Hot times
Don Coldsmith, Syndicated Columnist
Monday, June 22, 2009
WE HAD a hot time at our church once. We had just had a church business meeting to discuss some proposed improvements and deferred maintenance problems that were in need of attention. A major concern was the failing heating and air-conditioning system.
The following Sunday, with late summer heat near three digits, it was found that the air conditioning had given up the ghost. (No disrespect to the Trinity intended). There was some discussion as to whether the preacher had shut it down to prove a point, or maybe he’d just asked God to do so. Or possibly, just divine intervention without request.
In any case, it was hot in the sanctuary. It was recalled that a generation ago, nobody had air conditioning anyway. Cooling, in churches, was accomplished with cardboard fans on a stick. These were supplied by the local funeral homes and carried pictures of Jesus, Noah, Moses or the Virgin Mary; the latter especially in Catholic or Episcopal settings. This helped to stir the air and nobody knew any better anyway. (Much like the Depression. Everybody was poor, but nobody knew it because they were all in the same situation).
All the talk of cardboard fans and hot church services caused me to recall a situation which involved one of my brothers. This was my preaching brother, not the one who was a writer and journalist. (You may insert at this point any appropriate comment about siblings who took separate paths to the extremes, about evil twins, or whatever. They weren’t twins and I take no responsibility for the actions of either one.)
This event took place in a church in a small town in north central Kansas, which shall remain unnamed. It was just after the end of World War II, before air conditioning became common place. This particular church had more of a problem than average, because of an odd architectural design. The platform and the pulpit, at the front of the sanctuary, are directly in front of the choir loft. The choir, the minister and anybody else on the platform are tucked away, mostly in a sort of alcove, with poor circulation of air. No windows there, so no way at all to circulate air on a hot Sunday morning. Even the congregation in the pews had a better shot at it than the preacher and the choir.
My brother was resourceful. He acquired an electric fan, the oscillating kind that would swing back and forth, and placed it on the edge of the platform, facing the congregation. They still used the fans from the funeral home, but it was a great step in modernization to have the big electric fan sweeping across the sanctuary.
Now, I have to pause to reveal a couple of things about my preaching brother. He had a lot of other interests. He would probably have made a good engineer or scientist. He was skilled as a machinist, auto mechanic, gunsmith, on and on —
What the congregation did not know was that he had reversed the polarity on the oscillating fan. The air from the whirling blades was blowing, not across the congregation, but backward, to benefit the preacher and the long-suffering choir in the stuffy alcove.
A few years ago, I was asked to speak at that same church, at a centennial celebration or something. The architecture hadn’t changed, though they did have air conditioning now. I recalled the story of the fan and shared it with the congregation. Many of them remembered my brother and recalled that he had a fan on the platform. One man came up afterward, who had been in that choir. The choir, he assured me, knew about the fan’s improved design and the mild deception of the congregation. “But we weren’t talkin’ about it.”
See you down the road.
Author and columnist Don Coldsmith lives in Emporia.
God (anonymous) says...
“He acquired an electric fan…and placed it on the edge of the platform, facing the congregation…
The air from the whirling blades was blowing, not across the congregation, but backward, to benefit the preacher and the long-suffering choir in the stuffy alcove…
The choir, he assured me, knew about the fan’s improved design and the mild deception of the congregation.”
Ah yes, what a fun tale of selfishness and deceit in the house of God. I guess the message is: pretending to help others while actually helping yourself is acceptable in the eyes of God. Good to know.
June 22, 2009 at 2:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
equalrights (anonymous) says...
Oh geez. Christians are humans too. Are they expected to be perfect?
June 22, 2009 at 3:11 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
God (anonymous) says...
equalrights, I don't know. They tell me what I should and shouldn't do, so they must be perfect, right?
June 22, 2009 at 3:19 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
And our elected officials make laws and tell us what to do. (And they are supposed to be very careful to separate church and state). With atheists among them, as well as Christians. All trying to push laws and agendas on the population.
So since all the above are telling me what I should and shouldn't do, they must be perfect, right?
What's your point?
June 22, 2009 at 4:15 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
justthefacts (anonymous) says...
God, I'm going to pray for your salvation.
June 22, 2009 at 4:21 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
Actually, we'd save the most money by giving them all to Gore so he could run 3 or 4 at a time in each room in his mansion. That way he could be saving all of US from contributing to global warming (he, of course, is exempt).
June 22, 2009 at 5:24 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
create (anonymous) says...
I'm cool.
June 22, 2009 at 5:45 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
pizza (anonymous) says...
I thought it was a funny story. The fan cooled the choir loft and gave the congregation the perception of being cooler as well so everybody felt better. It was a great story about how a man made all the people feel more comfortable. Thanks for sharing, Don.
June 22, 2009 at 7:50 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
Obama's super cool breath is going to cool us all. He must smoke menthols.
June 22, 2009 at 8:40 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
oh4theluvof (anonymous) says...
seriously, if you're still around these forums, I have something I want to discuss with you.
June 22, 2009 at 8:48 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_3kEZ...
June 22, 2009 at 11:46 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
pizza.....I agree,,,,,It was a funny story and to attempt to use it as some sort of condemnation of an entire religion to me smacks of someone with too much time on their hands.
Coming from me that may surprise some of you but all I could think of was.....LIGHTEN UP!!!!!!
June 23, 2009 at 3:54 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
I would like to clarify something here.....
As most people on these boards already know.....I don't believe in any religion.....a personal decision made by me after years of thought......but I don't hate religion...I just don't believe in it.
And that's apparently the difference between myself and our poster "God". We are not all alike!
June 23, 2009 at 5:51 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Joe_Strummer (anonymous) says...
Believe what you want to believe as long as you don't get in my face about it.
I think organized religion is a joke. That said..... It was a story, and a pretty good one.....nothing more. Take it for what it is and lighten up a bit.
June 23, 2009 at 6:38 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
under_score (anonymous) says...
biscuitboy,
One way that you and "God" are similar is that you both feel the need to take every opportunity to announce to everyone how you don't believe in a higher power.
I hear a lot more atheists on these forums pushing their beliefs on Christians than vice versa.
I think when Christians speak their beliefs to others it's because they are generally caring people who want to help others as much as they can. And I rarely hear them talking down to people or anything like that. Their worst offense that I can think of, and it is minor and not all inclusive, is sometimes speaking in a manner that assumes their entire audience is Christian and holds the same beliefs as they do. I can live with that.
When atheists speak their beliefs, I believe they feel that they are more enlightened than others and want the world to know how much smarter they are than everyone else. What other motive could they have?
June 23, 2009 at 7:17 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
under-score
I have announced my belief in lack of a higher power on no more than three threads since I joined our merry little band.....and each of those times it was only after the topic of believe, or lack of believe, had been raised by others The only other times I have discussed religion was either to defend peoples right to believe, or not to believe, without ridicule.....as I was doing this morning, or to protest attempts by religious people to force their beliefs on me.
So it appears you once again are reading a great deal more into what you think I say than you have a right to. You have a right to your beliefs, right down to and including your belief that atheist "feel they are more enlightened than others and want the world to know how much smarter they are than everyone else" But your believeing that does not make it true.
Your real problem is you don't like me.....which is fine..... because I don't like you either. That I believe is well proven by the simple fact that three people on this thread alone expressed a lack of belief......and my expression was the most tolerent one of the three.....but I am the one you called out.
But as you should know by now...I am up for the fight and will continue it as long as you like.
Incidentally.....the motive they could have is that "they are generally caring people who are just trying to help others." Carry on.
June 23, 2009 at 7:50 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
under_score (anonymous) says...
I called you out because we've had this argument before and I feel like I'm getting under your skin. But the same holds true for them.
I don't think "Hey everybody, I don't believe in god!" serves any purpose.
June 23, 2009 at 8:14 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
under-score
At least I understand now why you don't like me. It's because I don't believe in your God......and you call me intolerent.
I like a lot of christians that post on these boards. seriouslyfolks, open-eyes, oh4theluvof, and others whose handles don't come to mind right now. I dislike you, not because of your religious beliefs, but because of your rotten attitude. If that makes me intolerent then I guess that's what I will have to be.
If us "atheist" are so cocky and proud of ourselves...why do I have to look up how to spell that word everytime I use it? lol
June 23, 2009 at 8:22 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
My "friend"......."I feel like I'm getting under your skin"......another one of your delusions. I love this. You just keep feeding me reason's to ridicule you and I'll keep using them.
June 23, 2009 at 8:28 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
"I don't believe, Hey everybody, I don't believe in God, serves any purpose"........maybe not except when it is preceeded by some body telling me why they do. But under-score, that might be a little to abstract for you to comprehend
June 23, 2009 at 8:35 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
under_score (anonymous) says...
last word
June 23, 2009 at 10:14 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
typical!
June 23, 2009 at 12:05 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
Logjam!!
June 23, 2009 at 12:17 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
under_score (anonymous) says...
asssphinctersayswhat?
June 23, 2009 at 1:42 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Steve_Corbin (anonymous) says...
under_score;
Whoa, turn on a fan and cool down. A person could get heat stroke just reading your posts with buiscuitboys. I doubt that the Doc. reads these posts, if he did he could come up with a few more articles.
June 23, 2009 at 3:12 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
Steve......thanks for the eye-opener....this is getting out of hand and I am done with it.
I apologize to all who have been exposed to this for my part in it......Sorry!
June 24, 2009 at 6:05 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
God (anonymous) says...
under_score, The difference between Christians and "atheists" pushing their beliefs on others is that Christians claim their beliefs are factual. They know, without a doubt, that they are correct. They are basing their beliefs on unsubstantiated "faith". Christians also use their faith as an excuse for their actions and/or support for their arguments. Christians will say, “You need to do this because the Bible says so.” OR “We’re bound to win because God is on our side.” You don’t see atheists saying such things.
Most of the "atheists" on these boards aren't true atheists. To be an atheist, you have to believe there is no God. I think most "non-believers" on here don't go as far as to say God doesn't exist, but they are suggesting you shouldn't put so much "faith" in something that is unverified. Anytime you quote the Bible in your responses, it’s like one of us quoting a science fiction novel. You can’t prove something is true by quoting the very thing you’re trying to prove true. Does that mean super-heroes are real because a comic book says so? You need to prove the source is true before you go quoting it as fact.
June 24, 2009 at 9:14 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
"but they are suggesting you shouldn't put so much "faith" in something that is unverified"
What's the difference between "suggesting" and "pushing beliefs"?
You suggest "don't believe" we suggest "believe". In my 35 years I have never heard anyone say "we should get rid of atheism" I have heard you say "When I suggest we do away with "religion", I'm referring to the common practices and teachings of the modern Church."(you probably mean Christianity)
You want to "suggest" your beliefs but I can't have mine. Very convenient for you.
June 24, 2009 at 9:40 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
God (anonymous) says...
seriouslyfolks, My beliefs are based on what I actually know to be fact and what has yet to be determined. Your beliefs are based on a folklore and wives-tales. I’m not suggesting you share my beliefs, but perhaps you should question your own. The difference is I’m not claiming to know all the answers. Christians claim to have it all figured out even though they have nothing to prove it. Is it really “pushing my beliefs” on you to say, “I don’t know the answers and I don’t think you really do either”?
June 24, 2009 at 9:50 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
"but perhaps you should question your own"
Who says I haven't?
"Christians claim to have it all"
False
"Is it really “pushing my beliefs” on you to say, “I don’t know the answers and I don’t think you really do either”?"
No, but to say "we" need to get rid of "common practices and teachings of the modern Church" it implies that you don't believe in that so "we" should all just get rid of it. It might be a little different but .................... no, no it's you pushing your beliefs on others. Twist it all you want but you are more like me and all the other people you despise than you care to believe.
June 24, 2009 at 10:10 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
under_score (anonymous) says...
godnonymous,
Prove that God is not real. Prove that God is real. Prove that man evolved from apes. Prove that man did not evolve from apes. I'll bet you can do none of the above because in fact there is no way possible to do so.
Perhaps you should do a little more questioning of your own beliefs? No, that would explore the possibility that you could be wrong which would imply that you don't already have it all figured out.
In the past, given enough time to disprove, "Science" has been wrong about almost everything. But I suppose they got it right this time. Of course, I admit, I don't know.
Out of curiousity, which of the principles that Christians try to live their lives by is offensive to you?
I question your motives as a reformed atheist. Back in my college days I even wrote a paper arguing that religion was the cause of most of the world's problems past and present.
As I've grown older and wiser, I now know that ignorance is more likely the cause. I am also smart enough to admit that a god just as likely created the universe as it suddenly appearing from nothing. Then again, even the most intelligent humans are not anywhere close to being able to comprehend the creation of something from nothing.
Tolerance is the key. Except when it comes to the Democrats that are running this country into the ground. They should all be rounded up along with their Supreme leader, BO, and sent to Canada.
June 24, 2009 at 10:27 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
God (anonymous) says...
under_score, You're right, I'm not smart enough to prove either theory, but I do know science at least uses observation, logic, and reason to develop the theory of evolution. Religion isn't based on anything but stories and the fear of the unknown.
What came before the big-bang?
Where did God come from?
I don't know the answers, but I do know that current organized religions aren't the key to finding the answers.
Yes, given time, scientific theories have been and will be disproven. With science, people are willing to change their beliefs given new evidence. With religion, people tend not to budge on their unfounded beliefs and this causes problems. I'm offended by Christians claiming to know what they don't. Christian values, on the other hand, are mostly beneficial to society.
June 24, 2009 at 10:45 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
Dog-spelled-Backwards, do not the true atheists "know", without a doubt, that they are correct? You say you don't see atheists saying such things but that is exactly what I see and hear them say. Telling a Christian their faith is based on myths and lies seems pretty clear-cut that they believe strongly in their own correctness to me. And they have science on their side (even thought science can't explain much of it).
An atheist also cannot prove something is false when they fail to have an answer to St. Thomas Aquinas's 5 postulates for the existence of God.
Seems to me nobody can prove anything one way or the other. Christians go on faith that a greater power exists, atheists go on..........faith....... that it doesn't....
June 24, 2009 at 10:46 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
I can also think of quite a few "unfounded beliefs" that atheists throughout history have "tended not to budge on" that have "caused problems"......... read any history book. It's just as full of them as the religious side of it.
June 24, 2009 at 10:53 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
God (anonymous) says...
open_eyes,
Maybe true atheists, but I don’t consider myself an atheist. It's not faith that drives my beliefs. Suppose your friend Bob went missing and you and I went looking for him.
You, as a Christian, would walk in an empty room and say. "Bob must be here. I have nothing to prove it, but nothing to disprove it either. I have faith he's in here because that's what I want to believe. I’d rather not entertain the possibility he’s not here even though the evidence doesn’t support my beliefs."
I, as an "atheist", would walk into the same empty room and say, "Logically, Bob isn't in here because I cannot see him, smell him, hear him, etc... There is no reason for me to believe he is here. Unless I discover evidence otherwise, he is most likely not here."
I don’t believe in organized religions, because there is nothing to support it. Going off of the lack of evidence to base an opinion is not faith; it’s logic.
June 24, 2009 at 11:06 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
"I don’t believe in organized religions" You forgot to add that you want to get rid of them since you don't believe in them.
June 24, 2009 at 11:17 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
I think that's the crux of the matter. You assume and attribute things to Christians which most Christians are not. I don't walk into an empty room and say that. Yes, I was brought up in a church, when I was young I believed in the Easter Bunny, etc.... but as I got older and matured I began to ask my own questions, and search out my own understanding. My asking quesions and searching for answers have brought me somewhat "full circle" back to the belief that this is not all a big cosmic "accident". I've stated in other threads that my belief is not based on whether the universe is 6,000 years old or 14 billion. Many of the stories of Genesis are based on earlier legends and accounts, but much of the Bible has also proven to be a factually correct account of history. And you know what they say..... behind every legend.... lies a germ of truth.
I don't believe Bob is in the room, either. However, since I have no proof of where he is, or where he isn't, I refrain from saying since he's not in this room where I can see and touch him he doesn't exist.
You see, I have yet another reason for my "disbelief" that only what science can prove at this time is all that is real or exists. Someone I know very well nearly died once and had an out of body experience. They were able to see the room, describe what was happening, what was going on. There is no way they could have described it otherwise - they had never been in that room while conscious. Or with their eyes open. Nor were the medical personnel in the room describing things in a way that this person could have overheard and related. I simply have no other explanation for it other than there is something, call it another dimension if you will, beyond the 3 we can sense.
Scientific theory itself tells us that there may be many "dimensions" to reality - can an atheist tell me what is going on in other dimensions that might live side-by-side with us but we are totally unable to perceive? If you believe in science, then it seems to me......you have to acknowledge that there may possibly be extra (higher) dimensions to reality that we cannot percieve, but can perceive us - or else you have to contradict yourself.
I'm not necessarily talking about you, as you don't consider yourself a true atheist - this is directed at the "true believers" in non-belief. Who can't prove their stance either. True, I can't prove and ascribe anything of my belief to theories of higher dimensions - but I can't disprove it either. We all have a choice as to what our own search for knowledge and understanding lead us to. My life, my experiences, my understanding, have led me to mine. I think, hope, (and pray) that each person will also in their lifetime find their own answers as well.
June 24, 2009 at 11:44 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
I told rbow this morning that I was out of this and I mean it.....but I must clarify two points.
I, as a non-believing individual, have never once called for the elimination of religion and I highly resent any one that claims that i have.
I, as a non-believing individual, have never once claimed that any thought I had on this subject was infallible, nor that my reasons for not believeing were necessarily accurate and I challange anyone to find any statement I have made to the contrary.
All I have ever said was that I personally was unable to believe.....and all I ever asked was to be allowed to believe that without attack and ridicule. Is that too much to ask?
June 24, 2009 at 12:15 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
.....I should have written......all I have ever asked is to be allowed to say that without attack and ridicule.
June 24, 2009 at 12:18 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
God (anonymous) says...
open_eyes, I certainly believe there are things beyond our comprehension and I believe that when I die, my questions will be answered. I also think it's interesting that we are trying to prove out-of-body experiences. (via scientific method) One simple study is using postcards placed on high shelves in emergency rooms where patients wouldn't be able to see them unless they were floating above as often described. If the patient wakes up and can correctly describe what was on the postcards then we have some actual evidence for out-of-body experiences and what that might implicate as to if we have “souls”. I’m fine with taking the scientific approach to exploring these things. It’s difficult for me to believe, however, that Christianity (or any other organized religion) has it right since they are not based on logic or reason. I believe we are slowing the expansion of our knowledge of this subject by clinging to the unproven traditions of religion.
It’s not so much that Christianity is “forced on me”, but I constantly hear people saying we should or shouldn’t do something because it does or doesn’t agree with their religion. Since religion can’t be proven, I don’t think it should be at the core of your decision making process…especially when it impacts my life.
June 24, 2009 at 12:24 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
biscuitboy
Who has ridiculed you for not believing? I hope you don't feel that I have. That wasn't my intention.
June 24, 2009 at 12:24 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
"I believe we are slowing the expansion of our knowledge of this subject by clinging to the unproven traditions of religion."
How?
June 24, 2009 at 12:26 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
seriouslyfolks......of course not my friend (and nephew of auntie folks)....of course not.
June 24, 2009 at 12:30 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
OK good.
June 24, 2009 at 12:39 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
And I have no problem with science trying to prove or disprove anything. Only when they claim as "fact" things they cannot prove or disprove.
I don't believe in ridiculing anyone for their beliefs. Anyone who does is not being true to THIER beliefs, in my opinion.
Interesting take on "forcing on me", however. When people tell us we should or shouldn't do this or that, what is it based on? Their belief? Where did that come from? Does it matter where it came from? I would understand your point if, for instance, people truly felt one way, but their "belief" told them they should feel another, and hence they went with that. But what if their "belief" has led them to religion? Is that any different from someones "belief" leading them to atheism? If I feel compassion for fellow human beings, and, for instance, believe a late-term baby who can at any moment be delivered alive and healthy has rights, am I wrong because a "book of myths" also told me so? Besides, where in the Bible does it specifically talk about late-term abortions anyway?
I too, feel that we have in some ways throughout history slowed our social growth as a species by turning away from some traditions of religion. Just imagine where we'd be if Hitler, Saddam, Kim Jong, Iran, etc..... were devout Christians who actually ADHERED faithfully to Christian doctrines of love, compassion, and forgiveness for all (unlike many people of all religions, not just Christians, who are poor representatives of what they should stand for - me included, at times)...... wow.....
June 24, 2009 at 12:43 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
That's interesting about the postcards. Obviously it would give some credence to out-of-body experiences, but it wouldn't be able to disprove anything if they don't see the postcards. I'm sure if I'm in that situation and find myself floating above my body I doubt my first step would be to search around for hidden postcards to memorize - LOL :)
Tough questions with no good answers at times. Why does God allow suffering? (Not talking about the poster here :). I've seen the studies where children who grow up in pristine clean environments are much more likely to develop allergies. Maybe we are like that. We can't learn or even comprehend true compassion unless we've seen and experienced the absence of it. And God's plan is for us to grow and to mature in that way. I guess compared to eternity (if you believe in something that survives beyond our physical body) our short time here on earth won't seem like all that much in the bigger picture.
Just idle thoughts one day going back and forth thru the field on the John Deere :)
June 24, 2009 at 1:05 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
With the way we act why does God bless us with anything but suffering?
http://www.emporiagazette.com/news/20...
http://www.emporiagazette.com/news/20...
http://www.emporiagazette.com/news/20...
http://www.emporiagazette.com/news/20...
http://www.emporiagazette.com/news/20...
http://www.emporiagazette.com/news/20...
http://www.emporiagazette.com/news/20...
June 24, 2009 at 1:44 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
The people mentioned in your articles were all Christians, right? Well, they HAD to be! After all, they were trying to enforce their views & will on others!
Just don't get in front of my John Deere and you'll be fine. Not because I'm willing to live and let live, but more because the brakes aren't worth a crap. :)
June 24, 2009 at 2:40 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
glarson (anonymous) says...
Headed to a forum:
http://www.emporiagazette.com/forums/...
June 24, 2009 at 3:51 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )