Don't cut arts
Jeremy Starr - Emporia
Wednesday, February 24, 2010
I received confirmation recently of cuts for the Emporia Public Schools. Many important areas are being considered for cuts, and I would like to address those proposed for the fine arts.
The fourth- and fifth-grade orchestras are being considered for removal. Having been born and raised in Emporia, my initial orchestral experience came in fourth grade with current high school and fourth-fifth grade orchestra director, Melinda Flohr.
I did not know any of the fourth-grade orchestra members before then and being included early in this homogenous musical ensemble helped boost my confidence and more importantly, helped me directly experience the inspiring and edifying world of orchestra music for the first time. I was hooked from this young age and looked forward to orchestra practice every day from that time forward.
While fourth- and fifth-grade orchestras are essential, other methods to promote the fine arts in the public schools should be encouraged and not discouraged through cutting instrumental positions. If the Emporia instrumental programs continue to grow at their present rate, more classes will result and the reduction of a position can only decrease further opportunity for growth in thriving programs.
The U.S. Department of Education established music and the arts as a “core academic subject” in No Child Left Behind. Budget concerns are important and must be carefully considered.
I suggest a reconsideration to find other avenues to reduce expenditures for the school district; allowing opportunities within the core academic areas to remain intact and not reducing students’ possibilities for education and career development.
Jeremy Starr
Emporia
Chevy_Guy (anonymous) says...
Singing songs and painting pictures in elementary school don't really help you get a job later in life. English, math, and science are what really count. How many Emporians make a living singing songs or painting pictures? How man Emporians make a living using math, science, reading and writing? I know a lot of kids enjoy band, but 99% never take it further than high school.
February 24, 2010 at 10:53 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
Roughly the same thing can be said of sports....so why is that area always sacrosanct? What does interscholastic football for a handful of students gain us that orchestra doesn't....and don't say teamwork. It takes plenty of teamwork to play in a band or orchestra. It also takes less in support and equipment cost. And it sure doesn't take million and a half dollar carpets for vacant lots.
I'm not saying some cuts in the arts might not be necessary....but why is it always the arts? Why is it never the great God of sports?
February 24, 2010 at 11:29 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
justaflushaway (anonymous) says...
And What do you do now Jeremy?
February 24, 2010 at 11:47 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
wildcatnurse (anonymous) says...
Statistics show that children with a musical background...children who play musical instruments...score significantly higher on standardized tests than children without. That is why music is important....it makes you smarter, which makes you score higher on tests, which helps you get scholarships, which helps with college. There are also many kids that get music scholarships, so music can get kids to college that might not go otherwise.
February 24, 2010 at 11:56 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
I agree with biscuitboy and wildcatnurse. I have made sure that there are musical instruments available at home to my kids and I try to teach them what I know which is limited unfortunately. I would hate to see this go by the way side in the schools. Music can be taught to everyone and they will benefit. Sports only benefits a few that are fortunate enough to be big. This is especially true in a large school like EHS where there is a lot of competition to get on the team what ever sport that may be.
February 24, 2010 at 12:35 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
antim (anonymous) says...
Saying that "Singing songs and painting pictures in elementary school don't really help you get a job later in life" is such a simplistic way of assessing this issue. Being involved in band or any other musical/creative/artistic endeavor provides kids with so much more than a possible carrer choice. There are a multitude of skills that need to be learned and developed when one partakes in making music. Among these are self-discipline, motor skills, expression through sound, problem-solving skills, cooperation and collaboration. All of these are essential skills, whether one becomes a musician or chooses a different path. I am hoping that before cutting this area, a better solution will be found.
February 24, 2010 at 12:52 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Chevy_Guy (anonymous) says...
Biscuit
I would cut interscholastic sports before music and art. I agree wildcat that music can raise your intelligence, but that's not the case for everyone. I played the violin up until 6th grade and played the guitar all through high school, and I don't consider myself any more intelligent than someone who has never played an instrument in their life. I would still put P.E. above the arts and interscholastic sports.
Getting rid of some principals would save tons of money. Isn't Emporia High the only school in the state with more than one principal? What justification do they have for needing 5 principals? Why not make band an after school activity? Along with interscholastic sports, and make the teams raise all the money they will need for the year on their own. That should teach them all about teamwork.
February 24, 2010 at 2:53 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
goodoleboy (anonymous) says...
Emporia High was 6A
Emporia High is now 5A
Tell me again why a 5A school needs the administration of a 6A school, especially in these times?
February 24, 2010 at 3:04 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
koalemos (anonymous) says...
The brain has two sides. It is ignorant to only train half.
February 24, 2010 at 3:25 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Chevy_Guy (anonymous) says...
Eliminating the 4 assistant principal jobs would save over $300,000.
Wichita East High School has 2,300 students with one principal.
Emporia High School has 1,600 students with 5 principals.
February 24, 2010 at 3:28 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
My whole assesment of the why there will never be a cut made in any sports funding or Administrative salaries, funding or positions and most of the cuts will be made in teaching, teachers, music and arts, is a simple one.
Have you ever heard of a Sports Jock, a Music Jock, an art/arts Jock, a drama/acting Jock, a stagecraft/set builder/design Jock or a teacher/teaching Jock, a Mechanical Drawing Jock, a Drafting Jock, etc., etc. ?
And has there ever been as large a fan turnout/support for any of the above educational endeavors, as the fan turnout/support connected with a sports activity, not to mention the amount of money spent on all sports, just to say we are the best a beating someone ?
You see it is quite simple, SPORTS, has been the touted as the only thing that can/will bring pride to a school and everything else is just secondary, including what is important, learning /teaching what a child will use the rest of his life, reading, writing, arithmatic and the ability to think for yourself and solve problems, including lifes problems by learning and using reading, writing, arithmatic, which gives you the ability to think and solve problems. The educational things I mentioned earlier, mainly the three R' s will be with you the rest of your life and you will use them the rest of your life.
As for sports ! Your ability to take part in or play sports is a mostly short lived thing and will not last you the rest of your life, especially as you get older .
As for Administration/Administrative salary cuts or position cuts, there will never be any cuts in these areas, as the Administration/Administrative personal are the ones who have the final say on what cuts will be made. And I don' t think that they are going to decide to do anything detrimental to themselves.
February 24, 2010 at 3:33 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
justaflushaway (anonymous) says...
Farmraised, I knew that, just wanted to see how other people would react to the comment
February 24, 2010 at 3:34 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Chevy_Guy (anonymous) says...
justaflushaway
An honest question. What are the rest of the people who were in band class with Jeremy doing now? Was all that money spent training all those kids to play music really worth it since one or maybe two people now have a career in music? I could of been a lot smarter in math or better at debate if I didn't spend so much time playing guitar.
February 24, 2010 at 3:45 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
ChevyGuy...
I agree with your priorities of placing PE ahead of the arts and interscholastic sports. In fact I would priorities them exactly in that order except I would add intramural sports to the list ahead of interscholastic sports.
February 24, 2010 at 3:46 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
eucharistandcannabis (anonymous) says...
@Chevy_Guy: "Singing songs and painting pictures in elementary school don't really help you get a job later in life."
Actually, yes they do, very rewarding and life-fulfilling jobs at that. Unfortunately, these jobs are not found in Emporia.
In Emporia, assembly lines, fast food and Wal-Mart await your resume. Makes me think of the sit-com Roseanne.
February 24, 2010 at 3:46 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
dj2879 (anonymous) says...
I agree with an above comment, albeit sad, it is true that sports gets so much funding because of the higher turnout.
Which is going to be the case unless WE do something to change it. I was in attendance at the first Emporia Community Orchestra concert a few months ago. Jeremy Starr, the conductor, as well as Dr. Comstock, Chair of ESU Music Department, were both in amazement at the sizable turnout and support from the community. It was great to see the community have such pride in music.
I challenge every Gazette reader to this: Let's attend every play, concert, art showing, etc that the schools in Emporia have to offer. Let's overwhelm the administration with our support and attendance, and make these events standing room only so that they need a bigger venue to hold them in. Give up one fast food meal this month and take that five to ten dollars and donate it to the fine art of your choice. If we do our part to show support, then maybe we can help the school systems reconsider the devastating move of cutting fine art funding.
February 24, 2010 at 4:45 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
koalemos (anonymous) says...
methusla What are the three R's?
February 24, 2010 at 4:47 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
reading....righting...and rithmetic....but apparently not spelling....☺☺☺
February 24, 2010 at 5:14 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
educ8r1 (anonymous) says...
You forgot on that resume that Jeremy Starr is also the ex-boyfriend of one of the music teachers that could suffer from budget cuts to the music program! Let's get it all out on the table!
February 24, 2010 at 7:06 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
educ8r1
What in the wide wide world of sports does that have to do with anything?
OU812
February 24, 2010 at 7:15 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
starfire (anonymous) says...
educ8r1:
As a teacher in the USD 253, shouldn't you get your facts straight before you take a guess at other's relations?
I seriously doubt that someone who made music his lifelong career wrote this letter for ulterior motives.
February 24, 2010 at 7:26 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
Spelling ! OOOOOPs. Guess I flunked spelling .
February 24, 2010 at 9:43 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
KellyG (anonymous) says...
Seriously, you have to know that Jeremy is an ex of a teacher in the district, do you even know Jeremy, that has no relevance to this discussion. I was in his class in school and several of our classmates are successful musicians, actors, artists. Some who were in band and orchestra with him, accepted the scholarships in the arts that were awarded to go to college and then went on to become Drs and Lawyers, and teachers. What I find appauling is the fact that the majority of posts are in favor of taking away athletics, I am sorry if it had not been for my golf scholarship to college I would have had to take out loans to finance college. I am now a teacher and unnerved by the fact that everyone is wasting their time bickering about one program over the other. What should happen is write your representative and senators about the education cuts. Because according to Rep Brookens, the view is education is a privilege, sorry it is a federal obligation. I would also extend an invitation to you all that you join several thousand concerned citiziens and teachers in the state on March 16 11:30 am until 2:30 pm at the rally to show that we support educational funding in the state. If we are to prepare our students for the 21st century they need to be well rounded in every aspect. No, not everyone is going to be the star athlete but for some it is what they need to get to college. Others will use the arts and speech, but all benefit the student educationally. Research shows that students who participate in not only the arts but athletics score higher on entrance exams for college and perform better academically in college then their peers who were not involved. Something to think about.
February 24, 2010 at 11 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
Again, I need to ask, when the " PEOPLE ", no longer can afford to pay higher taxes, especially when there are those " PEOPLE " who have lost jobs, what should these " PEOPLE " do ? Take food out of their family' s mouths in order to pay for education, especially when those who over see education demand more, more, more, more money ?
If the money is not there to fund the ever increasing demand for more money for education, cuts will have to happen somewhere and yes, cuts and sacrifices are always painful and not popular . I don' t believe that anyone on this particular forum likes to see cuts have to be made. But the fact is cuts are going to have to be made just the same. There are those who got to go to college on a scholarship and I congratulate them . However there are those who do not get a scholarship and have to get a college education the hard way and that is either get a student loan, spend enough time in the military to pay for college or even harder yet, get a full time job or two and work at those job/jobs as well carry a full academic class load, as well as find the time to study to carry at least a 3.0 or better gpa. Not everyone is fortunate enough to go to college on a scholarship .
All I am saying is, there needs to be some realistic thinking about what is being spent and where and if there are unnecessary and unneeded expenditures.
I believe that most of us saw this economic, fininacial situation coming long ago and it would only be a matter of time before it would hit and take its toll on most everyone.
All I can say is, " May God be with us all and see us all through these trying times " .
February 24, 2010 at 11:49 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
MrCmonkeeDo (anonymous) says...
Well there it is:
"Singing songs and painting pictures in elementary school don't really help you get a job later in life. English, math, and science are what really count. How many Emporians make a living singing songs or painting pictures? How man Emporians make a living using math, science, reading and writing? I know a lot of kids enjoy band, but 99% never take it further than high school."
It's a shame ya chose to write it all out like that;
all black-n-white-n-silly all over.
But that's all right; now doggonnit we've all gone an' writ things we shoulda maybe shouldn't have.
Perhaps you just don't get out that much; dunno.
Oh wait.
You're kidding right?
February 25, 2010 at 2:16 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
KellyG
I'm glad you got a golf scholarship to college so you didn't have to take out loans to finance your eduction. But a lot of students with a less productive club swing do have to take out just such loans. So I guess my question is....why should I as a taxpayer have to support subsidizing an interscholastic golf program so you can get financial aide for your education? Especially if arts and music programs that might help provide financial aide for education to other students probably just as deserving as you were are being cut.
In a perfect world we would not have to worry about cutting either...and all students would get financial aide to continue their educations as far as their intelligence would allow them to go. But we do not live in a perfect world. So I don't understand why it is always the arts and music that end up on the block and never the God athletics. At the very least funding in the two areas should be same-same. Cuts in one taken equally from the other. My guess is at least as many kids take art, band, and orchestra as participate in interscholastic sports....why are they always deemed less important?
And don't tell me its because sports draws more attention. For Gods one and two....football and basketball....that my be true. But golf and cross-country....come on????
February 25, 2010 at 3:22 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
create (anonymous) says...
Practically speaking, here's a question to consider: If the music program is cut, where will you then place all those music students? They are already taking required core classes in Math, English, etc., so now what? Underwater basket weaving or some other useless elective that does nothing more than warehouse students? How will they obtain the number of credits they need to graduate? Will they have to hire more teachers to teach more courses so that music students can obtain credits?
What is the value of music in the child? For one thing, according to Carl Orff, a noted music educator, music contains the basic elements in human development. So, since it's developmental, music becomes the place where the young can cultivate an appreciation for their cultural heritage and the cultures of others as well. That's one thing.
What about the personal discipline that music affords? Do you see your child practicing algebra equations hour after hour like he would if he were to play the piano or violin or saxophone? We are constantly hearing about how the schools need to produce better disciplined students and harder working students. What better place than music?
Ask any student of music about how much personal discipline they learned in music. How much tenacity? How much about the value of hard work?
Oh yeah, I forgot, there's always shooting baskets until zero dark thirty every night. Now there's a life long pursuit.
Oh yeah, again. Music is performance based. What better assessment can you make than a band or orchestra concert where young musicians work together to produce beautiful sounds?
Here's a thought. What would you rather listen to, a beautiful sonata or a basketball bouncing on concrete and twanging off a rim?
Finally, in the horrible aftermath of the earthquake in Haiti, what did her starving people do to find comfort? They sang. In unison, they sang songs of their culture.
On September 11, only hours after the planes hit their marks, what did we Americans do? We sang. We joined our own Congressmen on the capitol steps as they sang, "God Bless America." We blasted Bruce Springsteen's "Born in the USA." We sang along with Lee Greenwood's "God Bless the USA"
We did not listen to bouncing basketballs!
February 25, 2010 at 7:53 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
create.....you go girl!!!
February 25, 2010 at 8:42 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
Cuts are going to have to be made and that is the bottom line.
I just believe that the cuts should be made fairly and equally, from the top to the bottom and in every aspect of positions, salaries, classes, sports, etc., etc., but should be done in and including " ALL " aspects of the aformentioned . If this is done no single aspect will be singled out nor shown favor. This would also include Administration/Administrators/Administration/Administrators assistants, in fact this is where the cuts should start and progress downward from that point. But alas, it seems that cuts never start from the " TOP " .
February 25, 2010 at 9:20 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
HenryVIII (anonymous) says...
I think the title of this article would be funnier with the simple addition of one letter 'F'...
'enry
February 25, 2010 at 9:27 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
It would seem, that those who are at or reside at the " TOP ' are always asking/demanding that those at the middle or bottom do with less, take cuts, but pay more, etc. and yet those at the " TOP " never seem willing to do with less, take cuts, pay more, etc., because, it seems, they believe that they are immune or exempt from having to do what the rest of the world has to do, at times.
February 25, 2010 at 9:28 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
madpoet (anonymous) says...
All kids can do something in the arts. Not all will be Picasso but most kids will be about the same level of skill. The same can not be said of sports. When a kid's in art class, he or she will be working on a project all the time rather than sitting on a bench watching others. I played clarinet for a couple of years in grade school. I took art classes all the way thru high school. I also had the chance to take broadcast journalism. The arts teach you concentration and give you a creative outlet. I can't make a living at art. I was the envy of my biology classmates at ESU on my sketching skills, though. I'm a very well trained amateur at best but firmly believe the arts enriched my school experience. Arts give a place for the "non jock" crowd. Which I would guess is about 80% of students. I would like to see how much money they would actually save by cutting the arts programs. How much would they save by having just 1 assistant principal? I went to a 5A school with ONE principal and ONE vice-principal.
February 25, 2010 at 10:05 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
madpoet
Excellently stated......
February 25, 2010 at 10:18 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
Yes
madpoet, that was an awesome post.
February 25, 2010 at 10:57 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
77flint (anonymous) says...
Arts, Academics, and Sports are equally important.
I won conference art awards and I was one of the top 5 fastest in the same conference. Played football, acted in plays, even played a instrument. Academically, I loved geography and I am multi-ligual by choice.
I was never given a scholarship to do any of these things. Without these opportunities in highschool I would never have known my true potential.
The things that I learned from all of these activities has made a better person, parent and spouse.
February 25, 2010 at 11:11 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
okay (anonymous) says...
It is amazing how so many people make suggestions about situations when they obviously know nothing about the details of the job. Do people really think that Emporia is one of the only high schools that has more than one principal? Do most people really know what it takes run a school? Times have changed and there are many unfunded mandates today that were not required years ago. The assistant principals have specific job duties assigned to them. In some schools these positions may have different names. They may be specific in nature as opposed to assistant principal. Most people would not want, nor could they do a prinicpal's job. What they want is their rate of pay. Those people usually think everyone making more than them are paid too much. These principals have worked hard to get where they are today and most of them continue to work hard every day. The work they do has to be done and one or two people can not do it! For the record, I do not work for the school system but I was involved enough as a parent to know quite a bit about the school system and its operation.
February 25, 2010 at 2:02 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
KellyG (anonymous) says...
Biscuit boy, there are just as many students at EHS and EMS in band and orchestra, as there are in sports. Also if your arguement is true then as a tax payer why should I have to pay for the few that have talent to play an instrument. I am in favor of keeping both because I was also in choir and forensics. I was also in glass blowing, ceramics. My point was why should we cut any of the sports or arts. We need to all rally together not against each other. Because there are arguments on either side of the table. We need to agree that the students are the priority. The best thing to do is let those in Topeka know that all schools need adequate funding and that what is happening is the quality of education is going down. All children you would agree deserve the best. And Topeka's best is not good enough.
I would also like to add just you that unlike Football, Basketball, Volleyball, baseball, softball, track, cross country, wrestling, golf is a sport anyone should know whether you play like the pros or just for recreation it is a sport that one can do for a lifetime and the majority of business deals whether you want to admit it or not take place on the golf course. Just thought you would like to know that.
February 25, 2010 at 2:34 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
reality (anonymous) says...
Majority might be a bit of a stretch.
February 25, 2010 at 2:36 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
reality (anonymous) says...
I agree that while one is probably no more valuable than the other (sports vs. music), my guess would be that more people pay to watch sporting events than a piano recital. Again, I believe that both are important so don't everyone jump to crucify me. But do you consider the lost revenue from sporting events, concessions, etc.?
February 25, 2010 at 2:38 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
create (anonymous) says...
And I retired from teaching only two years ago. I know all about the school system! Don't lump me in your "so many people" basket, okay.
Those assistant principal jobs aren't all that specific and can be integrated. You can't tell me one man can't do the job of two if he is organized and focused enough. It happens all the time in private enterprise. Why not public education? We have specified ourselves into a fiscal tizzy!!!
February 25, 2010 at 2:39 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
brightliner (anonymous) says...
Nice post Okay - these comments are generally pretty sad because most of the posters have little knowledge of what goes on in public schools today. I loved you part about - if someone makes more money than you they are overpaid. So true.These are difficult times, but things will get better. I hope the BOE doesn't throe the baby out with the bathwater. All these program - arts, athletics, Emporians for Drug Awareness etc. are essential to a well rounded education.
February 25, 2010 at 2:53 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Steve_Corbin (anonymous) says...
bightliner,
Do we have your guarantee things will get better?
Can our kids and grandchildren get your guarantee that they won't be paying 80% of their future income for taxes because of our spending? Do you even care?
Like you, I believe the arts and athletics are an essential part of education. (Can't agree on EDA).
The amount of funding is the question being raised here.
We are in an economic downturn , (and it's not over by a long shot)
To not question the funding of our schools and spending of our tax dollars is a luxury we cannot afford.
You say the comments on here are "generally pretty sad".
I think it's sad that the only things the administration can come up with to cut costs are the things that directly affect the students.
On another thread admirred came up with the idea of a 4% across the board pay cut to save 1.4 million. Do you think that is fair?
February 25, 2010 at 3:36 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
giggles (anonymous) says...
Good post Steve.
As for okay, do I really think that Emporia is the only school with more than one principal? No. Have you noticed how some of the posters here have stated that many other schools of equal or larger size have one principal and one vice principal? The point being made is that we feel that in light of that information, we are overpadded in that area. Furthermore, if you or anyone else expects me to foot the bill to keep them, you better be able to give me how and why they are so essential.
"The assistant principals have specific job duties assigned to them. In some schools these positions may have different names. They may be specific in nature as opposed to assistant principal."
This statment is very vague to me. Give me the how's and why's. I may think my own job is essential to my company, but someone else may not agree. Everyone is expendable.
I want my children to have a good education, but I don't think it will take 5 principals to get that job done. My kid's don't come home at night to tell me what they learned from their principals.
"The work they do has to be done and one or two people can not do it!"
What is your basis for this? I am not convinced that we need all of this overhead without substantial information justifying the need.
KellyG, you need to reread biscuitboy's post. He said that cuts should be 50/50. If you cut one you cut the other by the same amount.
I also fail to see how Emporians for Drug Awareness is essential to a good education. I learned from the old egg commercial ( this is your brain, this is your brain on drugs). If you don't understand that or if that doesn't cause you to give pause, then I don't think any other thing is going to be any more effective.
Take a clue from Mr. Mackey...Don't do drugsm mmkay.
February 25, 2010 at 4:23 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
KellyG
I don't think you read my post very well. In fact I specifically agreed that in a perfect world we would be able to support all of the arts music and athletic programs...and finance the children's education as well. My only question then.....as it is now....was why when the world becomes less than perfect it is always the arts and music that come under the gun...never sports. Neither you...nor any one else.....has yet to give me a satisfactory answer other than to speak of spectator attendance for the big two of football and basketball.
You brought up your golf scholarship...I didn't. My question was then.....and remains still...not why you should get one....but why the arts and musically gifted programs be cut thereby denying them the same opportunity.
I agree it would be wonderful if we could all come together and support everything (something else I pointed out in my first post), but I don't see that happening. So in lieu of a miracle, it is my opinion that any cut from arts and music should have a corresponding cut from athletics. Hopefully next time you will read what is said with more objectivity and less defensiveness.
I do agree with you on the value of golf in the business world....it is very important there. But art and culture can be important there also.
February 25, 2010 at 4:32 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
goodoleboy (anonymous) says...
I don't need to have an intricate knowledge of Emporia High, I don't care if they make 9,000, 90,000, or 900,000. The school has downsized, and logic dictates that when an organization downsizes that positions are combined or eliminated. This situation sticks out and exacerbated by the fact that no one cares to explain to we the taxpayer why we are paying a respectable salary for multiple principals when logic tells us that we do not need them. But cutting teachers and custodial staff is perfectly acceptable. Asking for a little transparency from the very people that are employed by us is not out of line. It’s common sense.
February 25, 2010 at 4:58 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
KellyG (anonymous) says...
I did read your post and you jumped with defensiveness as well to my post. I brought up a point by using my scholarship as an example that alot of residents on this post automatically see no value in sports and the answer is that sports need to be cut. I was also saying that neither should be cut. As for the comment you made about coming to together only if there is a miracle is very short sighted as well. If a community can make a district change their mind about cutting athletics and the arts, and busing and a four day school week, then surely the intelligent residents of Emporia can do the same. I remember the community rallying in support of a lawsuit against the ACLU, to continue what is now the Seasonal Celebration, so yes the community could do the same again. The opportunity exsists for all to go rally in Topeka on the 16 show support for adequate funding in KS schools. I apologize for comming across defensive but it was also presented that way to me.
The reason why sports will not be cut like football and basketball is like one previous post pointed out revenue from ticket sales, concessions, etc. Also the argument not that I agree with it would be that with physical activity limited this is way for those who want it can get it. The main argument will be revenue. As for why keep golf and cross country if residents would ask to look at the line items on the budget score card for those sports it would be alot less then the premiere sports of Basketball and Football. I would favor cutting the salary of the coach rather then those sports. Golf and Cross County. They are the cheapest sports. But cut the coaching salaries across the board and assistant coaches. Also I would be in favor of cutting out Freshman and Sophomore competitions, which would also cut coaching salaries. Cut the coaches pay along with assist you would be amazed at how much revenue you gain across the board.
February 25, 2010 at 5:04 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
KellyG
If the attitude of the people of this school district is remotely reflective of the people that post on this forum then I think it will take a miracle indeed....especially if what you are seeking is widespread support for increased funding. I believe the overwhelming attitude of the people posting here is cut--cut--cut.....not fund-fund-fund.
I personally agree that I would like to see increased funding....but I am a 68-year-old man who is soon going to be more of a liability than an asset myself. Because of that I have made the choice to stay out of that part of the discussion because I am not going to be the one to have to pay for this funding increase if it were to occur.
So though I hope the people see it your way.....the reading I get from the street is that they won't. In that case I maintain my original position that if cuts must be made, they should be 50-50 between arts-music and athletics. Exactly where and how those cuts are achieved in either area...I could care less.
As to my getting defensive also.....fair enough...but you did it first....☺☺☺
February 25, 2010 at 5:44 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
I did not mean to single out golf and cross-country as sports especially deserving of being cut. I singled them out as probably the best examples of sports that brought in little return in spectator revenue. I'm sorry you did not interpret it that way.
February 25, 2010 at 6:13 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
The bottom line on this matter is, the people who fund, basically everything, have been asked to fund beyond their ability to continue funding, what seems to be a habit of, continued needless, wasteful, overspending and ever increasing taxes and ever decreasing jobs and ability to provide for themselves and families. If it comes to a choice between funding education or anything and paying higher taxes to do so or keeping food on your family's table or a roof over your family' s head, which will/would you choose to do.
It is my belief that cuts need to start at the top of the ladder instead of the middle or bottom of the ladder .
February 25, 2010 at 8:23 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
oh4theluvof (anonymous) says...
"...most of the posters have little knowledge of what goes on in public schools today."
Yeah, it is really hard for the public to know what goes on in a public school, what with it being all exclusive and stuff. It isn't as if any of us other posters ever, say....went to school at these same schools....or even, say......have kids there now.
"But do you consider the lost revenue from sporting events, concessions, etc.?"
Not, jumping on this poster, but responding to this line of reasoning:
How much revenue DOES sports bring in? Is it enough to pay the staff salaries, field and equipment upkeep, utilities, etc.? I mean, how much are we spending for each dollar that "returns?" Are we spending $100 for every $15 of ticket and concession sales? Is it really worth it? Could we insist that it pay for itself or not be available through schools? Obviously, there are other instances of its successful existence and true talent draws press no matter where it is, causing the agents and scouts to come running for their cut.
I am not dogging on sports any more than some are dogging on the arts, but let's face it. There comes a time when you have to decide that the sampling that the kids get in regular PE and music and art classes will have to suffice in piquing their interests and the kids and their parents might have to privately pursue and fund their "career" from there. The question here is, are we there, or are there other options to look at first?
February 25, 2010 at 10:10 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
oh4theluvof
Hold on to your knickers but......good post and I agree!
February 26, 2010 at 2:49 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
giggles (anonymous) says...
I agree with biscuitboy, very good post oh4theluvof.
February 26, 2010 at 9:39 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
create (anonymous) says...
oh4theluvof,
Yes, terrific post. I would definitely love to see an accounting of ticket sales versus athletics spending, particularly for each sport separately. Show me the money!
Concessions, however, is usually manned by some group like the junior class or some campus organization as a fund-raiser so that shouldn't be included in the accounting.
I'd also like to see an exact job description of each asst. principal. I still say that administration is top heavy and these positions can be combined for the sake of economizing. If each position is in charge of so many kids according to an assigned area of the alphabet, then increase the case load.
Cuts are going to have to be made all over the place, however, not just in admin. So, what biscuit boy says bears repeating here. If the Arts are to be cut, then so should Athletics. No two are more important than the other. Equity makes sense.
Finally, KellyG says, "The opportunity exsists for all to go rally in Topeka on the 16 show support for adequate funding in KS schools."
So, Kelly, how exactly does one get blood from a turnip? There are only so many tax dollars to go around, and many agencies are already going empty-handed.
Standing around with other people making demands is a spoiled child approach. Doing so will not grow the money tree. "I want it so I will scream for it." Wah!
February 26, 2010 at 10:24 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
Thanks giggles and create
What was I trying to tell you KellyG...a miricle....
February 26, 2010 at 10:33 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
KellyG (anonymous) says...
Unfortunately, there has to be adqueate funding for education and all children have the right to the best education. It is a federal obligation, and very few of the citizens on here are in the educational system day in and day out. Federal Government dictates to us teachers that we do certain things in the educational setting but everyone forgets that it requires money. And the simplicity of the posts on here forget that we are all going to have make sacrifices and if that means I have to pay more in taxes, or pay more sales tax then so be it. Because like everyone in education I am sick of our children getting short changed or everyone thinking that education is a privilege. It is not, it is an obligation, and if you want your children to have a better future than we do they are going to have more in the classroom. Because whether you want to believe it or not job opportunities that are going to be out there for our students are technology driven, and that costs money. If you think I make the big bucks no so when I say I will pay trust me i will be sacrificing, just like everyone else. So no it is not playing the spoiled child it is advocating for the ones that have no voice the children, unfortunately a school's budget the majority goes to salaries that includes administration, teachers, cooks, janitors. I have listened and read all of your belly aching and gritchen about how much an administrator makes, I can tell you they have alot more on their plate then any of you realize especially if your simplistic attitudes come marching into their offices day in and day out, not only do they deal with parents, faculty, the district, but students and the issues and behaviors of students today are not the same from even when I was in school. Seriously, make the sacrifice give up a pack cigarettes, a bottle of beer, and pay more in taxes, so that your children are prepared. If I get blasted fine but at least I am willing to fight for a better future for all children. The sad part is that the district my daughter goes to school in had to make a choice between hand sanitizer this fall during the H1N1 outbreak or paper for the rest of the yr, paper was cut in the district there should have never had to been a decision both are a necessity. Education should not always be the first choice, there are other agencies that can be cut deeper. But old simple minded citizens unfortunately dictate to Topeka where they feel the money can and cannot be cut, just remember who has to care for you when you are older it is our children do you want to know they had the best preparation or just average.
February 26, 2010 at 12:56 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
KellyG
If your goal is to drum up support for increased state funding of education then you my friend need more education in how to go about it. I can assure you that your demeaning, accusatory. and often insulting approach is costing you far more support than it is gaining you. In fact if this is part of your job you need to be replaced. And remember, this is coming from a person who supports your goal if not your tactics. If you are losing me...imagine how many people you think you are gaining?
February 26, 2010 at 1:07 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
tbluma (anonymous) says...
KellyG
I agree with bisquit here.
What I would like to ask is this, what makes you more qualified to know what the admin. does or doesn't do than the rest of us tax payers?
It' not real hard to figure out that if a $400K savings could be made by raising class size by a whole 1.5 student (when the average is only 14 to begin with) then it needs to be done.
That's not cutting education that's just utilizing man/woman power. Some one let them get over staffed (IMO) at the teacher level and the admin. level, and now unfortunately some one needs to make cuts.
February 26, 2010 at 1:27 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
KellyG (anonymous) says...
How I am in my job is not the same as it is on here, really go back and read the comments and even some of yours and they are just as demeaning. I am just voicing my opinion. Was it not demeaning to me to have a citizen say that the rally is like a spoiled child, and adding Wah! After it! And if your intentions are true to my cause then you would not encourage or applaud someone for their actions. Really I believe you just like to post on here to stir the pot and you are trully not committed to the cause. Until you walk a mile in my shoes and my career do not judge and I will do the same of you.
February 26, 2010 at 1:31 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
tbluma (anonymous) says...
oh4theluvof
I to agree with you post.
A perfect example of pay to play is the 4H program. These parents and kids foot the bill for all of it.
February 26, 2010 at 1:35 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
Carry on then buddy....you have all the answers. But I'm still going to ask the questions. The one thing that is most obvious to me however is your real motive behind all of this.....keeping your own nest feathered, If not you would not be so defensive. Are you one of the ones on the bubble?
But like I said....carry on!
February 26, 2010 at 1:42 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
My intentions are true to the belief that the education of our children is worthy of all of us making some sacrifices.....to what extent that is being true to your cause is incidental.
February 26, 2010 at 1:44 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
tbluma (anonymous) says...
If my coments about being over staffed are demeaning, then so be it.
I don't believe I'd even posted on this thread until a little while ago. All I asked what what made you more qualified, not demeaning, just asking.
I will have a grandson in school it a couple of years and education is very important to me. I just don't think that we need to spend the amout of money that we have been spending to get it.
February 26, 2010 at 1:50 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
tbluma (anonymous) says...
Bisquit
I think I'll put on a pot of beans. You want to come over and help me stir the pot?
February 26, 2010 at 1:55 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
giggles (anonymous) says...
I find it funny how they keep demanding more money for education, and at one point they got what they sued for, only to have us remain pretty low on the global totem pole. I worked for the school system and left around 2 years ago. I witnessed a dramatic increase in special education while there and before I left. Many of the students, probably did not belong in those spec. ed classes, but they had to be there because they were behind for one reason or another in certain areas. From my experience, it seemed to be a disconnect between students and teachers in understanding the processes of what they were learning. You would think that a large upswing in spec. ed. or learning challenged students would be the first clue that it might not be the students, it might be the teacher, the curriculum or the process of how it is being taught.
For instance, reading. There were many struggling in this area, and the system that teachers are supposed to use now is coding. They would spend weeks on end coding words to somehow make words easier to read. The problem I saw was that the children could code a word, but it did little to help them read in general, and many times just made the process slower.
I see the education system crowding the minds of our children with many concepts at once. That would be fine as long as the children took it all in and were able to apply it all, but I just saw many many children get stuck and unfortunately for them, they would from then on struggle to keep up. Children are expected to take in and absorb more than just the basics at the earliest stages. I guess you can't be left behind as long as everyone else is behind with you though right?
I don't want to throw more money at the problem, I want to revamp the situation. I think that if the whole thing were re-worked, children would perform better, and probably with less money needed.
BTW, my children have a voice through me. They don't need you to say it for them. I say that they are getting shortchanged but not from lack of funds. It is from every so called expert throwing their hat into the ring to promote their view on how and what our children should be taught.
How did we become a nation full of competent well educated adults who went on to create the wealthiest nation in the world if our education back then wasn't good enough? You get the basics from school the rest is up to you. JMO.
February 26, 2010 at 2:34 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
KellyG (anonymous) says...
Not one reader on this board is going to like what I have to say but has to be said, if you are in favor of cutting, teachers, activities ( arts or sports) and refuse to see that the state needs to provide adequate funding then you ultimately you are in favor of declining enrollment. And lack of funding to your district. Why, because the teachers that get cut are young and have young children that if their job were to remain they would stay, however you cut their job they move to find employment elsewhere, you then have cut the activities that students who are in art or athletics have colleges looking at them to fund their further education will leave to continue, that's more students gone and that is additional money cut from the district. This also has an effect on young families that may be considering moving in to the district , they won't, why declining enrollment, which companies and industry won't come in either because their employees with families won't come because of lack of opportunity for their children. Whether you like it or not that is the mentality that is presented. I find it ironic as I walk down the street or sit at a game, the community is first to brag about how the wrestlers have maintained their record in the league, or this sport is going to state or our musicians received a 1 rating at festival (which is the best rating) or how one area student got accepted to the various prestigeous art institutues, but when the residents are asked for extra money they refuse to support it.
As for those who talk about pay to play, at the high school level whether you are in sports or music or art you are paying more then those who are not, and typically their families are paying that amount twice because they are involved outside of the schools. I also hear people commenting that they should do 4-H well the fact is if you refuse to fund the extension office you have cut that opportunity for students as well.
Like I said you want your cake given but refuse to pay for it.
February 26, 2010 at 3:03 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Steve_Corbin (anonymous) says...
kellyG,
Much like the over 1,200 workers in Emporia have had their jobs cut in the last two years. How are these unemployed supposed to pay MORE tax dollars for an "adequate" education.
February 26, 2010 at 3:47 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
oh4theluvof (anonymous) says...
To those who had kind words about my earlier post, thank you and right back at you about the many great points you all have also made.
"And the simplicity of the posts on here forget that we are all going to have make sacrifices...."
"I can tell you they have alot more on their plate then any of you realize especially if your simplistic attitudes come marching into their offices day in and day out,....."
I may be simplistic, but, buddy, you work for ME!!! You and your higher education do not determine what you do and don't do for my kids. I do!!!! Yes, we need to speak to the funding issue and change some of the federal and state requirements of you that are just throwing our money away, but rather than asking the State for more money, I believe we need to be advocating for a better filtration of the money that is already there. Steve posted some numbers earlier about the percentage of the education budget that actually makes it to education and they have been completely ignored on here. I see alot of waste in my son's school that irks me, though, and the teachers seem to be oblivious to it---of course, they are the ones doing it. But when we start looking at people to squeeze, it's always the ones cleaning up after you and the kids and feeding and supervising the kids so you can take a quiet lunch break or have visit time during recess. Yes, I know what goes on.
February 26, 2010 at 4:34 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
giggles (anonymous) says...
EXTRA-CURRICULAR. This means it is not a primary element of your curriculum and not fundamental. It is extra, therefore it stands to reason that sports and music can take some cuts. No we don't want to but sometimes it is a necessary evil.
Furthermore, the only option you see is higher taxes. We give a pay cut as an option, but so far you have dismissed this. I feel since many in the private industry have had to take fewer hours, less pay, or even a total job loss, that it would only seem equitable to have the same on your side also. Socking us with higher taxes would just add insult to injury.
Sure we would like to fund schools to their hearts content, but what we are saying is simply, that we cannot.
Also, it was very insulting to insinuate that we are all self centered cigarette smoking alcoholics. I work for a living. I don't smoke, I don't drink. I don't travel, we don't eat out very often. We don't even have cable t.v. We cannot justify the cost.
I think a lot more can be done before I go stomping at the capital.
February 26, 2010 at 4:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
giggles (anonymous) says...
BTW, when I speak of those in the private industry who have taken those measures just to keep afloat, it isn't just lip service. I am currently working in one of those companies. I have had hours cut and no pay raise. Everyone across the board has either had hours cut, salary cut, or lost their job altogether.
February 26, 2010 at 4:54 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
create (anonymous) says...
Right on, Steve. There is no money. There is no money.
Right on, Giggles, when you say, "I don't want to throw more money at the problem, I want to revamp the situation."
Revamping, not recalculating. Absolutely. More and more money is asked for year after year, yet what do we get for our money? Schools are piling more and more new concepts on top of each other, each requiring more and more resources because somebody along the way has written a book and given the same old process a new name, and some new fangled methodology. Why? The original method worked just fine. Most of today's leaders are the result of the old system.
KellyG, you speak of a shortage of funds for buying hand gel because it was more necessary to buy paper at your child's school. Fine. Let the parents provide the hand gel. Let everyone buy one container of gel and send it to school. They already do that for Kleenex. But as for paper, what about the waste? At one of the elementary schools here in Emporia, a trash container was filled with BOXES of paper -- clean, unused paper, lots of it. What's up with that? I was told it was because the paper didn't fit the new printers. What??? Couldn't they use that paper in art? THEY THREW IT AWAY AND NOW THEY WANT MORE MONEY!!!
That's the kind of thing that boggles the mind and makes me say NO, we don't need to go to Topeka and hold up signs and rattle government's cage for more money. We just need to learn how to cut corners and one place to do that is at the top.
KellyG, I don't disagree that the state needs to provide funding for Education. It's just that NOW is not the time to make these demands because there is no money. There is no money. There is no money. Large scale unemployment has caused fewer taxes to be available for use. On top of that, property tax is going unpaid. As businesses and industry close, the tax base shrinks.
From what magic place do you want the state to get the money?
February 26, 2010 at 4:56 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
tbluma
I love beans...and you already know I love to stir pots....Thanks!
Other than that oh4, giggles Steve, create, tbluma, methusla, You have already covered pretty much anything else I could add so I think I'll just get ready for some beans.
February 26, 2010 at 5:09 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
tbluma (anonymous) says...
kelly
We may refuse to fund the extention office if they ask for more, however I don't believe that is where we're at now, we're talking about the school.
I didn't say we should do 4H, I used it as an example of pay to play.
I'm going to catch hell for this but (frankly dear I don't give a damn) I am sick and tired of people telling me the state,county,city or fed. should pony up with the money. That isn't their money, that's mine, yours and everyone else's.
As long as the government, any government, can tax us without complaint, they will spend it. That is why we have over staffed schools, grants for stupid astro turf, Emporia for drug awareness, etc etc. Where in the hell do you think this money comes from?
Well you said it earlier, now I agree, I'm tired of people standing around with thier hand out whining. It's time the gov. run things like a business and tried to make a little money instead of breaking their bank and our back. We can't spend ourselves into prosperity or tax it there either.
You have tunnel vision period. If 20 teachers can do the same job as 28, if 18 administrator can do the same job as 23 you ought to be at the school board instead of Topeka. You want to pay more taxes, write a check to 253 and give the rest of us a break.
Before you ask me about my qualification ( here it is) my wife is a retired teacher. She never had less than 20/class more times than not 25. Her kids consistantly scored at the top or above state average. That is why I think we're over staffed.
I don't think we need to cut arts,sports or anything else. I just think it needs to be done more efficiently, which is entirely possible.
February 26, 2010 at 6:45 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
KellyG (anonymous) says...
Unfortunately the fact remains that the money can come from increase state sales tax and sorry to say tax increases. that is just fact otherwise there will be more unemployed, because teachers, janitors, secretaries, cooks, and the rest that go to running and educating your children and mine will be out of work. Think about that. Also as for the paper I am sorry your district is throwing away perfectly good paper, because at my daughter'school were already treating it before the cut like gold. As I said my opinion was not going to liked but the truth is said then kiss money for mandated things good bye because your enrollment will decline and with industry unless you are willing to pay for it in taxes. Which should've been doing yrs ago when the state predicted this shortage and choose to ignore it. Otherwise your employer will be paying more in unemployment insurance, and be prepared no business not coming in because of your decling enrollment. So you have all made your choice. Don't complain later. Because of us rural districts in surrounding communities will gladly accept the students that leave because they are committed to art and athletics and we will gladly take the money from the state and federal government that comes with them. Enjoy the bed you have chose to lay in.
February 26, 2010 at 6:51 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
tbluma (anonymous) says...
Kelly
If we don't tax ourselves more, there will be more taxes because people will be out of work.
What world do you live in?
More taxes means less spendable money for everyone but the gov.
Less money means more business closings.
Less buisness means less taxes which means another tax raise. DON'T YOU GET IT?
It's time the gov. learned to do it like the rest of us in the real world.
Don't spend $3 if $1 or $2 will do it. As long as you give it to them they'll spend it. Wake up and smell the roses, if you can afford to breathe after the taxes.
February 26, 2010 at 7:09 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
KellyG (anonymous) says...
Also I work with 30 in a classroom and as an educator today in the schools we are making cuts and first teachers work endlessly beyond the school day, and as for duty free lunch not very often, if that is the case in 253 then yes cuts need to be made but in my rural school that is not the case we are busting our butts above and beyond the call without extra money and we do score in the top of the state. As for checks and money I did my duty of paying them when I was living in emporia, and so did my parents, and the town of Emporia gets my money every week when I buy groceries in sales tax. As for the cuts you are talking about across the board, we sirs that means a teacher wil make less in a yr then you make with overtime in the factories and we will still have to pay for the majority of items that are necessary to give your children an education from own checkbook so instead of blasting me for not making sacrifices I make them everyday and still find it in my heart to give to my students and provide for my family. And no do not assume that my husband is wealthy he works in a 8-5 job in a factory in Emporia as well, teachers once in a while should get a thank you. Because we do more after the day is done for your students then you realize.
February 26, 2010 at 7:15 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
tbluma (anonymous) says...
Finally the truth comes out.
February 26, 2010 at 7:18 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Steve_Corbin (anonymous) says...
In all of this KellyG can't seem to understand it is time for the government to be accountable..
The last post seems to give some insight into her thinking.
Could you be one of those facing a layoff due to school restructuring or closing?
I think so, but I could be wrong.
If this is so I can only say, "Welcome to the real World"
If not true I can only say , "Welcome to the real world"
The days of government employment guaranteeing a life long job, just like in the private sector are over. Nothing in life is certain, and life isn't fair. It is time we all started dealing with it and quit mortgaging our childrens futures with excessive taxes just because we didn't want to deal with the problems at hand. Educational funding is a priority, and it has gone up every year.
Times are hard now and it is time to bite the bullet.
February 26, 2010 at 9:58 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
KellyG (anonymous) says...
Reality is funding the basics in education has gone up and federally mandated programs have increased. My asking for increased funding is not for the extras it is for the essentials that I am required to teach and students are assessed on Math, Reading, History, Science, and in the next 3 yrs technology, all because of No Child Left Behind, the price to provide the "basics" has increased. KS can barely fund the current residents that are unemployed, but you want to increase the number of applicants now. Who will pay then we will. Emporia has lost business and unemployment is high however that is not the district's fault. That is the fault of your local government and yourselves that advocate for no tax breaks or incentives that businesses look for when coming to a town. How is a district supposed to provide the essentals for the students if they have no money and no teachers, because the teachers they had left because you don't want to pay them. Teachers have already taken a cut this year because of earlier cuts. Teachers and staff leave they take students with them. Less students=less $, thanks to the state funding formula. No district wants to lose $, but if you don't pay that is reality. Face the fact that potential families that could increase enrollment won't come in and neither will business. Teachers for years have been asking for an overhaul in education, but unless the federal government gets common sense it isn't going to happen. I ask you what are the teachers to do who decide to stay and take a pay cut pay for their continuing education that they are federally mandated to have in order to keep their license and teach your student. we pay for that out of pocket districts don't. Universities are cutting programs and and raising tution, how are we supposed to do this and provide for families. An increase is needed because the cost of everything has gone up Regardless of being employed or not we have to pay more. I would think twice about telling an educator they went into education because of high income potential or because of job security. We are under constant scrunity, the posts on here are proof. We in education are aware of fiscal responsibilty but we have taken more then enough, there are other programs that can bear bigger burden then what they are currently. Once again don't blame the local educators for the high cost blame the federal government for raising the costs and requiring more of the educational system. Also I live in reality everyday, but I am willing to do more to provide for my thirty students and my own two children when it comes to preparing them for their further education.
February 27, 2010 at 12:44 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
Unfortunately, KelleyG's frustrations and questions about how the education system is going to get by this intact, is exactly the same frustrations and questions being faced all over Emporia, the State, and the Nation at present. Change a few words here and a few words there and what she is saying sounds just like the dinner table conversations of many who have had their hours/wages cut.....had to downsize their small business....laid off valued employees....or been one of the ones to be laid off.
How will we get by?.....this is not fair....we don't deserve this.....what are we going to do know? For KellyG the solution is simple. Get the taxpayers to fork up more of the taxes out of the money they no longer receive (or receive markedly less of) so I can go on with how I want to go on unhindered by things like the fact that many have no more to give. Dig deeper so I don't have to dig any more.
The thing she refuses to see is that the taxpayers she is so willing to unload more of her burden on.....has no taxpayer to go to to help them. Kelly, what you don't see is that we are the bottom of the barrel. We have no place to go recoup the further sacrifice you are so willing for us to make.
What you don't get is that you don't get it. Like Steve so eloquently put it.....Welcome to the real world! The well has gone dry>
February 27, 2010 at 4:15 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
KellyG (anonymous) says...
The fact is we all have to eat, clean our house, buy shoes and clothes for ourselves and our families. Like the governor proposed we all pay more in sales tax for at least the next 36 mo. That way we all can and so will the tourists when they come into our state. So please quit telling me I don't get it because you all don't want to accept it. I get it.
February 27, 2010 at 10:20 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
koalemos (anonymous) says...
Pay more tax so a few overpaid surplus people can keep collecting a paycheck? Why not lower taxes and show the government employees what it is like to ask the government for help. File for unemployment and try to find a job producing something the market demands and quit threatening us with lawsuits over a one sided interpretation of what the law mandates. The law mandates a public education. Reading, Writing, Mathematics, Science and History should be the only publicly financed portion of K-12. Transportation, Meals, Art, Shop, Music and athletics should be user funded. If the parents want their student to participate in elective activities they should pay.
February 27, 2010 at 12:22 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
KellyG (anonymous) says...
The law also mandates that students are to have transportation if they live 2.5 miles or further out, lunch has to be provided if they are in school more than 4 hours a day, and actually just basic music and art are mandated as of 1997, along with so many hours of physical activity a week, that was just mandated a few years ago because of childhood obesity. The art and music was put into effect by President Clinton. Athletics though extra and currently high school students are paying to play and they pay extra fees for shop and art and music right now. As well as paying for the club if they want to be involved, along with orchestra, choir, and band.
February 27, 2010 at 1:05 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
tbluma (anonymous) says...
KellyG
Unfortunately you are right. The gov. has laid a lot of this on us, yet you want to give them more money to keep doing it.
Did your husband get a raise this year?
Will he get one next year if there is a tax increase?
Will he have a job next year if there is a tax increase?
Sure you pay for CEU's out of your pocket, so do a lot of other non-teachers.
I know you put in more than an 8hr. day, so do a lot of other salaried people and business owners.
Yes you probably do more for the kids than a lot of people think, if you are a good teacher. (for purposes of this debate I'll assume you are)
I believe you said you teach at a rural school which indicates to me not 253. There in lies the rub. We're talking about 253.
You said you teach 30 kids. I'm saying that 253 could go to only 16 or 20 and save $700K. Why don't you think they should earn their keep like you?
In last night's gazette a question was asked about why there were no recomendations that cuts be made to admin. in 253. the answer was that the ratio of admintstrators to students was less for 253 than in the peer groups studied. After a little research I find that 253 still spends more on admin than the 4 they were compared to.
Three year average is; Newton $95K,Turner $1.584M, Dodge $1.673M, Liberal $$1.5M and Emporia $1.889M. Why then, if 253 apparently has less admin. do they spend more?
You should be asking all of these questions like us instead of begging for more. So the gov.said let's pay more taxes for the next 36 months. When was the last time you seen a new tax increase disappear?
I still maintain that the $1.4M that 253 needs could be found by, not asking any one to take a pay cut, but by merely getting rid of the excess. Now if you are a good teacher and doing your job in 253, no worries.
And you're right I don't think you get it, if you live in Emporia, pay taxes in Emporia, why don't you want your money spent wisely?
February 27, 2010 at 1:18 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
tbluma (anonymous) says...
Newton should have been $950K.
February 27, 2010 at 1:19 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
oh4theluvof (anonymous) says...
Biscuit, you are dead on.
Kelly, your logic is like a cartoon roller coaster that can jump from one track to an entirely different one in the middle of a loop-the-loop. Meanwhile, you think you stayed on the same one. Your second sentence (which is very hard to decipher into the three or four that it should be) is where a lot of the trouble in this conversation is. Like you, we are trying to fund the basics, but, unlike you, by cutting non-basics. You are trying to keep it all; we are saying, we can't. For the most part, people on here have avoided advising that teacher pay take a cut, but it has been mentioned. I personally don't want them to take a cut if we can cut admin and non-academic programs. Why? Because I know that their health insurance deductible is $1,000, so I don't count their benefits. However, if we are to cut 5 admin positions and some programs that pay people to instruct them, then yes, we are adding to the pool of unemployed. However, where you think that the teachers and the funding their kids bring in will only draw industry, I disagree. Industry leaders will recognize educational inefficiency and say, "No Way!! I will not send my kids to school there. Look for a different town to build in." Not to mention, that the funding that a teacher's kids bring in does not offset the teacher's salary and classroom funding/program costs. See, that's where you think that they are on different ends of the equation, but the cost for both comes from our taxes, making the district funding per student a fractional return---not a profit. So, when I say they don't offset each other, I'm talking in terms of a return......meaning an investment loss. Now, seeing that it is education that we are talking about, investment is required, so it is up to us to determine where the risk line is drawn. We have to absorb a certain amount of loss because of the unpredictability of humanity. We have to spend in an attempt to educate some who are going to end up incarcerated in the penal system as well as many who will choose to just live on welfare and not contribute. Those are tax losses, but they are necessary ones. So, we need to carefully determine every other loss to make sure that we aren't just haphazardly throwing money away in the name of education. If we do that, then we aren't diligently seeing to the educational needs of our children. Which brings us back around to the concept of funding the basics on a limited budget. And, as others here have said, if we have lost students and district funding, we need to cut things down to match our current enrollment. If we get more students, then we can increase our staffing and programs again.
February 27, 2010 at 1:22 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
tbluma (anonymous) says...
oh4theluvof
Good post, especially the part about new industry notices inefficiencies in local,county and state spending. KellyG this also means over spending to get results.
February 27, 2010 at 1:30 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
koalemos (anonymous) says...
The law also allows parents to home school their children. Taxpayers will either continue to cave into the demands of the education industry or they can boycott public education by keeping their children home for a couple of years and allow the bloated beast to starve.
February 27, 2010 at 1:31 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
tbluma (anonymous) says...
koalemos
There is only one thing wrong with your statement and I'm not against home schooling.
Even though we might home school the taxes go on and the district still ends up with less money.
February 27, 2010 at 1:40 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
koalemos (anonymous) says...
Not to mention all of the households where both parents have to work full time jobs just to make ends meet. They count on public schools for free daycare services.
I'm not against public education and I really don't want to come off as someone with a grudge against teachers. It just upsets me to hear people in government talk about what the government requires. KellyG is correct. We are required to provide transportation and we as taxpayers spend a lot of money for transportation. We have transportation for every public school district transportation for every government entity and general public transportation. We also pay transportation costs for home and community based support of disabled and elderly persons. In short, we taxpayers foot the bill for five or more separate transportation systems none interconnected. The private sector would streamline transportation costs to effect reliable transportation for everyone and eliminate the duplicate expenses as a matter of good business. Government cannot do this because each department decries the need of their own autonomous fleet. Since the government just has to spend money with no need to earn a profit or even show a savings, the government will continue to waste our money.
February 27, 2010 at 2 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Steve_Corbin (anonymous) says...
I sure hope when the tv crews cover the demonstration in Topeka March 16th, (during spring break) of people demanding more money for education, they take a poll of those people to see how many are teachers and administrators. I hope they also check to make sure not one school district in the state of Kansas provided any funds or transportation to the protesters.
Don't get me wrong it is everyones right to protest the decisions of their government. I just don't want tax dollars being spent to do it. And I want to know who is protesting what and why.
February 27, 2010 at 3:49 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Steve_Corbin (anonymous) says...
Hell I'm thinking about going up to counter protest.
February 27, 2010 at 3:50 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
oh4theluvof (anonymous) says...
Thanks, tbluma. You made some great points in your post too. You posted while I was typing or I would've said so in my last post. I also believe you are right about the taxes just switching hands to different entities if it isn't needed for education. Whenever I home-school my kids, it isn't to teach the government a thing or two....it is just to teach my kids and see that it's a good education. The government wouldn't see it as a lesson taught anyway.
Steve, I share your sentiment.
February 27, 2010 at 5:38 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
Here is part of a statement by KellyG, " Reality is funding the basics in education " and I agree with Kelly, but only if we were talking about funding the basics of education . The problem is and has been that school boards, school administrators have insisted that the taxpayers fund not only the basics of education but also fund the exhorbitant, needless spending that has nothing to do with basic education . This is resulting in the " bleeding of the taxpayers " to death.
February 28, 2010 at 1:28 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
create (anonymous) says...
Kelly, I'm having a difficult time reading through your posts because so many of your ideas are running into each other. Already, you have begun to argue with yourself. You say you are a teacher.
It took many of your posts for me to read between the lines to see that you are apparently against No Child Left Behind. That's it, isn't it?
NCLB is all about accountability, of teachers as well as students. It takes no money to link your curriculum with state standards, no money at all, Just a small amount of extra work and a good sense of organization is all it takes.
In the beginning, teachers screamed loud and clear because they thought they were going to have to drop what they were doing and start teaching something new. Some teachers who had old, old, old lesson plans were afraid they might have to chuck it all and start anew. Not true. Some teachers who weren't doing enough to begin with had reason to be afraid. Suddenly, test scores were going to reflect that they weren't doing what was expected of them. Of course they were afraid.
When I first began teaching, I taught grades 7, 8 and 9. Later, when a teacher quit, I taught grades 10, 11, and 12. I had teachers in larger schools tell me they would never be able to handle three grades at once. I never understood that. I wondered why.
It was no more work for me to adopt my lesson plans to the new state standards because my own objectives had always been very nearly exactly the same.
Suddenly, I was informed, I was responsible for three major areas: English language, Literature, and Reading. Wasn't I always?
No problem. I went to the state web site, obtained a complete list of state standards for those areas and put them on a disk. From then on, I could cut and paste those standards right into my regular lesson plans. It was like a map. It was great! I didn't need to spend for anything other than the disk.
Others complained that there wasn't enough money for resources for the new stuff to be covered. What new stuff? It has always been there. You just have to use the resources you have and what is in your own head.
If I could do it for three grades at once, why can't others? BTW, my kids always scored well above average on state assessments and we even earned the governor's award for excellence the last year I was there. I rest on my laurels and on this point -- educators need to learn how to make more responsible use of the funding they have.
February 28, 2010 at 9:18 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
create (anonymous) says...
Yes, Yes, Yes, I know that in the larger schools, numbers of students would make it less logical for teachers to teach more than one grade. Still, my point remains the same. There is no reason not to expect educators to lace up their boots more tightly and do more than one thing. And that means everyone from custodians to administrators at the board office. They must find ways to do their jobs more efficiently in the face of budget cuts, not whine for more money.
February 28, 2010 at 10:04 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Steve_Corbin (anonymous) says...
create, No argument from most on here.
Well maybe kellyG?
February 28, 2010 at 11:21 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
sandman (anonymous) says...
create, super post, both. I so feel the federal government is way over its head in our educational system. The amount of paperwork that is required today, not only in teaching but also other fields. Why has this paperwork taken such a strong hold? because of being sued and covering our backside. Yes, some of it IS necessary but overall I have my doubts. Does it make for "stronger" teaching? No! Also, for my years involved with teaching I have always been amazed that education seems to be the first to "jump" on a bandwagon of something new, "New" Math ex, and our youth have a hard time counting back change. English, knowing parts of speech and how to diagram a sentence (most of our youth don't have a clue what that is). Are these faults of our teachers? NO! They are instructed as to WHAT they will teach and how. The public needs so to be aware that as a "teacher" you don't "pick and choose". Also, that sometimes "the old way" is very productive. Am so afraid that "our governement" has lead us astray in so many,many areas and those making the rules haven't been in a classroom at all or for 20 years and not fully aware of the "classroom" in todays world. I've said for years that each administrator should be back in the classroom every five years for one year to get the "feel" of todays school and problems.
February 28, 2010 at 3:27 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
oh4theluvof (anonymous) says...
Excellent posts, create. I do think that some of the government requirements of our educational system are extravagant, but I'm never sure which ones. I have heard so much negativity about NCLB that I have questioned it many times. It is good to hear the perspective of someone with life experience and coping skills outlining it. I am sure that there are some illegitimate demands on teachers by government regulations that we need to look at, but I would like to hear a common sense approach to the analysis of each. I have come to distrust most teachers I know, in this regard, as most of them are just regurgitating the biased data and theories that they were just pumped full of in college. Most of them do not have much life experience, teaching experience or even kids of their own. I am finding that as a general rule, I trust the perspective of teachers who had been raising kids for more than eight years before they even began their teaching degree. This isn't a hard and fast rule, but it is a common observation in my world. I want to hear more from them about which regulations are a waste of our teaching resources. Then, if I protest the legislation about anything, it will be about changing those truly wasteful regulations to increase funding.
February 28, 2010 at 7:44 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
tbluma (anonymous) says...
Create and oh4theluv
I think you 2 and my wife (who is a retired teacher) would be naturals for the PBB.
The only problem is the wife really don't get into this kind of stuff. But I would really be interested in what the 3 of you would come up with.
March 3, 2010 at 8:52 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
tbluma (anonymous) says...
Excuse me please.
I didn't mean to leave you out sandman
March 3, 2010 at 9:16 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )