Trying to legally turn left onto a portion of Graphic Arts Road is not possible for cars. Trying to turn at all on Graphic Arts without hitting something is not possible for trucks.
The roadway, which is on the west edge of town between U.S. Highway 50 and the bridge over Interstate 35, is difficult to navigate because of a design change and trucks running over traffic islands. What could be done about it is not clear, short of spending lots of money.
Motorists are not allowed to turn left from 12th or 15th Avenue onto Graphic Arts. There is an open space between the islands for southbound motorists on Graphic Arts to make a legal left onto 12th Avenue. But more than a few drivers are using that space to make an illegal left from 12th Avenue onto Graphic Arts.
The other concern is trucks coming from 12th and 15th avenues. They can turn right legally, but the trucks are too big for the space provided so they drive up and over the island.
“We are trying to discourage trucks from going out there because they are tearing up our roadway,” said City Manager Matt Zimmerman. “At some point, the city taxpayers will have to pay for it if trucks keep driving over the island.”
That is one reason why city leaders are considering changing truck routes in Emporia for the first time since 1986. Trucks driving through town have to use designated routes. Trucks making deliveries can travel off the route, but they have to go back to the route after the delivery.
Some route changes are long overdue, officials say. One addition would be routes to Industrial Park III in the southeast part of the city. If approved, trucks will be able to use East South Avenue, East Logan Avenue and Road M.
Another change is for trucks to use Merchant Street downtown rather than Mechanic Street. That way trucks don’t have to go through the railroad underpass. A Bud Light truck got stuck in the underpass last month.
Out west, staff is recommending removing Graphic Arts and the far west portions of 12th and 15th avenues as truck routes and designating Graham Street from Sixth to 12th avenues and Hatcher Street from 12th to 15th avenues instead.
Commissioner Jeff Longbine said he doesn’t want to cut 12th Avenue off because it would reduce options for truck drivers. Trucks drop off vehicles at Longbine’s dealership from 12th. Longbine said Graham and Hatcher aren’t conducive to trucks.
“If there is a northbound car on Graham at the stop sign, trucks can’t get around that corner,” he said. “To ask a trucker with a large load to make that jog is difficult in the first place.”
Hostess Brands trucks heading west are currently in a bind. Zimmerman said he understands it isn’t ideal but the trucks will have to go down Industrial Road or the Hatcher and Graham route if the city commission adds it as a route.
“The worst they would have to do is backtrack a quarter-mile for a total half-mile onto their trip,” Zimmerman said.
The original plan was to allow left turns from 15th Avenue onto Graphic Arts Road. But the roadway was designed at an angle that made it impossible to make a left turn. It was a Kansas Department of Transportation project.
“I don’t know why we allowed KDOT to screw up the west end of town,” Longbine said.
Commissioner Kevin Nelson asked whether KDOT would pay for improvements.
Zimmerman said following some very intense meetings and negotiations, KDOT, the Kansas Turnpike Association and project engineers decided to put in the no left turn island. The other options were to rebuild the bridge for many millions of dollars or relocate 15th Avenue further south, which would be on private land.
“The city had no money into this, so KDOT, KTA and the engineers refused those two options,” Zimmerman said.
Longbine said stoplights might be the eventual solutions but that would cost upwards of $800,000.
Nelson said perhaps the city should considering suing KDOT. Longbine said the problem with that is the city may not get future road projects. He said it may be time to talk with state legislators.
In the meantime, the city will research options and talk with KDOT. Zimmerman said he has told police to largely lay off the Graphic Arts intersections until the commission chooses truck route changes.
solong (anonymous) says...
Idiots!!!!
August 31, 2010 at 11:25 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
blulitespecial (anonymous) says...
Start rebuilding them the way they should be.Any KDOT and KTA authorities show up - arrest them.No bail for a couple of weeks.Let them sue you.I doubt State lawmakers will stand in your way,or authorize the funds for their lawsuit.
Break out the jackhammers and trackhoes!
August 31, 2010 at 12:04 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
REWBA (anonymous) says...
The Architect Engineer who designed the flawed product is liable for the flawed design. Was it the same Architect Engineer who designed the figure eight demolition derby course at the turnpike exchange? Emporia has a pretty good case against the Architects who drew the plans for both areas. If we don't sue, it is the same as saying we like the additional expenses caused by these designs. When someone is crushed to death by a tractor trailer tipping over out there, someone is going to sue. Who will get the blame? Us citizens?
While a design professional can hire others to assist him, he can not delegate away his responsibility to see that the work he has taken on is carried out with due care. The Mississippi Supreme Court has stated:
"The presumption is that, if an architect is licensed and registered, he has the capability of planning a building and supervising its construction in accordance with his plans. Consequently, if he undertakes a project, he alone will be held responsible therefor. If he delegates any part of his duties, he does so at his peril." ~~State Board of Registration v. Rogers, 239 Miss. 35, 120 So. 2d 772, 775 (1960).
August 31, 2010 at 1:05 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
TexasGirl (anonymous) says...
"Zimmerman said he has told police to largely lay off the Graphic Arts intersections until the commission chooses truck route changes." I find it a bit disturbing that a poor design plan makes it necessary to reduce law enforcement in the area.
August 31, 2010 at 1:06 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
giggles (anonymous) says...
I agree with REWBA, it's time we stop paying for someone else's mistakes. Make them fix the atrocious design flaws at their expense. Emporia needs better roads not better road hazards.
August 31, 2010 at 1:25 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
neighbor (anonymous) says...
The designs are fine, it's the drivers that can't drive worth a darn that are the problem as usual. Although I disagreed with their decision to eliminate the left turns at 12th and 15th, I can see how it would work to reduce bottlenecks if the morons who can't drive weren't trying their best to mess the flow up. I didn't like the round abouts at first myself, but once again when people drive the right way, they do work much better than sign/light controlled intersections do. Trucks wouldn't be rolling over in them if the driver operating them slowed down and got rid of the "I'm bigger than you get out of my way" attitude while taking up all the lanes because he was going too fast entering into the curve. I would suggest a reporter and photographer could spend an hour out by one of the round abouts and have a week's worth of examples of how not to drive. I have seen semi's going the wrong way around them, vehicles failing to yield vehicles already in the flow, I've even seen vehicles dirt track sliding around them.
As for the trucks not being able to use Graphic Arts, or using their size as an excuse to drive over the islands, I say poppycock!( pun intended ) All they have to do to avoid problems is to go up Industrial or Graphic Arts from 6th or Hwy50 in the first place. They should only use 12th, 15th, 18th, or 30th as access in or out from their destination, not as a main artery streets. There is absolutely no reason why semi's or smaller delivery trucks should be going West at Graphic Arts and 15th, none. That intersection has been the same way since I-35 was first built, angled road at the entrance to the bridge.
Yeah, lets sue KDOT, tear it all out, spend millions more and either put the spaghetti bowls back into place or try a totally new design while dealing with detours and the traffic hassles for another four years. Or the herd could simply learn how to drive and adapt to change.
August 31, 2010 at 2:21 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
Well, Kiddies. The City is planning on making similar changes to the Hwy50 and Industrial Rd. Intersections at the Fairgrounds corner also. To the tune of $150,000 dollars.
Our so called leaders, just can' t seem to leave well enough alone.
August 31, 2010 at 2:26 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
oh4theluvof (anonymous) says...
I heard somewhere that change is always better. I have my doubts, but they're probably right. Take this town, for instance..........
August 31, 2010 at 2:50 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
REWBA (anonymous) says...
I agree with neighbor about the way people drive. But that is the purpose of paying an Architect Engineer. They have to design roads for the way the world works and not how they would work in a perfect world. Not realizing that a bridge built at the elevation that it was built would create a dangerous blind spot for traffic coming off the side streets is GROSS NEGLIGENCE. The costs to make it right is more than the original cost of the bridge that was designed and built. The Architect Engineer who signed the final plans is liable for all costs associated with making it right. I would be willing to bet that that Architect Engineer has liability insurance. If not, they shouldn't have been contracted.
August 31, 2010 at 3:22 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
giggles (anonymous) says...
Yes people do drive like crap. I witness it everyday when heading home west on Hwy 50. They are rude, don't yeild when they are supposed to, and they seem especially keen on beating you either to get on the roundabout, or if you are coming off onto west 50 beat you to entering the highway. Others don't know how to operate a roundabout altogether! (i.e. the little old lady last week, who was stuck on the inner embankment of the roundabout pointing the wrong direction. I think she was too terrified to move.) Many don't even live in this county and have never seen one before.
It would be great if people were better drivers, but sadly there are too many entitled people who apparently don't have to follow the rules. I say good luck to changing people's attitudes and how they drive. Unless you can have a police officer there at all times, people will drive that way. It is unfortunate that there aren't more police there as they could be raking in some real dough from all of the violations daily. The city and county could really benefit from having a full time traffic officer there giving out tickets daily to out of towners, especially from Johnson County!
The least the engineer could do was make sure that it would be safe enough to prevent most accidents that are likely to happen. Angles and driving space are factors that engineers have to use to design any project. Once again I agree with REWBA on this.
August 31, 2010 at 4:48 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Happiness08 (anonymous) says...
Just out of curosity.....might this be a problem because the same moron designed it as the one who designed our wonderful round-a-bout by the turnpike entrance? Next time ask somebody who DOESN'T sit behind a desk how to design a road!
August 31, 2010 at 4:52 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
create (anonymous) says...
The Z man says, “At some point, the city taxpayers will have to pay for it if trucks keep driving over the island.”
Oh yeah, right you are, Zimmerman! Great leadership there. And what exactly did you say about a solution other than put it on the taxpayers' backs?
Why should we have to pay because of their bad design?
I agree with giggles on a full time officer there to issue tickets.
August 31, 2010 at 4:58 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
custom (anonymous) says...
Imagine Jeff doesn't want to do anything to hurt his set up. So that is clear off the table. Wish i was rich enough to be able to be on the commission so i could make things just right for me. Make the tax payers suffer!
August 31, 2010 at 5:21 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
custom (anonymous) says...
Oh i forgot. What bridge over I-35? Are they planning on opening that again someday?
August 31, 2010 at 5:23 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
rabblerouser (anonymous) says...
The sheer stupidy of it all is dumbfounding!!!!!!!!!
August 31, 2010 at 5:40 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
justaflushaway (anonymous) says...
just put up some damn signs that say "" NO TRUCKS ALLOWED"" , and if zimmy says they are to expensive, I am sure some 8 year olds could make them. and stupid longbine would pay 800,000 to fix the problem. WAKE THE HELL UP, SO MANY IDIOTS IN SUCH A SMALL AREA.
August 31, 2010 at 5:53 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
spectator (anonymous) says...
I agree with Longbine on the 12th & Hatcher thing; I've seen many trucks high-centered or dragging the back end on the pavement. Years ago, I heard on the police scanner that a truck was stuck and that the railroad people had stopped the engine and its cars. Pretty sure it took 2 big wreckers from Flint Hills to clear things up.
“The worst they would have to do is backtrack a quarter-mile for a total half-mile onto their trip,” Zimmerman said. Gee, zimmy, that wouldn't be any problem at all for a semi now would it? In case you hadn't realized it, a semi doesn't handle the same way your Jaguar does. You amaze me with your thought process.
August 31, 2010 at 9:12 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
oops (anonymous) says...
Be hard to put cops everywhere since alot of the time there is only 3-4 on duty in the city. The roundabout is a joke. All our family from out of town can't figure it out the first try, neither can the cars that get off the turnpike. Its a royal cluster and I don't see the advantage gained. The city with the help of KDOT have royally screwed up access to the west side of our city, and I wonder how much of my tax money it will take to fix it. Maybe they can just do like the county and take another 5 mills to fix the roads to "acceptable levels" :)
August 31, 2010 at 10:42 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
reddog (K. B. Thomas Jr.) says...
Now for the rest of the story. The orginal plan for 12th avenue and Graphic Arts was a Geometric Realignment in which cars and trucks could turn left onto highway 50. As a matter of fact the City spent 100,000 dollars on attorney, appraisal and witness fees on this corner and then abandon the project when the owner of the cornor would not accept their offer of 40,000 dollars which wasn't even close to the fair market value. To say that KDOT was the bad guy is not taking responsibility for making a terrible mistake.
September 1, 2010 at 1:04 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
reddog (K. B. Thomas Jr.) says...
The state of Kansas spent over 25 million dollars for the benefit of economic development and to have the city of Emporia to turn traffic north away from motels and businesses on 12th and 15th is discriminating to highway 50.
September 1, 2010 at 1:12 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
reddog (K. B. Thomas Jr.) says...
The problem can be solved with stoplights and the city should apply for Federal and State grants to solve this problem. The other solution would be to negotiate with Brad Hase the new owner of the corner. In light of new developments at the fairgrounds, 12th and 15th avenues should allow left turns.
September 1, 2010 at 1:24 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
reddog (K. B. Thomas Jr.) says...
Toney Menke, the project manager for KDOT told me that there was money in the project for a left hand turn at 12th and Graphic Arts and that it was not KDOT'S idea to turn traffic north even though the former city enginner said, it was KDOT'S IDEA AND THAT'S WHAT THEY WANTED. If you believe that, I will sell you some swamp land over in Chase County.
September 1, 2010 at 1:43 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
reddog (K. B. Thomas Jr.) says...
I would hope that the previous owners of the the former Didde building would make public there side of the story--maybe, I am missing something.
September 1, 2010 at 1:47 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
reddog (K. B. Thomas Jr.) says...
An out of town investigative reporter would have quite a story which might even have some Las Vegas entanglements and intrigue.
September 1, 2010 at 2:03 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
reddog (K. B. Thomas Jr.) says...
I want to make a disclaimer that these are my thoughts and not of my family or other business people on highway 50.
September 1, 2010 at 2:05 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
reddog (K. B. Thomas Jr.) says...
I had a meeting with the City manager about traffic turning north only and I was informed that's what the city council wanted.
September 1, 2010 at 2:16 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
reddog (K. B. Thomas Jr.) says...
Emporia is a body of people who have done great things in the past together and who hope to do great things in the future.
September 1, 2010 at 2:26 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
reddog (K. B. Thomas Jr.) says...
Bad intersections are the worst economic tyranny. This is morally wrong and can not be politically right.
September 1, 2010 at 2:42 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
reddog (K. B. Thomas Jr.) says...
At the end of each day the one thing so wonderful to me is the realization that the important things in life are not things. I don't mind forgiving my enemies, sometimes that's the only way I can get back at those people. Old Bert Rich when he was in his 90's told me he had no more enemies, he out lived them all.
September 1, 2010 at 3:18 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
custom (anonymous) says...
Sadly now that we "fixed" the intersection we will go back and "fix" it again. Anybdy that thinks differently has not learned from the past in Emporia. Need i mention 7th and Commercial?
September 1, 2010 at 6:31 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
giggles (anonymous) says...
Oops, I didn't say cops should be everywhere, I said that they should be at the roundabout. We wouldn't need but one out there, just strictly a "traffic cop". His duty would be to catch traffic violations and give tickets. I have seen plenty of violations daily just on my trek that way to know that the position would pay for itself.
September 1, 2010 at 9:35 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
deerfield (anonymous) says...
The tax payers of Emporia and Lyon County should know the facts regarding the intersections of Graphic Arts Road and 15th as well as Graphic Arts Road and 12th avenue. It amazes me that our Civic Leaders memories are so short and they are quick to blame KDOT or the engineers that designed these intersections and say “At some point, the city taxpayers will have to pay for it if trucks keep driving over the island.” If you ask me, the taxpayers have already paid…
Years ago, thousands of dollars were spent drafting detailed plans for these intersections, moving utilities, eliminating entrances to the old Didde building off Graphic Arts Road and changing the entrance to 12th avenue, removing rail lines, changing storm sewers, realigning 12th avenue and almost a $100,000 dollars in legal fees, appraisals, expert testimony, and the cost of an eminent board, after the City of Emporia abandoned the entire Eminent Domain process. Not sure who wrote the checks, but I am sure these were taxpayer dollars.
The City of Emporia had an opportunity to purchase the necessary land after the Eminent Domain hearings to allow the intersection of Graphic Arts Road and 15t Avenue to be moved south, as well as the corner of Graphic Arts Road and 12th so that intersection could be realigned creating separation between Highway 50 and 12th Avenue. For months we had heard from the City Engineer how they wanted this land and how plans were made and yet Emporia said no thank you and abandoned the project as it was originally engineered.
You have car dealerships that adjoin 12th avenue bringing in cars on 18 wheeler transports, you have fuel transport trucks bringing in fuel for a convenience store located right on the corner and yet we have intersections designed as if everyone drove a sub compact car and had nowhere to go, but north. When I travel west on 12th I was usually headed out of town to catch Highway 50 or the Kansas Turnpike as I am sure other people want to do, but can’t.
September 1, 2010 at 9:46 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
reddog (K. B. Thomas Jr.) says...
The traffic counts on 12th and 15th to Graphic Arts is very low now, but sometime in the future this could change and it would be less costly now in light of state and federal grants.
September 1, 2010 at 10:17 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
oops (anonymous) says...
The cops don't get the money from the tickets they write, so it wouldn't really pay for itself. All that money is funneled into the municipal court budget. The ambulance service operates similarly I do believe. Take from the public safety departments that bring in some revenue and landscape entrances and such instead of keeping the money for infrastructure and public safety.
September 1, 2010 at 10:49 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
esu (anonymous) says...
Control control control. Oh please, this is Emporia Ks. not Chicago or some other metropolis. Tear out those islands and paint lines instead. Why shouldn't trucks be allowed on 12th and 15th and Graphic Arts? For crying out loud, it's an Industrial Park not a residential area. You should be able to turn right or left. If sight clearance is a problem coming south over the I-35 bridge then divert traffic to the right lane and post a sign that says "Limited Sight Clearance" and reduce the speed limit. By the way, love where they put that little sign that says "No trucks beyond this point" on 15th. Nothing like driving all the way up there only to realize you're going to have to back all the way out. It's no wonder they go ahead and jump the curbs and islands. I just cant believe after spending all that money, its worse than it was. That's control for you.
September 1, 2010 at 2:13 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
spectator (anonymous) says...
I went to the 12th & Hatcher intersection and was delighted to see it was leveled out but I still agree with Longbine that it's poor for truck traffic. Semis and even the longer straight-bed trucks would have an issue. It would probably be a struggle for the Fire Department's longer trucks. [And for those of you who were fussing about trucks going too fast, I'd sort of prefer the Fire Trucks, and the Ambulances, speed it up a just little bit.]
Hatcher near 15th is pretty narrow and two trucks trying to negotiate that at the same time isn't a nice image.
Jaguars and new pickups could do OK.
September 1, 2010 at 2:18 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
reddog (K. B. Thomas Jr.) says...
SPECTOR, that there was good stuff. Have you ever heard the OH NO BIRD? OHHHHHHH NOOOOOOOO!!!!!!
September 1, 2010 at 2:29 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
MrCmonkeeDo (anonymous) says...
What was wrong with the way it was before the roundabout salesman came to town?
MrC doesn't remember there bein' m/any accidents out that way. Maybe there were an' He forgot. Were there?
It used to be "common sense" was about all one needed to get from here to there. Now days ya need nerves of steel, a rabbit's foot and St. Christopher Hisself to pilot you "round." It's confusing and frankly seems ridiculously small.
Likewise the Turnpike used to be so easy to get on an' off of. Now ya practically need a map to find the entrance.
It's startin' to sound like the west side of town is so screwed up it's practically unusable. Silly humans; what have you done?
September 1, 2010 at 7:40 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
neighbor (anonymous) says...
The part I questioned MrC was, with the high price tag that accompanies bridge construction, think of all the millions of dollars that was demolished to make way for the Turnpike Turnstiles. There were no structual problems with the bridges to warrant their removal, they were simply taken down to make way for the changes.
How long will it be before the W18th bridge they are building now, and the Graphic Art's bridge are torn out to make room for the next major improvement?
September 2, 2010 at 8:52 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
tbluma (anonymous) says...
You people might as well quit bithching about the roundabouts, they're hear to stay.
Yes the one on 18th could have been bigger but it was designed for cars.
As for the ones around the turnpike if you can drive and read signs they're GREAT.
No stop signs, no lights no nothin' just drive.
As for the cluster on Graphics Art rd.
Well that's a whole different story.
September 2, 2010 at 10:26 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
giggles (anonymous) says...
That's funny tbluma. I do know how to drive on a roundabout, I was even taught in drivers ed. It is simple, or so it would seem. I come across people everyday who don't know how to drive on them or just don't care to do it right.
The bigger point is, who allowed such poorly constructed designs to be put into place? There have been numerous problems from the onset, and they are still finding more! Why should something so new need fixing already? It's a very valid question and I think that those in charge should be accountable for once.
September 2, 2010 at 11:20 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
hartford (anonymous) says...
Well said esu!!
September 3, 2010 at 1:38 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
willow (anonymous) says...
spectator, Zimmerman doesn't have the Jaq anymore, unless he has turned into an African American male, cause it sure wasn't him is saw driving in around in that car the other day.
September 3, 2010 at 9:29 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
reddog (K. B. Thomas Jr.) says...
What a cover up-Redog and Deerfield blew the whistle on 12th and 15th avenues on Grafic Arts in that the City Commission turned traffic north instead of turning traffic left onto a major highway. Is this the type of newspaper you want to subscribe to? I buy it but don't subscribe because they kiss ass to the people that spend money on advertising like the chevy dealer.
September 7, 2010 at 11:35 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )