Non-Debate Between Godless Humanists and Religious Kooks
Rev. Kelley J. Lackey II, St. Andrew’s Episcopal Church
Friday, May 22, 2009
This week, National Public Radio has been doing a series of stories about “the Science of Spirituality.” The stories focus on the ways that our brains work in regard to such things as spiritual visions, near-death experiences and the impact of prayer on health and well-being. Emphasis is put on the fact that our brains are electro-chemical organs that are the very basis of human experience. But the stories have been intentional about not dismissing the real possibility of God. Instead, the journalists present the idea that perhaps the electro-chemical processes are what make it possible for us to comprehend and connect to something more than ourselves.
As an Episcopal priest, I find such stories interesting because they address issues that I deal with directly within my vocation. They also appeal to me because as an Episcopalian, I come from the Anglican branch of Christianity that buried Charles Darwin and Isaac Newton front and center within the confines of one of our most sacred shrines, Westminster Abbey. I appreciate such an approach because my religious belief is based upon the notion of balancing Scripture, Tradition and Reason, especially when it may force me from my own comfort zones and into a deeper encounter with God.
But recently I have come to appreciate such an approach to science and religion because of the mostly non-fruitful and downright derogatory ways that a few scientists and religious apologists have carried on in the public forum. Unfortunately, where science and religion are concerned, real dialogue is usually bypassed in favor of posted agendas.
All too often scientific method is used to justify an academic skepticism that degrades into a belittlement of all things having to do with faith and spirituality. While in the other camp, religion is often used in both silly and tragic ways to justify forms of ignorance about, and prejudice towards, the reality of the human condition and the cosmos as a whole.
With this approach, issues become an all-or-nothing prospect. For example, either you buy into the theory of evolution and you are branded as some kind of godless humanist. Or you buy into the notion of creationism and are marked as some sort of religious kook. There is no room left for the idea that perhaps there is a supreme being that uses the process of evolution, chemistry and the like to bring about creation. There is no room for the question of “how” from science and the question of “why” from religion.
I suspect, though, that such approaches to science and religion do not bear much fruit for either camp. I suspect that posting agendas based solely on scientific method or religious doctrine only feeds the zeal of those who are already converted to one particular way of thinking. And it only reinforces the social and political agendas that separate Christians and non-Christians alike. It also isn’t very true to the example we have of Jesus in the Gospels engaging a variety of folks from different backgrounds with various agendas.
I cannot speak for the scientific community nor can I speak for non-Christians. I am a Christian who has claimed Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. I am ordained to proclaim the faith that has been handed on to me from the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. A basic tenet of that faith is that Jesus Christ was fully and truly human while being fully and truly divine. His humanity is as important as his divinity because our humanity, with all of its biological, evolutionary and scientific aspects, was redeemed and made sacred in the embrace of Jesus Christ’s life, death and resurrection.
Ultimately, I must believe what Jesus says in the first and great commandment (Matthew 22: 37-40): that I am to love God with my whole being and I am to love my neighbor as myself. There is no commandment greater than this. Surely such an endeavor requires real dialogue with room for common ground, clearer understanding and perhaps a glance at the image of God in each other. I suspect that is more in line with the teachings of Jesus than more angry agendas that leave us yelling at each other like a bunch of godless humanists and religious kooks.
• “Sunday Sermon” is a forum for Emporia area ministers to share their sermons, thoughts and observations. This week’s sermon is from the Rev. Kelley J. Lackey II of the of St. Andrew’s Episcopal Church.
God (anonymous) says...
I like this article. The author implies that there is a junction between science and religion that has not been discovered. I suggest we look for that junction instead of wasting our time with Christianity and other such religions.
"religion is often used in both silly and tragic ways to justify forms of ignorance about, and prejudice towards, the reality of the human condition and the cosmos as a whole."
Yep, that's religion for you. At least the science side tries to use reason and logic to support their theories. There is no logic in religion.
May 22, 2009 at 1:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
May 22, 2009 at 1:53 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
Matthew 22
36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”
37 Jesus said to him, “ ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’[d] 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’[e] 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”
May 22, 2009 at 2:10 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
dianecb (anonymous) says...
At last! sanity!
I've been saying for years that the truth lies within the third option, and the argument over creationism vs. evolution makes about as much sense as arguing whether the coin is heads or tails!
May 22, 2009 at 2:13 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
I really like this article too, but, Dog-spelled-backwards, that "Isn't religion for you". Just as the article states, that is how SOME religious people USE it in tragic ways to justify forms of ignorance....... just as SOME scientists use their theories (look up the definition of "theory", while you're at it) - to belittle and discount anything that falls outside their "theories"..... even if they can't prove it.....
Just as St. Thomas Aquinas postulated, I find no logic in atheism.
May 22, 2009 at 2:15 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
dianecb - I agree. Does that mean you believe that there may be some truth to "intelligent design"? If so, do you believe that concept should at least be allowed to be discussed in classrooms along with discussions & study of evolution? Do you believe that evolution itself can be part of an "intelligent design"?
Personally..... that is what I believe....
May 22, 2009 at 2:17 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
"I suggest we look for that junction instead of wasting our time with Christianity and other such religions."
Who is this "we"? Are you suggesting that "we" get rid of religion and then try to find the junction between the theory of evolution and religion after "we" get rid of religion?
May 22, 2009 at 2:25 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
right seriouslyfolks - I fail to see the logic in "finding a junction" between 2 things by getting rid of one of them. Reminds me of Nancy Pelosi's idea of "bipartisanship" - LOL.
May 22, 2009 at 2:44 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
God (anonymous) says...
Yes. That is what I'm suggesting. If you keep telling your kid that Santa Claus is real, they won't question it and they won't learn the truth until something happens for them to doubt it. Once they raise the question and listen to logic, the answer is quite clear to them.
If you blindly follow your faith, you are also shielding yourself from the truth. You'll never be able to explore other possibilities if you don't question what you've been told to believe. If I wrote a book saying leprechauns were real, would you believe it? Do you believe books about UFOs that the authors believe to be true? How are the authors of the Bible any different than writers of today?
A child believing in fairy tales is fine, but this shouldn’t be the case for competent adults. We shouldn’t put our faith in story tales simply because we don’t have all the answers yet.
When I suggest we do away with "religion", I'm referring to the common practices and teachings of the modern Church. You can still be spiritual without believing in such nonsense. So, I guess I should have said there will be a junction of spiritual beliefs (not religion) and science.
I know it's more comfortable to believe in ideals like Santa and the tales in the Bible, but it's not real. Join us, friend, in looking for the real truth.
May 22, 2009 at 2:49 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
TacoBellB (anonymous) says...
Shouldn't your user name perhaps be antichrist or devil or something more fitting?!
May 22, 2009 at 2:53 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
irishemporia (anonymous) says...
Very nicely said, Rev. Lackey.
May 22, 2009 at 2:53 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
I'm all for questioning everything (from both sides) in search of the truth, (I do it all the time) - but can you prove UFO's don't exist? I'll give ya Santa Clause and leprechauns, but can you prove we are the only intelligent life in the universe?
Scientists once believed that man could not travel faster than 60 mph else he would be crushed. In 1896, the US Patent Office seriously considered closing down on the theory that everything that was to be discovered had already been discovered. Is it possible that sometimes.... science gets it wrong?
I also do not believe that all of the Bible is "nonsense". Some very sage advice on morals, values, getting along with others, etc... written by some very wise men, whether you believe it to be divinely inspired or not. Is our Constitution "nonsense"? After all, it is in some ways a code of conduct - that a nation follows. Will it be considered as such 2,000 years from now?
May 22, 2009 at 3:03 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
"You'll never be able to explore other possibilities if you don't question what you've been told to believe."
Not true at all. As an adult I explored possibilities (I was raised basically agnostic but I chose to be an atheist) and while I was out exploring God found me. God can soften the hardest of hearts. I am proof of that. Perhaps one day He will soften yours.
May 22, 2009 at 3:04 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mdjM4...
open_eyes
If you haven't seen this documentary you should check it out. Anyone with an open mind should really check it out.
May 22, 2009 at 3:10 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
seriouslyfolks I've actually read most of that book, and I honestly can't say that I agree with it as much as the author would like. We have found to date I think I read just the other day 344 nearby planets outside our solar system, and that without the ability (yet) to find smaller earth-like planets. So we DO know that planets are very, very common. Whether or not planets with life in the very narrow range we presume is required is another argument. But the math alone makes it almost a statistical certainty. In this book he postulates how we are possibly the only planet of our type in our galaxy. But then he doesn't mention that there are trillions of galaxies in the universe. If there is only 1 planet per galaxy just like ours, then there must be trillions of planets out there like ours.... besides, that's based only on life as WE expect it - there might be life based on non-carbon elements... who knows...... so he makes some very good points, while overlooking other points in that book, but that's just my opinion.
And who is to say that all of this isn't part of God's plan? I'm thinking he made the speed of light so hard (or impossible) to exceed and placed everything so far apart for a reason..... given how we seem to destroy everything we touch.... LOL :) Maybe we're not meant to meet others (other life) until we evolve as a society past our petty differences, and grow spiritually as a people. By which time we will have advanced technologically to that point also. Random thoughts......
May 22, 2009 at 3:26 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
Well I gotta run for the day but I am enjoying this article & posts, so I'll end for awhile with this:
"I believe that knowledge is fractal. Whatever we learn -- what remains however small it seems -- is infinitely complex." - Isaac Asimov
We, being finite limited beings, have limits to our ability to perceive: for a simple example, the spectrum of visible light. There are also limits to our technology - the tools we use to devine the truth. A microscope only views so microscopically, for instance. Our technologies can only pierce reality so deeply, even though they are steadily improving. But there are limits beyond which we simply cannot explain. Heisenberg's uncertainty priniciple, for instance - we cannot know both a subatomic particles speed and location is an easy example. Some things science simply states as unknowable. Well, if you can say with any certainty that it is NOT one thing or another..... then you've just contradicted yourself.....
So an open mind to science..... demands an open mind..... to lots of things..... :) maybe someday science WILL be able to explain it..... and the explanation will be.... (disregarding those that twist and abuse it) - that religion, at its core, had it right all along.....
May 22, 2009 at 3:30 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
I love this article....and some times open_eyes....I almost love you. In a Plutonic sort of way of course......
But none of us now know....and if we ever learn the truth...I'm betting it will be somewhere in between the godless humanist and the religious kooks. Who really knows what or where or how God is. The most important part is how we can all work together to make life for all humans on the planet as blessed as possible. There is myriad good in both views.....lets take the best from both and make this as truley a wonderful world for all of us that we can. JMO
May 22, 2009 at 4:07 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
bisquitboy
I thought atheists didn't believe in God. Now you say that none of us know. I'm pretty sure atheist say they know.
And seriously why do people keep using words like "we" and "us"? Can't I believe what I believe and you can believe what you want. I have been stating what I believe and the scripture that is the basis for that belief and scripture that states why others don't, if you believe it great if not so be it. It seems to me that the ones who are trying to convert people to their beliefs are the one saying things like "I suggest we" and "lets take the".
ps
Hi crack.
May 22, 2009 at 5:26 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
I have done it again....First it was yolk for yoke......Now it's plutonic for platonic. No open_eyes I did not mean that I loved you as a subterranean igneous rock formation.....but rather in a non-sensual academic sort of way. My subterraneanly deep apologies.
May 22, 2009 at 5:45 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
seriouslyfolks......I will try to answer both your questions, but let's take the easiest one first. I believe I said exactly what you are saying as part of my last post on the Darfur thread. In summary that was how all of us have taken different paths to come to our own beliefs....and on a personal level we should be allowed those beliefs unto ourselfs.
As to your second point.....I don't really know what atheists believe....nor do I really care. I describe myself as an atheist because I do not accept at face value any god, from any religion, that has been presented to me until now..That was not a decision that was made lightly....but one that came after years of personal soul searching.....and carried with it at the time no rancor or ill-will towards religion in general or christianity in paticular.
But while not accepting the premise of any god that I knew of.....I did not then, nor do I now, rule out the possibility that something out there someplace will convince me there is some entity that is God-like. I would not even begin to speculate that s
uch proof....were it ever to be forthcoming....would come from the religious realm, the world of science, or some combination of the two.
I have recognized from the begining, technically that probably made me more agnostic than atheist. In my own personal view however I saw the term agnostic as some what of a cop-out allowing you to occupy some neutral gray area. This is a personal thing for me and is not meant as
any negative reflection on those that do consider themselves agnostic.
If any of you knew how much I hated to type...and how difficult it was for me.....you would have a better understanding of how much I hate having to give these lenghty answers. But I have also learned that if you don't explain everything in great detail...you are then going to be misinterpreted and subjected to great public scorn and ridicule. To be real honest I'm not sure which one is worse.
May 22, 2009 at 6:27 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
oh4theluvof (anonymous) says...
I personally would like to see more research done in human cloning. I hope to still be around when science finds that at best, we could make robots in flesh and nothing more. You see, science can never, ever, ever reproduce a soul and without a soul, the clone is not human after all. I am certain in my belief that when God said He is the author of life, He made a way for science (the study of His creation) to prove Him right. In my opinion, cloning is the way for science to address that one. It wouldn't be the first time that science has proven Scripture.
May 23, 2009 at 1:02 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
Earlier I made the statement that my conversion to godless humanist carried with it no rancor or ill-will towards religion....but was a strictly personal decision for my life. Unfortunatly that has changed somewhat in the years since.
Not towards the vast majority of christian people that I know, and meet, and deal with every day. Most of them are wonderful people who, like me, are just doing the best they can to get by in an often difficult world. But towards another small but vocal group that practice a form of Christianity far removed from those dear sweet ladies and gentlemen of the First Friends Church I was raised in as a child.
To this small group, freedom of religion seems to mean freedom for them to impose their version of christianity on everybody weather others want it or not. Well that to me sounds a great deal like what the taliban is doing with islamic law. I find this group very frightening for the future of our country, and take little solace in there relatively small numbers. There are not that many actual Taliban either.
Most Christians that I have talked to about this say this vocal minority does not represent their form of Christianity...and I believe that to be true. In fact...they don't represent Christianity at all to me, as I understand the word. But when the Lord High Executioner lopes off you head.....it matters little weather he calls himself Lord High Executioner or your friendly neighborhood butcher.....he has still lopped off your head.
Most of the Christians....and indeed most of the "godless humanist", that post on these boards are intelligent thoughtful people. But you don't have to read much between the lines to identify a few who would be all to willing to institute some form of Christian Sharia law right here in the good ole USA.
Power corrupts....and absolute power corrupts absolutely......and I believe we "godless humanist and religious kooks" must both be vigilent together to keep either extreme from ever gaining control.....because if either one ever did....we would both lose.....JMO
May 23, 2009 at 5:54 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
Sorry.....I got called away on family business before I had the chance to finish....and I believe the finish is very important.
Because I am a humanist....I perceive the greatest threat to my way of life as coming from radical religious zealots....or power and control freaks posing as same. Therefore most of my comments are aimed in that direction.
I do however recognize there are power and control freaks that reside wihtin the humanist community that are equally dangerous to people of faith. And though I don't mention them as often....I believe they are just as wrong as the religious extremist.
You see....I truly do believe in freedom of. and from, religion.....and see the greatest threat to both as coming from either extreme. And I certainly understand and accept that the United States of America is a nation built on christian principles. The principles I have chosen to live by in my humanist life were defined by christian principles. But in my mind....there is a very important difference between America being a nation built on christian principles......and America being a Christian Nation. Its with in that differnece is where lies the rub. JMO
May 23, 2009 at 7:41 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
Here is a question I have had for many years and have never really been able to find a true and valid answer !
What is Christianity, a Christian, Religion, Faith and what denotes having or being any of these ?
It is my humble opinion that, so called, Churches, Religion, etc., in todays world, have become nothing more than Big Businesses and care only about money !
Can anyone tell me that Jesus, while he was teaching and ministering, asked for or demanded any kind of payment in return for his teachings or ministering ? Did god demand payment for his teachings or guidance, other than obeying his laws and having faith in him and his word ?
As near as I can understand, neither Jesus nor God actually forced anyone to believe or follow their teachings or abide by the laws set down by them !
You cannot buy nor purchase your way to salvation or paradise with material wealth, what is in your heart and soul and deeds, will be your way to salvation and paradise !
I do not belong to nor attend any particular church, I also do not believe in any particular religion, however I do have faith and believe I do not need to proclaim myself to be christian or believe in any particular religion to have faith !
Let me tell you a little story.
Almost 10 years ago I underwent colon surgery and died once during surgery and twice, again in recovery, and yet I am still here ! Now I believe that God still has a purpose for me and that is why I am still here and I have not set foot in a church nor donated any money to a church for over 50 years now !
May 23, 2009 at 8:51 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
Another question, please !
What is it about attending a Church, that makes you a Christian or a person of faith or a good person that can do no wrong and better than anyone else !
May 23, 2009 at 9:02 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
biscuitboy
I totally understand what you're saying and I respect it. The Christians you are talking about are dominionists. They believe, as you stated, in changing society through laws and influence to be more moral. I used to think this way but through bible study I have realized this can't work, not the law part anyway. You can't force someone to be moral, they will no doubt have a different definition of moral. The influence part apparently works to a degree as you said you have been influenced by the "good" living of those around you(no doubt nonChristians and Christians).
My purpose and goal in life now however is not to transform society into some kind of utopia, it is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever. They way I do this is through study and prayer and sharing what I have learned with others. Like I said earlier(somewhere) that is why I quote scripture all the time, I understand people aren't going to receive it(most of the time) but if they receive MY words that's all they get, if however they receive God's word then HE's what they get. I don't believe man can please God without receiving Him so the dominionist stance doesn't really jive with my understanding of scripture. They seem to want to change people from the outside(like the Pharisees) where as I believe that God changes people from the inside by them hearing the word and the work of the Holy spirit.
Romans 8
6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Hebrews 11:6
6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
May 23, 2009 at 9:36 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
And seriouslyfolks I would fight as hard to preserve your right to believe.....as I would fight to preserve mine to not believe.
May 23, 2009 at 10:23 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
Thanks for that biscuitboy. It appears that it may come to a fight to retain my right to believe as I do with close minded people like the person that goes by user name God.
methusla
I have never experienced the "church" that you describe. I'm not saying that it doesn't exist but I've been to several different churches and have never been forced to pay anything. For the most part the people I have met there are there because they know they are a sinner and need the redemption that comes from Christ. "Self" righteousness doesn't exist as far as I'm concerned only the righteousness of Christ.
2 Corinthians 5:21
21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
Romans 5:7-9
7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.
May 23, 2009 at 12:11 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
oh4theluvof (anonymous) says...
methusla:
I'm sure you have heard these before, but in case you haven't, I will give the best definitions I know. They still might not be what you are looking for, though. Christianity is just living the life of a Christian. A Christian is someone who seeks in their heart to be Christ-like. Religion is any set of values or rules that compile a belief system. Faith is a belief in the unseen.
Having said that, I need to qualify that there are people who claim to be Christians who do not seek to be Christ-like; they may seek to follow and even force on others the values that they believe Christ had or they may simply attend a church once a week to try to be on God's good side or make themselves feel like good people. These may be the ones that also believe they are better than non-church goers because of a false sense of pride in their prioritizations. For a true believer, however, church attendance is A) following an instruction from God and B) meeting with other believers to encourage each other in the faith and hold each other accountable in love. The second reason is the reason God instructed it--for our own good. Any church that does not view this function as it's primary or even sole purpose is quite possibly not a Bible-believing church. As for the money part, we believers are instructed to give a portion back to God. The purpose of that is to A) acknowledge that He provided all the ingredients needed for us to obtain the money we have and B) to establish our heart's desire.
Humility is a key component that you should see in or hear from a true Christian---admission of their own sin condition (including at the present) and a gratefulness to God for His forgiveness (not an arrogance at being forgiven). The best way to know a true believer or faithful church is to know who Christ/God are through scriptures so you can identify the true following, similar to having real currency memorized so you can easily spot counterfeit pieces.
May 23, 2009 at 5:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
oh4theluvof (anonymous) says...
biscuitboy:
I appreciate your conversation on all this and I hope you don't feel I am pushing or doing any more than sharing the belief I have. I do feel a sense of urgency about it at times and that may come through as pushy, but I don't mean it that way. It is like the analogy of a person trained in architecture/building in the US who goes to a remote region and finds a group of people trying to build a house like ours by way of a partial and beat up magazine photo. They have knowledge about hut building and are applying that to a house they don't actually understand. Their house keeps collapsing and injuring or killing the people inside and they keep trying to change the design, but use the opposite approaches than is correct. That American gets a great sense of urgency to show the villagers how to do it correctly so that no more harm befalls them--he is concerned.
On a side note, the strongest dominionist (to borrow seriously's terminology) I know came from the First Friends' Church. He and I don't agree much. I also agree with you about the founded on Christian principles issue. I haven't heard much more than basic morals attributed to God from quotes from the founding fathers. Actual faith is not something I detect even in their recorded prayers---I would hesitate to say (as they did) that their rebellion against the governing powers was ordained by God based on the way they carried it out. I don't see how the tea party was seeking to be Christ-like :)
May 23, 2009 at 5:42 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
oh4theluvof......Its been roughly fifty years for me also since I went to the First Friends Church with any regularity.....so the fellow of whom you speakmight not have even been there then.....or maybe I just didn't know him.
I didn't initially respond to methusla's question because I didn't feel qualified to speak on the subject....after giving it some thought however, I do feel I can state what I was taught a christian was in my early years.
First and foremost....a christian is a person who believes that Jesus is the son of God and was sent here to die to attone our sins wherefore we might then achieve entry into the kingdom of heaven. To achieve that entry however we needed to strive to live lives that were a glory to God and his son Jesus. Living a life that was a glory to God consisted of things like humility, kindness, compassion, and foregiveness. Truely loving sinners even if you didn't love the sin. And working to show others the power of God's love through your own Christian words and deeds. That's my interpretation....I.m sure others have other ideas.
My interpretation does not necessarily require church membership....but such membership could of course make it easier to "keep the faith". I do believe it is within the context of this interpretation that we rightfully claim America to be a nation built on Christian principles.
May 24, 2009 at 4:05 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
As to the second part of methusla's question....I often have much greater problems with churches than I do with the individual christians that belong to them.
Many churches work hard to live up to those christian principles and ideals that have been laid out by several people posting on this thread.....and to me....the Reverend Lackey's church sounds as if it may be one of thjem. It requires money to do anything now a days as we all know, and I don't begrudge churches that any more than I do any body else.
But when the need for money becomes a hunger for money.....is where I believe the problem begins. And that is made no more clear in my mind, than in the growth of these made for TV mega-churches. When multi millions of dollars become involved, the corrupting influence of that wealth becomes almost guarunteed. And then to protect that wealth there is a growing need to get involved with the operation of governments......and increasing involvement in non-religious things. In my humble opinion you can trace the begining of the rebirth of the dominionist almost directly to the birth of the TV mega-church.
There is a historical perspective to this. Once christianity was adopted by Rome.....its power, wealth, and political influence grew until we eventually were rewarded with the Holy Roman Empire (which to me should be considered an oxymoron).
During the dark and middle ages church excesses grew to legendary levels Who can forget the Pope Innocent who kept his own daughter as a concubine (Lucretia de Borgia), the crusades, the Inqusition, etc, etc, etc. Little of this can be blamed on the millions of christians who at the time just kept living the christian life they had been taught to live. But using my definition of christianity,
the church during this period was dead wrong.
What does any of this have to do with today? Nothing other than to point out again something I said earlier...."Power corrupts...and absolute power corrupts absolutely"....and I believe some of these mega-churches are getting a lot of power.
May 24, 2009 at 4:46 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
Fact Check.....Lucretia Borgia's father and lover was Pope Alexander the VI.....not Pope Innocent. Sorry!
May 24, 2009 at 6:23 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
I guess I'm the only one still on this thread, so I will quit preaching to myself after this one last thought. I see the danger to freedom of and from religion coming primarily from the power of the big churches.
I recognize there are many in the humanist community that would like to see religion go away also. But what I don't see is any concerted organized efforts in that direction....rather just a bunch of individuals spouting their ideas such as my self. If anyone reads this and knows of any such groups I would like to hear about them. (Not because I want to join them...but because I would like to be wary of them.)
May 25, 2009 at 6:01 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
The ACLU.
May 25, 2009 at 8:16 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
Thank you seriously folks. I hadn't thought of them that way but I can certainly understand how people of faith could.The monumental battle that has gone on for years between the ACLU and the religious activist may be the best hope we have for neither side going too far. JMO
May 25, 2009 at 10 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
FatherKelley (anonymous) says...
I've enjoyed reading everyone's posts about my article. I've also appreciated the way that most of you have been respectful of differing views. I wanted to wait until your threads played out and add some follow up comments.
Something that I would like to add from the faith/spiritual perspective: I realize that some very good people do not believe in the Christian god, or any god at all for that matter. Speaking from my own experience and from hearing the experiences of many others, I can only say that belief comes from some sort of personal encounter, not a logical argument. The encounter may be sudden or may be experienced over a long period of time... or it may not come at all. It will most likely not come from me or some other well intending believer trying to ramrod pieces of scripture or theology down your throats. Scripture and theology serve to give language to an on going experience.
The experience of faith is much like the experience of seeing a rainbow. Rainbows are only seen by persons who are rightly oriented between the sun’s rays and the water molecules from a rainstorm. It is only while standing in this particular place and looking in the right direction that one will experience the rainbow. All others will have a non-rainbow. The question becomes, does the rainbow really exist? That depends on where one is standing at the time. Christian faith and the language that it uses is much like a rainbow. Those who are oriented to it, see its reality and power. Those who aren’t, are left to scratch their heads and wonder what the heck religious folk are talking about.
To all of you that do not have faith, I can respect and honor you position. I’ve been in that position myself. But I do ask you to keep your minds and hearts open to the possibility of faith. Don’t become so jaded or fearful of the possibility of something else that if /when it comes to you, you are completely unable to receive it.
May 25, 2009 at 10:53 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
FatherKelley (anonymous) says...
Secondly, in defense of churches: Unfortunately, churches and Christian folk deserve a lot of the bad press that we quite often get. The lure of power, manipulation and comfort is just as strong for us as it is for any other human being or community made up of human beings. However, the press very rarely reports on the multitude of mundane positive things that churches and Christian folk do. And folks who are not an active part of a church community are not going to see all of the big and little ways that goodness is lived out in the relationships in those communities.
Jesus said that where ever two or three are gathered in his name, he will be in the midst of them. This points to several crucial factors about Christianity that often get neglected. 1. The Christian faith can ONLY be lived out in community. I am suspicious of Christians that sit on their butts with their Bibles in their own houses and never connect in an intentional manner with a larger group. This quite often leads to a lot of self-righteousness and more than a few goofy notions about what the Christian religion really teaches. While Christian communities do not always get everything right, there is at least some room for the Holy Spirit to move through the experiences and testimony of more than one person. There must be an intentional community that comes together with a common language and common experiences to be able to prayerfully hash things out. 2. That community must also be present and active in the lives of each member in order to share each other’s joys and bear each other’s sorrows. That’s why the church marries and buries people among the other things that it gathers to do. 3. Sorry folks, we live in a world with an economic system that requires money to function. The church needs to pay it’s bills. Church leadership must live and support our families when we have them. And the church needs funds to minister to the sick, the friendless and the needy. 4. What we do with our time and our money ultimately defines who we are and what values we hold. You show me your date book and your receipts and I’ll show you how you spend your life away and ultimately who you choose to be. When Christians give their time and money back to God through the church, they are making and intentional statement about who they believe it has all come from and who they declare themselves to be. Non-Christians should not be expected to contribute their time and money to the church. Christians who do not give a significant amount of their time and money back to their churches should prayerfully examine why they do not. 5. Because, those individuals who are not willing to invest themselves back into the church become a burden to the community and a bad example to non-Christians.
While this may not convince anyone to change their particular positions, I hope it at least clarifies mine.
Pax Christi, Father K.
May 25, 2009 at 10:53 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
Thank you Father Kelly. Believe me when I tell you I speak from my heart when I say you must be a true man of God.....a Christian of the sort I was taught christians were suppossed to be.
Ironically....a few weeks ago I walked into your church one Sunday morning, for no reason that I could discern other than that I find some churches to be comforting places. Maybe someday I will visit again if you don't think the roof will collapse upon my entry.
May 26, 2009 at 5:52 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
create (anonymous) says...
"Christians who do not give a significant amount of their time and money back to their churches should prayerfully examine why they do not."
Sorry, but I can't accept that. For one thing, too many only make an appearance in church every Sunday and nothing more. They seek no fellowship nor do they contribute time.
For another, what I quoted above is exactly the kind of thing that keeps me away from organized religion. Should this and should that. Baloney!
I do not attend church yet I volunteer quite a lot of my time and give more than my fair share to two local charities, The Salvation Army and SOS because I firmly agree with their missions. I don't have to attend a church to do that.
May 26, 2009 at 6:57 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
I too contribute as much as my meager funds allow to various causes.....SOS--various childrens programs--animal rescue work. I do so not because some organization or religion tells me I have to, but because my heart tells me it is the right thing to do.
This is why I get so angry when told that a humanist is incapeable of having morals or living a just life. Then when I get that angry, I often respond in ways that violate my pinciples and cause me to feel ashamed. Christians don't have a lock on feeling remorse
Much good is done in the name of God...but much is also done in the name of man.
May 26, 2009 at 7:28 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
create (anonymous) says...
I agree, biscuitboy, especially your last sentence.
The headline for this piece refers to "godless humanists," and that disgusts me because that is exactly the kind of name-calling that goes on in organized religion, enough to drive people away. It borders on hypocrisy.
May 26, 2009 at 8:13 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
create, biscuitboy,
I agree with both of you, furthermore churches or as you say, organized religion justify the taking of money as necessary " to pay the bills ", but they do not have to pay anything in the way of taxes, etc., like the people have to do and yet they or at least some of these so called churches and religious organizations are some of the richest organizations and individuals in the world ! I for one do not believe that making and taking of nor the accumulation of material wealth is what God nor Jesus intended for the preaching of Gods and Jesus's word and message !
One does not have to belong to a religious organization or any specific religion to have God and Jesus in their mind or heart and do good things for humanity or live by Gods or Jesus's word ! After all your cannot buy your way into Gods good graces with a donation of material wealth to a church or religious organization, can you ?
I too donate to various humanitarian agencies and organizations I believe may be doing good things for humanity and man !
I also believe that it is not the priest, preacher nor parishoners of the church that have the right to judge me, save me, forgive me for my sins or anyone else and whether my soul will ascend to Paradise or spend an eternity in the torment of Hell, that judgment is Gods and Gods alone ! " Judge not lest ye be Judged ! "
May 26, 2009 at 8:25 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
methusla
Who is judging you? It sounds like you are judging people that go to church to me. Talk about hypocrisy. "but they do not have to pay anything in the way of taxes, etc." What's this "etc." Land? Buildings? Electricity? Water? Food? Transportation? What exactly are these "etc.s" you are talking about? It angers me very much that you can stand up for business owners rights and smokers rights(which I stood shoulder to shoulder with you) but when it comes to religious rights you pick up stones and start throwing. Not cool! I have said it before and will say it again. I had no dog in that fight(the smoking ban). I do not smoke or even drink. Yet I understand freedom and liberty. I knew that others that I stood by would turn their back very quickly on me when it came time to defend a freedom I enjoy. crack was right about most of you. You do not care about liberty but only care about yourselves. I on the other hand stood up for a liberty I don't even use. I must have done it because I'm judgmental and after your money and I'm trying to tell you how to live your life and I'm a religious kook and what ever other religious stereotype you can think of......... yeah that's it.
May 26, 2009 at 9:03 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
Wow ! I didn't think I was judging anyone in my comment, just stating what I see and have seen as fact ! I certainly did not judge you in particular or anyone else for that matter !
Whew, talk about judging and spouting Fire and Brimstone, I as well as others who opposed the smoking ban, appreciate your stand and standing with us !
But to incure your wrath on this subject is very judgmental on your part, not mine !
I was just commenting on my and my familys life experiences with certain churches, religious organizations, etc. and whether you believe it or not there are churches and religious organizations in the world and even this country that do demand, in no uncertain terms that you donate or pledge to give a certain amount of money to them. And to me that is forcing the people of the congregation to pay for Gods word and salvation, and that is very wrong !
And there are also those certain people in the congregation that do look down upon you if you do not attend church or at least attend and donate regularly !
No more comment from me, as in your eyes, I have been judged as a sinner and bad person !
I certainly hope that you have a fruitful and long life !
As I have said before, I will leave my judgement to God, as he/she is the only Judge who may truely judge me !
LOL
May 26, 2009 at 9:29 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
Looks like alot of excellent comments while I've been away, I've enjoyed reading them & catching up.
Thx biscuitboy, I was a little worried there for a minute that "plutonic" had something to do with a Disney dog... LOL :)
A "clone" is really not much different from a twin with a mind of its own, so I'm not sure I understand the cloning/soul reference.
YY4U, I've ran into just as many (probaby more) snobby self-proclaimed-intellectual-urbanites who didn't know their arse from a hole in the ground as you have rednecks, (given the fact that the rural population is a minority, I'm SURE more :). Idiots abound in all walks/sectors of life :)
I also do not believe the small segment of the extreme right represent my Christianity, but I also see a small group on the far left trying to force their brand of non-belief on everyone else just as much. As biscuitboy stated, he recognizes that our nation was founded on Christian principles - how many people from both views honestly have a problem with the Ten Commandments being displayed outside a courthouse that have been there for 50+ years? I mean the Supreme Court has Moses & the Ten Commandments on it, should we demolish the building for that?????
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned yet how Jesus raved against the Pharisee's of his day and how they misused religion. When you want to complain about how SOME churches & organized religions miss the mark you only need to go back a couple thousand years & get it straight from The Man Himself. I personally believe that in most different sects or branches there are always some churches that misuse it, but that may be more of a personal reflection on the pastor or leaders of that church personally than on the particular sect itself. Myself, my faith/non-faith has travelled many routes in my path of seeking understanding, I currently attend a non-denominational church (which adheres to Biblical teachings, not a "new-age-mysticism" type, just to clarify).
Create, I have to smile at your should-this-and-should-that-baloney. For a far, far, far, far, far longer list of should-this-and-should-that, I will refer you to the county courthouse, tax laws, how many feet from my house my lagoon must be, must it be fenced, can I add a shed or onto my house without the proper permits, can I smoke in Emporia, etc........ given all that overwhelming scrutiny, what's wrong with a little Thou Shalt Not Kill/Steal or Honor Thy Mother & Father? :)
FatheKelly, what else can I add to your wise words? Amen! :)
May 26, 2009 at 9:37 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
As to the last couple of comments, seriouslyfolks and methusla are both correct. Churches have utility bills, maintenance, land, transportation, salaries. Yes, unfortunately they are not immune in today's society from having many of the same expenses as any other organization. The question is what else is the money used for - I'm not saying a church can't look nice & have nice things, but just like lots of organizations (United Way comes to mind immediately!!!!!!!) the problem is putting money donated to where it is needed (helping poor, outreach, missionary, etc) - and less on administrivia overhead and/or frivolous finery that Jesus would and was unhappy with.
But just as nobody in church has the right to judge anyone & look down on them for how often they do/don't attend or give, by the same token one has to not judge the entire church on the actions/attitudes of those few. If the majority of the church treats you like that, then I would question whether that church was one I wanted to be affiliated with. I have also been involved in businesses where there was MUCH pressure to give "fair share" to the United Way (lots of pressure to meet the goal and be a "100%" business - I even know of a demotion years ago based solely on that criteria) - is that any different? In other words, it isn't ONLY some churches that behave that way...... non-religious organizations CAN and DO use the same tactics......... so we can't say that is a sole trait of some religious organizations, to be fair. Anyone refusing to set foot in businesses because of unfair pressuring/attitudes?
Remember who Jesus himself said he came here for - he didn't come for the righteous and those who could already see........
May 26, 2009 at 9:53 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
And methusla, per your words "whether you believe it or not there are (???????) organizations in the world and even this country that do demand, in no uncertain terms that you donate or pledge to give a certain amount of money to them. And to me that is forcing the people ......... to pay for (????????), and that is very wrong !
Yes, we all deal with that every year. It's called the IRS. I pay for alot of things I don't agree with. Tattoo-removal machines in California, bailouts, foreign aid to countries that misuse it, fat-cat Congressman salaries, etc....... but they demand in no uncertain terms that I give a certain amount of money to them every year.......... just having fun with your statement, not judging you..... :)
May 26, 2009 at 9:57 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
"But just as nobody in church has the right to judge anyone & look down on them for how often they do/don't attend or give, by the same token one has to not judge the entire church on the actions/attitudes of those few."
This is the point that I was trying to make. Thanks open_eyes for stating it more clearly than I could in my anger. When people make sweeping statements about "parishoners" of whom I am one, I get a little defensive. People appreciated this about me when I was standing up for their cause but not now. I have tried to hold my tongue and only use scripture in my responses but after being beat about the head with many stones of various weights shapes and densities I could take no more and the old man reared his ugly and bruised head. methusla, I apologize for losing my cool with you. I guess when the stones cast at me(a religious kook) came from someone I have grown close to in the trenches it stung a little more than from others. Again I apologize. I sincerely hope that you don't judge all churches or church goers by the ones you have had bad experiences with. I have been to several churches and have never been forced to pay anything. I have been taught the true definition of grace and by definition it is free. I am very thankful that you understand this. In fact I believe that Christian living is some kind of payment to earn ones salvation. I believe that Jesus paid it all and that Christian living is a result of salvation not a means to an end. That is grace.
Galatians 2:21
I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.
May 26, 2009 at 10:47 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
Thanks seriouslyfolks - I would like to mention that the church I attend actually states each time before they pass the collection plate that if you are new or visiting that you specifically NOT add to the plate (unless you really want to) - for visitors, the service is the church's gift to them and they do not want them to feel as if they are obligated in any way to aid financially.
It is attitudes like that that have eventually led me to give MORE than I would otherwise (maybe it was reverse psychology, haha). The Lord loves a cheerful giver. In other words, he appreciates $1 given cheerfully more than $20 given grudgingly because of pressure. Some people in church miss that point. Just as some people in all kinds of businesses/walks of life that have nothing to do with religion do in their own way as well......
May 26, 2009 at 10:57 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
open_eyes
Oh...No Not a disney dog....ROFLOL....
What lead me to make my mis-spelled comment was your willingness to look at and consider both views....and to see relevence in both. And that same willingness has been dominent throughout the conversation on this thread...which I guess is the point Father Kelly was making from the start.
I believe as long as we are willing to listen and respect the viewpoint of others...weather we agree or not......we can keep America as a place of both freedom of, and freedom from, religion.
With the exception of some white-supremeisist groups this country has been very lucky so far in avoiding the violence that plagues so much religious debate in the rest of the world. In his book,God is not Great, atheist Christopher Hitchens recounts his answer to a question he was asked if in a strange city he was to approach a group of men coming his way would he feel better knowing they had just come from a prayer meeting.
In response he named off six cities--(Belfast, Beirut, Bombay, Belgrade, Bethleham, and Bagdad)-- and answered in those cities...and many others....he would be terribly afraid knowing the men were coming from a religious service.
Hopefully we will never have to experience religion gone awry to that degree in our country.....and the best way to avoid it is to keep talking to each other.
Peace and Love to all
May 26, 2009 at 12:45 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
Create, I don't mean to pick at you, but your comments have bothered me and you seemed to take quick offense at some of them. You said that "Godless Humanists" in the title disgusted you, it is the name-calling that goes on in churches, and borders on hypocrisy. Yet in the very same title, only separated by the word "and", is "Religious Kooks". Isn't that name-calling that many people of faith have to put up with as well? Why did you mention one and not the other, when they were put side-by-side? Quick, steer me clear of the subject of hypocrisy in politics since the last election! - LOL
"too many only make an appearance in church every Sunday and nothing more. They seek no fellowship nor do they contribute time" - you have a 100% valid point. But this is the point about stereotyping everyone by the actions of some. If someone at the SalvationArmy or SOS embezzles or swindles, should I label the entire organization as corrupt? Or just the guilty parties? I'm also confused by the fact that you can't accept the statement about prayerfully examining why you are not more involved, but you are also mad at those who aren't involved. Isn't that what FatherKelly is exhorting them to do? Why is it ok for nearly every single organization on the face of the earth to urge people to become more involved within it, except for churches? Do you know how many phone calls I got about voting last fall? I have other charities/events/organizations that are not religious-affiliated that have asked me to become more involved with time/money/both. Why? None of them were "religious kooks", as far as I knew. Besides, I didn't see where FatherKelly was condemning anyone - a Christian should prayerfully examine all of their motives in all parts of their life daily. And he said to merely prayerfully examine - maybe there is a reason - loss of job, illness, working 2 jobs, etc....it is up to each person to examine their own motives - is it because of one of the above, or is it because of just wanting a longer speedboat because the Jones'es down the street got one? Is the reason a permanent pattern or temporary?
It seems Christians are between a rock and a hard place on this one - you're bad if you sit in church and do nothing, but it is wrong for the leader to try to get you more involved. What are we to do?
May 26, 2009 at 2:34 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
open_eyes
Another great post, very good point. What exactly are we to do? Get more unorganized apparently. It seems that everyone hates "organized religion". Maybe it the pews. They are just too straight. Perhaps chairs set up in an unorganized way. Maybe people would hate us less then. LOL
May 26, 2009 at 2:48 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
No, we have to keep the aisles straight. That way when the "tolerant" people who are angry that everyone didn't conform to THEIR views run down the aisles to disrupt church services with chanting & signs don't trip and hurt themselves. But then again, that's the kind of hypocrisy that drives ME away also. I'm just glad the old lady who's cross they tore from her and circled around and stomped on wasn't hurt either.
May 26, 2009 at 4:09 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
As one of my non-too-admiring fans pointed out to me recently there has of course been no shortage of secular monsters in the world either. He mentioned Joseph Stalin....Pol Pot of the Khmer Rouge....and Mao Tse Tung.....all atheist that wrecked havoc upon the world in modern times. To that list I believe you could add Saddam Hussein...though not technically an atheist.....he certainly wasn't religious until towards the end when it became politically convienent for him to be so.
One thing I find ironic is secular despots tend to victimize politcal opponents and their own people more than religions per se....but there are many exceptions to that rule....such as Saddam's persecution of the Shia Muslems......as well as the others. Religious tryrants however usually seem to persecute people of other religions.....as in the six aforementioned cities.
I find that interesting but have no idea why it might be the case.
ts
May 26, 2009 at 6:59 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
I have heard many times that most if not all wars are and were caused by "organized religion"(whatever that is) but what about all the good that people of faith in these "organized religions" do? I know people who loaded up vans full of clothes and food and headed down to Louisiana after Bush caused Katrina. Every year our church puts together gift boxes with donated(gasp) toys for poor children in Mexico for Christmas(gasp again). After the tsunami(sp) we did what we could in the way of donations(gasp yet again) and sent them over. Do these things not count? Do we have to do so much to make up for all the wars? Is there a chart somewhere that shows our progress? Are we making head way at all? Who's keeping track of this stuff? Is there a list that's being checked twice? Is it OK to discriminate against white firefighters because they're white? Perplexing questions all.
May 26, 2009 at 7:35 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
Well....I certainly don't think that I equate all the evil that has been done in the name of religion to the individual practitioners of that religion......In fact....in terms of actual numbers the miscreants are probably quite small. But they are also often the ones that hold the power in the religion as to how it interprets its doctrine and how it allocates it resources. In fact...along with a large number of jews....the primary victims of the Inquisition were christians.
The same can be said of the good that's done in the name of christianity. The good work you speak of is probably done almost entiely buy local congregations of a neighborhood church. But it takes a lot of good works by local christians to offset the bad p.r. caused by one scandal or atrocity commited by someone at the top.
And that doesn't apply to christians alone.....How many million Muslems go through their lives living in peace and harmony with their neighbors and harming nobody. And how much recognition to they get for that after a handful of Islamic extremeist get through with their work.
It's not right when it happens to anybody....but contray to what many christians seem to think....they do not have a lock on being unfairly persecuted. Look around you it happens all the time.
May 26, 2009 at 8 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
seriouslyfolks
As you know I get up early, and it is now past my bedtime. But if you have more thoughts you would like to share I will be glad to respond in the morning.
This "godless Humanist".... enjoys non-debating with you......you "Religious Kook". lol
May 26, 2009 at 8:09 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
People seem to feel pretty good about themselves when they bash on us kooky Christians though, and nobody really comes to our defense that is not one of us. When people start talking about radical Islam(sp) it doesn't take long before someone jumps in and says how good most Muslims(sp) are. When Christianity comes up however no nonebelievers come to our defense, in fact some that claim to be Christians stand in line ready to throw stones at us too. I'm sure others are being persecuted too but I'm afraid to look with trying to avoid all the stones and all.LOL
I have a funny/sad story about Muslims being persecuted. At work one night coming in from break a little baggy full of white powder fell out of a dudes pocket. The authorities were called and they came and got this powder. We suspect it was meth. Nothing was ever said about this within the company. There were Somalians(sp) working for us at the time and they would pray during their breaks. I have no problem with this as I am also a man of faith(albeit a different one). Someone saw this and they were offended or what ever(perhaps it looked too organized, I don't know) and a huge deal was made out of it(they could no longer pray on their breaks). The whole thing disgusted me. We are OK with illegal drugs but a couple of dudes praying is a no go? In that case I was the one to come to the defense of these guys. I pointed out the fact that this is the good ole USA and they should be allowed to pray on their break if they want to. I was looked at like I was crazy.
So is a Church that is independent from a larger organization still considered "organized religion"? I'm confused about what "organized religion" means exactly. I'm sure there are as many definitions as people on here but I'd like to hear a few.
May 26, 2009 at 8:31 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
biscuitboy
Sleep well friend.
May 26, 2009 at 8:32 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
serioulyfolks.......to paraphrase a line in a movie.....I'M BAAAACK
If you go back through and reread my post on this topic you will find numerous statements of my believe that the vast majority of christians are sincere people who live good christian lives. Unfortunately for christians as well as many other groups.....both religious and secular......the old adage about one bad apple spoiling the barrel appears to be the way things are usually viewed. Part of the humanist belief...such as it is....holds that man is inherently good and the one's that aren't are the abhorations. But we too pay the price for the actions of the worst of us.
The one advantage christians have over us in this regard is their ability to fall back on the claim....."well, he wasn't really christian"......that's a little harder for us to pull off...lol
I agree with your story about the muslims at your work place....witnessed a similiar occurance at a place I worked. And I certainly admire your taking a stand...wish I could say I had done the same.
As to organized religion.....my knee-jerk response would be any group of religious believers that accepted a common leader and practiced a written and approved dogma would be considered organized. Before I could go much further than that I think I would have to give it some thought
May 27, 2009 at 5:19 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
I think working in a concerted effort as a group to achieve expressed goals (such as the passage of laws...or affecting changes in government policy) would also strongly indicate organization.
igoogle this morning had a quote from Will Rodgers that I found near and dear to my heart......"I belong to no organized party, I am a democrat." Well said Will.
And seriouslyfolks...while on that note.....Yesterday you made a remark about white firemen. At the time I did not have a clue what you were referring to. I learned this morning watching the morning news. Now since you had this information some time before I did......I'm thinking you must be a lot more organized in your politics than I am. lol
May 27, 2009 at 8 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
I'm curious about Will Rodgers' remark - isn't the Democratic party in favor of more and bigger government? Isn't that somewhat of an oxymoron? Ok, I better stop right there before I hijack yet another thread into a topic that has nothing to do with the original...... LOL...
I've often wondered about the war claims myself, but never done any actual research to verify the balance. I believe with our current news we could add the little twerp in North Korea to the list. Not necessarily war (yet) - but his suppression of his people. But in a way, I guess he does use religion - worship of himself.....
May 27, 2009 at 8:21 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
I guess my Church would be organized then. We have a doctrine(the Bible). We don't try to change laws or anything like that other than individual members voting they way they want. Our express goal is to spread the Gospel message to Emporia, Kansas, and the rest of the world. The parable of the sower is a good picture of this. We spread the seed(the Gospel) and it's good seed but sometimes (more often than not) it falls onto "bad" ground. The work from there is in the hands of God as illustrated in:
1 Corinthians 3:6
I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase.
The Parable of the Sower
Matthew 13
3 Then He spoke many things to them in parables, saying: “Behold, a sower went out to sow. 4 And as he sowed, some seed fell by the wayside; and the birds came and devoured them. 5 Some fell on stony places, where they did not have much earth; and they immediately sprang up because they had no depth of earth. 6 But when the sun was up they were scorched, and because they had no root they withered away. 7 And some fell among thorns, and the thorns sprang up and choked them. 8 But others fell on good ground and yielded a crop: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. 9 He who has ears to hear, let him hear!”
6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase.
May 27, 2009 at 9:08 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
create (anonymous) says...
open_eyes, when I said "should this and should that" I wasn't referring to the 10 Commandments. I was referring to FatherKelley's comment, that those who don't contribute to the church "should prayerfully examine why they do not." That's not part of church doctrine or ten commandments, but just one more "should" that comes out of organized religion that have nothing to do with God's ten rules.
Why should I prayerfully examine why I don't contribute to a church? Within a couple of days after Katrina, I was one of those who brought a pick up load of food, water, and NEW clothing, all at my expense, to the trucks that were headed to Louisiana. I also organized a drive at my school and made arrangements for everything to be delivered to waiting trucks. Is that not practicing doing good and loving my neighbor?
Recently, when Emporia's Animal Shelter ran out of dog and cat food, I loaded up the back of my SUV with sacks and sacks of dog/cat food I purchased at North Reebles with some help from Gary, the manager. I don't remember anyone else on this forum doing that. NOT ONE! What's my point? I don't have to go to church to practice God's rules!!! Not going to church does not make me a bad believer either.
May 27, 2009 at 9:44 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
Actually, create, the Bible teaches Christians to pray for guidance in all areas of their life - so I don't see where this is a "should" that "has nothing to do with God's ten rules". Nor do I see where it is something that comes only out of organized religion. That's kindof one of the major points of the Bible - seeking God's guidance for all one's motives. You've lost me there.
I'm also confused where anyone here has said that what you have done is not practicing doing good and loving your neighbor. I can list alot of things I have done that "NOT ONE" here has helped me do. I don't mean to offend you, you just seem to get extremely defensive on this point, and only point out 1/2 of the argument, as you did regarding the heading, so I can only surmise that somewhere/sometime in your past you have ran into some very bad examples of Christians and churches, and for that all I can say is, shame on them, not on you. I've ran into some very bad examples of people who do NOT attend church also, but I don't judge the whole by them, else I'd have to judge myself. My church attendance has it's periods where it is somewhat lacking also, depending on my schedule and how my life at the time is arranged. But I've never considered that made me a "bad believer". It does help me stay connected with the various goings-on and other's lives better, however. History is full of people who didn't have to get a college degree to be a genius or successful. In alot of cases is sure did help, though. I don't have to spend every weekend at the driving range to be able to play golf, but it sure helps to stay in practice and pick up on some of the finer points now and then that I may be overlooking without being aware of them most of the time.
No, scratch that last statement. There is nothing, absolutely nothing, that can help improve my miserable golf game - LOL :)
BTW create, that upside-down tomato thing I hung up? Some sparrows built a nest in the top of it! I may not have any tomatoes yet but there are 2 eggs! LOL :) (I didn't have to read the directions to grow the tomato but if I had I might have filled it all the way with dirt and thus prevented that from happening - now I have a big problem when I go to water it. There's probably a moral buried in that last statement somewhere :)
May 27, 2009 at 10:16 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
I too take a hundred pounds or more of food to the animal shelter every couple of weeks....don't know if that proves anything about me other than my love of dogs. In fact, as most of you know, my user name is the name of one of my dogs.
open-eyes.....I agree with you about the little twirp in North Korea....now that would have been a jusitfied abortion in my book....JMO
Also don't know for sure about the religious nature of war, or lack of it, during the modern era. Off the cuff I would say the major wars involving America have not been specifically religious......but the troulbles in the six cities I mentioned earlier.....and many other such conflicts in modern time have been specifically religious. Certainly they didn't always involve just christians, and some didn't involve christians at all, But they were all religions of one bent or another killing each other wholesale.
May 27, 2009 at 12:33 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
I think alot of times whether or not religion is the main cause of a war it is used as a political tool wherever/whenever it is expedient to do so. Not only religion, but lots of causes or philosophies can be/are "hijacked" to be used as a tool to further a goal that they may not have anything to do with at their core. I'm not saying there have been no religious wars, just that at times religion may just have been used. And the converse may also be true - some despots in history may have used other things to rally around when religion may have been the underlying reason. Guess we can never know for sure in some cases. I have a feeling, however, that if there were no religion, contrary to what people might think....... people would just find something else as an excuse to fight about. Be it skin color, food supplies, or sports teams.
For many years, America did not live up to one of it's core principles that "all men are created equal" (and unfortunately probably still does not in some cases). But I do not think of our Constitution as a bad document, or the American way of life as flawed because of that - only those who did not live up to and abide by what it proclaimed.
May 27, 2009 at 1:19 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
The movie Valkyrie shows a little how Hitler used "religion" to show that what he was doing was right in God's eyes. It's only a very small part of the movie but it's in there. It should be pretty obvious to learned Christians to see these people who misuse the word of God. As Hitler did they tend to use God to exalt themselves rather than to use their lives to exalt God. This, I think is the problem with most religions and peoples understanding of Christianity. Their seems to be this misconception that "you just got to be a good person". Not a bad idea on the surface but what it does is focuses people on them selves and how good they are instead of how good God is. Pride does not do good things in peoples lives, generally.
2 Corinthians 12:5-7
5 Of such a one I will boast; yet of myself I will not boast, except in my infirmities. 6 For though I might desire to boast, I will not be a fool; for I will speak the truth. But I refrain, lest anyone should think of me above what he sees me to be or hears from me.
The Thorn in the Flesh
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure.
Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that NOT OF YOURSELVES; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
Jeremiah 9
23 Thus says the LORD:
“ Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom,
Let not the mighty man glory in his might,
Nor let the rich man glory in his riches;
24 But let him who glories glory in this,
That he understands and knows Me,
That I am the LORD, exercising lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness in the earth.
For in these I delight,” says the LORD.
May 27, 2009 at 2:06 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
John 6
60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This is a hard saying; who can understand it?”
61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”
68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
May 27, 2009 at 7:58 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
glarson (anonymous) says...
To a forum:
http://www.emporiagazette.com/forums/...
May 29, 2009 at 6:18 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )