Find a church home
the Rev. Norbert Tegtmeier
Friday, May 15, 2009
We are in the middle of a very busy time. The month of May brings with it many activities and many milestones in the life of a family.
In our congregation, we celebrate the rite of Confirmation on the first Sunday in May. This year 14 of your young people made a public confession of their faith and, for the first time, celebrated the Lord’s Supper with us. It is my hope that they remember this milestone in their lives for a long, long time.
Last Sunday we celebrated Mother’s Day, and we honored our moms for all the wonderful ways in which they cared for us and looked after our needs. We praise God for them and pray that moms everywhere will continue to be Christlike examples to their children.
For the next couple of weeks those children, some of whom have now grown into young adults, will be celebrating as they graduate from high school and college. Another great milestone in the life of our young people.
The last week in May we will celebrate Memorial Day, as we remember those who have gone before us to preserve the great freedoms with which God has blessed us in these United States of America. I know of several young couples, who, during this month of May, will be united into the holy estate of marriage. These couples, as they stand before God and their family and friends, will commit themselves to each other as husband and wife for the rest of their lives.
The common thread in all of these celebrations is the fact that they are “family milestones.” They remind us over and over again how important family is to the very core and well being of our society.
As we take a look at our society today, there is so much that would pull families apart. Consider for just a moment how often you, as a family, spend some time together. With all the activities in our lives, that becomes more and more difficult. And so our Lord encourages fathers and mothers, as well as children in their life together.
Listen to what God says to those of us who are fathers and mothers.
“Fathers, do no exasperate your children; instead, bring them up in the training and instruction of the Lord.” Ephesians 6:4
The Lord says, spend time with your children, especially teaching them to know the Lord.
And to the children this same God says, “Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. Honor your father and mother...” Ephesians 6:1
And immediately before these words to parents and children, Paul speaks of the relationship between husband and wife and reminds them to honor and love each other in the marriage relationship. So you see, our Lord knows family and he created family to be the center of our lives together.
Where there are healthy family relationships, there are healthy children and parents.
So I would encourage you to consider some family activities to help make your relationships even stronger.
Celebrate the milestones in your family. Make a big deal about those special times.
As a family, find a church home, a place where you can grow not only in your relationship with each other but in your relationship with this God who loves and cares for you.
Share in some family devotions. The Lord Jesus longs to be at the center of your lives together.
Forgive each other. God, in his great love for sinners, offers us forgiveness in Jesus. Forgive as the Lord has forgiven you.
It is my prayer that each of you and your families find joy in celebrating the special milestones of life. As you celebrate, may our gracious God bless you and keep you so that always you may grow together as family!
• “Sunday Sermon” is a forum for Emporia area ministers to share their sermons, thoughts and observations. This week’s sermon is from the Rev. Norbert Tegtmeier of Messiah Luthern Church.
God (anonymous) says...
"...we remember those who have gone before us to preserve the great freedoms with which God has blessed us in these United States of America."
If God has blessed us with these freedoms, why do we have to fight to preserve them? Why did we have to fight to gain those freedoms in the first place? Why doesn't God bless other countries with such freedoms? It seems to me that the actions of man have a lot more to do with “freedom” than God's blessing. (ex: slavery)
I do agree, however, that the family unit serves a useful purpose in society. I think, however, that we have evolved to embrace this behavior because “strength in numbers” was once needed to survive. We found that sticking together in groups made life easier and we then became fond of those around us. This fondness eventually became the love that family members have for one another. You tend to love the people who are there for you; looking after you. It’s a symbiotic relationship, really. In general, the Christian values are good, but you don’t have to have blind faith to have good morals. You can teach your kids to honor their mother and father without saying, “Because God said to.”
Spend Sunday with your real family; the people who have actually done something to deserve your affection and devotion.
May 15, 2009 at 10:47 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
madpoet (anonymous) says...
I find it very distasteful that you picked the user name "God" when you are apparently an atheist. To Christians that is word reserved for our Creator. The true God gave us free will. What we do with it is up to us, we are not His puppets. He is like a parent trying to give us guidance and rules to help us be better people. And I consider the people I got to church with my "church family." I may not agree with them all all the time but what family does?
May 15, 2009 at 11 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
1 Cor 2
14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
May 15, 2009 at 11:12 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
madpoet (anonymous) says...
Thanks seriously! Very appropriate. It seems that too many people are blinded to the Spirit. I have a bachelors degree in biology and can't believe people can look around them and think it's all random. The more I learned, the more I became convinced in a divine force shaping things. Everything is too elegant, too perfect to be just random mutations. Look at the camoflage so many animals have, for example. But people will believe (or disbelieve) what they want.
May 15, 2009 at 1:01 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
God (anonymous) says...
Animals are camouflaged as a result of evolution. Didn't you learn that in your Biology classes? Here's how it works:
Animals that don't blend into their surroundings are more easily seen by predators. Therefore they are often eaten before they can reproduce.(don't pass their colorings on) The animals that blend into their surroundings better aren't eaten by predators as often so they have a chance to pass their camouflage traits on to their offspring. Over years of evolving, the camouflage gets better and better because the best camouflaged animals are breeding together and producing better results. Please research the following terms in your Biology textbooks.
Adaptation
Evolution
Natural Selection
Survival of the Fittest
There is certainly more to our existence than we currently comprehend, but Christianity is not the answer, it's an excuse for not knowing.
May 15, 2009 at 1:24 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
madpoet (anonymous) says...
You should look up how many random mutations are beneficial vs. how many are detrimental. If you really took advanced biology courses, you would know that the odds are stacked so far against random changes adding up to perfect camouflage that it should stretch your credibility to the breaking point. I know some of the ESU biology professors are straight evolutionists while others believe in guided evolution.
As for Christianity being an excuse for not knowing, I wonder what church you went to? Different denominations have different attitudes to all sorts of topics. I invite you to visit the Emporia Presbyterian Church. We have quite a few teachers and ESU professors who attend. I don't think we're close-minded at all. I will admit I have gone to a couple of churches I didn't like since their perspective seemed too narrow for me. Shop around "God," and see if you can't find one that suits you. You will have to be willing to be open, though. A closed hand can not accept anything. Neither can a closed mind.
May 15, 2009 at 2:55 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
God (anonymous) says...
It's usually not "random mutations" that gives an organism an advantage. Usually, the change takes place gradually over many generations. (good traits passed on to offspring) We do something similar when we breed horses, dogs, cattle, and even flowers and fruits. I believe it's called “cross-breeding” to get desired traits in the offspring. Whether it be to get a certain color of flower, a faster horse, a bigger fruit, or a cow with more milk/meat. This sort of thing occurs naturally, but for different reasons. (best chance at survival of the species, usually) Over the course of millions of years, of course, there is certainly the chance for a “random mutation” that actually benefits the species, but I doubt that this was very common.
I have gone to many churches over the years (raised Presbyterian) and studied various religions. None of them provided a reasonable explanation for the ultimate question. If you look at the history of man, similar "excuses" have been concocted over the years. Most of these excuses have since been deemed fairy tales or myths by the civilized population. In time, the Bible will also be accepted as merely the mythical interpretation of events that occurred at a time when men didn't have the answers for what they were witnessing.
Believing the Bible is similar to when a child sees gifts under the Christmas tree and they believe Santa left them because they have no other explanation and that’s what they were told to believe. Eventually, they discover that this isn’t the truth when they stop blindly accepting what they’re told to believe.
Do you really believe the world is only 6000-ish years old? Do you really think there was a boat big enough to carry 2 of every animal on Earth? Do you really believe God made the Earth with Dinosaur bones buried in the ground to confuse us? Do you really think the vast Universe took only 6 days to create? Does that really make sense to a person with a Biology degree? Could it be that people just didn’t know about these things when the Bible was written?
I think it’s time we stop blindly placing faith in something that’s unfounded; it’s the only way we’ll ever discover the real answer.
May 15, 2009 at 3:34 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
God......Thank you for some of the clearest thinking I have heard attributed to you in some time.....
May 15, 2009 at 3:42 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
God (anonymous) says...
An afterthought:
Those detrimental "random mutations" only enforce the theory of Natural Selection. If the animal is deformed it won't be able to mate or out-run a predator. Therefore, it won't be able to pass down its mutation-prone genes. This ensures the Survival of the Fittest where only the creatures with the best genetic makeup survive. This is exactly how animals are able to adapt to their environments over time.
Thank you for the civil dialogue.
May 15, 2009 at 3:47 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
Romans 8
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
May 15, 2009 at 5:17 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
Romans 1:22
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools
May 15, 2009 at 5:18 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
2 Timothy 3:5
having a form of godliness but denying its power
May 15, 2009 at 5:20 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
! Cor 2
6We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9However, as it is written:
"No eye has seen,
no ear has heard,
no mind has conceived
what God has prepared for those who love him"
May 15, 2009 at 5:22 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
seriouslyfolks.....Please believe me when I say I mean no offense or ill-will when I say this.....But as a professed atheist I can assure you that trying to debate an atheist with bible verses is a waste of time.
Since we do not believe the bible is the word of god but a narrative of an ancient mythology.....its effect is kinda like shooting blanks.That does not however mean that I have any desire to belittle your beliefs,,,,any more than I would want you to belittle mine.
And of course our poster"God" has never called himself an atheist but madpoet and I both believe he sounds like one.
May 15, 2009 at 6:33 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
I take no offense to what you say. You pretty much proved the first passage I posted to be true though.
1 Cor 2
14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
May 15, 2009 at 7:45 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
madpoet (anonymous) says...
I don't believe the earth is only a few thousand years old etc. I believe God coached the Bible in terms we can understand. I can't imagine what a million years is, can you? And what is a million years to an eternal being? If you look at the order of creation in the Bible, science has proven out that that is the order things evolved. I believe evolution is the tool God has used to create the world we have now. I know all about natural selection but what are the odds of some beneficial genetic variation occurring on its own? Any change in phenotype has to caused by some genetic variation, doesn't it? And if there's no force directing it, it would be random, right? I started college believing in straight natural selection. The more I realized how very complex life is, the more I became convinced that there had to be a Creator directing it all.
I will not change your mind and you won't change mine.
May 16, 2009 at 12:55 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
1 Cor 2
14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
I'm not arguing, just stating facts.
May 16, 2009 at 8:24 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
1 Cor 2
14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
May 17, 2009 at 8:03 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
Mat 10
37"Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.
1 Corinthians 6:19
19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?
May 17, 2009 at 12:51 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
John 6:44
44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
It looks to me that God is the one who does the converting.
Mat. 13
36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field.”
37 He answered and said to them: “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. 39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. 40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!
Jim Jones = tare among the wheat. Bad tree, bad fruit. He was a pretty obvious one. Not all that claim to be Christians are. There are in fact no good Christians, just redeemed ones.
Luke 18:19
19 So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God.
"I'm not afraid of anything in this world
There's nothing you can throw at me that I haven't already heard"-Bono
May 17, 2009 at 8:26 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
The cover of my Bible doesn't say revised. When they do it's talking about the changes in language not the content. For thinking it's just a bunch of foolishness, you sure protest it a lot.
1 Corinthians 1:27
27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise(yy), and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty
A foolish thing am I.
May 17, 2009 at 8:58 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
Doesn't say anything about Lilith in my Bible. That's like asking where in Moby Dick does it talks about robots. That would be awesome but especially if they were the whale's robots but they aren't there. I could start saying they used to be in there and if there are people who by nature are against Moby Dick they will believe it so they can discredit it.
If you are trying to insult me by saying I will be reincarnated as a monkey you have failed. If I get reincarnated as a monkey that is more than I deserve so I guess that's OK.
Romans 8
19The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed.
I'm going to go kick the dust from my feet now.
See ya on some other threads
Grace and peace to you.
May 17, 2009 at 9:51 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
I too enjoy studying religion...looking at it more as a study in human nature. Ironically my interst in the subject has grown in direct proportion to my loss of believe.
A couple of conundrums I have dealt with since my "conversion" to non-believer.....
.....why with all the promise of eternity in heaven are most christions (the ones I know anyway) so fearful of death when I am not.
.....if the fear of God and his punishment is the only thing that keeps humans from slipping into crime and degradation...(ie...man is inherently evil..), How then do you explain the people who live peaceful, loving, gentle, caring lives that don't believe in God at all. In difference to christians...humanist believe man is inherently good....and the ones that aren't are the exception.
YY4U.....I truly feel shock and sorrow about your experience with the aftermath of Jonestown. What a terrible waste.....and a hideous thing for a young man to deal with. PEACE BE WITH YOU!
May 18, 2009 at 6:25 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
"How then do you explain the people who live peaceful, loving, gentle, caring lives that don't believe in God at all."
The answer to that question is in that man IS inherently evil. There are "good" people that do "good" things but they are doing them for the wrong reason. Are you doing good for selfish gain? Whether it be to make your own life better or even the good feeling you get for helping others? While these are both OK, they leave out the only truly good part, God.
Luke 18:19
19 So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God.
Hebrews 11:6
6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
Romans 8
6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
As far as being afraid of death, I have never been either, even before I was a christian. It shouldn't however surprise people that anyone would be afraid of death. After all, all our senses have ever known is this world. It's like me with politics, as you know I get a little crazy when it comes to that subject. I often have to stop myself and ask why. "Why do you get so entangled in the affairs of this world?" Having examined myself in that area has brought me to a place where I can step back a little and take a look at the 2 parties and see them from a more objective view. That's why I don't feel at all bad about throwing away my vote on a third party candidate that has almost exactly the same principles as I do.
From religion to politics we've covered both the "no-no" topics. As you can see I can keep my religious talk a lot more civil and peaceable than the political, there is a reason for that and it's not me but the Spirit in me.
"I'm not afraid to die
I'm not afraid to live
And when I'm flat on my back
I hope to feel like I did"
Bono
May 18, 2009 at 8:52 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
Faith
May 18, 2009 at 11:59 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
netloafer (anonymous) says...
crackinsack, biscuitboy, YY4U, et all:
I spent many of my formative years as an atheist. The reasons I did aren't really important. Suffice it to say I believed that "religious folk" were weak willed, un-intelligent, prone to believe fables, legends, religious demagogury. I compared them to myself and believed that I was far more intelligent, that I'd gathered the appropiate facts, listened to those I believed to be the wisest men and women, etc. I found it easy to ridicule them. In my circle of acquaintances I used to enjoy the conversation that almost always found us ridiculing believers of all stripes. There was no doubt in my mind they were fools.
I now count myself among the fools. I'm actually fine with that.
We're all free moral agents, free to believe whatever we care to. I'm willing to defend someone's right to so believe to the death if necessary.
I take it as a great badge of honor that some of the most and least intelligent people I've ever interacted with consider me a fool who's out of touch with reality. Better men and women than me have been ridiculed in the same way.
I'm not sure what the point of this mini debate is. If it's about winning an argument I see it as pointless. While there are far more factual things about the Bible than you can see, it's far more important for me to see it as vivid portrayal of human nature and the human condition. It covers the gamut of human qualities, faults, and conditions, from courage to cowardice, from suffering to exhiliration, from loyalty to betrayal, etc. Most of these things are best examined by faith, but I suspect you're wise enought to see that courage, cowardice, beyrayal, suffereing, etc are very real parts of life. They're not wisps and shadows.
But, as I said that doesn't put the Bible outside the realm of value in terms of factual knowledge. There are many scholars who have validated this - the Roman scholar/historian Josephus and the Christian claims for the death and resurrection of Jesus, the innumerable archeologists who use the Old and New Testaments as sources for digs (Jericho, Egyptian chariots being innundated by the Red Sea). etc, etc, etc.
So, I'll continue to maintain my foolishness in the face of all the wisdom arrayed against me and other people of faith.
May 18, 2009 at 12:03 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
A foolish thing am I.
May 18, 2009 at 12:16 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
As I have stated before.....I strongly believe that freedom of religion and freedom from religion are flip sides of the same coin.....and one cannot exist with out the other.
I try very hard not to belittle peoples faith any more than I want them to belittle my lack of it.....Generally speaking however, it has been my experience that the belittling comes more from their side than mine.
Even so.....I do not begrudge them their faith at all until it starts to impact my world.....neither do I try to persude them to think my way until they start trying to convert me.
But when they start writing laws based strictly on a religeous agenda......when they refuse to accept or address real problems in the world because it is all part of "God's plan".....when they let the worst amoung them, (ie the idiot reverend Phelps in Topeka and others like him), go uncahllenged with their lunacys, and the list could go on and on.....I then feel compelled to speak out. Keep your religious world just that and leave the secular world (my world) out of it.
May 18, 2009 at 12:47 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
sundancekid (anonymous) says...
Religion is an interesting thing. It can be serene just as much as it can make blood boil.
My boyfriend and I attend church regularly, it's a great start to our week. The rector is fantastic, and the congregation is the most loving and diverse group of people, and it feels like extended family. We sing, we dance. Great munchies, after the service.
I consider myself spiritual, not religious. Most importantly, I consider my relationship with a higher being* to be personal, thus I do not feel my viewpoints on religion are the business of anyone but myself and the man (or woman) upstairs.
I do not care to listen when others solicit their personal beliefs to me, and I especially do not like it when others mix their religion with politics.
* Please note, I did use the term "God," rather I use the broad term "higher being" when speaking with others whom I am not familiar with which faith they are or are not associated.
May 18, 2009 at 1:18 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
netloafer (anonymous) says...
Biscuitboy
I think I understand. We'd all like to have it our way, all the time. There are times when it's very tempting for me to compartmentalize matters of faith and policy. It's an area where the secularists have the catbird seat. All they have to do is cry for reason and people of faith can be excluded from the public square, because they are not "reasonable." Fr. John Neuhaus has described this as "The Naked Public Square."
You're right. There's enough lunacy to go around. For every abhorent Fred Phelps you cite I can cite ten times as many abhorent secularists (who, mind you, assume they have the intellectual high ground).
Are there any other prohibitions you might have for people of faith other than excluding them from making their arguments from their frame of reference (faith)? Maybe we could be excluded from public participation in anything that matters. I can only imagine how much better things would be without people of faith. There'd be no knotty problems like values to bother with. What a world. Everything would be, as Dostoevsky wisely said, would be permissable. We could kill, skewer, defraud, rob, and commit whatever mayhem we wished on whomever we wanted to our hearts content.
Or should I assume that the value system of the secularist is above all reproach?
May 18, 2009 at 1:18 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
sundancekid (anonymous) says...
Oops! Clarification - Did "not" use the term God.
May 18, 2009 at 1:25 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
sundancekid (anonymous) says...
YY4U: Do you stone your wife? Eat shell fish?
How convenient of you to pick and choose the verses you wish to recognize.
May 18, 2009 at 2:53 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
netloafer (anonymous) says...
crackinsack:
When you used the term "popular" belief was the inference to be drawn that popular belief and religious belief are synonymous?
Your powers of observation are amazing. I've been noodling your statement around for a minute or so, trying to put it in syllogism form. I think it might look something like this:
Religious people believed (some still do) that the world is flat
The world is not flat
Therefore, all religious belief will be proven wrong and believers will feel appropriately foolish for ever having believed.
Amazing. Using that logic I could prove my dog is a cat:
My cat has four legs.
My dog, Fido, has four legs
Therefore, my dog, Fido, is a cat.
I think I will remain a fool, thank you.
May 18, 2009 at 3:03 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Weltha (anonymous) says...
"I would rather spend my life believing there is a God and find out there is not, than live my live believing there is no God and finding out there is."
No, rhetoric needed, thats all I'm going to say on this subject because it is MY belief that- Both sides are fighting a losing battle. Good luck to all of you.
May 18, 2009 at 3:29 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
oh4theluvof (anonymous) says...
crackinsack:
The reason we have faith is because faith is the only path to God. He designed it this way because if He designed it to be through our intellect, we would use that to claim that our justification/sanctification was somehow of our own doing. Our relationship with Him is to glorify Him--to reveal His perfection. Therefore, it has to happen in a way that acknowledges that it comes entirely from Him.
Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
YY4U:
To answer a question you posed awhile back, the lillith passage you quoted was not included in the Canon because it is clearly inconsistent and even opposes the entire rest of the Bible concerning the omniscience and omnipotence of God.
May 18, 2009 at 3:34 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
netloafer (anonymous) says...
crackinsack
I should have known better, but we flat earthers are a stubborn lot. Your logic is impeccable. You're clearly far more advanced than anyone in this part of the world. I would genuflect, but my knees are sore right now.
May 18, 2009 at 4:07 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
oh4theluvof (anonymous) says...
YY4U:
I am not going to harp on this subject as I don't believe I will change the mind of anyone who does not wish to have their heart changed, but if you honestly want to look at some Biblical answers to the questions you alluded to, I recommend this link along with the entire website that contains it.
http://www.answersingenesis.org/artic...
Some excerpts from this link are:
"We read in 1 Corinthians 15:45 that Adam was “the first man.” God did not start by making a race of men..................This also means that "Cain’s wife was a descendant of Adam. She couldn’t have come from another race of people and must be accounted for from Adam’s descendants................Thus, Cain’s wife is a descendant of Adam/man. Therefore, she had to be his sister (or possibly niece). Hebrew readers should be able to make this connection easier; however, much is lost when translated........................This law forbidding close relatives marrying was not given until the time of Moses..........................When the first two people were created, they were perfect. Everything God made was “very good” (Genesis 1:31). That means their genes were perfect—no mistakes." (the sin curse has allowed imperfections to develop and degenerate genetic lines making closely related genetic matches produce deformities)
crackinsack:
In response to "Prove to me the Bible is factual and only then will you have ground to stand on."
The only information about God that we have is the Bible and I gave one of many passages to show you that we are told that the path to God is not through our intellect. I know I'm repeating myself, but this is not talking in circles. Absolute proof of the factual nature of the Bible is found only in the hearts of those who have faith. There is some proof of the Bible's truth outside of that and netloafer kindly illustrated a few for you. I assume from your questions that you have knowledge of the things in the Bible and you have specific items you believe to be lies? I will also not pursue this with you if, as I suspect, you have no desire to change your heart and therefore there is no chance of changing your mind. I only responded because you made an open-ended statement about not understanding why people have faith in the Bible. I was giving you the only answer we have, but I had and have no intention of trying to prove anything to someone who doesn't want it proven. And, no, the truth of the Bible is not usually found to be "convenient"---it wouldn't produce supernatural results if it were.
May 18, 2009 at 4:51 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
oh4theluvof (anonymous) says...
I forgot........
crackinsack:
"The Bible is just the interpretations of men a long time ago.
I've heard this before and have never understood exactly what it means. Interpretations of what? What was in existence that was being interpreted? Just a curiosity.....not looking to challenge.
May 18, 2009 at 4:55 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
netloafer....I apologize for thinking I was dealing with somebody interested in a civil dialogue.....Excuse my error!!!!!
It may come as a revelation to you. But I have never killed, skewred, defrauded (at least intentionally), robbed, or committed other acts of mayham. In fact....I (in a general sort of way) pretty much adher to most of the ten commandments....and have been told by many christians that I live a more christian life than many who profess to believe. I do all of this because I think it is the proper way to live.....and I live my life without the need for the threat of eternal damnnation if I don't behave. In short, I live my life this way because I have values.
And I quite frankly resent your implication otherwise. It appears to me that you have gone a long way towards confirming my earlier statement as per which direction the belittleing usually comes from. I will not wait for an apology because I'm sure I won't get one.
May 18, 2009 at 5:44 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
oh4theluvof (anonymous) says...
"Even so.....I do not begrudge them their faith at all until it starts to impact my world.
I (in a general sort of way) pretty much adher to most of the ten commandments"
This is a conundrum to me as I wonder how the human race came to know good from bad without such things as the ten commandments and other biblical principles to be able to know how to behave as "good" people. I also wonder if they begrudge the knowledge of good that has been spread throughout the world by the faithful, impacting the lives of all of earth's inhabitants.
Just in case this is being read with an imposed uncivil tone, I am sincerely being civil in my tone. This double standard just seems belittling to Christians to me.
seriously and netloafer, I thank God for you, my brothers. You both have been given excellent testimonies which you have not compromised with sinful pride or anger. (Colossians 3:12)
Those of you without faith have my deepest concerns and sadness of heart. I assure you that I do not think of myself above you, but pray that God will visit your hearts and soften them to the blessed Gift He has provided for you.
May 18, 2009 at 6:57 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
netloafer (anonymous) says...
biscuitboy
Apology accepted! You very skilfully confirmed your own prejudices by reading offense into something that wasn't written or intended.
This is more of a one way street than you care to see. I guess it's okay to imply that Christians are all like Fred Phelps or that they're crusaders bent on killing all of their religious enemies.
But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. You weren't implying that all religious people were like Fred Phelps or condoned his behavior. I think it would be good for you to reciprocate. I think you know what I was saying - that there are more than enough Josef Stalins, Pol Pots, Maos, who have passed through this great period of historical advance and enlightenment to go around to more than match the lunatics like Fred Phelps in this social equation. We've all read the history, with a body count in the multiple millions in the civilized twentieth century alone.
I'm glad that you live a good life. I'm not here to inspect or direct your eternal destiny. Your soul (hopefully you're not offended to think I'd believe you have a soul) is yours to do with as you wish. You're a free moral agent.
By the way, we do hold something in common. I have no fear of eternal damnation, either.
May 18, 2009 at 7:02 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
Here is a verse to illustrate your point oh4.
Romans 7:7
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”
For those that ask why I keep quoting scripture to people who don't believe it. I believe that through the word people believe.
1 Corinthians 1:21
For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.
As far as bringing up the law like Leviticus.
Matthew 5:17
“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
Romans 8
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
May 18, 2009 at 7:55 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
oh4theluvof......"I can only imagine what the world would be like without people of faith. There would be no knotty problems like values to bother with."........"Everything..... would be permissable." This followed by the list
I quoted in my preceeding post.
Pardon me if I "imposed" an uncivil tone on that statement but it cetrtainly. sounded to me (and still does) as if it was implying that values were the exclusive property of people of faith.
Christianity teaches that humans are inherently evil....and are incapeable of living good lifes without God's guidance and fear of his punishment. I believe that humans are very capeable of living value filled lifes without the help of a god....and I was offering my life as an example of that.
Does this mean that religion...and in this country especially Christianity.....have not had a hand in defineing those values, of course not. But they do not own those values nor do they hold a copyright on them. They can exist outside of their purview.
But as is usually the case.....once I identify myself as a non-believer.....I then forfiet the right to, or the ability, to have a viable thought or express an opinion on any subject with out attack and ridicule.
May 19, 2009 at 6:35 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
netloafer.....Apology denied because it was never offered.....but once again you have made a quntum leap from what I said to what you wanted to believe I said.
I never said, or even implied, that all christians were like Fred Phelps any more than I believe you mean't to imply that all non-believers were like Joseph Stalin et al. My departed Mother certainly wasn't, the believing members of my family certainly are not, nor or the many good christians that I have knwon personally in my life.
I do however believe your own bible teaches that not all men who call Lord Lord shall enter the Kingdom of Heaven....(please pardon the rough paraphrase). So to the list of mass murderers and despots you named earlier we might add the crusaders who slaughtered the residents of the city of Jeruselum until the stench could be smelled from miles away,the holy men who brought us the Spanish Inquisition, and don't forget the millions who died in various and sundry witchhunts over the centuries....all done in the name of God.
Religion in general.....and Christians in paticular...do not have a lock on values.
May 19, 2009 at 7 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
Isaiah 53
4 Surely He has borne our griefs
And carried our sorrows;
Yet we esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten by God, and afflicted.
5 But He was wounded for our transgressions,
He was bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
Proverbs 14:12
There is a way that seems right to a man,
But its end is the way of death.
Romans 3:10
As it is written:
“ There is none righteous, no, not one;
Romans 3
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
May 19, 2009 at 8:48 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
oh4theluvof (anonymous) says...
crack:
Yes, I enjoyed that movie for the most part--thought it was pretty funny. That one quote bothered me, though in the false statement about God refuses to prove that He exists. He did and does prove that he exists, but there are many who refuse to accept those events as proof. They prefer to attribute the recounting of the proofs from long ago to being fables concocted by "unevolved" and ignorant minds and give credit for the present proofs to things like evolution and science.
biscuit:
I feel compelled to point out that you are the one who expressed a desire for Christians to stay out of your path in life (impacting it) and two of us simply tried to point out the impossibility of that. When we did, you accused us of telling you to not impact our lives. You have a very large chip on your shoulder about matters of faith. I will continue to pray that the Spirit of God will visit your heart and free you from the lies and deceits about God that Satan has lodged there.
Peace and Grace (to borrow the phrase that seriously borrowed)
May 19, 2009 at 9:22 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
Romans 1
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are WITHOUT EXUSE, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
May 19, 2009 at 9:31 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
oh4theluvof......Once again I believe you have misconstrued my words.....
Christians impact my life everyday...many of them favorably....I even sometimes seek their advice and impact upon my life. You see.....I am not bothered by some dictate to convert anybody to my way of thinking. Think as you will and enjoy whatever life that brings you.
When christians however feel compelled to bring their beliefs into the public realm by passing laws directing me to live my life according to some christian dictate or another......or refuse to address problems that are bringing great harm unto the world I live in too, because they believe addressing those problems is interfering with "God's will", or try to engineer the start of armageddon to hasten the second coming, they cross a line from religion to secular I believe they have no right to cross.
I have never once in these post tried to tell you what to believe.....nor have I attempted to limit your beliefs.....just keep your beliefs for yourself and don't try to force them on me. That is all I am asking.
May 19, 2009 at 12:19 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
Matthew 5
15 Nor do they light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. 16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.
May 19, 2009 at 12:26 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
YY4U
I have no idea what if any organized religion you might practice....I do however know that some of the things you have written are Buddhist teachings. Buddhism is a beautiful inward looking religion with it's primary emphasis on self-improvement.
If I were going to chose any of the worlds major religions for myself....It would be Buddhism.
May 19, 2009 at 12:34 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
Philippians 1
6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ
Self improvement is self worship.
"The Christian does not think God will love us because we are good, but that God will make us good because He loves us."
C.S. Lewis
May 19, 2009 at 1:06 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
netloafer (anonymous) says...
biscuitboy
I'm not sure what Christian dictates you're thinking of. If it's legislation compelling Christian belief, I'm against that. It didn't work well in the Roman Empire under Constantine, nor did it work well in Renaissance and post-Renaissance Europe.
But if you're saying that Christian, or Judeo-Christian thought, should be exluded in the public sphere, particularly if you don't like it, I am diametrically opposed to that notion. Almost all western law, English common law, and American law, spring from religious thought. I say that I have every right under our law and constitution and the dictates of my conscience to have my views heard at the table of public policy and I fully intend to make those views known, advance legislation consistent with those religious and secular views. I have absolutely no intention of being silent because others in the public square don't like the idea of religious folk getting uppity.
Not so many generations ago, slave trade was legal in the British Empire. William Wilberforce and a small platoon of Christian dissenters pleaded the case against the slave trade for close to forty years until the practice was legislated out of existence. They were called religious fanatics, pushing against the public grain. But they persisted. Martin Luther King had a dream about equality and draped that dream in religious language. He and others who believed the time had come for change endured Bull Conner's dogs and fire hoses, the church burnings. They too were castigated as religious fanatics.
I realize that bashing religion may be one of the most popular public prejudices these days. It's the one area where many folks can put their brilliance on display against the unenlightened brutes who are foolish enough to believe in nonsense things like faith. Well, that's alright. There may come a time, as it has before, when the brilliant folks wish they hadn't closed the public square to the village idiots.
May 19, 2009 at 1:23 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
glarson (anonymous) says...
Moved to a forum:
http://www.emporiagazette.com/forums/...
May 19, 2009 at 2:54 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )