In their first set of meetings of 2009, Lyon County commissioners voted 2-1 today to raise their salaries.
At the end of Wednesday’s meeting, outgoing Lyon County Commissioner Bob Davis suggested giving commissioners a $2,500 raise across the board, which would put them at $18,495 and the chairman at $19,493.60.
Two members of the three-person commission — Davis and Commissioner Marshall Miller — are stepping down this year, and so will not benefit from a raise.
“I don’t think it’s something that should be left to the new commission,” Davis said. “I don’t think it’s their job. I think it’s our job.”
Davis said this morning that the salary doesn’t cover what is required of commissioners.
“It just don’t quite cover the demands that is put on commissioners today,” he said. “In these coming four years, these commissioners are going to have a work load that we never thought of having.”
Lyon County Attorney/County Counselor Marc Goodman on Wednesday said there’s a lot of work involved in being a county commissioner.
“I don’t think I understood even split off among the three of you the number of meetings,” Goodman said. “The people expect you to be at meetings. You can’t ignore the meetings. I can feel that way just as a county attorney. That’s all I do and I don’t have to have a separate job for my income to provide for my family.”
Goodman also quoted a Kansas Attorney General’s opinion from 1983 that states “the establishment and moneys for salaries of county commissioners are within the exclusive province of a board of county commissioners and there is no expressed or implied statutory authority permitting such salaries to be fixed pursuant to an initiative or referendum process.”
“The county expenditures is in exclusive control of commissioners, which would include their own salaries,” Goodman said.
Lyon County Commission Chairman Scott Briggs, who will remain on the commission, said the issue puts the commission in an awkward position.
“It’s an awkward position to be talking about your own pay raise using the county taxpayer dollars to give your own raise,” he said. “There will be some recoil, but I don’t think people actually understand the requirements of a county commissioner. I don’t think I did. You’re on all types of boards and they expect you to be at those. As you should be.”
Briggs said he has put 35,000 miles on his personal vehicle running back and forth since he took office and many times he is driving down the road on personal business taking care of county business on his personal cell phone.
“I’m not sure the economics are good with this type of move, but I’m not sure when the time is going to be right,” he said.
Miller voted against the increase in pay.
“We are low but I think we’re in very difficult economic times,” Miller said. “It’s unknown going into next year. ... I don’t think the timing is good and I don’t want to bring a lot of bad vibes to the new commission.”
Miller suggested raising the salaries by a smaller amount. No move was made on that suggestion. Commissioners also talked about the idea of splitting the raise over two years. No move was made on that idea either.
Briggs called for the motion following discussion. Davis made the motion. Briggs seconded the motion. Both voted for it with Miller voting against.
“I think for the future of the board this is something that needs to be done,” Briggs said. “It’s not going to be popular. I don’t expect it to be.”
The question now lies in how the raise will be funded. The raises aren’t in 2009’s budget and the county is facing a $1.5 million shortfall as a result of the delay in the sales tax collection. Lyon County Controller Dan Slater said every budget in the county was cut closer to what would be needed to run that department rather than each department have 30 percent extra built into their budget. An area has been set up, which the commissioners have control over, that can be tapped into if there are shortfalls.
However, there’s still the issue of how to pay for county commissioner raises. The $7,500 would be an unbudgeted expense.
“It’s going to be a problem (in) a year on paper where I’m a million and a half dollars light on revenue,” Slater said. “(But) we’re not talking huge dollars. They are probably underpaid compared to what we expect out of them. ...”
Slater said the county commission looks like a 2 1/2-day-a-week job, however, some commissioners end up spending 40 hours a week at the office in addition to night meetings.
Commissioner salaries through the years:
F Jan. 1989: $8,305.18
F Jan. 1999: $9,796.80
F March 1999: $10,090.60
F Dec. 2001: $10,756.98
F Dec. 2002: $12,918.10
F Jan. 2004: $15,080
F Jan. 2006: $15,995.20, the board also approved an additional $1,000 per year for the chairman of the board
Comments
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Posted by Free4all (anonymous) on January 8, 2009 at 4:33 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I thought these were hard times with cut backs.
Posted by admireed (anonymous) on January 8, 2009 at 4:36 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Not if you are in public jobs
Posted by methusla (anonymous) on January 8, 2009 at 4:57 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Lets disect these two statements by Commissioner Davis,
Davis said this morning that the salary doesn’t cover what is required of commissioners.
“It just don’t quite cover the demands that is put on commissioners today,” he said. “In these coming four years, these commissioners are going to have a work load that we never thought of having."
To me Commissioner Davis is the same as admitting that he and his fellow commissioners have actually been over paid for their work load and that the new Commissioners are going to be handed a lot of unfinished work! However thats just how I am understanding his statement.
First of all I don't think that any of the Commissioners, either County or City work any harder than anyone out in the real world who is working 40 to 60 hours per week at a physically demanding job to earn a living. I would like to see any of the Commissioners try and convince my son that they work harder at being a City or County Commissioner than he does at his job.
Posted by methusla (anonymous) on January 8, 2009 at 5:10 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I have a question for Dan Slater, Just how many 40 hour weeks and nights out of the year do some of the County Commissioners have to work besides the 2 to 21/2 days a week that is required ?
Why don't you make the hours worked by the Commissioners publicly known and decide whether they are getting their moneys worth from their County Commissioners.
Still sounds like a well paying part time job to me!
Posted by truelovecharlie (anonymous) on January 8, 2009 at 5:55 p.m. (Suggest removal)
UNBELIEVABLE!!!! These commisioners are making way more than most people working a full-time job and they get other benefits and perks to boot. How many part-time jobs offer benefits, in the real world? My wife just got a job working with severely psychologically damaged children and only makes $9 and hour and an additional $1 an hour for shift differential. She will make just over $18,000 working 2080 hours (the number of hours working full-time 52 weeks a year). These kids are very physically and verbally abusive and it is a dangerous job. These people get to sit in over-priced chairs in an over-priced building, spending the tax-payers money. Congrats to Mr. Marshall for voting against it. Too bad it only took 2 votes to pass it. I think I'm gonna go find me one of them $18,000 plus benefits part-time jobs. I'll be fishin the rest of my time.
Posted by Free4all (anonymous) on January 8, 2009 at 6:56 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Exactly my thought, I know several families who have to struggle to make it on LESS than what these guys make.
Posted by create (anonymous) on January 8, 2009 at 7:22 p.m. (Suggest removal)
You know why they did this? Because they can. So much for the rest of us.
Posted by Tell (anonymous) on January 8, 2009 at 7:41 p.m. (Suggest removal)
For someone that is managing a 26 million dollar business I would say they are extremely under paid. Thanks for the people who have the guts to do this type of job, I assure you they do more than just a few hours a week. Instead of writing to complain maybe some of you should write your campaign speech.
Posted by sunshine (anonymous) on January 8, 2009 at 8:19 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Tell..
I don't care what the commissioners make, and I'm sure they do work hard. Most of us do. I think it is disgusting that the commissioners are getting a raise when everyone else is struggling to make ends meet...many of us on $9.00 an hour or less since there are not alot of really high paying jobs in this town or anywhere else right now. And so in a time when there is such financial distress, instead of putting our tax dollars to something like emergency food and shelter programs, we will work our tails off so that our tax dollars can serve to give raises to commissioners. Kudos to Marshall Miller for recognizing that it is not an appropriate time to be giving commissioners raises.
Posted by MrCmonkeeDo (anonymous) on January 8, 2009 at 8:23 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Times are hard for everybody methusla. MrC doesn't begrudge the commissioners. Heck fire, WE ALL need pay raises (MrC saw a $50 roast the other day!)
Assuming Slater meant 20 hrs. a week by his "2 1/2-day-a-week job" remark, any commissioner lucky enough to have a 40 hr. a wk job would be putting in 60 hrs. a wk. Lot's of folks work 60+ hrs. a week, but they get old quick and miss out on a whole lot of the family stuff that makes life a little sweeter for those that are lucky enough to keep their work hrs. closer to 40. You can ask anybody who's done it for any length of time if MrCmonkeeDo is wrong.
But you probably don't need to ask, you've probably done it yourself. Workin' 60+ hrs. a wk. is kinda like Warhol's 15 famous minutes. Sooner or later everybody get's a taste--and they deserve compensation.
That being said, MrC cannot imagine a more ill timed scenario to vote one's self a pay raise at public expense.
Our very own elected public servants seem unaware that WE already have our brows raised over their support of those who would wage a war of rights on local businesses. It jist don' sit right, somehow. Maybe now that it's safe to go into our Taverns an' Laundromats they're figurein' some extra quarters might come in handy. Who knows? But, that's "The Man" for ya; predictable as a drunken idiot.
To cut short what has already taken too many words; MrCmonkeeDo supports a pay raise for pertinear anybody, but the timing of this particular pay raise stinks particularly.
Remember these words my peeps:
When the teat's production slows down it is innate that we milk it dry.
Posted by jackslap (anonymous) on January 8, 2009 at 8:42 p.m. (Suggest removal)
The voters put them in office...... The voters should get to vote!
Posted by admireed (anonymous) on January 8, 2009 at 9:06 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Sunshine, you have it right. Bad Bad example for Cty Comm. What kind of leadership is that!!!
Posted by Tell (anonymous) on January 8, 2009 at 9:11 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Hey Sunshine
Why don't you keep your 9 dollar an hour job and run for commissioner you might have a chance to double your salary. Good Luck
Posted by booker5m (anonymous) on January 8, 2009 at 10:22 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Pretty low life to vote yourself a raise. Let the people vote. Bet you dont have the guts for that do you! Everytime they vote themselves a raise we hear " I didnt relize how much work was invoved BS. Is someone holding a gun to your head forcing you to run? We need to have a vote in the next election that they can no longer vote themselves a raise. If you dont think you are paid enough get OUT!
Posted by alfalfa (anonymous) on January 8, 2009 at 10:24 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I will agree this is poor timing, but having served on some boards myself I can tell you that it is getting harder and harder to attract good people to run for office. The general public, as evidenced by this forum, are quite demanding and at the same time think your time is worthless. In reality, county commissions, city commissions, and school boards probably have more effect on everyday life than either state or national offices, yet for some reason everyone considers local offices to be not worthy of much pay. Given the size of the Lyon county budget, $25000 wouldn't be too much. I realize my comments won't be popular, but it is the truth. If you want good people governing, who are responsible and take their job seriously, you have to reward them for it. Otherwise, alot of the people you get in government at all levels will just be there to feather their own nests in other ways.
The coming 4 years are going to be very trying times at every level of government. For everyone who won't run for office themselves, you had better hope there is some incentive for good people to keep running...think of it as an investment in YOUR future. I am going to guess that once the new commission is seated, they will probably refuse the raise. That doesn't change the fact that if the public wants good people leading, they need to hold them accountable, but also provide incentive for good people to get into government to begin with. It has never been more important than now to recruit and elect the very best to all levels of government.
Posted by oh4theluvof (anonymous) on January 8, 2009 at 10:43 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Thank you, alfalfa. I don't know how much I agree yet, but you gave me something to calmly think about.
Posted by methusla (anonymous) on January 8, 2009 at 10:53 p.m. (Suggest removal)
How hard a job can taxing and spending be anyway, and it seems that the Commissioners are not managing a multimillion dollar business, they are mismanaging it.
Posted by alfalfa (anonymous) on January 8, 2009 at 11:23 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Trust me methusla, they aren't just taxing and spending. I will be the first to say I disagree with alot of what goes on. What you don't see from the outside looking in is the phone calls, often when you really don't want to talk to anyone, the times you get cornered after church, after a high school ball game, when you are going out to eat. You may not believe it, but I have never served on any board where any member was there just to tax and spend. I really don't want to say what I have served on because I want to remain incognito, but I will say that looking back, I don't believe I was compensated even a 10th enough. Going into it, I was great- guns public- service no- pay guy, after 15 years of serving in two different posts, I think differently. The voters expect everything. They want perfection, and absolutely no taxes. If employees gripe, the taxpayers almost always believe that employees are getting the shaft and need more pay, just don't raise my taxes. This nation is reaping what it has sowed from top to bottom with elected officials. We claim we want public servants who will serve with little pay, then act surprised when they owe big business. If you want good people, you have to make it worth their while to serve, especially at the local level, if the taxpayers won't make it worth their while, someone else will. Most people who have any business skills at all are way too busy to put up with the BS of being on a school board, or county or city commission. I am not saying those who are serving now are not good, I am not commenting one way or the other on current office holders. I am just saying elected officials take alot of abuse, the old line of "no one made them sign up for it" is pretty lame. We need government whether we like it or not, because we want roads, schools, bridges, a military, police, fire, ambulance, etc. You don't go to a doctor because he is cheap, you go to the one you hope is the best. We have to start thinking that way with elected officials...you get what you pay for.
Posted by Free4all (anonymous) on January 9, 2009 at 12:13 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Great articles today pointing out who cares about whom. We have programs to help feed and house the poor allocating money and making cuts along with a article about county tax surplus being used to pay a little extra on the court house instead of sharing the wealth with a community project that is having a hard time. Then the people who are voted in give themselves a raise. What the hell, sure makes a person wonder why even stay in this damn town.
Posted by lyon (anonymous) on January 9, 2009 at 8:12 a.m. (Suggest removal)
How about all the other county employees? We haven't even got a cost of living raise for at least 10 years!! All we get is a lousy 29 cents after every 5 years! What about us?? I was outraged when this was published on the front page!
Posted by TacoBellB (anonymous) on January 9, 2009 at 8:21 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Must be nice to have a government job where you can give yourself a raise and make the taxpayers foot the bill. Wonder how many people in the private sector will see a 13.5% raise this year? Why do we allow these people to continue to do this to us?
Posted by OutsiderJ (anonymous) on January 9, 2009 at 9:09 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I would wager that if you included health benefits, and any other benefits bestowed on these crooks, that their annual salary approaches $25,000 a piece in taxpayer dollars. I figure health insurance costs about what, $500 a month these days through an employer...I would like to find a breakdown of the commissioners total compensation, then I would like to find a rope and tree...
Posted by OutsiderJ (anonymous) on January 9, 2009 at 9:11 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Amen, Free4all. What a shame that things that are worthwhile are tightening their belts, while county government is undoing the top button and waiting on seconds.
Posted by sunshine (anonymous) on January 9, 2009 at 9:13 a.m. (Suggest removal)
MrC, you said it!
"To cut short what has already taken too many words; MrCmonkeeDo supports a pay raise for pertinear anybody, but the timing of this particular pay raise stinks particularly."
I too think that anybody that can should get a pay raise, except that the people that these elected officials are representing most likely won't get a raise, the lower level people working for Lyon County won't get a pay raise (from what I understand there are freezes on the rest of the people working for the county getting raises in 2009 because it isn't budgeted for, not enough money to budget it in), some people that these officials represent won't even be able to find jobs what with half the businesses and factories in Emporia shutting down. I consider myself lucky to have a job. If times were better I wouldn't balk a bit about commissioners getting raises...might inspire them to do more for the people the represent. But I think its despicable for them to get raises when so many are suffering. Sit back and watch folks cause as the money for these raises are budgeted in, budgeting for other things in the county will decrease. Before long we will start hearing about this budget cut and that budget cut and we can all think back to these raises.
Posted by seriouslyfolks (anonymous) on January 9, 2009 at 9:21 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Let's just assume that their job is the hardest job in the world that doesn't make the timing any better. If your going to re-roof your house you don't tear off the old roof if there's a storm coming. Well guess what it's been pouring rain for quite some time.
Posted by sociallyconsious (anonymous) on January 9, 2009 at 9:26 a.m. (Suggest removal)
alfalfa- well said. As someone who also has been on many volunteer boards, I so agree with you.
free4all- you wonder why people stay here. Politics is the same everywhere. You can go to any town and city and the a slightly different scenerio of the same thing will be playing out.
For the rest of you- If you don't like the way things are being done- RUN FOR OFFICE AND CHANGE IT!
Posted by seriouslyfolks (anonymous) on January 9, 2009 at 9:43 a.m. (Suggest removal)
sociallyconsious
Everyone shouldn't have to run for office. The people that do should have enough common sense to not spend when the money is not there. Everyone everywhere is having to tighten their purse straps and if the government(at any level) is to fix it's financial problems it would only make sense for them to do the same.
I'm sorry if this in any way diminishes the warm and fuzzy self righteous feelings you get from defending them but the timing of this is just bad.
Posted by wirewatt (anonymous) on January 9, 2009 at 10:08 a.m. (Suggest removal)
They knew what the job payed when they ran for office. The moral of the employee's has probably hit an all time low. How do you vote yourself this kind of raise when your employee's haven't had a raise for five years plus and your job had a raise within two years give or take.
Two or three jobs could be replaced by a County Manager with an assistance and still save money and let the CC make policy, approve budgets and not try to micro-manage the day to day operations. Yes you spend alot of hours as a CC, but they should have known that coming in. Put it on the ballot in April and see what happens!!!!!
Posted by truelovecharlie (anonymous) on January 9, 2009 at 10:50 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I propose that the public put the incoming commisioners to task to vote down the raise or make certain they will not get re-elected. As I said earlier; their hourly breakdown is very high and to get benefits for a part-time job that many full-time workers don't get is rediculous. They call these people "public servants"; they should only be running because they have a deep desire to improve their community. Yes, they should be paid for their services, but reasonably paid. As for the phone calls and people cornering them with questions and concerns wherever they go; that goes with the territory of any public servant. I will have ZERO respect for the incomming commisioners if they accept this raise, during these turbulant times.
Posted by open_eyes (anonymous) on January 9, 2009 at 11:49 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I think that people have made excellent points on both sides. However, I think it all comes down to a poor sense of timing.
Yes, it may be a thankless job, underpaid, lots more work involved than meets the eye. Yes, the voters are always going to complain when anyone votes themself a pay raise.
BUT - right now, our economy is in shambles and tanking fast. People are being laid off left and right, taking pay cuts, losing benefits, being asked to work more hours for less pay.
THAT'S the way things are RIGHT NOW.
All the arguments that they deserve more are just fine, and merit consideration, but NOW IS NOT THE TIME.
We ALL deserve more - again, people are taking pay cuts & being laid off left and right. WE are all being asked (or TOLD) to tighten our belts and suck it up.
So THEY need to realize that AT THIS TIME they need to do THE SAME.
Period.
Posted by yellow82 (anonymous) on January 9, 2009 at 12:22 p.m. (Suggest removal)
How about giving a raise to those in the county jail, my husband hasn't had a raise in 3 years!!!!
Posted by gogreen (anonymous) on January 9, 2009 at 12:23 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I hobble my verry pregnant butt to work everyday to just make 8 bucks an hour. After losing my job at the factory, this is all I could find. I know so many other people stressing out about finances and worrying over losing their homes, while these guys get to vote on wether they get a raise....
Posted by b3bill (anonymous) on January 9, 2009 at 12:37 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I certainly hope Davis and Briggs will get plenty of questioning about proposing and voting for this 15.62 percent raise whenever they're out and about. They should have to face the taxpayers on this, as well the other county employees.
I commend Miller for taking the high road and voting against the raise. Shame on Davis and Briggs for the careless spending. You both are great examples of very poor leadership by implementing this unbudgeted raise, especially in the current financial times. It seems both must have a good amount of arrogance to do this. Too bad Briggs isn't leaving his position too since it consumes so much of his own time and resources.
Posted by open_eyes (anonymous) on January 9, 2009 at 12:42 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I haven't had a raise in quite awhile, I didn't even get to use all the vacation I was owed last year. I'm overworked and underpaid, so I sympathize with them there - BUT - I don't have the luxury of voting myself a payraise. As a matter of fact, I'll probably be laid off in a few months.
NOW IS NOT THE TIME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So don't whine to me anymore about how thankless it is, or how underpaid it is. I BELIEVE you, I'm SURE IT IS. But RIGHT NOW we are all having to suck it up and go thru hard times, and be at best, underpaid and overworked, at worst, unemployed.
NOW IS NOT THE TIME!!!!!!!
If our elected officials are too stupid to recognize that, then they absolutely deserve to be voted out at the very next opportunity. Every one of them.
Instead of voting themselves pay raises, maybe they should ask for a government bailout package....
Posted by methusla (anonymous) on January 9, 2009 at 1:11 p.m. (Suggest removal)
alfalfa: I am assuming by your comments that you are one of the County Commissioners that believe that you are underpaid and overworked !
Take a look at the following,
Commissioner salaries through the years:
F Jan. 1989: $8,305.18
F Jan. 1999: $9,796.80
F March 1999: $10,090.60
F Dec. 2001: $10,756.98
F Dec. 2002: $12,918.10
F Jan. 2004: $15,080
F Jan. 2006: $15,995.20, the board also approved an additional $1,000 per year for the chairman of the board
As you can see the County Commissioners have voted themselves a pay raise every one to two years since 1999, which by the way was a year in which they voted themselves two pay raises.
The current pay raise that the County Commissioners are proprosing to give themselves amounts to approxiamately 15.62%, which amounts to the largest pay raise yet.
A statement has been made here that you as Commissioners are the same as CEOs of a large multi-million dollar business.
If that is true, then you must and have to think of all the citizens of Lyon County, etc. as stockholders in that company and expect to see some positive results of your work and have a bonafide right to demand to know why you believe that you deserve and need a pay raise and demand that you prove that you need and deserve a raise, especially when we, as stockholders and company bill payers and cash cows for the company( County) are experiencing at this point in time particulary hard and lean times and losing jobs and incomes at an alarming rate.
Maybe you do deserve a pay raise, I don't really know. But I do know that giving yourselves a pay raise at this time, and especially a raise of approx. 15.62%. I believe is a little selfish and thoughtless.
Posted by open_eyes (anonymous) on January 9, 2009 at 1:48 p.m. (Suggest removal)
There is a time and a place for everything. Even voting yourselves raises. There are times when the economy is good, things are looking up, the cash is flowing, and we all get our well-deserved raises. Then, there are tough times when we all deserve more, but it is not the right time - times when we need to tighten the belt and tough it out till times get better.
Take a look around you at the economy right now - just which time do you think this currently is?
Posted by romano1784 (anonymous) on January 9, 2009 at 3:28 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Having worked for the city of emporia for a year as a garbage man, i am outraged. I no longer work for them but when i did I made a whopping $9.72 an hour. I worked in every type of weather Kansas has to offer for just that much. They get phone calls? Decide the budget? Are constantly questioned? Let them pull 500+lb dumpsters thru snow and ice, at -10 out and see if they're job is as physically demanding as they're employees.
Posted by jaredfromsubway (anonymous) on January 9, 2009 at 5:29 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Given the figures presented, that works out to about $17.80 an hour. That's a small price to pay for putting up with the politics of a government office. If you think that is bad, you should see the rates you are paying at the federal level.
Posted by methusla (anonymous) on January 9, 2009 at 7:43 p.m. (Suggest removal)
jaredfromsubway: Therein lies the problem. All aspects of government, Local, County, State and Fedral has become like a team of runaway horses and needs to be reigned in and brought to realize exactly who pays their salarys and that they do not have a free reign to do whatever they wish and when they do stupid things at unoppertune times their constituants are going to get upset.
Posted by LifeGoesOn (anonymous) on January 9, 2009 at 8 p.m. (Suggest removal)
jaredfromsubway 17 bucks an hours aint bad I suppose, problem is they employees that do all the work to keep the county running have not seen any decent cost of living raises for years, My problem is that the commission has given themselves approx $1000 per yr raise since 1999, and the employees that have been with the county for that same ten years have gotten about 4 to 6 percent worth of COL raises.
I mean look at Mr Briggs, he has been there 2 years, started out at $15,995 per year, now he is making over $19,000 per yr as commission chairman, that my friend is BS! The commission should get no more of a raise than the employees do, if the employees get a 2% COL raise, That Is All the commission should get, maybe the county commission should relize that, if all three of them were gone, the county would continue to run, without the employees there, the county would fall apart in a matter of days!
Posted by sunshine (anonymous) on January 9, 2009 at 8:26 p.m. (Suggest removal)
It isn't right. That's the bottom line. It makes me feel like they don't think the rest of us are as important as they are. True, the same scenarios may be playing out all over the world, doesn't change the fact that it is wrong.
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