krazykansan (anonymous) says...

A "seasonal Celebration" and what season would that be? Surely you are not talking about the celebration of Jesus Christ birthday!

Has the ACLU got all you people running scared? Yup, I'd say so!

To bad that the birthday of Christ has become a "seasonal celebration".

December 13, 2010 at 2:28 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

emporiahelper (anonymous) says...

I agree. Isnt the holiday which is one the calender called Christmas???? hmmm A bummer that we cant call it by its real name.

December 13, 2010 at 2:59 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

johncanyon (anonymous) says...

The "Seasonal Celebration" came first.
The middle of winter has long been a time of celebration around the world. Centuries before the arrival of the man called Jesus, early Europeans celebrated light and birth in the darkest days of winter. Many peoples rejoiced during the winter solstice, when the worst of the winter was behind them and they could look forward to longer days and extended hours of sunlight.
Jesus' B-Day was not celebrated until sometime during the 4th century.

December 13, 2010 at 3:08 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

open_eyes (anonymous) says...

I rejoice on many different days, for many different occasions. I'm sure somewhere, somebody, for some reason, was rejoicing and celebrating on the 4th of July just for having a good wheat harvest or a mild summer long, long before it every became Independence Day.

When is National Potato Week again? I need to party! :-)

December 13, 2010 at 3:12 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

open_eyes (anonymous) says...

Since when has Dec 21st (winter solstice - meaning days start getting longer) ever signified that the "worst of winter was behind us"???? I never thought the "worst" really hit till Jan/Feb......

December 13, 2010 at 3:14 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

HenryVIII (anonymous) says...

krazykansan and emporiahelper,
Where did you get your calendars? Probably at your church or something...
Mine calendar is obviously more inclusive and tolerant because has all sorts of different holidays listed in December!

You claim that the city is "scared" to call it a Christmas Celebration. Did you ever consider that they don't even want to call it that? It seems to me that they're doing their civic duty by including all faiths in the seasonal celebration and not just the particular one you're fond of.

Way to not be scared of those crazy Christians, city! Good job representing everyone and not just a particular sect! Don't bow to the Christians' war on freedom! If they had it their way, we'd all be forced to go to church on Sunday and not be able to buy/sell booze on Sunday! Oh no! They've already taken the Sunday Sales right from us! Please, city, stop these rights-robbing Christians before it's too late!

This season, celebrate reason.
Merry Xmas!
'enry

December 13, 2010 at 3:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

The Winter Solstice did not signify that the worst of the winter was over.....but it did mark the lengthening of the days bringing the renewed promise of spring and warmer weather. And as such was the center of a seasonal celebration......long before the birth of Jesus.

But today very few are celebrating the winter solstice. Today the entire world knows what Dec. 25th is celebrated as......The birth of the Christian Jesus Christ.. So since virtually every person on earth knows what the celebration is for I don't understand why we have to go through this whole thing all over again every year when the Emporia Public Schools announces it's annual Seasonal Celebration.

It's official name is Seasonal Celebration. There are legal reasons for calling it that. If that works for you fine....If it doesn't call it the Christmas Program. But both sides need to just get over it.

December 13, 2010 at 3:43 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

krazykansan (anonymous) says...

If I remember right, and correct me if I am wrong, Joke Joke! It use to be called Emporia area school district "Christmas Program" UNTIL the frriggin ACLU said hell no, no you can't call it that anymore.

That is my point, F the ACLU. Call it whatever they want, but not because some far left organization dictates it.

Amen and pass the Jesus Christ! I'll take
a double helping, thank you!

December 13, 2010 at 4:16 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

HenryVIII (anonymous) says...

krazykansan,
The ACLU protects YOUR freedom of religion too. How would you like it if your kid was forced to participate in a "Hanukkah Program"? You probably wouldn't like it much, eh? Good thing the ACLU is there to have them change it to a "Seasonal Celebration" instead.

I'm sure you'll come back with some excuse about how that's completely different, but you only THINK that because that is what your church has brainwashed you to believe. Your beliefs don't outrank the beliefs of everyone else and you don't deserve special treatment.

Happy Kwanzaa!
'enry

December 13, 2010 at 4:31 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

rabblerouser (anonymous) says...

It's not a seasonal celebration tree. It's not a happy holiday tree. What do you and your's put up at your house? Don't know about you all, but we put up a "Christmas Tree". And we also say " MERRY CHRISTMAS"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

December 13, 2010 at 4:54 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

rabblerouser (anonymous) says...

Pass this on to your church, co-workers, family,
> and friends. What do you have to lose but 44 cents, what do you have to
> gain ----------- more than you will ever know.
>
> What a clever idea! Yes, Christmas cards. This is
> coming early so that you can get ready to include an important address to
> your list.
>
>Want to have some fun this CHRISTMAS?
>
>Send the ACLU a CHRISTMAS CARD this year.
>
> As they are working so very hard to get rid of the
> CHRISTMAS part of this holiday, we should all send them a nice, card to
> brighten up their dark, sad, little world. Make sure it says "Merry
> Christmas" on it.
>
> Here's the address, just don't be rude or crude:
>
> ACLU
> 125 Broad Street , 18th Floor
> New York , NY 10004
>
>Two tons of Christmas cards would freeze their
> operations because they wouldn't know if any were regular mail containing
> contributions. So spend 44 cents and tell the ACLU to leave Christmas alone.
> Also tell them that there is no such thing as a
>
> " Holiday Tree". It's always been called a
> CHRISTMAS TREE!
>
> And pass this on to your email lists. We really
> want to communicate with the ACLU! They really DESERVE us!!
>
> For those of you who aren't aware of them, the
> ACLU, (the American Civil Liberties Union) is the one suing the U.S.
> Government to take God, Christmas or anything religious away from us. They
> represent the atheists and others in this war. Help put Christ back in Christmas!
Jesus Never Fails IN GOD WE TRUST

December 13, 2010 at 4:59 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

HenryVIII (anonymous) says...

rabblerouser,
Save your time and your 44 cents. Don't believe every email you are forwarded.
http://www.snopes.com/politics/christ...
(sorry, site has some pop-ups)

From the ACLU's site:
http://www.aclu.org/religion-belief/h...

FYI: We don't put up a tree, but our kids still go to the public schools.
'enry

December 13, 2010 at 5:07 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

create (anonymous) says...

Well rabble, you're appealing to my rebellious heart.

open_eyes, it's a little late for National Potato day which is on October 27. Let's plan on next year and do the mashed potatoes in some Idaho field of 'em. We'll tell 'em we're from Kansas and they'll understand our great need to be out standing in their fields.

That didn't work, did it?

Oh well, Mele Kalikimaka anyway.

December 13, 2010 at 5:11 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

ksnewsie (anonymous) says...

Ya know, I think I will send the ACLU a Christmas card to thank them for being a champion of the Constitution and the rights of everyone, not just Christians.

December 13, 2010 at 5:59 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Steve_Corbin (anonymous) says...

What the heck difference does it make what it's called?

Beautiful music by local kids who have practiced their hearts out. 75 Years of being done, always tastefully, and so majestic, no matter what it was called.

The posters on here need to make it down there Wed. or Thur night. .

Good job to all involved in this "beautiful program"

December 13, 2010 at 6:33 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

REWBA (anonymous) says...

I think it is clear that a majority of the people who scream about the winter holiday not being called "Christmas" are the same people who complain about the automated telephone attendant that informs: "for Spanish press two".

These are people found at the tea party meetings more often that they are found in church. Something for the simple folk to beach about. Just imagine how many illegal alien children will be visited by Santa Claus. They aren't supposed to be here but Santa will deliver their Christmas presents here anyway. There aught to be a law!

Happy Yuletide!

December 13, 2010 at 7:35 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Spartanette (anonymous) says...

Not here to add to the debate...just wanting to know if anyone has the recording from around 1977, 1978 that was made of the Christmas program? I believe it was a 2 record set. If anyone has one they would like to sell for a reasonable price I'd be interested. Thanks.

December 13, 2010 at 9:50 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

alfalfa (anonymous) says...

The Emporia school system doesn't want to step on the toes of all those who celebrate Festivus.

December 13, 2010 at 10:21 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

open_eyes (anonymous) says...

Create..... is there a National Basil Day/Week/Month? :-)

To all the Scrooges here...... if someone comes up to you & wishes you a Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukah, Merry Kwanzaa, Happy Ramadan, or anything else.....

Just tell them Bah Humbug.

December 13, 2010 at 10:42 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

open_eyes (anonymous) says...

From America.gov: An Overview of U.S. Holidays....

http://www.america.gov/st/peopleplace...

"The United States, like other nations, sets aside a number of days each year to commemorate events, people or public occasions. These holidays typically are marked by a general suspension of work and business activity, and by public and/or religious ceremonies.

Technically, the United States does not celebrate national holidays, but Congress has designated 10 “legal public holidays,” during which most federal institutions are closed and most federal employees are excused from work. Although the individual states and private businesses are not required to observe these, in practice all states, and nearly all employers, observe the majority of them........

• Christmas Day (December 25)

Most Christians celebrate the birth of Jesus of Nazareth on December 25. Before the 19th century, many Americans worked on Christmas, but in the industrial era the holiday also began to honor universal values such as home, children and family life, and to incorporate secular customs like exchanging gifts and cards, and the decoration of evergreen trees. Congress proclaimed Christmas a federal holiday in 1870. In 1999, a federal court acknowledged the secular aspects of Christmas in rejecting a claim that the holiday impermissibly endorsed and furthered a particular religious belief."

............................

Notice it says individuals & private businesses are NOT REQUIRED to observe these...... so once again.... just tell those who wish you Merry Christmas "Bah, Humbug"....... and be done with it.

December 13, 2010 at 10:47 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

'enry

Your link was very good and informative but I doubt will be read by the ones that need to hear it and it damned sure wouldn't be believed. This is an organized campaign that gets fired up every year that's primary purpose is to keep the "true believers" convinced that Christmas is somehow under attack.......Why? Not because it is true, but because it keeps the cards and letters and especially the donations pouring into the organizations that are allegedly defending against this heathen onslaught.

Thanks for the link anyway.

To everyone that celebrates Christmas....which includes me.....I hope you all have a very Merry Christmas....... And I hope you all go join with those that don't in enjoying the Seasonal Celebration that the school children and school staff have worked so hard on for you.

December 14, 2010 at 6:12 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

REWBA (anonymous) says...

open_eyes, We also get a federal holiday for Washington's Birthday but a bunch of Lincoln lovers started complaining and the next thing you know, we call it Presidents Day.

Don't even get me started on Columbus Day or Martin Luther King Day.

Everyone who has ever been active duty military knows that from 20 Dec through 3 Jan you can't get anything done cause of the "HOLIDAY SCHEDULE". The Puerto Rican's and people like me get until Jan 6 due to the Epiphany.

Joyeux Noël!

December 14, 2010 at 7:28 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Steve_Corbin (anonymous) says...

THIS ONE IS FOR YOU BISCUITBOY !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTRRvD...

MERRY CHRISTMAS

December 14, 2010 at 7:34 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

That was great! Thanks Steve. The one in the upper left corner on the four shot reminds of me of Jackie just in the face. Of course Jackie is about two axe handles broad......:>)

ChevyGuy

This is a cross-thread post because I had said I was not posting anymore on the original thread.

I would love to be able to take that Doberman into my home (just as a dog)....but my resources are taxed by the two I already have.

December 14, 2010 at 8:03 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Chevy_Guy (anonymous) says...

Doesn't the entire story of Jesus come from the winter solstice? The sun stays low in the same position for 3 days, and then it starts to come back up that is Christmas? Jesus died and was buried for 3 days, then the "son" rose again.

December 14, 2010 at 8:30 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

HenryVIII (anonymous) says...

biscuitboy,
You're right. The people we're dealing with here are proud members of the "Party of Fear". That's how the Tea Party drums up support and that's how organized religion gets support. Apparently, inducing fear and promoting hate is an effective strategy for recruiting the simple-minded to your cause.

rabblerouser's posts are typical to the Party of Fear. That's exactly why I don't like organized religion. A bunch of Chicken Littles running around shouting the sky is falling and we're all going to hell unless we do as they say. Sorry, pal, but I looked into it. The sky isn't falling any time soon, so there's no need to get all worked up. Maybe you should do some research of your own and not just follow every random email or sermon you are given? No? Well, it was worth a shot.

Chevy_Guy,
Who knows? It's all folklore and fairytales no matter where it came from.
'enry

December 14, 2010 at 8:36 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

methusla (anonymous) says...

Well, all I have to say is, I began my participation in the Emporia " CHRISTMAS PROGRAM " in 1948 and participated in it every year until I graduated from EHS in 1960 and I can truthfully say it is one of my lifes" experiences that I will always remember with much fondness !

December 14, 2010 at 9:03 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

'enry

Fear is a powerful motivator in both religion and politics.Not only is it very effective at keeping the faithful in line....obedient and unquestioning. It also makes them oh so willing to keep the purse strings open to donate frequently and well to supporting the good fight against the evil threat.

But it works just as well to motivate those on the other side of the political spectrum as well as those that would see a threat to logic and reason coming from every church door.

So to paint all Christians as both practitioners and victims of fear mongering is no more fair than painting all non-believers as hating those that do believe......jmo

I don't hate anybody.....except pedophiles and people that fight animals for sport.

December 14, 2010 at 9:06 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

lets_get_reasonable (anonymous) says...

Steve has hit the nail on the head - those kids work hard memorizing those songs, sometimes even in other languages, and sometimes even using sign language! We should appreciate it no matter what it's called. Those of you who want to argue that it should be the Christmas program need to get a clue - this nation, this state, and this city are full of all types of religions. There is no reason why we cannot celebrate ALL of the holidays and beliefs of ALL cultures. In case you haven't noticed, the program's message to everyone each year is PEACE ON EARTH.

December 14, 2010 at 9:06 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

open_eyes (anonymous) says...

Biscuitboy.... your last paragraph at 6:12 said it about as good as can be said.

Henry, when it comes to rabble-rousing, spewing your own version of "dislike", etc, your posts on this subject usually top the list. Takes one to know one, I guess. Merry Christmas to you anyway and bah humbug back to me I guess ;-)

December 14, 2010 at 9:10 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

I had a very similar experience in a very similar time frame methusla.....and they are fond memories. But to the kids that work on and participate in it today my guess is the feelings and memories will be just as fond for them even though the name has changed.

The memories are because of the experience....not because of what it was called. More people should look at it that way today.

December 14, 2010 at 9:13 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

dml (anonymous) says...

Here is a webpage that should get Henry's blood pressure up: http://www.aclj.org/Issues/Resources/...

It has links to 6 documents that explain everyone's legal rights regarding celebrating Christmas and they are footnoted with the Court decisions.

Merry Christmas!

December 14, 2010 at 9:26 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

HenryVIII (anonymous) says...

dml,
Yes, that does raise my blood pressure...
The ACLJ is obviously slanted to promote only the Christian faith. The act like they support freedom of all religions, but they really only promote and protect Christianity. The ACLU, on the other hand, DOES support the freedom of all religions. It seems to me that the ACLJ is trying to be a Christian-only knock-off of the ACLU.

I also notice that all those letters begin with "Merry Christmas". If they were really about ALL religions, why would they site a particular one? Another issue I have with them is in their About Us page:
"The ACLJ is specifically dedicated to the ideal that religious freedom and freedom of speech are inalienable, God-given rights."
What's this "God-given" part all about? How can a group that is supposedly about law and justice fall-back on crediting freedoms to god? Could they provide a reference that proves god gave us these freedoms? As far as I know, it was the constitution that gave us these freedoms. (not some god)

Happy Holidays to all! (including, but not limited to, Christians)
'enry

December 14, 2010 at 9:49 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

methusla (anonymous) says...

There is something about all of this debate about Christianity, Religion, Christmas, etc. that has always puzzled me and I have never had a reasonable answer for it !

I am not trying to start another argument or debate nor trying to upset or anger anyone ! But just asking for thoughts and perhaps causing some stimulation of brain cells and thought and if I cause any argument, anger or animosity, by doing so, then I sicerely appologize !

Does anyone have a reasonable explaination as to why, when it comes to dates and history, everything that has to do with dates and history is stated as either a certain date/year B.C. and a certain year/date as A.D. ? I already know that the term B.C. denotes everthing that took place before the time of Christ and everything that took place after the time of Christ is denoted as A.D. , but in that sense exactly what/how is everything that took place during the time of Christs' birth and during the time Christ lived, which was said to span 32 years, how was this time period denoted/identified ?

Was it denoted as year 0 to year 32 Y.O.O.L (Year Of Our Lord ) and if so, Why ?

December 14, 2010 at 10:32 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

HenryVIII (anonymous) says...

methusla,
A.D. (anno domini) means "in the year of our lord" in Latin, so I guess it became A.D. on the day of his alleged birth.

Of course they didn't address the BC/AD thing in the Bible, so it's just something Christians concocted centuries later and then forced everyone else to abide by. In fact, I've heard that they got this Jesus character's birthday wrong originally, so he wasn't actually born on 0 AD. Like everything religion-related, I guess we'll just stick with it even though it makes entirely no sense.
'enry

December 14, 2010 at 10:40 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

dml (anonymous) says...

Re: God Given Rights

I guess the Declaration of Independence also gives you heartburn, Henry!

Merry Christmas!

December 14, 2010 at 10:54 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

If you want an overview of this whole calendar thing try reading through this link....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregoria...

Now I realize that wikipedia is not the definitive source of information.....was in fact informed by one know-it-all poster that it was not accepted by any university.......but it will give you a good overview of just how complex and skewed this whole calendar thing is Our calendar has been messed with so many times no date has too much real relevance to anything. And that especially applies to religious dates, as the Catholic Church repeatedly made adjustments so the calendar would fit better with religious dogma.

December 14, 2010 at 11:13 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

HenryVIII (anonymous) says...

dml,
Not really. All the Declaration of Independence was saying is that we are a self-aware, cognitive species that possess free will. As such, we should be able to do as we please. The reason why it states something like "laws of nature and nature's god" is because we don't know how we came to possess free will. It's still unexplainable at this time, yet we know we possess it. They had to state this in a vague way to get the point across without really knowing the answer to why we have these "rights".

I have the ability to kill another human. Does that mean god gave me that ability and therefore the right to do so? Wouldn't killing others be a "god given right" then? Just because you have the ability to do something doesn't mean god gave it to you and it certainly doesn't mean it's a right.

My point is that people overuse "god given right". How do we know what is given by god? How do we know what is a "right" and not just a capability we've evolved to possess?

Plus, the Declaration of Independence was created before the Constitution and before we were a country. Therefore, it isn't really a national document. I can see how using "god" or a "divine influence" in such a document would be beneficial for building support for your cause. After all, we already covered how such concepts are used to sway the simple minded. I can see it now... "Just tell 'em we have god on our side and they'll surely fight the red coats for us! That'll stir-up some support!" When you need something done, just claim you have a higher power on your side and the simpletons will follow. That's how religion works and the founding fathers were smart enough to recognize that even though most of them didn't believe in the Christian god. Might as well exploit it if you can; I don't blame them.
'enry

December 14, 2010 at 11:47 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

karmadog (anonymous) says...

From the movie American President...

For the record, yes, I am a card-carrying member of the ACLU, but the more important question is "Why aren't you, Bob?" Now this is an organization whose sole purpose is to defend the Bill of Rights, so it naturally begs the question, why would a senator, his party's most powerful spokesman and a candidate for President, choose to reject upholding the constitution? Now if you can answer that question, folks, then you're smarter than I am, because I didn't understand it until a few hours ago.

America isn't easy. America is advanced citizenship. You've gotta want it bad, 'cause it's gonna put up a fight. It's gonna say, "You want free speech? Let's see you acknowledge a man whose words make your blood boil, who's standing center stage and advocating at the top of his lungs that which you would spend a lifetime opposing at the top of yours." You want to claim this land as the land of the free? Then the symbol of your country cannot just be a flag. The symbol also has to be one of its citizens exercising his right to burn that flag in protest. Now show me that, defend that, celebrate that in your classrooms.

Then you can stand up and sing about the land of the free.

...as good today as it was in the movie, I think.

December 14, 2010 at 1:01 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

open_eyes (anonymous) says...

I would disagree that the ACLU protects the freedom of all religions EQUALLY. It seems there are numerous instances where what they sue regarding Christianity they look the other way or even promote regarding Islam. There are California public schools that have banned pork from the menu, set aside special times for Muslim students to pray, etc..... but yet they ban Christian prayers in school. The ACLU is strangely silent or defending only Islam in cases like this.

December 14, 2010 at 1:20 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

That was a very good post 'enry!......At least 90 percent of it was.

But you do your self and your cause a disservice when you always resort to derogatory descriptions of people that think differently than you do. I know all too well that you are doing nothing more than many do to you.....but lowering yourself to their level helps them and harms you.....at least in the eyes of many.

.

December 14, 2010 at 1:28 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

HenryVIII (anonymous) says...

biscuitboy,
Yeah, I know I'm hurting my cause and credibility with such rhetoric, but it seems to be the only way to get their attention. Since it's taboo to say such things, it tends to make people wake up and take notice. Even if it's for all the wrong reasons...

Just to clear the air, I don't really think all religious folk are "simpletons". I tend get along with people of all beliefs. I'm just abusing my anonymity here to emphasize my point in an abrasive manner.

open_eyes,
Could you provide links to information about the ACLU suing regarding Christianity and about these schools banning pork and allowing Muslim-only prayer time? Maybe the ACLU doesn't know about it...if you give them a heads-up, I'm sure they'll investigate.
'enry

December 14, 2010 at 1:51 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

Excellent passage karmadog but virtually never understood by those that want to proclaim their right to free speech by denying some else the same right.

If you value free speech and freedom of religion you have to value it just as much for the people that you totally disagree with as for your brothers-in-arms. You can not have freedom of religion as long as one religion is given preferential treatment over the others. Makes no difference if that religion be Christian, Islam, or Pedestrian. For one religion to be free all have to be treated equal.

December 14, 2010 at 1:54 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

open_eyes (anonymous) says...

http://www.campus-watch.org/article/i...

Can you imagine..... what the ACLU would be doing if the same special changes were made for any other religion.

And of course, public schools prohibit Christian students from reading the Bible, praying, etc... but in the case of a San Fran school which, after 9/11, taught a "becoming Muslim" course, in which

"about 125 students dressed up in Muslim robes, studied Islamic proverbs and read verses from the Koran to earn points toward their overall grade. It said the students were required to say phrases such as "Allah Akbar," which is Arabic for "God is great," and memorize Muslim prayers, fulfill the Five Pillars of Islam and fast during lunch to simulate the fasting done during the Islamic holy month of Ramadan.
"From the beginning, you and your classmates will become Muslims," the handout read. "Dressing as a Muslim and trying to be involved will increase your learning and enjoyment."
The students also had to pick a Muslim name out of a list of 30 to replace their name and had to organize a mock hajj, or pilgrimage, to Mecca using a dice game."

Of course, the ACLU was nowhere to be found on that one. The Thomas More Law Center sued them.

http://www.christianforums.com/t18132/

I also can find plenty of links where Menorahs & Islamic Star & Crescents were expressly given permission to be displayed in public schools, but not Nativity scenes. Where's the ACLU in those cases?

ACLU seems to be asleep alot of the time. Maybe you can wake them up. Of course, if you do a little digging into the original founding of the ACLU and its purpose, it isn't what most think. As their founder, Roger Baldwin wrote, “I seek the social ownership of property, the abolition of the propertied class and sole control by those who produce wealth. Communism is, of course, the goal.”

December 14, 2010 at 3:51 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

HenryVIII (anonymous) says...

open_eyes,
It seems like the ACLU looked into it...
http://www.aclusandiego.org/news_item...

"Since learning of the Carver program, the ACLU has been monitoring and investigating. We have made public records requests to obtain a more accurate understanding of the facts, have spoken to the school district’s attorney, and have communicated our position to the school district. There are questions that remain to be answered. We will continue to monitor the situation to insure that the rights of all are protected and that competing rights are reconciled appropriately."

I didn't see any dates on the article I linked, but it did say the school raised some concerns and the ACLU was looking into it.
'enry

December 14, 2010 at 4:10 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

open_eyes (anonymous) says...

Let's see, so they add a course where students earn points by reading from the Koran, chanting "God is Great", dressing up in the in traditional Islamic dress & choosing Islamic names, etc.......

and they "look into it"........ and absolutely nothing else. Yeah..... they "looked into it". Betcha there'd have been a suit within the week had it been anything other than Islam.

Of course, they have to do so occasionally, to keep up appearances of being "fair"..... ;-)

December 14, 2010 at 4:32 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

pencilguy (anonymous) says...

why dont we just call it the merry chrishanukkamas ramadwanza celebration?

December 14, 2010 at 8:42 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

REWBA (anonymous) says...

ميلاد سعيد عيد الميلاد

December 14, 2010 at 8:53 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Steve_Corbin (anonymous) says...

HEY DID YOU GUYS SEE WHERE kELLEY HUNT, a 1974 graduate will be singing in this program?

She has a very good voice, no matter what song she is singing.

What difference does it make if this thing is called the Christmas Program, or the Seasonal Celebration, or A really Purdy Winter Concert?

It is something to do in Emporia Kansas.

You either go to it or you don't. The choice is yours. How did this thread go so far off topic ?

In order to resolve all these "problems" next year, maybe it should be called
"The Thing" and we can all go and enjoy it.

Jeeze people, chill.

December 14, 2010 at 9:26 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

ksnewsie (anonymous) says...

Open_Eyes: Are you aware that there is a bible study group, whose members are students, that meets at Emporia High? IT is allowed BECAUSE it is not sponsored by the school. Other than a few over-zealous administrators at a few schools, no one says students can't pray at public schools -- as long as the administration does not sponsor it.

December 14, 2010 at 9:35 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

REWBA (anonymous) says...

الاسترخاء ، وسيكون كل شيء على ما يرام

December 14, 2010 at 9:47 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

krazykansan (anonymous) says...

Henry, In reference to your post on the 13th at 4:36.
My come back is that I have only been to a church 3 times in my life, once when I got married, once for each of my 2 daughters when they were baptized.
So you are way off on your belief that a church has influenced me.
I can't explain it and would not expect any card carrying ACLU atheist to understand it, but I just feel the feeling and as I said not influenced by a church, but I think influenced by things that have happened in my life and things I have observed and taken due note of.
It is a wonderful feeling, and sometimes it brings tears of joy to this simpleton's
eyes and heart. Like I said I can't explain it and sure hope it never goes away.

I never try to convert or even talk about God or Church except when the ACLU tells me I can't.

Hope someday that feeling will unexplainably occur for you.

Have a Merry Christmas!

December 14, 2010 at 11:07 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

open_eyes (anonymous) says...

ksnewsie - I'm not surprised, and I am aware that non-school sponsored activities are different. My apologies, I just assumed everyone knew that. I was referring to the contrast between that rule about not being sponsored, and the Islam class in the California school - and the ACLU merely "looks into it". In other words, you kinda just confirmed my point. If the administration were to sponsor it at Emporia High, betcha anything we'd have an army of ACLU lawyers descending on it within the week. And I'm not complaining about that at all, regardless of whether I particularly agree with it or not. But if a school sanctions & teaches Islam in a class...... they just "look into it"......

And now the ACLU has sent letters to 137 school superintendents across Tennessee warning them that celebrations focusing on primarily one religion are unconstitutional, and informed them they should use the word "Holiday" and not "Christmas".

Maybe they should have merely "looked into it"....... if they truly are as even-handed as they have duped some folks into believing they are.

December 14, 2010 at 11:43 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

apierich (anonymous) says...

I was raised in the Church of Christ (which is not Mormon as so many think) to believe that the celebration of Christmas is secular as we don't and never will know the actual date of Jesus's birth, so religion has never been a part of the holidays for me. The closest it has had anything to do with religion is being able to go to programs that are recreations of programs set up by the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches in the middle ages which I actually see as more of a history/theatre/sociological study of those times. I am now at a point in my life that is odd to some, I am agnostic, married to a Wiccan, my brother is a Buhdist who goes to a Lutheran church (don't worry, he doesn't live in this town anymore) because he likes their message more than other churches he has gone to, my five year old has been begging me all month to celebrate Haunnika (I forget how to spell it so sorry) and to learn more about Kwanza which we probably will do both because I don't believe in tolerance but in knowledge and acceptance of differances, and my husband and I are saving and planning a trip to the next Obberamergau Passion Play as ferverantly as our first trip to Disney when our son is tall enough to ride space mountain with his father as it would be the first time for both of them. This is more the picture of the future of America and what the ideals of those who now seem so radically arguing over semantics on this thread have created.

I am excited to bring my three kids to see the Seasonal Program, being an Army Brat that is what they were always called when I was in them growing up. These kids work so hard and are so proud to be a part of it there is no way I would miss it. If any of you refuse to show up in protest of it not being called a "Christmas" program, I guess there will be more seats for those who care about the kids and community as a whole than their staunch paranoid self rightous image.

And P.S. as long as there are tests in school there will be prayer in school. Also, if you read the fine print about prayer in school, it can not be instituted or lead by a school official during school hours or activities, and there are many schools still out there that have a "moment of silence" at the time school prayers use to be so long ago that all students can use as they please as long as they are quiet.

December 15, 2010 at 1:07 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

apierich (anonymous) says...

Also, as far as the B.C. and A.D. those are now in B.C.E. and C.E. for before current era and current era so as not to offend anyone, perhaps that is supposed to be anyone that doesn't speak Latin or something. All the newer text books will have it that way now, I first saw it in one of my college text books 4 years ago and on documentaries a lot since. So that means the kids in primary and secondary school around this state will see it when they enter college and if they watch documentaries before that.

December 15, 2010 at 1:17 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

hogan77 (anonymous) says...

My only comment is that I really wish they would hold the concert at least one day of the weekend. I was in it back when it WAS called the "Christmas Program". I also went to it for years before I participated, as did my dear grandmother who was also in it when SHE was a girl.

I would love to share the same experience with my own daughter. However, because it is during the week, and she has school, I cannot take her to it. I would even travel to come see it, the whole 3 1/2 hours, just for a new tradition to share with her.

December 15, 2010 at 2:29 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

apierich

Now there is an approach to religion and religious teaching that makes sense. There is nothing inherently wrong with studying about any religion. Religion after all has been central to the cause and effect of most of human civilization. I don't even have any problem with teaching about religion (all religion--not just one) in the schools as long as it is presented as part of the history and development of our different cultures, and the effect it had on those cultures and the rest of the world. And to me, that sounds a lot like what the Seasonal Celebration is trying to do....teach about differing cultures.

That is the role of the public schools....to teach about the world....not about religion. Teaching about the specifics of religious dogma should be left to the churches synagogues, mosques, and temples.

Go to the Seasonal Celebration to celebrate the work of the children as they celebrate the cultures of the world. Go to your church or mass to celebrate the birth of your Christ. What is so hard about that?

December 15, 2010 at 4:04 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

open_eyes (anonymous) says...

Biscuitboy - agreed. My only point is that the ACLU doesn't seem to react the same to all as has been claimed.

December 15, 2010 at 9:44 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

susieq (anonymous) says...

I beg to differ from everyone. This year is NOT the 75th year of the Seasonal Celebration. It is only the 8th or 10th year. Before it was titled the seasonal celebration it was the "Christmas Program", same type of program put on by the same people, but the name implies something different. Lets call it what it is supposed to be, Christmas Program.....

December 15, 2010 at 9:51 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

REWBA (anonymous) says...

open_eyes, When the ACLU looks into allegations that a Muslim, Jewish, Druid, Wiccan, Atheist, Buddhist or Hindu religion group might be trampling on other American’s rights, these groups listen to the concerns and realize that what they may be doing could affect others so they cooperate without making a spectacle. But, when the Christian majority is stomping on everybody and the ACLU looks into it, the Christians run to CNN, Congress, the League of Nations and anyone else they might think will help them to spread the word that the ACLU is out to get them without even considering that what they are doing is trampling on the non-Christian minority without any concern or shame whatsoever. If you believe in Christ because your mama said, that’s totally alright, but, if you believe in Christ because a public school teacher said so…that is government sponsorship of a religious cult and violates our rights.
I know, it was ALWAYS called “Christmas Program” in the past. Just remember, in the past we had white’s only drinking fountains, a woman’s place was in the home and if you go back far enough, we fed Christians to the lions. Oh, the good ole days!

December 15, 2010 at 10:14 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

HenryVIII (anonymous) says...

susieq,
Why is it "supposed" to be called that? Who says? What gives them (or you) the right to call it what you want? By calling it that, you're slamming the door in the face of all non-Christians. Is that what they teach you in church; to only think of yourselves? Do you have any non-Christian friends? We're people too and we should be able to attend our kids' program without being indoctrinated into the Christian faith while we're there.

Don't you people have your own private Catholic schools and such anyway? How about all the private Christian schools put on their own private Christmas Program and the rest of the town have our public Seasonal Celebration. Obviously you don't want to celebrate with people of different faiths, so you should be more comfortable in the private setting where you can control what you call the celebration and who you let in.

I bet susieq thinks it's "supposed" to be called that because it's "always been that way". For the last time, just because something has "always been that way" doesn't mean it's the best way. (Ex: slavery, women voting, Quonset huts, Sunday sales bans, etc...) Why is that religious types are totally against any kind progress? To get better, things need to change sometimes. Can't you see how the name change is better for everyone? Again, you have to think of others for a change to realize this.
'enry

Merry Xmuhz!

December 15, 2010 at 10:17 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Steve_Corbin (anonymous) says...

Everyone turn your thermostats down to 60 degrees today at 3:00 p.m. By 5 or 6 you'll start to get cold, but wait. Instead of turning up the heat drive on down to the concert. Nice warm auditorium and enough music to warm even the coldest body. At only 3 bucks it's a deal.

MERRY CHRISTMAS !

December 15, 2010 at 11:13 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

open_eyes (anonymous) says...

REWBA, that's fine, you can characterize it in whatever fashion you want. And there is some truth to what you say, often, the rights of others get trampled on without concern. But...... that "trampling"..... goes both ways.

But you did put a real funny in there - especially regarding Muslims. When the ACLU "looks into" the fact that they might be stepping on other American's rights....... they cooperate without making a spectacle.

Now THAT's funny. You must be new to the country. Welcome to America! :-)

December 15, 2010 at 11:16 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

open_eyes (anonymous) says...

BTW, Henry - "religious types" aren't always totally against any kind of progress. Some are, yes. Just as some non-religious types are as well. Much of the anti-slavery movement in the 1800's was founded by and driven by Christians. The Woman’s Christian Temperance Union was also one of the major driving forces supporting suffrage and giving women the right to vote. The Muslim world was once at the forefront of the world in mathematics & astronomy.

I know you like to stereotype and ascribe broad sweeping denigrating characterizations to anyone who doesn't see it from your point of view but I wish you'd be a little more accurate from time to time.

December 15, 2010 at 11:22 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

allintogether (anonymous) says...

If the ACLU is so ideologically balanced then I want the them to start suing prison inmates that demand certain special privileges because of certain religious beliefs. We aren't supposed to be practicing religion in publicly funded institutions or in the public square. If they want to practice their religion in prison their church or religious organization had better build a private prison to house THEIR inmates.

I think that if indeed tolerance is a two way street mentioning Christ in a seasonal celebration should be perfectly acceptable. Clearly, tolerance in this instance is not a two way street because if one tried to mention Christ in a Seasonal Celebration they would be shouted down by those in the two camps of people offended by the teachings of a largely peaceful religion and part time, skewed scholars of the US Constitution that frees people from religion if the institution takes taxpayer money in any form.

Why is it we don't give a flip about what Christians are sensitive to anymore? We only care what the minority religions or people who don't believe in something bigger than themselves are sensitive to? If the latter is the case then the situation is hardly equitable for Christians. In which case I say scrap the seasonal celebration all together because nobody is really getting anything substantive out of it anyway. Just have the kids do skits and sing songs about giving and getting the hottest gift of the season or as I like to call it those who have been manipulated by supplier induced demand. At least the consumers will get something out of it and they won't have all those religious trappings to deal with. Hell, might even leave the door open for corporate sponsorship. "This Seasonal Celebration brought to you by Wal-Mart". Has a nice ring to it doesn't it? I mean that is what is important during this season right?

Peace on Earth, goodwill (and equity) to ALL (even the Christians).

December 15, 2010 at 11:44 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

kira002 (anonymous) says...

susieq, this is that 17th Seasonal Celebration, if you want to get technical. I was in the last Christmas Program in 1992 and the first Seasonal Celebration in 1993. The comments on the this thread are pretty much the same ones I've been hearing/reading since the title and program were changed to better reflect the diversity in our city.

This is, however, the 75th annual celebration of the season put on by our public school children, no matter what the title.

December 15, 2010 at 11:55 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

sail (anonymous) says...

If you are ever lucky enough to hear the album Web Records produced of the school district Christmas Program in the early 70s count yourself blessed.O.Henry its an epiphany ,im sure you would enjoy.MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL

December 15, 2010 at 12:59 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

open_eyes (anonymous) says...

It will be interesting to watch how the case of the Muslim teacher in Chicago who wants 3 weeks of unpaid leave off to attend the Hajj will turn out. The board denied the request on the grounds that her requested leave was unrelated to her professional duties and was not set forth in the contract between the school district and the teachers union. The FEDS are suing on her behalf to force the school board to "reasonably accommodate her religious practices".

Interesting to see how it turns out.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101214/a...

December 15, 2010 at 1:01 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

create (anonymous) says...

Yes, very interesting. Contract law can get very sticky. I didn't realize there was a separate contract between the union and the school district. Maybe it's different in Illinois. Here in Kansas, the contract is between the teacher and the school district. The union only gets involved if the teacher is a member. I'll bet someone is going over that contract with a fine-toothed comb right now. Keep us posted.

December 15, 2010 at 2:08 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

HenryVIII (anonymous) says...

sail,
We actually have a copy of that record, but no functioning player anymore. I haven't listened to it in a long time, but I recall the sound quality being all scratchy and awful. Now it works create as a giant coaster on our coffee table. Our kids used to pick it up and toss it around like a Frisbee or something. It's a wonder it never shattered to pieces! lol
Merry Crispmas!
'enry

December 15, 2010 at 4:58 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

sail (anonymous) says...

OHHH.Henry,it was a very fine recording ,to bad , bet you would have liked it.

December 15, 2010 at 5:11 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

marko (anonymous) says...

happy non-denominational winter holiday everyone, don't violate any sound-ordinance levels
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abEQ8W...

December 18, 2010 at 9:05 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

methusla (anonymous) says...

Here is something that may just either settle or enlarge the argument or question as to why the birth of Jesus is celebrated on Dec. 25th and as to why it is called " Christmas " . http://www.bing.com/videos/watch/vide...

And I suggest you pay close attention as to who and why Dec. 25th was chosen as the date as the birth of Jesus Christ !!

Merry Christmas/Happy Holidays and a Happy and Better New Year to everyone !

December 21, 2010 at 8:38 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

create (anonymous) says...

I watched that video earlier, methusla. It is an excellent one and should address many long-standing arguments. I enjoyed it. Thanks for posting it.

December 21, 2010 at 10:06 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

hogan77 (anonymous) says...

I would love to purchase a video copy of the program, if anyone happens to have one. Sadly I cannot make it to Emporia to watch it live- my daughter is still in classes when they perform. It's pretty difficult to get that 3 1/2 hour drive in just to watch it then drive all the way back home.

If anyone happens to have a video copy they would be willing to duplicate, please contact me and let me know.

December 21, 2010 at 3:48 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

open_eyes (anonymous) says...

But if Christmas is just to celebrate the Winter Solstice, then what about the Southern Hemisphere? Or the tropics? Since south of the equator Christmas is in the middle of the summer, are they celebrating the days starting to get shorter? The Summer Solstice? The end of spring? Or could it be.... (gasp)... that they actually celebrate it as....... the birth of Christ?

http://www.cultureandrecreation.gov.a...

http://www.theholidayspot.com/christm...

http://www.hispanic-culture-online.co...

La Navidad Argentina! :-)

December 25, 2010 at 6:52 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

REWBA (anonymous) says...

open_eyes, For your information. Christopher Columbus brought Christianity to the New world more than a thousand years after the emperor of Rome took control of the Christians organizing the religion to better serve Rome. The indigenous people of the Americas had never heard of the God of the Jews or the Savior of the Christians. Their first glimpse of things to come came in the choice between a cross or a sword. We will never know everything about that civilization because the Christians burned almost all of their writings, killed their priests, murdered the men, raped the women and baptized the babies.

Australia is populated by the people of the northern hemisphere. The indigenous people of Australia experienced much of the same that the indigenous people of the Americas experienced.

I hope that answered your question.

December 25, 2010 at 8:30 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )