Blue_Dog (anonymous) says...

Because HE gave us a heart and a brain and the realization that we are all brothers and we have a duty to stand up to evil.
Your idea of a plan would be that if neighborhood thugs start a fire in your neighborhood and it burns your house "it was meant to happen." So we should just let it burn because "it was meant to be".

May 20, 2009 at 3:47 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

stryker1_25 (anonymous) says...

I'm not educated at all on the subject matter, but I am a soldier. This situation sounds tragic, but how do you suggest we stop it? Our troops are pinned down in two other countries. Two countries that just so happen to border Iran. Now that they're back in the news, its not strategically wise to just to throw troops into sudan. We're not the world police, as much as we try to be. People must fend for themselves sometimes. And I hate to ask the question, but is it even in our best interests to get involved? How does it affect the American why of life? I understand the same question could be asked for Iraq and Afghanistan, but we're there, and thats where our military is focused right now.
God knows exactly what He's doing. If its in His will for America to get involved then we will. If its not then it's someone elses problem. If nothing else, pray for them. It's not going to hurt.

May 20, 2009 at 5:19 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

shoehorn (anonymous) says...

God created a perfect world. It got screwed up when Adam and Eve sinned. Death, disease and destruction are the results of that rebellion. We are now living in a fallen world. God did not "plan" a fallen world. If you accept Christ and repent, God will reveal to you his plan that he has for your life. He also created us with freewill, so take it or leave it. Your call.

May 20, 2009 at 5:28 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...

shoehorn
Exactly!

May 20, 2009 at 5:45 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

As I understand the story.....if Adam and Eve hadn't have screwed up the perfect world God "made for them"......the rest of us would not be here at all. Wasn't lust and that most terrible of all things "fornication" a result of the screw up rather than part of the original plan?

Also, if God knows everything that is going to happen before it happens because it is part of his plan......how is it that he didn't plan on a fallen world? If he did plan for it however...why does Adam and Eve take the heat....weren't they just acting according to his plan? Man they should have gotten a raise or something.

May 20, 2009 at 7:21 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

shoehorn (anonymous) says...

Genesis 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. This is before Eve is tempted, so it tells me that in order for there to be fathers and mothers, there has to be a little whoopy going on. The sin was in disobedience to Gods' word. God, being omniscient, did knew what would happen. He allowed it to happen because he gave us free will. If we weren't created with freewill, we would just be created puppets, incapable of giving and receiving love. The plan is to allow us to choose our way in life, knowing that we individually are responsible for the results of those decisions, and where we will spend eternity. biscuitboy, are you union? It seems to me that you believe everybody is entitled so something. My faith tells me the opposite. That is why Grace is called a gift. You can't earn it, and you don't deserve it, but if you ask, you will recieve it.

May 20, 2009 at 8:01 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

shoehorn (anonymous) says...

In rereading my post, I noticed something that I wanted to clarify. While Gen2:24 says what it says, I am not saying that there were any children before the fall, just that the scriptures already address it before the fall.

May 20, 2009 at 8:04 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

There is another one of those conundrums.....if God was talking about a man leaving his father and mother and cleaving unto his wife before Eve's temptation what father and mother was he talking about. He was their father.....they had no mother....so what up? They must have been so confused....and so am I.

May 20, 2009 at 8:12 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

oh4theluvof (anonymous) says...

biscuitboy:
As I suspected, you are unfamiliar with the Bible and so have not understood correctly. In Genesis 1:28: God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground."
The disobedience that introduced the fall came later in actual time as well as in a later chapter (ch 3).

The second question about God knowing what is going to happen has an answer that can be hard to grasp. (By the way, once again, the fall wasn't part of His perfect plan) God created us as a display of His attributes--perfection, omnipresence, omniscience and omnipotence. One ingredient He included was to give us the ability to choose to go against Him because only an all-powerful Being could overcome that on our behalf if we did choose that, and only a perfect Being would love a rebellious creation enough to bother doing so. When we also know that He, by being all-knowing, knew in advance that we would make use of that choice to rebel and went forward with His perfect plan and then with His plan to save us from our own error, it showcases those attributes above like a diamond against a black background.

I hope that is an understandable way of wording things so I didn't just confuse everyone.

May 20, 2009 at 8:25 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

oh4theluvof (anonymous) says...

Genesis 2:24 was outlining the principles of marriage for Adam and Eve to know as they raised their children so they would A) pass along the information, B) not interfere with it as parents by clinging to their grown children.

May 20, 2009 at 8:30 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...

Romans 9
Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As He says also in Hosea:
“ I will call them My people, who were not My people,
And her beloved, who was not beloved.”
26 “ And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them,
‘ You are not My people,’
There they shall be called sons of the living God"

May 20, 2009 at 8:35 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

outsidethebox (anonymous) says...

The reason we have not intervened in Darfur and Sudan, is that there is nothing there that America needs.

May 20, 2009 at 8:39 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

shoehorn (anonymous) says...

God is not bound by time as are we. He knows the end from the beginning. We don't. We each have our "part" to play, but without the advantage of seeing the outcome, so we must run on faith.
Matthew 22:43-45 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?

Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

May 20, 2009 at 8:42 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...

Surely the suffering of this world can not compare to the wrath of God and He patiently withholds it even from those that hate Him(vessels of wrath) to make His glory known to those that love Him(vessels of mercy). He could have justly chucked it all after the fall but He loved His creation and made a way to redeem it. It surely does look like a mess now, like the back of a tapestry, with threads going everywhere not making sense but when redemptive history comes to a close we(the vessels of mercy) will see the front of the tapestry and it will be a beautifull picture of a Holy and Righteous God.

May 20, 2009 at 8:52 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

shoehorn (anonymous) says...

outsidethebox, sad to say, I believe you are right. governments usually only get involved, it seems, when there are points to be made with "the people back home". You will probably find that the groups that are trying to make a difference in these pollitically unpopular causes are NGOs. I wouldn't limit that to just the United States. As a nation, we lead the world in charitable causes. Since we only represent what, 4-5% of the world population, yet we as "a glutinous nation that consumes 25% of the worlds commodities" (while accounting for 25% of the worlds economy, i.e. production, that part always seems to get left out, hmm.) I believe we do more than most of the rest of the world combined. We, as a nation cannot save the world from itself in every instance.

May 20, 2009 at 8:55 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

shoehorn (anonymous) says...

seriouslyfolks, I like the way you worded it. It brought to mind 1 Corinthians 13:12-13 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity. I know that only verse 12 is similar to what you posted, but I couln't just ignore 13, especially with the topic of the posts. :)

May 20, 2009 at 9:01 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...

1 John 3
2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

Here is another one that is encouraging.

May 20, 2009 at 9:06 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

shoehorn (anonymous) says...

John 14:25-27 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

May 20, 2009 at 9:19 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

esu4life (anonymous) says...

The religion nuts and zealots are alive and well. The majority of the world's wars and problems throughout history is caused, not by religion, but the dogma of the four great religions of the world. The right thing to do is to stop this genocide, but we as a people seem to ignore what is right and try to explain away problems based upon our interpolation of religion. People support the right thing!! "The purpose of human life is to serve, with compasssion, and the will to help others."

May 21, 2009 at 4:15 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

shoehorn (anonymous) says...

Mt.5:1-48

May 21, 2009 at 6:04 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

oh4theluvof......your answer to the second question was as good a one as I have ever heard. Don't panic...you are not about to convert me....but it was a good logical answer to a complex question. Good enough that I can't just give a knee-jerk response, but will have to think on it for awhile.....I hate it when that happens!

As to Darfur, I have to admit I know little about what's going on over there but have seen enough to know it is a humanitarian tradgedy of the highest order. Why we...and the rest of the world....have been so reluctent to act more than we have is a real mystery to me. But at the risk of once again being labeled a reverse raciast, it seems that is often the case when Africa is involved. And I don't understand that either.

These are hard things for an opinionated old goat like me to have to admit. I must be feeling very introspective this morning. I also hope everyone has as good a day as their life and beliefs will allow them to have.

May 21, 2009 at 6:07 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...

Matthew 19
3 The Pharisees also came to Him, testing Him, and saying to Him, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for just any reason?”
4 And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made[a]them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,' 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? 6 So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”
7 They said to Him, “Why then did Moses command to give a certificate of divorce, and to put her away?”
8 He said to them, “Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. 9 And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery.”
10 His disciples said to Him, “If such is the case of the man with his wife, it is better not to marry.”
11 But He said to them, “All cannot accept this saying, but only those to whom it has been given

Here is a good passage showing the effect of the fall(the hardness of man's heart) on creation.

May 21, 2009 at 7:13 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...

I really enjoy these threads that talk about Christianity. I know that those that bring it up do it out of hate and antagonism but I thank you anyway. As Joseph said to his brothers after they betrayed him,"But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good".
God took your venomous words meant to sting and turned them to encouragement for at least 3 of us(shoehorn, oh4, and myself).

Romans 8
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.

This is perhaps the biggest understatement ever but I must say, God is good.

Romans 10
8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”(that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

If you deny yourself and take up your cross and follow Jesus, God will turn evil to good for you too. The evil will still come but He will give you peace in the midst of it.

Grace and peace to you all.

May 21, 2009 at 7:30 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

under_score (anonymous) says...

biscuitboy, or should I call you Patrick Kelley, spoken like a true liberal. I have heard you constantly criticize our involvement in Iraq, where we removed a brutal dictator who gassed women and children and tried to exterminate an entire minority. Now, with the same thing going on in Darfur, I wonder how long it would take you to turn your back on our troops once they were there.

You do know that some of the people over there would not welcome us with open arms right?

Did you know that we may have to kill some of them?

Allow me to generalize here for a moment: biscuitboy is either union, a member of academia, or has been on welfare most of his life. He is always looking for a handout, is smarter than the "idiot christians" who believe in God, and his intelligence has gotten him.....wait for it....wait for it....nowhere in life but unhappy because the boogeyman has dealt him a bad hand.

Why don't you just get a pan and set out in the street and beg, at least it would be a more "honest" living than waiting for the gov't to take it from me to give to you. Better yet, give me your address and I'll just send it to you in the mail. We can cut out the middle man and you don't even have to get off your couch to go beg.

Sorry to sidetrack the already sidetracked forum but I'm tired of this idiot.

May 21, 2009 at 7:37 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

under_score.....

As I have come to expect with your post you are wrong on all counts!
.....first.....(and this will probably sound like a cat scratching a blackboard to you)....YES, I AM A LIBERAL AND PROUD OF IT.....
......second....since you apparently have a limited capacity to remember things.....the one good thing that has come from Iraq (the removal of Saddam).....was not the reason we went to Iraq. We went to Iraq because of a lie....remember weapons of mass destruction?
....third...more people don't welcome us now than at any other point in our history.
.....fourth....if you are thinking about going in to generalizations for a living...don't give up you day job. I do have a bachlors degree.....I have worked productively my entire life....have never belonged to a union (though I believe they have some value protecting working people from attitudes like yours).....have never drawn one penny in welfare (nor in tax breaks for the wealthy. or in farm subsidies). I do now draw social security but I continue to pay into it as I draw by still working full-time. So much for under_score's generalizations huh.
.....fifth.....I am not smarter than all christians.....just a few idiots among them.....but I have never been happier in my life than since I got out from under the yolk of Christianity.

......Lastly....I will not stoop to your level by calling you an idiot but I will suggest that if you are looking for idiots you might look within. You may think tirades such as yours will intimidate me into going away....but once again you are wrong as always. It only inspires me to try harder to draw you into making a fool of yourslf with post such as your last one. Thank you!

May 21, 2009 at 8:30 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...

Matthew 11
28 Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”

Galatians 5
1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.

The religion of christianity can be burdensome but the Grace that Christ brings is liberating.

May 21, 2009 at 8:54 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

madpoet (anonymous) says...

I think we should all just pray for the people who can actually change this situation in Darfur to do so. We can't do much except pray for the best. Free will says people will do what they want. We can't send troops everywhere to enforce good behavior. If everyone 18-45 was in the military service, it still wouldn't be possible. It may be possible to find some charities that work over there to donate to if you want to help. I saw something on the news recently about solar cookers someone invented so the women in Africa wouldn't have to leave camp to get firewood to cook. That was when the poor women were attacked, trying to feed their families. A web search might turn up that charity. They took donations for the cost of materials and shipping them over there. It's amazing how little things like that are the best help we can give them. I know UNICEF is a good charity,too. And many churches run missions in Africa.

May 21, 2009 at 10:59 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

under_score (anonymous) says...

first.....duh
second....the only lie is the lie that the reason we went into Iraq was because of weapons of mass destruction. You need to stop smoking crack, watching Keith Olbermann, and go back and look at the actual reasons for the invasion. Only lemmings were positive that Iraq had WMD.
third...Even if this was true, and I'll be waiting for your proof that it is, who cares? Most people understand that when you are at the top, there are people who want to see you fall. Your argument is that we should fall so that "people will like us".
fourth...That's surprising, Bachelor of Fine Arts then? Something went wrong somewhere, I'll figure it out.
fifth...yolk of Christianity? Please explain how Christianity held you back, I'm sure that is a very interesting story.
Lastly....I'm glad I have that power over you. What do I have to do to motivate you to stop supporting the destruction of America?

I've know several goodoleboys, I've worked with several goodoleboys in the past. You sir, are no goodoleboy.

May 21, 2009 at 11 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

Bachelor of Science oh intuitive one......If your comprehension and learning skills are as limited with everything as they are with me then you are in pretty bad shape ole buddy......
Now...I don't need to prove anything to you because I was not talking to you when you interjected your blather into my conversation.....you believe what ever you want. But you better learn to do so in a civil manner or I will report you for violation of your TOS agreement.

May 21, 2009 at 12:17 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

P.S. my learned friend.....search as I may.....I can not find one single time when I ever claimed to be goodoleboy.....or a goodoleboy. Is this just another one of your hallucinations?

May 21, 2009 at 12:35 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

madpoet (anonymous) says...

I assume biscuitboy means "yoke" not "yolk." I find that error rather amusing since he/she is going on about how well educated he/she is...We all have typos but that one was funny since yolks are the center of the egg and most Christians hold their faith as the center of their beliefs. Freudian slip, maybe. :)

May 21, 2009 at 1:21 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

under_score (anonymous) says...

goodoleboy, biscuitboy, crackinsack, whats the difference? Reading your comments is like reading any other of the close-minded opinions of the far left on this board.

Your so called civil conversation that I interjected myself into was the typical, run of the mill, I'm smarter than you and here is why, anti-christian blather that my Philosophy professor used to press onto the poor children in his class.

I haven't been threatened by a tattletale since grade school. Thanks for the laugh and feel free to report, it will save me from wasting valuable minutes from my day responding to your drivel.

I don't know why I respond in the first place. I guess I just feel a need to help the unenlightened among us.

May 21, 2009 at 1:24 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

open_eyes (anonymous) says...

Anytime ANYTHING good happens in the world, crackinsack, how do you know for certain somebody, somewhere in the world didn't pray for it? Seems to me nobody can PROVE either way that prayer does or doesn't help ANYthing.........

or can they?

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id...

or maybe they can't?

http://www.redorbit.com/news/health/1...

Or maybe they can do both?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Efficacy...

Just-another-glad-I'm-not-under-Sharia-"yolk"-person.... :)

May 21, 2009 at 1:52 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

open_eyes (anonymous) says...

Was she any relation to Frazier Crane's wife on Cheers? :)

May 21, 2009 at 2:06 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Steve_Corbin (anonymous) says...

Can't we all just get along?

May 21, 2009 at 2:12 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

oh4theluvof (anonymous) says...

madpoet:
Here's an article link to that story you were talking about:http://www.rd.com/make-it-matter-make-a-difference/make-it-matter-helping-refugees-in-darfur/article109459.html

It includes this link to the project organizers: http://www.jewishworldwatch.org/

under_score:
Your attack which included an implied defense of Christianity without actually doing so isn't helping. Colossians 3:12, Galatians 5:22, 23

May 21, 2009 at 2:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

under_score (anonymous) says...

I'm not going to look those up. :)

May 21, 2009 at 2:55 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

oh4theluvof (anonymous) says...

Afraid of chastisement, or have more in common with the others than you care to admit?

May 21, 2009 at 4:58 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

madpoet.....I have often found myself more in agreement with you in the past than out of agreement.....I regret that your attitude about me seems to have changed considerably since I outed myself as to my religious beliefs. If I am reading more into that than is there however I will apologize.

As to my "bragging about my intellegence"......I was only responding to some rather caustic accuasations that had been made about me. I hope my feelings about religion don't mean I have to sacrifice my right to defend myself. Thank you for pointing out my spelling error. Yes I did mean yoke...not yolk.....and I can appreciate your wishes for it to be a Freudian slip.

If I however were to begin pointing out all of the mis-spellings and typos that appear on these boards there would be little time for anything else. And since none of us have achieved perfection (even though a couple of you seem to believe you have) I generally prefer to ignore those errors. I'm sorry if others don't feel the same way.

One more thing....going back to early this morning.....I am very sorry that I wished some of you a good day.....I will try not to let that mistake happen again.

May 21, 2009 at 5:20 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Steve_Corbin (anonymous) says...

Hey everyone, HOW ABOUT THOSE ROYALS?

May 21, 2009 at 8:27 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...

Royals?
That's baseball, right?

May 21, 2009 at 8:36 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Steve_Corbin (anonymous) says...

YEP, BASEBALL. LET'S ALL TALK ABOUT B-BALL!

May 21, 2009 at 8:50 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

PocketKings (anonymous) says...

not our problem. (Insert flame here)

May 22, 2009 at 1:20 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

Just wanting to push this to forum.....I want all of this thread to become part of the permanent record.

May 22, 2009 at 4:23 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

oh4theluvof

You are obviously an intellegent person.....and probably well educated. Probably more so on both counts than my much celebrated "intelectual arrogance".....and I do enjoy discussing things with people who are smarter than me. That is after all how we learn new things.....a lesson that could well be learned by some who post frequently on these boards.

Before we were so rudely interupted, you had given me a very well thought out...(in my opinion).....answer to a question I had raised about God's view of man's free will. Forgive me however....(and I do not mean this arrogantly).....but it still sounds to me to be a case of trying to make reality fit the dogma.

If we were created as a showcase of god's attributes, who was he showcasing them do....himself or us? And if us...why did did he need to create us just to showcase himself to us?

But that aside....the more important thing I'm still not getting....is why if, he gave us free will, in order for us to disobey him, so he could then in turn forgive us, there by showing his perfection, is Adam and Eve's disobedience not part of the perfect plan. By the same token....if it is not part of the perfect plan...why wasn't it part of the plan...and then doesn't that suggest that the plan was not perfect

Believe me when I say that I am not trying to be an arrogant a--hole here. These issues were raised by other posters than myself....and I was exercising what I believed to be my right to question and comment on those issues. The same right many posters have no qualms about exercising when I express an opinion.

But oh4theluvof, I'm sure you are smart enough to realize the preceeding paragraph was not intended for you.

May 22, 2009 at 8:04 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/playe...

Posted by YY4U (anonymous) on May 22, 2009 at 12:37 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Wasn't Ralph Houk from Americus, KS?

Posted by PocketKings (anonymous) on May 22, 2009 at 1:20 a.m. (Suggest removal)

not our problem. (Insert flame here)

PocketKings
I don't think anybody will flame you for saying that Ralph Houk being from Americus is not our problem. It seems to me that not as many people are really passionate about baseball like they used to be.

May 22, 2009 at 8:19 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

under_score (anonymous) says...

oh4theluvof,

I just don't look up references or follow links from message boards. My comments toward biscuitboy were not intended to defend christianity as much as they were intended to out him as being arrogant for thinking that he is smarter than people who believe in God.

He is part of a group of people who are quick to point out the weak spots in the Bible but have not turned a critical eye to the shortcomings of Science. Something that both are missing and that humans will never be able to comprehend is where did it all start. Was there only God, then he created everything? Where did God come from? Same for science. Before the big bang, what was there? Nothing? Can you comprehend the creation of something from nothing? I cannot.

May 22, 2009 at 8:40 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGCxbh...

May 22, 2009 at 8:58 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

God (anonymous) says...

You're exactly right, under_score. I can tell you that religion, however, isn't the answer.
If we keep believing in the stories of the Bible, we'll never have a chance at comprehending the truth.

Put down the fairy tales and open your minds.

May 22, 2009 at 11:36 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

open_eyes (anonymous) says...

biscuitboy, those are excellent questions you raise, and questions that probably every Christian grapples with. I wonder, often, are we even capable of understanding? If this universe had a creator, which implies an intelligence/force so much beyond our own we cannot even comprehend it, then how can we hope to comprehend and understand His plan with our little tiny puny finite minds? Perhaps science will eventually progress to the point where we can begin to understand tiny parts of this grand design - superstring theory already tells us there are as many as 10 dimensions - can anyone tell me or describe in layman terms the other 7 besides what we can sense? Could it be that the "spirit world" is simply existence in another of these planes? Anyone ever watch "Down the Rabbit Hole"? If an atom nucleus was, say, the size of a basketball, electrons would be circling at a distance of roughly..... 20 miles...... nothing ever truly "touches" anything else.... spooky action at a distance..... particles on opposite sides of the universe instantly know if/when one of them has been altered... etc...... (I love to get into this esoteric science stuff :). So yes, on the one hand, we can only know "God" in an extremely, limited way. But on the other hand.... how can we also say just the opposite? I don't know... but as I stated awhile back on a thread, whether the world is 6,000 years old or 6 billion doesn't figure into my faith in any meaningful way, etc....

under_score.... St. Thomas's Aquinas 5 Proofs for the Existence Of God. You nailed it.

Anyone ever read the book "Contact"? A part at the very end that they left out of the movie....the chapter "The Artist's Signature" or something like that.... loved it.... perhaps someday science will uncover something like that.... for those of you who know what I'm referring to......

May 22, 2009 at 12:12 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

under_score

You may be amazed to hear that I agree wholeheartedly with your last post...and science provides no better answer to your question than does religion. The reason I accept the science version more readily than the religious one is the admission of science that they do not have all the answers....that the learning is an on-going process that is far from complete.

The religious answer....at least as I understand it.....is a foregone conclusion that then tries to get the facts to fit the teachings. None of this means that I think I am smarter than
Christians. In fact, most of the greatest minds of the past few thousand years, have struggled with these things and have come up with many different answers. All I am trying to do is understand.

May 22, 2009 at 12:18 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...

I'm originally from Americus.

ps
Antagonizing and trying to understand are two different things.

May 22, 2009 at 12:25 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

seriouslyfolks......How have I antagonized in a way any different than others have done to me?.......Please explain.....How were my remarks more antagonistic than some of those directed at me yesterday as an example?

I would love nothing better than to continue this discussion right now. But unfortunatly I must leave now and get back to work that place I go everyday to earn my keep and pay my taxes.

I'll rejoin you later......

May 22, 2009 at 12:37 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...

That comment wasn't really meant for you biscuitboy. I'm sorry it came out that way.

Opened as Royals Stadium on April 10, 1973, it is recognized throughout baseball as one of the game's most beautiful ballparks. Since then, many exciting games have been contested, including the 1973 All-Star Game, three no-hitters, playoff games in 1976, '77, '78, '80, '81, '84 and '85 and seven World Series tilts in 1980 and 1985. The facility was officially renamed in honor of Ewing M. Kauffman in a ceremony at the stadium on July 2, 1993.

May 22, 2009 at 12:48 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

open_eyes (anonymous) says...

Dog backwards, (since I refuse to call you by your handle) - how can you say with any true knowledge that religion is NOT the answer? If you can't explain the above points that under_score brought up, then it seems that you also cannot claim to eliminate anything either.
As for the Bible being "fairy tales", much of it is a historical account that has been proven time and time again. Archaeologists are unearthing evidence often that confirms biblical accounts of history. So by "fairy tales", I assume you are referring to either or both the first few chapters of Genesis, and the story of the Resurrection. As for Genesis - lots of it probably is symbolic stories, taken from old, handed down, etc.... for instance the flood account comes from an older Sumerian account which is very similar. Who knows? But many "legends".... are based on some facts, and often have at least a germ of truth in them. But as I've said, it doesn't matter to me whether the old Genesis stories are symbolic legends or what they are. As for the Resurrection..... that is for each of us to decide for themselves.

May 22, 2009 at 1:20 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

open_eyes.......As it applies to personal beliefs I could not agree more with what you said. Neither side....(religious or secular).... can really prove their stand. So in the end, we all chose what works best for us and live our lives accordingly.

As such...it really shouldn't make any difference to us.....how the other guy believes as long as we are happy with our belief. And believe it or not....that is the way I feel. I have no desiere at all to disparage any person's beliefs.....but I do also staunchly defend my right to have my belief.

And when beliefs are brought up....and people start stating theirs...and questioning mine.....I feel I have the right in this land of freedom of religion to state mine just as they state theirs. I am not trying to destroy the church or to destroy this country. I'm only exercising the same rights as others.

Nothing more....Nothing less.....

May 22, 2009 at 3:48 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

oh4theluvof (anonymous) says...

Wow, I am sorry I wasn't able to be here this morning. Sadly, I have only a few minutes right now and won't be able to say all I'm sure that I'll want to say. As it is, I realized last evening that there were three things I wanted to say that I forgot and never got posted. Ah, well..........

under_score:
I understood what you were getting at and appreciate your attempt to level the debating field, but I wanted to make sure everyone else was aware that you were not, in fact, representing the faithful.

YY4U:
(one of the items I forgot yesterday) A saint is just a sinner who has faith--nothing more.

biscuitboy:
Sometimes, when the hugeness of God is overwhelming me and I find myself thinking in circles, it helps to think of how I would think if I were the inventor of an android. How would I expect that robot to respond to me as it's designer? Would it matter why I made it or could the answer be as basic as, "Because I could." I am not saying that that is God's reasoning, but if it were, as the Creator, isn't it His prerogative? Also, I have to stop and think of how I expect my kids to respond to me for my sacrifice in getting them into this world. I tend to believe that they should be grateful for it. These are imperfect expectations that God doesn't even have for us, knowing our imperfection. I have proven my imperfection repeatedly throughout every single day of my life so I know I can't possibly understand the reasoning of true perfection. My point that I think I failed to express simply in our earlier conversation about knowing right from wrong was this. I don't believe that we would have a point of reference to know right from wrong if it wasn't for the Bible: God's instruction for righteousness. I believe that if left to our own devices, we would never have known what right was. Christians don't have the market on morals, but God does. I also believe that God has proven His perfection by loving humanity despite our rebellion and telling us what right is so we can experience good in this life, so I can also trust that He is going to take care of me--that He is not out to hurt me in any way. It is that trust, then that leads me to have a heart of faith in Him concerning the spiritual conundrums that can confuse my intellect and even make my head hurt. I do not in any way think that I or any other Christian has all the answers (contrary to under_score's belief) but I believe God does and reveals them to us as we are ready for them. We can't handle all of them in these imperfect minds, though, just like we couldn't handle being in His direct presence in these imperfect bodies.

Once again, I find myself just hoping that all I said didn't just bring confusion. And, by the way, I have no expectations of converting anyone---I don't have the power to do that.

May 22, 2009 at 4:57 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

seriouslyfolks....now it will be my next to the last post on this thread.that I was refering to in my last post on the godless-kooks thread....Oh....never mind....lol

oh4theluvof......Once again my friend you make a very compelling argument for a very complex theological connundrum. I am sure it would be extremely helpful to believers struggling with this question. But as you already know.....without the core belief to base it on...it is still just an unproven dogma to me. In my mind that does not mean that I have nothing to learn from you....and perhaps you from me. Only a closed mind can gain nothing from an honest discussion of differences. JMO

May 22, 2009 at 6:52 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

oh4theluvof (anonymous) says...

YY4U:
I wasn't calling THEM sinners. I was calling us ALL sinners.

Romans 3:23 (New International Version)
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Have a great Memorial Day weekend, everyone!! Thank you to all of our Veterans---especially those who gave their all.

May 23, 2009 at 12:49 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )