t even know how to put down my thoughts in a respectible, readable manor !
January 14, 2010 at 4:13 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
sandman (anonymous) says...
No Create, not damning lawyers today, I know a number that I think are super, just stating "facts". Biscuitboy, in one of his replies stated "republicans", which I felt was uncalled for, so that is why I posted like I did.It truly depends upon the person and THEIR beliefs, not party. Many times I have "crossed" voted, having the feeling "what will they do for our nation". Kinda agree with Meth, maybe a thrid party?
As far as Michelle Obama, yes, she worked for a hospital in a legal area, have you looked at the salary she made??? Gee, with that salary she must have been important, BUT she has NOT been replaced, OOPS!!!!(Over $300,000.) What does that have to say concerning "value", think husband had something to do with the "hiring"?
January 14, 2010 at 4:22 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
sandman (anonymous) says...
Meth, I for one always enjoy your post, don't always agree but I enjoy reading them, as with others. At times biscuitboy, I could ring his neck but I still enjoy. Seriously, at time serious but also "funny". None of us on here ARE Enlish professors or "wantabe's". Heavens! as far as ringing biscuitboys neck, that is what makes the world go around, people being different and INTERESTING!
January 14, 2010 at 4:39 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
create (anonymous) says...
I don't know, sandman, about who had anything to do with Michelle Obama's hiring. Yes, she made a good salary. I have a daughter that makes almost that much as the VP of marketing in a medium sized company. I don't hold her in contempt for it. I'm proud of her. She has worked her way up the ranks from little Wichita State, and I know how hard she works too.
Like you, I believe in the man/woman and his/her word and ideas on issues, not the party. I almost always cross in one race or another.
January 14, 2010 at 4:43 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
LOL methusla, I think we generally have no problem understanding your point - we all have different ways of getting our points across. I would like to ask you though (and I apologize if this has been asked before) - why you almost always end every sentence with an exclamation mark (!). It's almost sometimes like when people write in all caps - it means extra emphasis, or shouting, or something like that. Not that its a big deal. Just curious. Are you really that agitated every time you write? (A friendly jest meant only in good fun there ;-)
January 14, 2010 at 5 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
no wonder
January 14, 2010 at 5:23 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
No sandman....I am a lawyer......Just Kidding!
Just think how boring these boards would be without me to keep all you right wingers stirred up. If all we did was sit around and tell each other how much we loved reading each others stuff and how we agreed with each other this forum would be as boring as watching grass grow.
So yeah.....I don't trust government very much...I trust Republicans even less.....and I don't trust FOX News at all.....So There! Now I sincerely hope you all have a nice evening. :-)
January 14, 2010 at 6:14 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
A nice evening giving me down the road that is.....LOL
I love it when you talk dirty to me!
January 14, 2010 at 6:23 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
sandman (anonymous) says...
biscuitboy, how I love your sense of humor!!!! Darn, I thought your last sentence was directed to me :-) and it is to everyone. Boy! way to burst my bubble!!!! :-( Have a super evening all, I've been cleaning and this gal, is tired!!!!
Create, I think it is truly great that your daughter, first, likes her job and second, is nicely compensated. My thought on Michelle Obama was because if she held such an important position, why hasn't she been replaced? I know a number of women in the Higher pay level that earn every penney they get, your daughter sounds like one. Super! I have a son that wants to be CEO of his company and with his work ethics he has and with the companies help, he just may make it.
January 14, 2010 at 6:44 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
create (anonymous) says...
Best of everything to your son and his aspirations, sandman. Notice I didn't say best of luck because luck has nothing to do with it, only hard work and smart thinking. Sounds like he's on his way. Blessings.
Akamai, I just love your wonderful name. When I was a kid, my grandmother used to ask me to read to her and afterwards would always follow up with, "Ahhh, you number one akamai."
January 14, 2010 at 7:01 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Steve_Corbin (anonymous) says...
akamai ,
Thanks for the language lesson.
I guess we could still say you are Also Known As;
smart
wise
shrewd
:)
January 15, 2010 at 8:12 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
Steve and create
Early indications are that our new found poster is both very wise and very shrewed.
January 15, 2010 at 8:19 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
some may say
January 15, 2010 at 9:21 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fLR3F...
"You made no preparation for my reputation once again "
January 15, 2010 at 9:28 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
sandman (anonymous) says...
Akamai, agree with the above and thanks so much for the language lesson, SOMEDAY! hope to go to Hawaii and this will give me an early start with their language. super! Any volunteers to headout before the next storm hits???? Think SUN,SUN! Yippee!!!! (someday)
January 15, 2010 at 2:38 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
sandman (anonymous) says...
Please watch, doesn't matter if you are Catholic or not, which I'm not,but truly has some very good points concerning "Big Government" Hope this site works.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVN2MM...
January 15, 2010 at 9:28 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
create (anonymous) says...
Thanks for the post, sandman. Wow, amazing video there. I wonder where they come up with such outrageous ideas and offer only one side? That is poor argument to begin with.
Since the Pope is so righteous, I wonder why he won't release those many, many precious works of art stolen from Jewish people and sent to the Vatican by the Nazis?
The term "Catholic" means universal. Hmmmm. Just thinking, that's all.
So no one accuses me of being anti-Catholic, I am one.
January 16, 2010 at 7:56 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
I couldn't help but laugh about the inclusion of Hitler in his list of things the Catholic Church had opposed in its fight against Socialism. Especially considering the well know and well documented way the Church coddled the "National Socialist" of Hitlers Third Reich in it quest to further enrich itself on stolen Jewish treasures.
After that I quit listening to anything else he had to say.
January 16, 2010 at 9:34 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
Here is a more realistic look at the Catholic Church and the Nazi Regime
http://emperors-clothes.com/vatican/c...
Now see create...it still doesn't transfer as a link....I don't know what I am doing wrong here?
January 16, 2010 at 9:43 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
create....Never Mind!
January 16, 2010 at 9:45 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jilpb...
Seriously Reformed Folks
January 16, 2010 at 10:09 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
Since the topic " Big, Big Governmenty " has turned to the influence of certain religions on Governments and Government law making and policy making ! Perhaps this might be of interest, http://www.theocracywatch.org/bush2.htm or http://www.cceia.org/resources/articl... or http://soc.hfac.uh.edu/artman/publish...
I won' t get in on this discussion of government and religion, religion in government or religious influence on government ! As it is my opion that religion is, in its own way, a powerful and influential form of government .
January 16, 2010 at 11:24 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
How true methusla...how very true. And of course the Vatican is not only a government.....it is a country.
January 16, 2010 at 11:41 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
biscuitboy
Oh, that is also very true and an influential one at that !
Wow, the comming together of great minds, in agreement, in agreement, to boot ! Amazing !
January 16, 2010 at 11:46 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
It is more likely that we will lose all religious freedom in this country than it be turned into a theocracy.
January 16, 2010 at noon ( permalink | suggest removal )
jasper007 (anonymous) says...
Is there someway Lyon County can refuse the "disaster" money, that our "NEW" Governor offered and distribute it to the school districts of Lyon County? USD 252 seems to be doing just find with their new astro-turf. What about 251 and 252? Has anyone been paying attention? What a "disaster" for both of these "country" districts! There are places that can be cut in these districts but to consolidate? NO WAY. Remember when the Lottery was first touted as a way to help out our State education? I've been living under a rock, because a few months ago, I found out that was the way the State got us to agree on the lottery. But now, what happened to all the education dollars from the lottery? Most is now being used for other purposes and I'm sure the Lottery Administration sees their "fare share". Education should be the priority here. Not astro-turf, consolidation, excess administrative pay. Come on Senator Barnett. You come from a rural area. What are you going to do to help these rural districts out? Do the right thing, and thank you....
January 16, 2010 at 12:37 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jasper007 (anonymous) says...
I made a mistake on the District numbers, 251, 252 and 253. When you read my comment, hopefully you will figure it out. Does anyone know how to edit your post?
January 16, 2010 at 1:10 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
I'm not so sure seriouslyfolks.....
This probably comes as no big surprise to you, but I'm not so sure we are not real close to a theocracy already. Not literally in a technical sense...but symbolically in a practical sense.
We are a nation that is predominantly one religion.....we claim to be based on god and his law......we celebrate the founder of that religions earthly birthday as a national holiday......and there is a significant portion of the population that wants to expand the role of that religion even further into the public realm. If that's not a theocracy...it sure is a close cousin.
We even swear people into office and to testify on the Holy Book of that religion. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that all of this is a terrible thing, even though I would be very opposed to any further expansion of it. But there is a consistent and widespread link between the Christian religion and the American government.
January 16, 2010 at 2:02 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
jasper007
The only edit ability I know of is to post a correction such as you did. If anybody knows of an edit feature I would sure like to know about it also.
January 16, 2010 at 2:27 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
sandman (anonymous) says...
biscuitboy, Thank you for the site, was very interesting, doesn't appear as if there was much separation of "church and state" in Germany at that time. Was truly interesting. I don't see much difference between what the Germans did to the Jews etc. and what we currently do by abortion, life is life. Boy! am I going to get stomped on!!!! I know, when does "life" begin? debate!!!!
January 16, 2010 at 5:03 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
create (anonymous) says...
LOL biscuitboy, you really did post a link, you really, really, really did. Good for you!!!
The best editing is to read what you said once you press preview comment.
Yes, jasper, I was able to pick out what you meant with districts.
I taught at Olpe for many, many years. Many, many times over the years, when that school needed something desperately and couldn't afford it, parents got together and did it with their hard, honest work.
I remember several years ago when the football team played for the state title with Frontenac. The state required that the school be able to provide x amount of bleachers in order for them to host the game. They didn't have as many bleachers as the state required so parents got together with big hay trucks and went to other towns to borrow their bleachers. They trucked them in and set them up, then returned all of them the next week. It was absolutely wonderful to see.
I believe the track was built that way too as was the sprinkler system on the football field. Those people down there make things happen from their hearts. And pockets.
I hear too often around here people saying "Well, that's what I pay taxes for." Too bad.
January 16, 2010 at 6:16 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jasper007 (anonymous) says...
Sandman, I remember things like this. Unfortunately I also remember attending Reading High School when we had the old metal backboards for basketball. Northern Heights had always had the fiberglass ones. We had asked for new fiberglass boards. Know what we got? Northern Heights old ones while the new ones went to Northern Heights. There was also a story similar to new band uniforms, but that's another story. At the time, we looked on it as being very unfair. To look at it today, at least the district helped everyone involved (even though it still sometimes chaps my backside). I may be off the topic here, but my concern is the consolidation of the rural districts. I think EVERYONE really needs to try to make sure this not happen. Of course if it is impossible, well I'm glad I don't have to make any decisions. Look at Reading today. It used to have a grocery store, 2 cafes, a "dime" store, an electric shop, 2 gas stations, etc. Now there's just the bank, elevator, post office, a new cafe and the elementary school. They always say when you lose a school, you lose everything. Hartford and Olpe are pretty well "established" towns,and probably can survive, but look at Reading, Admire and Americus. Congratulations on being a teacher. I do remember some of mine and always thought they were the best around. Not only did you learn "schooling", you also learned some of "life's lessons". P.S. Thank God for the "preview" button (ha ha).
January 17, 2010 at 10:01 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
Yes create...I was a good boy.....I'm so proud.....I finally learned how to post a link....LOL
January 17, 2010 at 10:49 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jasper007 (anonymous) says...
Here I am bragging about the preview button, and I address my comment towards the wrong poster! That should have been addressed to "create" instead of "sandman". Hey, it's Sunday morning and my doctor has cut me back on my caffeine. Sorry, folks.......
January 17, 2010 at 10:51 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
sandman
I don't intend to stomp you. I like you despite that fact that you want to wring my neck. LOL. In fact maybe that's why I like you.....Just Kidding!
I do however think there is a considerable difference between the Nazi Holocaust and the current abortion question in this country
First difference is just the sheer scale and purpose of the two. I don't know how many abortions have been performed in this country since the passage of Roe V. Wade but I feel comfortable that it is significantly fewer than the six million that died during the holocaust. But that is an arguable argument.
To me the real difference.....(irregardless of whether you place the beginning of life at conception--or viability--or birth).....is simple. To me there is a greater degree of wrong in killing a person that has known live, known love, seen the sky and smelled a rose, heard a baby cry, and knows what you are doing and why you are doing it, than a fetus that has experienced little if any of those sensations. JMO
January 17, 2010 at 11:11 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Steve_Corbin (anonymous) says...
Boy. biscuit, just wait till everyone gets out of church to respond to your last.
You have a gift.
:-)
January 17, 2010 at 12:27 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
create (anonymous) says...
jasper, thanks for the correction. I knew, however, that you meant me. No problem.
Have you tried the 1/2 Caf type of coffee? I had to wean myself from pure coffee because of the acid, and found that the 1/2 Caf by Folgers is just fine. Once in awhile, though, I treat myself to a cup of Starbucks marvelous coffee.
January 17, 2010 at 1:03 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
MadMack (anonymous) says...
What about all of the studies concerning reading, music etc as applied to the prenatal state? The Constitution explicitly allows the free practice of religion while never stating anything directly concerning any seperation of church and state. There is an interesting part about the seperation of powers for the 3 seperate branches of government.
January 17, 2010 at 3:18 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
Biscuitboy, it is in fact far, far, greater than the 6 million Jews who died in the Holocaust. Somewhere in the neighborhood of 1.3 million/year in the US.
Here is the chart of abortions performed in the US each year since 1973: There are 2 figures given - CGI (Planned Parenthood) and CDC (Center for Disease Control).
1973 744,600 615,831
1974 898,600 763,476
1975 1,034,200 854,853
1976 1,179,300 988,267
1977 1,316,700 1,079,430
1978 1,409,600 1,157,776
1979 1,497,700 1,251,921
1980 1,553,900 1,297,606
1981 1,577,300 1,300,760
1982 1,573,900 1,303,980
1983 1,575,000 1,268,987
1984 1,577,200 1,333,521
1985 1,588,600 1,328,570
1986 1,574,000 1,328,112
1987 1,559,100 1,353,671
1988 1,590,800 1,371,285
1989 1,566,900 1,396,658
1990 1,608,600 1,429,577
1991 1,556,500 1,388,937
1992 1,528,900 1.359,145
1993 1,500,000 1,330,414
1994 1,431,000 1,267,415
1995 1,363,690 1,210,883
1996 1,365,730 1,221,585
1997 1,365,730 1,186,039
1998 1,365,730 884,273*
1999 1,365,730 861,789*
2000 1,312,990 857,475**
2001 1,303,000& 853,485**
2002 1,293,000&
2003 1,293,000&&
2004 1,293,000&&
As you can see..... over 40 million abortions since 1973 just in the US alone.
http://www.abortiontv.com/Misc/Aborti...
January 17, 2010 at 4:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
MadMack
Article the third [Amendment I]
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
That pretty much sounds to me like they did intend to maintain a separation of church and state...
January 17, 2010 at 4:51 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
open-eyes You never disappoint me buddy. I full well expected you to research that statement which is why I ended it with "but that is an arguable argument. I was wrong about the numbers,,,grossly wrong....mia culpa!
But I also said that was not my real point...my real point was the second one and I stand by that statement. Also please note I made it quite clear that the second statement was my opinion (hence JMO). Others I'm sure have differing opinions and I believe we all still have the right to state them. I would be happy to listen to other opinions on the relative difference or sameness of the two very separate tragedies....and to discuss them.
January 17, 2010 at 5 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
Also please note I did not start this conversation....sandman did. :-)
January 17, 2010 at 5:30 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
MadMack (anonymous) says...
biscuitboy You make my point, so you agree with me fully on this subject. Free practice and no mention of any seperation.
January 17, 2010 at 6:58 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
The Jews were killed because of their race which they have no control over and someone thought the world would be a better place without them.
Babys are aborted because of their age which they have no control over and someone thought that the world would be a worse place with them.
Abortion takes away 100% of the choices that the aborted person will ever make. Pro choice? Really? It doesn't sound like it to me.
January 17, 2010 at 7:04 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
I understand, biscuitboy, I did not argue your second point. Merely stated the facts as they were regarding the first point. As you knew I would ;-)
January 17, 2010 at 7:44 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
sandman (anonymous) says...
Biscuitboy, couldn't sleep, so here I am. You state: "First difference is just sheer scale and purpose of the two." The numbers have been shown, now the "purpose of the two". What is the purpose but to take life? It has been argued that a fetus is just a parasite living on a "host". The problem is that the fetus is MORPHING to become a person! Once born, the host continues on. A parasite never changes form to become anything more than what it was, a fetus will change when given "life". When does life begin? I was a 7th month gestation baby, which truly says something for the year I was born and here I am, a number of years later. The problem with abortion as with any decision that is made that is questionable, when is it acceptable? lst,2nd or 3rd trimester? Once a law is passed, there will be someone "pushing" the time period of when it is acceptable.
As I stated, abortion is to take life. Why aren't we teaching the prevention of life? We live in a wonderful age, a time period that there are more different kinds of contraceptions then ever before. Instead of using abortion as our "main" contraception as a nation, let's teach the prevention of life. This would also cut down the medical cost and instead of giving free abortions, as is in our new medical plan, let us teach LIFE! I agree with open_eyes and seriously, prochoice, whose????
My daughter is currently in her 7th month of pregnancy, now by your statement, if that baby was born, yes it would know love and life!!! Perhaps not truly understanding those "feelings" but feeling comfort. I do agree concerning what they have said concerning reading, talking to the fetus while in the womb. Believe that "Yes", this is true. I have been amazed at watching my daughters stomach and when she talks to the little one, the movement that is shown! Yes, a miracle!!! (and Life!)
January 18, 2010 at 2:08 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
MadMack....Wrong.
I agree half with you and the other half strongly against you.
Free Practice Of--I agree, and that includes all religions, and /or the practice of no religion at all. It never says or implies that any specific religion shall be preferred.....which brings us to the other half.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion--If you can't make a law to establish a religion then the two are ipso facto separated.....Get my drift?
January 18, 2010 at 4 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
I'm not sure parasite is the right term to describe a fetus.....more like an abnormal growth similar perhaps to a tumor. And fetuses, like tumors change and grow....morph if you will. But neither, in the begining, has a viable life of its own and can not live with out the host. Tumors never become viable....only maybe cancerous. Fetuses do. But until they become viable they are not yet life...they are an abnormal growth. That to me is the important distinction.....viability.
Most people seem to agree that viability occurs in the third trimester.....and at that point I believe abortion becomes a much more serious issue. To some extent the law also reflects this change But to say that terminating a fetus in the first two trimesters is tantamount to marching a family into a gas chamber because you hate their religion is a far stretch in my opinion. To extend human life all the way to conception is to me almost as silly as claiming that masturbation and menstruation destroy human life. But of course all of this is my opinion.
Now....Why aren't we teaching the prevention of life? From where this old man sits it looks to me like the biggest obstacle to teaching the prevention of life are those people that see only one way to prevent it....abstinence. The very same people that claim that life begins at conception are the ones that are the most opposed to abortion....and ironically...to the teaching of birth control. They are typically religious zealots that are trying to kill two birds with one stone.....and in a manner of speaking do extend their concept of life to the egg and the sperm.
One more point about the numbers that open-eyes provided for us. If all the abortions that were not viable life forms were removed from those numbers I wonder how much that would lower the numbers?
January 18, 2010 at 4:29 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
Of the 1.6 million abortions performed in the U.S. each year, 91 percent are performed during the first trimester (12 or fewer weeks' gestation); 9 percent are performed in the second trimester (24 or fewer weeks' gestation); and only about 100 are performed in the third trimester (more than 24 weeks' gestation), approximately .01 percent of all abortions performed.
These stats came from none other than FOX news. As you can see they vastly alter the impact if you separate out the abortions performed after viability. In fact....third trimester abortions.....viable fetuses....amounted to only a little more than three thousand abortions during that thirty year period. Even by adding second trimester the numbers still fall far below the six million figure for the holocaust.
January 18, 2010 at 5:01 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
Here's the link
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,8...
January 18, 2010 at 5:03 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
The reason I disagree with the parasite analogy is the parasite is a viable life form both before and during all of the time it is attached to the host. The fetus is not a viable life form until around the third trimester. Prior to that time the fetus can not sustain life on its own outside of the host....the parasite can.
January 18, 2010 at 7:24 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
create (anonymous) says...
My oldest was born in 1963, a preemie at 2 lbs, 3 ozs. I was only a little over 6 months pregnant. This was truly a miracle baby because in 1963, it was rare for preemies to survive, especially one so small. Thankfully, the Army hospital where she was born had the specialized equipment needed that civilian hospitals did not. She stayed in a special isolette for 62 days and was fed with mother's milk donated by the La Leche league of Honolulu. The Army research group followed her until she was 21 years old with a questionnaire we had to fill out each year with our regular physician regarding physical and mental growth. All normal. She has always been my best argument against abortion.
Of those figures offered by open_eyes, I wonder why the numbers provided by Planned Parenthood are all higher than those of the CDC? What can we trust?
January 18, 2010 at 7:40 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
MadMack (anonymous) says...
I can't find the "separation of church and state" and neither can you, Your earlier post proves my point. The Constitution is wriiten in English, which I read fluently.
It does say that the state can't make any laws concerning the establishment of a religion, and "no law" means just that.
The Constitution often defines limits on the Government. If only the Courts would do thier job as defined and limited in that Document, we would all be better off.
As a Constitutional Conservative, I believe it says what it says, no more and no less. Period.
January 18, 2010 at 7:41 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
But then again... speaking of a debatable number..... I posted this before on the thread after Tiller was murdered.
In a 1995 speech, Tiller admitted that not all the abortions he does are for fetal abnormalities.
"We have some experience with late terminations: about 10,000 patients between 24 and 36 weeks and something like 800 fetal anomalies between 26 and 36 weeks in the past 5 years."
From a speech given by George R. Tiller at the National Abortion Federation Annual Meeting on April 2-4, 1995 in New Orleans, LA
January 18, 2010 at 8:52 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
Mad Mack
Think what you must buddy.....There is no sense in trying to explain something that you don't want to see. Scholars that are just as fluent in English as you have interpreted it the way I do.....and the Supreme Court has upheld that interpretation. Your argument that the court is just not doing it's job is nothing less than lame. But I have no intention of continuing to discuss it with you......to quote a line out of a movie a while back...."You Sir....Can't handle the truth".
January 18, 2010 at 12:19 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
create (anonymous) says...
We're talking big, big government here, right? I had posted earlier this morning on the News Forum, but no response there. So I will place this here since the topic is big government.
According to CNN this morning, the Israelis set up a field hospital by the end of the second day in Haiti. They have been doing surgery since then and maintaining themselves with their own staff and their own supplies.
As of today, the US has yet to set up a field hospital.
The US however has been sending in a lot of goods that sit at the airport. In one case, the reporter showed instruments used to measure blood pressure. A full case of them. But not one is usable because they came with no pumps.
There is another case of kits used to perform open heart surgery. That isn't the kind of surgery performed in field hospitals.
The disconnect is deadly. What happened? Last week, the Secretary of State Hillary Clinton made a huge deal of giving all the responsibility for overseeing all this to USAID, an agency.
Isn't it ironic that Israel can get here from half way across the globe and set up an entire field hospital while we're still in the starting block. What the hell is wrong?
Too many bureaucrats? Yesterday, the president of the UN was there at the airport walking around shaking hands. Wow!
This morning, Bill Clinton arrived. He was shaking hands. Ah me. Where is General Honore or someone like him? Somebody needs to kick ass and take names, not walk around shaking hands.
This morning, violence has begun to break out as some have broken into a grocery store to loot it to sell stuff on the black market. This makes a good study for a sociology or psychology project -- the law of the street.
Shame on the US State Department. Again!
January 18, 2010 at 12:23 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
create.....so your six month premmie lived.....good. I am very happy for you and her. I sincerely am. But many of them don't, and at six months you are still only one third of the way back into the second trimester. How much further back to you believe you can go with viability. Please don't tell me viability can reasonably extend back to three months...and those first trimester procedures still amount to 91 percent of the abortions performed each year in the U.S.
January 18, 2010 at 12:26 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
goodoleboy (anonymous) says...
Abortion is going to happen, whether the providers out of the country perform the procedure or ones here do it. Most of the anti abortion crowd uses religion as the basis for their argument, which is inherently forcing that belief on those that do not share it. The whole argument is a waste of time, people are going to do what they want to their bodies with or without government intervention.
January 18, 2010 at 12:30 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
Uhm..... maybe it wasn't all Bush's fault then with the poor response to Katrina. Maybe it was partly the fault of the gross inefficiency of FEMA and its unpreparedness. And the local goverrnment in Louisiana making some missteps themselves. And the sheer weight of bureacracy. I hope we don't all start blaming Obama for the problems getting aid to Haiti.
On another note it is interesting (which some in the news are pointing out) - none of the countries that regularly refer to the US as "The Great Satan" are giving anywhere near the help and aid that we are......... we have private people giving more than some of those entire countries. Let alone what our government is doing.
January 18, 2010 at 12:32 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
goodoleboy (anonymous) says...
Concerning Madmack and the separation of church and state:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separati...
for starters....
"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their "legislature" should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between church and State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties."
Thomas Jefferson
I would say based on what I read from the founders opinions on the matter that it was always meant to be separate. I do find it rather amusing that most of the people who do not see it that way are in fact religious.......to each his own
January 18, 2010 at 12:43 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
sandman (anonymous) says...
goodleboy, You had me agreeing until you stated "anti-abortion crowd uses religion as the basis for their argument", sorry, NOT all anti-abortion! It is the taking of life, a life that could have been productive, therefore I still see absolutely no difference between the "Holocaust" and abortion-they were/are the taking of a life that could have been productive. Just as the Germans decided who should live and not, we as a society are doing the same.
Create, you will be interested. This Friday am having a "whole house generator" installed!!!! It will run off of propane, when needed and will kick on automatically after 20 sec. of "no power" which means I can be gone and "no" stress" if storming. Am having a separate 250 gal. tank set for it, alone. This enables me to run approx. a week without filling. Rather expensive considering the fuel, but will allow me the "freedom" of no stress in that area. I have looked at so many different ones this past week and have been truely impressed not only by the selected machine but also of the "after sale" service. Have wanted to do this for 4/5 years and hated to spend the money. This makes my home as "independent" as possible (all but grass cutting). Yes, I wished many times this past week when talking to different representatives to have a man present for they understand these machines much better then I, but with the help of God, sincerely hope I have made the right decision and I feel I have, it will be set-up Friday and a "dry run" on Monday.I'm also finishing up "redoing" of my basement from having a mess, Yes! this girl is getting there. I had water over Christmas (a drain was clod"- Thanks "Roto Ruter"!!!!)
Steve, will be into the "Royall" to buy you that drink sometime soon, this gal has REALLY been busy but getting there!!!!
January 18, 2010 at 1:30 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
goodoleboy (anonymous) says...
Sandman,
I said:
"Most of the anti abortion crowd uses religion as the basis for their argument,"
Which I still feel is an accurate statement. It's very slippery slope, when does life begin? At conception? If this is true then technically an early term abortion is every bit as bad as a late term abortion. My motto is more let people make their choices on abortion, gay marriage, etc. It is not for me to judge.
January 18, 2010 at 1:36 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
Abortion is a subject, I will not debate or argue about with anyone. Because I believe it is an individual personal choice, just as pregnancy, marriage or having children is a personal choice and should not be decisions made by anyone but the individuals involved !
However here is some enteresting info I have come across, that may be of some interest,
When Does Human Life Begin?
The question of when a human life begins is a profoundly intricate one, with widespread implications, ranging from abortion rights to stem cell research and beyond. A key point in the debate rests on the way in which we choose to define the concepts of humanity, life, and human life. What does it mean to be alive? What does it mean to be human? Is a zygote or an embryo alive? Is a zygote or an embryo a human being? These are intricate philosophical questions that often incite intense debate, for their answers are used as evidence in the answers to questions about the moral status of a zygote, embryo or fetus.
The question of when human life begins has been pondered throughout history and in a multitude of cultural contexts. The "answer" is fluid, in that it has been changing throughout history, because any answer about when human life begins is deeply integrated with the beliefs, values and social constructs of the community or individual that drew the conclusion. Throughout history there have been several "answers" to the question of when human life begins, but the only consistency among the answers is that they are always changing as social contexts change, religious morals fluctuate, or new knowledge about the process of embryo development is obtained.
A particularly interesting aspect regarding the question of when human life begins is how the answer to the question is obtained. As the criteria and social contexts change, what methodology or fundamental principles did people use to answer this complicated and convoluted question? Historically, the answer has been coupled with the issue of abortion. As people tried to determine what stage abortion was acceptable, they often confronted the question as to when abortion should be considered destruction of a human life. While abortion is also a complicated issue with many confounding political, social, and cultural factors, historically one of the fundamental determinants of the moral consequences of abortion stemmed from what stage people viewed the embryo as a human being. The moral acceptance of abortion extended from the question as to whether abortion was the destruction of tissue, or whether it was an act of homicide. An analysis of the historical controversy over abortion issues can lead to an understanding of how communities and individuals throughout history were able to address the question of when human life begins.
to be continued :
January 18, 2010 at 2:04 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
continued :
The previous information is but a small part of the info contained on the following web site and certainly will not settle the Abortion debate or violence associated with Abortion . But may be of some interest ! http://8e.devbio.com/article.php?id=162
January 18, 2010 at 2:09 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
koalemos (anonymous) says...
You should not kill something if you don't plan on eating it.
We need a law! http://www.theonion.com/content/video...
January 18, 2010 at 3:29 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
create (anonymous) says...
Wow sandman, your generator sounds spectacular. What a great sense of peace you must have. I'm so happy for you. Yes, the independence is great.
I have one of those sump pumps that will operate on its own even if power goes out. It gives me great peace of mind too since my water heater will go out if it floods.
Let me know when you go for that drink at Steve's; I'll join you for "independence day."
January 18, 2010 at 3:47 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
Abortion in the first and second trimester should be a personal choice. In the third trimester.....after viability.....then it should become a matter of law and tightly controlled. But as goodoleboy suggests whether it is legal or illegal is a moot point. If people are rich enough and want one they can always go over seas...and they will. If they can't afford to do that they can always go to the back alley and the coat hanger abortions of years gone by.....and they did in droves prior to Roe V. Wade. The only difference then it wasn't just the pregnancy that was terminated...it frequently was the mother also. Now what about returning to that is all about saving lives?
January 18, 2010 at 6:16 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
koalemos
Does that include people sentenced to capitol punishment? I'm afraid some of them wouldn't be very tasty.
January 18, 2010 at 6:18 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
koalemos (anonymous) says...
Killing is illegal unless the law say it is good to kill. If it is bad you will die but if it is good you will get a pretty ribbon. If you die while killing in a good way you will get a special flag on your pine box but if you kill for self defense we will question if you were really scared or if you might have just been faking being scared because you got that new gun and if you killed because you were hungry then that is just weird so you need to die unless you were hungry for cow meat but that is a hanging offense so that you can learn your lesson which of course is a total waste because you will be dead so anything you learned will be dead with you unless of course there is some sort of afterlife test that asks:
Is it good to kill?
a. NO
b. YES
c. MAYBE
d. ALL OF THE ABOVE
e. NONE OF THE ABOVE
f. I LIKE ICE CREAM
But then again why would we care if a killer passes a test and what will happen if they fail? Shouldn't we teach them the wrong answers so they will not get the prize because we don't like them very much?
Death and abortion is kind of the same thing except it is different because a fetus can't scream for help but after they can we will defend them but why not defend the defenseless and just let those who can scream defend themselves?
On second thought, the subject is too confusing. Lets talk about simpler things like Klingon Technology and hot looking space chicks.
January 18, 2010 at 6:57 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
MadMack (anonymous) says...
If it is not plainly written in the Constitution, is it really there or is it merely an interpretation, which is subject to change? I find it interesting that liberals like to "interpret" things that disagree with them but can be clearly read by anyone who can read English. Facts must be understood, not interpreted.
January 18, 2010 at 6:58 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
koalemos
Quiz answer.....D & E
I like hot looking space chicks!!!
January 18, 2010 at 7:04 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
sandman (anonymous) says...
Create, Thanks for the nice note, Yes, I'm excited. The loss of power has been my biggest fear the last few years. Not only because of my well pump but also have a sump pump, sledge pump and these would be a mess without energy. It seems the last few years all I've done is clean up messes or added what we had talked about for 25 years and never did. Like I said, "I am getting there" and since I currently have no desire to sell(even tho living in town does sound good at times) I'm an "ole die heart"! Often my deceased husband would say "Boy! I married the right woman"Not a fighter in reality but against the elements, you bet!!! Guess that is the "country gal" in me.
I would be very pleased to meet you in at Steve/Lindas, you let me know since you have a spouse to cook a meal etc.
Weds./Thurs. eve are out, have meetings. You pick the time also. Next week is "opened"currently.(Thank HEAVENS! )
January 18, 2010 at 8:59 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
sandman (anonymous) says...
goodoleboy, Yes! I truly like "Live and Let Live" but do not feel we are considering ALL with abortion. Have a good evening.
January 18, 2010 at 10:35 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
koalemos
One could reverse your statement above just as easily then and say.....Killing is justified unless the law says it isn't.....the end result is the same.
I would feel much more empathy for the anti-abortion crowd if I saw more of their numbers on the picket line outside the Texas Death House in Huntsville when they kill the next prisoner. Conversely, I would feel more empathy for the death penalty protester if I saw more of them outside the abortion clinic. But strangely.....the two rarely seem to become one.....though they both claim--"It's all about saving lifes".
January 19, 2010 at 3:22 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
sandman (anonymous) says...
No biscuitboy, they are entirely different. With abortion, the fetus is killed BEFORE given a chance, with Huntsville, a prinsoner is killed AFTER given a chance, BIG DIFFERENCE!
What are you doing up so early? I just woke up froze, time to see if I can fall back to sleep.
January 19, 2010 at 5:08 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
sandman
I always get up early.....a habit I acquired years ago when driving trucks. Actually this is my favorite and most productive time of the day except when I spend it all setting at this keyboard.
I fail to see what a chance has to do with anything. If it's all about sanctity of life then that sanctity should extend to all life. The bible teaches it is not our place to judge.
If however we elect to pick and chose which life is valuable to protect and which isn't then we not only assume the role of judgement...we also forfeit the claim to life being sanctified in and of itself.
Then, as koalmeos pointed out earlier, it becomes simply a matter of which life the law chooses to protect at any given time....and that puts all life on the table. Then it becomes a choice based on the politics of the moment.....not on morality. JMO
January 19, 2010 at 6:03 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
I still will not get in on this " Big Big Government " discussion, turned " Abortion " turned " Religion " & " Religious Beliefs " argument ! But will only say this, I still believe that any and all of lifes choices are only the responsibility of the individual . I also believe that " Religions ", " Religious Teachings and Beliefs " and certain " Religious Zealots,
/ Radicals " are fighting among themselves for the control of the worlds governments, the human spirit, mind and in some cases the wealth of the world and mankind, there-by drawing mankind into their " World/Country/Mankind Ruling, Power Struggle " . And to me that is a lot of the problem that exists in the world today and that is not what " God " nor " Jesus " wanted for mankind . After all, both " God " and " Jesus " let mankind decide whether to heed their word and be " Righteous or Not " and warned mankind of certain punishments, if mankind did not choose the right path. But the decision was still mankinds to choose . I believe that if " God ", what ever name he/she is known by, and there are many, had wanted mankind to be totally subserviant to his/her will, he/she would not have given man/woman the ability or choice to choose anything for themselves . I also do not like to partake of discussions or arguments about Religion or Faith either.
Just my thoughts and opinion .
January 19, 2010 at 7:53 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
create (anonymous) says...
The most wonderful comment on religion I've ever heard came this morning during an interview on CNN with an American woman who had been rescued from the rubble of the Haiti earthquake. When asked if her faith has sustained her, she said she was raised Methodist, but after living all over the world as a UN worker, she now believed in all faiths because, "they are all different paths to the same God." You can't top that.
January 19, 2010 at 8:17 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
create (anonymous) says...
methusla, you are amazing. I must say I'm tickled by your "I will not get in on this Big Big Government discussion turned Abortion..." Then about 250 words follow. Don't get insulted now, I'm just tickled, that's all.
Sandman, I don't have a husband to cook for. Lost him many years ago. So that won't interfere with our meeting down at Steve's. However, when I did have a husband -- both my husbands were Marines -- they were very good at taking care of themselves. My next week is open.
January 19, 2010 at 8:29 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
That is a beautiful sentiment create....would that more people would look at it that way.
methusla
I can appreciate your desire not to get into discussions of religion...only fools (like me) should go there. I however don't see the abortion issue as a strictly religious one except to the extent that others make it such. They do so with this argument that life is a gift of God that should always be considered sacred....except in those places like war and capitol punishment where they then chose to grant exemptions to God's gift being sacred. I guess sacred can be applied only where you want it to be applied.
January 19, 2010 at 8:30 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
It's always sad when people deny(call a liar) Christ before men.
John 14:6
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
Matthew 10:33
But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven.
January 19, 2010 at 10:24 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
sandman (anonymous) says...
Meth, I so agree with Create. In the past year or so I have gotten so very much to enjoy you and your posting. I may not always agree but so respect you for your stand as I do many on here. At times you are a ray of sunshine other times the thunder!
"Ole" biscuitboy, you are also included plus goodoleboy. Yes, I could wring your necks at times but feel you probably feel the same about me.
biscuitboy, I stand by my thought on "choices" and what we do with abortion is nothing less then murder. Yes, life is very precious and something to be valued but when one chooses to take a life etc. I also believe in an "eye for an eye". If you want to consider that "religion", then yes, I guess I'm a religious "nut". In fact, I feel "Huntsville" is much to easy on them, hang them from a tree for all the world to see!
Create, next week would be fine, in fact, I have so much cleaning to do with my basement being re-sheetrocked. This gal is having a hard time staying on top of things but she is trying. You pick the evening, would be nice to meet you and hear of your travels. I am so very envious to hear of Hawaii. My husband was stationed there(Army) before we meet and said he hated it and would never go, woe was me!!!!
Must get to a school and read with the kids. All have a good day.
January 19, 2010 at 10:37 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
It makes me glad that I can make people chuckle at times, laugh at me at times and saddens me when I make people angry and get angry at people my self at times, especially when it is not my intention to make them angry or become angry myself. Best of luck to all on this discussion !
I will be leaving the Forum for a while, must get the cleaning done and kitchen floor mopped !
January 19, 2010 at 3:04 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
MadMack (anonymous) says...
Space chicks eh? Like 7 of 9? Or counselor Troy? Always liked the ones from the 60's movies myself.
January 19, 2010 at 8:09 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
- C. P. Snow
January 20, 2010 at 4:21 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
sandman
No offense but I believe I'm more consistent in my thought on this than you may be. I abhor abortion just as a means of birth control,,,,,I see easier and better ways to accomplish it. But since I don't believe it is a life until it can live free of the host unaided by machines, I leave that choice to the mother until approximately the sixth month (that time line can be argued). From then on I believe it is a viable life and it's termination should be strictly controlled by law.....not forbidden, but strictly controlled.
My opposition to capitol punishment then is not inconsistent with my abortion view. I believe the state does have a right (actually more of an obligation) to set parameters on who and how human life can be taken without legal recourse for the taker. War would be a prime example of this.....self defense would be another.....abortion and capitol punishment would be two more.
My opposition to capitol punishment then is not based on the question of taking a life. It is based on the inability of the tribunal system to guarantee to me that it will never be applied to a person that did not commit the crime. Some estimates are that has many as two hundred people in this country have been executed for crimes they did not commit. I believe when the state executes an innocent person that state collectively is as guilty of murder as the most hardened criminal. And that state collectively includes in part you and me.
As to the overall question of the morality of taking a life, I would leave that between you and whatever God you recognize. My morality tells me it is at times a necessary evil, but necessary nonetheless.
January 20, 2010 at 6:45 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
A question
Some anti-abortion people....a few any way.....apparently believe it is alright to take the life of an abortion doctor. They base this on the same logic they do to justify capitol punishment. So if the state won't handle it they tackle it themselves. They claim a moral right to do so.
Other people are morally opposed to war. My question...Would they then have the same moral right to terminate soldiers or the politicians that send them to war?
I think not!
January 20, 2010 at 6:55 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
biscuitboy
That was very " Heady " stuff and just may make some people think a bit more and I agree with what you said.
January 20, 2010 at 8:32 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
methusla
I Thank You Sir! And peace returned again to the land!
January 20, 2010 at 8:35 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
I'm pretty sure that everyone on here came out very strongly against the murder of Dr. Tiller so I don't know who you want to answer your question based on the way it was presented.
Politicians don't commit murder by sending troops to war. Soldiers don't commit murder by following orders or defending themselves. If someone plotted to take the life of a politician or a soldier because they believed they had the moral high ground to do so that would be murder just like it was with the murder of Dr. Tiller. I have a law book with a pretty good definition of murder, here it is "if a (person) acts with premeditation against (a person), to kill him by treachery". This is what we call premeditated murder.
January 20, 2010 at 9:20 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
koalemos (anonymous) says...
If you do it right, you know, really plan it out step-by-step, review the plan, revise the plan and get it right, it won’t be called murder. They might call it an accidental death, suicide, or even a natural death. Then again, if there is no body, there is no case. Being able to hide a body really really good can make the difference between a murder and a missing person. I suggest the cemetery. Nobody looks for dead bodies in a cemetery.
January 20, 2010 at 9:41 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
Actually that's the only place I look for dead bodies....
January 20, 2010 at 11:27 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
On an episode of NCIS (one of very favorite shows), they were hiding bodies on a military bombing range.
Seriouslyfolks
Actually it it was a rhetorical question. I didn't really expect an answer...just wanted people that might think they had a moral right (people like Scott Roeder) to think about the answer. But I never really expected them to think about much of anything.
Your answer was a good one however.
January 20, 2010 at 12:36 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
Thanks biscuit.
January 20, 2010 at 1:08 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
I totally missed the first half of your last post, biscuit. I love NCIS also. I remember that episode. :-)
January 20, 2010 at 1:11 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
sandman (anonymous) says...
open_eyes, I agree with you except today with so many people turning to being cremated and even though, I believe, the law states where you can dispose of those ashes, some, before hand have requested to be "thrown to the wind", in a lake, etc. Reminds me of a question we asked one of our young children when passing a cemetary "How many dead people are in there?" :-)
Biscuitboy, you stated eariler that you didn't pass judgement, are you not passing judgement when you state:"I am more consistent in my thought on this than you may be"?
You also state: "I don't believe it is life until it can live free of the host unaided by machines", please ask create if her daughter was/is a life or not. That is one BIG statement! Now, I present, does the "host" need to be living? My husband was in a hospital (host), in a comma in ICU for thirty days on a breathing machine which was keeping him alive. I knew of his desire for NO artificial methods but I was told it would be a temp. situation, which it was at that time, so I signed.(Power of attorney) Was this wrong? NO! It gave him an additional three years. At the time of his death, I had refused to have him put on a machine after talking with his doctor and having the knowledge that the possiblity of him returning to a "normal" life was not there and also, it was of his desire (wishes). Was I being judge and jury? NO! Even tho, it was extremely hard to carry out HIS wishes and many questions concerning the quality of life he would have if I had done so, I would do the same today in the same situation. With abortion, that fetus(child) is not given a choice, we are taking that away, it has not signed a "power of attorney" for society to decide "who lives and who doesn't"! (I AM speaking of
using abortion mainly as a purpose of "birth control") Does abortion have its place? YOU BET!!! Rape, incest, death of mother, but as I see abortion today, we don't stop and consider these points, if a woman ends up pregnant and not taking the proper steps to prevent and not wanting the child, abort.
I agree concerning capitol punishment.
Concerning your question, did not our Vietnam vets come close when they returned from their tour in the 60"s/70"s?From a duty their government ordered? Thank heavens today, most of society realizes that the soldier is only carrying out the orders they were given. Also, what about the soldiers that have been put on trial for carrying out an "order"? Yes! Lots to debate!!!!
January 20, 2010 at 4:46 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
sandman
I believe I more accurately said...."But I believe I am more consistent in my thought on this than you may be...not that I was. That may sound like nothing more than a semantic argument to you but I said "I believe" to qualify it as my opinion. Belief not backed up by irrefutable facts can never be any thing but opinion. I never intended it however to be casting judgement. You have every bit as much right to your opinion as I do mine.
I absolutely agree with your position on abortion as a means of birth control.....and it's very limited use for other purposes.....but only after the beginning of the third trimester. I could be persuaded to adjust my thinking somewhat as to the timeline with the right persuasion...but not by much. So what we come down to is as always....:WHEN DOES LIFE BEGIN.......
You have your opinion.....I have mine....and I don't suppose the two will ever meet because it boils all the rest of the arguments down to the core issue. In my opinion then...people that feel as you have the right to make the decision not to abort....or to abort and then face your God for what you did. But I don't believe you should have the right to force that same decision on people that don't feel as you do...and especially not during the first two trimesters....when in my mind and morality you are not ending a life because that life has not yet begun. JMO
January 20, 2010 at 6:38 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
sandman (anonymous) says...
Biscuitboy, very nicely stated. Yes, I have my thoughts and you, yours. Have a good evening.
January 20, 2010 at 8:11 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )