Close Gitmo
Emerson Lynn Jr.
Saturday, August 8, 2009
Close Gitmo
WHEN THE U.S. shuts down the prison camp in Guantanamo it must move the 229 remaining detainees to another prison somewhere in the U.S. They are our prisoners. It is our responsibility to house them, release them or turn them over to authorities in other countries.
It also is our responsibility to deal with them according to U.S. and international law.
To achieve these goals the administration is proposing creation of a courtroom-within-a-prison to eliminate the need to ship prisoners from prison to courtroom, which might entail moving them from state to state, creating difficult security problems.
Officials are looking at the military penitentiary at Fort Leavenworth and a maximum security prison in Standish, Mich., as possible locations to house the prisoners.
Moving detainees to Ft. Leavenworth was loudly opposed Monday morning by Sen. Sam Brownback and Rep. Lynn Jenkins, who represents the Second District, which includes Leavenworth.
Most of the prisoners at Guantanamo have been held since the invasion of Afghanistan in 2003. Few have been charged with a crime. The evidence against many is based on hearsay and may not hold up in a trial that follows U.S. law. While it has been common practice to label the detainees “terrorists,” it has become increasingly clear that prisoners of war would be a more accurate description.
Sen. Brownback and Rep. Jenkins contend that remodeling the military prison at the fort, housing the prisoners there and beginning court proceedings would endanger Kansans.
To make the argument stick they would have to prove that our military is incapable of transporting the detainees from Cuba to Kansas and holding them in a maximum security prison without having them escape and terrorize the Leavenworth County countryside. Tough case to make. They were, after all, brought to Cuba from half way around the world without mishap. They have been held in Guantanamo in the middle of a country that considers the U.S. a mortal enemy without a single escape.
Why must we assume the military in Kansas can’t be as effective? When was the last escape from Leavenworth?
While this discussion was continuing, it was announced in Washington that a number of the detainees had been referred to federal prosecutors for possible criminal trials in the nation’s capital, Virginia and New York City.
If that decision holds, the number who might be sent to Kansas or Michigan would diminish and, presumably, so would opposition to accepting them.
The debate has turned political, as most discussions about what the nation should do about its problems seem to do in Washington these days. It is worth remembering, however, that President George W. Bush in the last year of his presidency also came out in favor of closing Guantanamo because it had become a symbol for our nation’s cavalier attitude toward the Geneva Convention and was seen abroad — and by many Americans — as a contradiction of our own fundamental laws and human rights principles.
Guantanamo should be closed for those very good reasons and also because it is in Cuba where there are no U.S. courts.
Bring them to Kansas, to Michigan or to the east coast courts which have had experience trying terrorists. Or try a combination of these solutions. But close Guantanamo and take definitive action with the detainees with deliberate speed rather than continuing to hold them without filing charges against them. Treat them, in other words, as we would have our prisoners of war treated: humanely and with due process of law.
Emerson Lynn Jr.
Bjnemp (anonymous) says...
"Treat them, in other words, as we would have our prisoners of war treated: humanely and with due process of law."
So, you would advocate torturing the captured enemy combatants in a barbaric and inhumane manner and then slowly decapitating them while being videotaped? Good grief, man. We are at war with religious radicals stuck in the 10th century. Death is the only "due process of law" they understand.
August 8, 2009 at 3:15 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
Here we go again....."not in my backyard" cry the naysayers. I'm agin it'''...jest like Im agin ever thing daat Baarack boy won't to do!
Reminds me of several years ago when the Kansas Department of Corrections wanted to build a prison on the east side of Emporia....."Im agin it".... they all said....."don't won't no prisners in my backyard." So the prison was built in ElDorado instead and it's economy is now thriving compared to Emporia's which is rapidly heading for the tiolet. If it brought some decent jobs to this town, I'd be happy if they moved Gitmo to the Broadview.
August 8, 2009 at 3:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
admireed (anonymous) says...
KDOC had suggested the old CofE campus. Citizens did not want it there.
August 8, 2009 at 3:50 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
Another site out near where the Camoplast (sp) plant is located was also discussed.....but I don't remember any more details now.
August 8, 2009 at 3:59 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
admireed (anonymous) says...
Yes, I think I remember that too. Problem is that once a prison or insane asylum is in a town, other developments turn their backs
August 8, 2009 at 4:13 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
wirewatt (Ken Bazil) says...
We have lost fellow soldiers in the two wars. These people don't deserve to be brought to trial in the United States. They we caught fighting on the battlefield without uniforms. This is against the Geneva Convention, they are being detained until they can be handled. Send them to the countries where they are from and let them take care of the problem. Bringing them to our soil will allow them to learn the guards names, and then endanger their families. They are where they belong until resolved by military courts. We need to quit being stupid and spending millions on reworking prisons to hold them, when where they are being held is a good as it gets. These people are not your next door neighbors, they are killers and bombers who care less about you but will use the freedoms of US to kill our people. If you think these people are being abused go talk to a Vet. and find out how these people feel about America and our allies. They send women and kids to blow people up with bombs strapped to their bodies. I think you need a good dose of reality along with the President.
August 8, 2009 at 4:31 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
pmh61 (Won Ton) says...
"""Reminds me of several years ago when the Kansas Department of Corrections wanted to build a prison on the east side of Emporia....."Im agin it".... they all said....."don't won't no prisners in my backyard." So the prison was built in ElDorado instead and it's economy is now thriving compared to Emporia's which is rapidly heading for the tiolet. If it brought some decent jobs to this town, I'd be happy if they moved Gitmo to the Broadview.
Posted by admireed (anonymous) on August 8, 2009 at 3:50 p.m. (Suggest removal)""""
I agree very much with Emporia has been given chances to move up in the world. Whoever is saying no to all of this needs to leave town before to long we are gona look like town of Reading. I don't know if there is any truth to this but I heard a few years back not for sure on how long. But Santa Fe railway tried to put in what I believe is call a Turnaround. Heard the city turned them down, for the reason of to much traffic on the rails. So they went up a few miles to gardener and guess what the same tracks that go threw gardener are the same ones here. So lost out on Great paying jobs that the rail road could have provided. Obviously what ever is going on here in MY HOMETOWN of once a promising Emporia is going down the drain. Something needs to change pretty much every where you look places are slowly closing. Maybe they Gazette could do an article on how to help this town or what being down wrong, or something. I my self am about ready to leave for the reason of there is nothing here anymore makes me regret coming back home. Taking a paycut 3 years ago to come back to the place I grew up, about to go back.
August 8, 2009 at 4:37 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
Most liberals believe that 9/11 was an inside job and probably don't believe terrorists even exist. That begs the question who are these people being held there if indeed they are even being held there that is if indeed there is even a "there". I think it would be good for everyone if the current administration would just release all the papers from the Bush years stating how he faked all this stuff to scare people into voting for him. For the life of me I can't figure out why President Obama is covering for Bush and even prolonging the lies. I guess President Obama just feels sorry for Bush or something cuz Bush is not pretty and he doesn't talk good American.
Seriously R. Folks
August 8, 2009 at 4:52 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
wirewatt......We have lost fellow soldiers in every war we have ever fought...I personally have lost members of my own family. If we all follwed your philosphy I guess we would have never gottem over our hatred of the Germans...the Japanese....or even the English.
It is exactly that type of blood fued philosophy that keeps the Middle east and eastern Europe in perpetual tumoil now.
As too their being killers and bombers...there are lots of killers and some bombers in our prisons now......apparently you think we are not smart enought to deal with the threat. I sir...respectfully disagree.
August 8, 2009 at 5:35 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
some people act like these gitmo detainees...if transferred here.....would be placed in some minimum detention facility with country club benefits. You know...the kind of place they put corporate executives who steal millions of dollars...rather that the hard time lock downs where they place common people for stealing a television.
I give the federal super max prison system...one of the toughest and most secure systems in the world.....credit for being up to the job. How much have you heard lately about the uni-bomber...or that jerk that blew up the federal bldg in Tulsa.... since they disappeared into the super max.
August 8, 2009 at 5:53 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
rabblerouser (anonymous) says...
I also heard that the facility at Gardner could have been put in Emporia out where the West Bound yards used to be and is now vacant. I heard that the then City Manager put a stop to it because of a burr up his you know what for the railroad. It would have meant many, many jobs and help to our economy, but this went to forward thinking Gardner instead. Emporia needs to wake up and welcome any and all businesses that want to come to Emporia. We drastically need to expand our tax base and give releif to the rest of us.
August 8, 2009 at 6:07 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
rabblerouser (anonymous) says...
And let's face it folks, if it doesn't help Main Street they fight it tooth and nail. It's great to help keep our mainstreet, but even that will only survive so long without help from outside and other businesses coming in that provide good paying jobs and reasons for people from outside of Emporia to come here and spend their money.
August 8, 2009 at 6:14 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
I don't think Emporia's propensity for shooting itself in the foot is a recent development.....I believe we might have come by it naturally. Adult conversations remembered from my childhood were of the powers that were at that time seeing Emporia as the Athens of Kansas....as such they had no desiere to see "lunch bucket brigades" in their high brow community.
If they could see us now!
August 8, 2009 at 6:26 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
reddog (K. B. Thomas Jr.) says...
if we are not going to get mo, we might as well close it.
August 8, 2009 at 7:12 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jamesbordonaro (James Bordonaro) says...
A well thought out letter. Although I don't necessarily agree that some sort of military tribunal could not have been preformed at Gitmo itself prior to allegations of torture, given that the detention facility is scheduled to be closed (as both Presidents Bush and Obama agree upon) it is unwise to initiate proceeding which are likely to last well beyond the time when the detention facility is to be shut down. We should also keep in mind that the government should be thinking about having an established procedure already set up to try captured senior Al Qaida leaders, such as Bin Laden or Iman Al Zawari, rather than the crazy court system set up in coordination with the interim Iraqi government that tried Saddam Hussein as it is highly likely they will be caught sometime over the next decade.
August 9, 2009 at 9:50 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Steve_Corbin (anonymous) says...
All those who were against the camp on the old C of E campus and later on the east side of town should wonder what kind of felons are being housed in the Lyon County Jail in downtown Emporia.
You know the ones that Johnson County doesn't want to deal with?
??????????????
August 9, 2009 at 10 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
I think people should try not breaking the law so we don't have to have prisons and jails. I can't believe nobody has thought of that before. Glad I could help.
Seriously R. Folks
August 9, 2009 at 10:28 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
reddog (K. B. Thomas Jr.) says...
someone in topeka said, reading anonymous reader comments online is like rubbernecking a car accident. you hate to stare or even admit you are staring at the managled wreck, but cant help it. if these intellectualss can get past the poor spelling and grammer maybe they might learn something. the real truth is most of these intellectuals have been educated far far far beyond their intelligence and they dont have a sense of humor.
August 9, 2009 at 10:35 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
I agree reddog...many people arn't near as smart as they think they are....I'm sure glad I'm not one of them! :-)
August 9, 2009 at 10:43 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
I wish I had a sense of humor.
August 9, 2009 at 11:06 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
reddog (K. B. Thomas Jr.) says...
concerning gitmo, what my heart knows today maybe my mind will understand tomorrow. it seems like to me that the function of intelligence in the bush administration should have taken more in account the dangers that come from trusting soley to the intelligence.
August 9, 2009 at 11:20 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
The only problem I see with that is that Dick Cheney is not pretty and Rosie O'Donnell says that there is no such thing as the "war on terror" and liberals which make up the majority of America believe her. Who are we to argue with her she had a TV show and knows some jokes. I mean for real.
Seriously R. Folks
August 9, 2009 at 12:57 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
gabby (anonymous) says...
Excuse me...but have you been to ElDorado lately, biscitboy?..They are thriving????..Seriously, they are thriving because they have a prison there?.
From everything I've read, Gitmo has a huge, beautiful, full function, bazillion dollar, court house...So, don't tell me they need to be brought to the U.S. for the courts..and, I don't want them to have any of the rights we do...They hate us...they don't deserve our rights..
Our soldiers have to read the Miranda rights to anyone they capture in Afghanastan, before they can ask them any questions..They are on foreign soil, and yet, we have to read them their rights. I don't care if they have the right to an attorney, or not, if they have information that will keep our country safe.
Sorry...but, I am not in the least bit sympathetic to anyone that is conspiring to destroy our country...I haven't forgotten 9/11......
I'm not worried about them escaping Fort Leavenworth, if they are brought to KS...but, I am worried about being a "bulls eye" for AlQaeda, or any of the other terrorists..(ooopss..I meant bad guys) that want revenge.
If you ask me if I think they should be tortured for information they have that could destroy America...or, if they have attempted to destroy America....the answer is YES...YES..YES...and, Leavenworth is a country club compared to what I think they deserve.....However, Gitmo IS a country club, so if they have to be coddled...let them stay there.
August 9, 2009 at 5:55 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
Yes gabby...I have been to ElDorado lately...and they are doing moderatly well compared to us. Is that all the prison's doing?...No! But it certainly doesn't hurt.
Now...If you would bother to take the time to read my post instead of just falling off your right wing high horse....and run off all half-cocked.....you would find I said nothing about how they were treated, or how they should be treated. My only real point was my confidence in my country to handle the problem on-shore.
Frankly...your claims about a bazillion dollar courthouse.....and Miranda rights in Afghanistan.....seem a little far-fetched to me...you may be right but I would like to see some proof. And remember, I don't accept Glen Beck as proof of anything.
One more thought. You say..."they hate us, they don't deserve our rights." Obviously you hate them.....maybe in their mind you don't deserve their rights either. Just a thought.
August 9, 2009 at 6:26 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
netloafer (anonymous) says...
biscuitboy
I don't know about Miranda rights in Afghanistan, but please read the following 2006 letter from the ACLU to the U.S. Senate regarding the Pentago plan to build a $100 million dollar facility there. One of the ACLU objections was that there was already a courthouse at Guantanamo.
http://www.aclu.org/safefree/general/...
An update from the Voice of America (May 2009) follows:
http://www.voanews.com/english/archiv...
August 9, 2009 at 6:45 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
Thank you netloafer
Of course I never really doubted we had court facilities at Gitmo capable of handling the tribunals that have been taking place there. I was more questioning a "hugh, beautiful, full-function, bazillion dollar courthouse." But I'll consider that one a draw......still waiting on Miranda rights. Of course...if we did indeed build a hugh, beautiful full-function bazillion dollar courthouse on a base we just lease from an unfriendly island government to try a relative handful of slime balls....I say shame on you Bush/Cheney for the shameful waste of taxpayer dollars. Where's the tea baggers when you need them.
August 9, 2009 at 7:03 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
"unfriendly island government"?
LOL
That government is what we are modeling our after!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9C97P1...
August 9, 2009 at 7:17 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
gabby (anonymous) says...
Biscuitboy....I'm sorry...my whole posting was not directed at you. I was seriously asking the question about ElDorado...because, I don't know much about them. I'm not a long time resident of Kansas.
Netloafer..I did think they built the courthouse...while I was posting today, Mitch McConnell was saying we had a nice courthouse in Gitmo...it was being used for Military commissions. I was wrong as to the bazillion dollars it cost...but, there IS a court house there..and, as far as I am concerned, if it is good enough for our Military, it's good enough for the terrorists..(bad guys)...
Examiner Bio Obama orders Miranda rights in Afghanistan
June 10, 10:49 PMFrisco Conservative ExaminerDavid Leach..
This was in a Kansas City newspaper....and, there has been quite a bit of discussion about it..
Biscuitboy- Thanks for the info about El Dorado. I've been through El Dorado, but, I didn't know they were doing better than Emporia..and I was surprised to see you post that.
Now..about your remark that they probably hate me and don't think I deserve their rights either....No doubt about it...I'm sure they do feel that way..I don't want their rights.
August 9, 2009 at 7:26 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
gabby......I don't either...was just pointing out that hatred cuts both ways. It can also cloud thinking, leading people and governments to do foolish and irrational things. That's why I am so concerned about so much of the hate-mongering and demonizing I see occuring now in politics. As Warren Pitts wrote in his column in the Gazette this weekend.....hate mongering can come back to bite you on the butt....[my wording, not his].
August 9, 2009 at 7:38 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
"That's why I am so concerned about so much of the hate-mongering and demonizing I see occurring now in politics."
Yeah, I mean it was ok last year but now things have "changed" and it needs to stop asap. LOL
August 9, 2009 at 7:44 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
gabby (anonymous) says...
right biscuitboy....It depends on who says it though...
I believe a lot of what is being done today is "free speech" and standing up for our rights!... You, and Warren Pitts, say it's hate mongering and demonizing.....
But when the far left goes out and does the same thing, I see it as hate mongering and demonizing...Betcha you see it as "free speech" and standing up for their rights???
However, it is now called...."manufactured mobs!".....:-)
But, I'll give it to you, there's probably going to be a lot of butt biting somewhere!
August 9, 2009 at 8:01 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
gabby (anonymous) says...
seriouslyfolks....yeah...How's that change working for you?
President Obama did warn us though...he said, while campaigning..(before he was elected.)..that we were the greatest country on earth, and he wanted us to vote for him and help him change it!....
How are we doing, so far?
August 9, 2009 at 8:12 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
reddog (K. B. Thomas Jr.) says...
according to a new survey congress approval is at 11 percent. the top 500 corporations in america are making less profits than back in the depression. these facts have been adjusted for inflation. the cash for clunkers will create the clunker bubble in about two years. a lot of first time homebuyers may not qualify for a home if their payments to income is out of balance. right after you buy a new car your credit score will drop according to bankers. i believe the cash for clunkers will have an adverse affect on certain depressed markets. we do not need to build a wall on the border, we need to build one around the belt way. by 1 october we will wake up some morning and find out that our money has been devalued. something shocking is in the cards, iam praying that i am wrong. good night and God bless.
August 9, 2009 at 10:31 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
dalelinn (Dale Linn) says...
Oh, Mr. Emerson and biscuitboy. You want to bring suspected terrorists to Kansas. "Most of the evidence against them is heresay". That makes me feel better. It also makes me feel better when you point out (not in context) that our military and prisons are almost infallible. It also makes me feel better to hear about the prison riot last evening in California. I guess I will have to assume Mr. Emerson is in the "bleeding heart" liberal class with good ole biscuitboy. I think we can put the messiah, the grand old lady leading the house of rep's, Ted Kennedy, Harry Reid, and quite a few others in that category. Let's also bleed a little bit for the poor treatment of the illegals that have flooded into our country. At last count one out of every ten Mexicans have crossed our border and are now living in the U.S. flooding our infrastructure, hospitals, schools, Rec. Centers, health dept.'s and the list goes on and on. Also, it was nice of us to ship our manufacturing base outside of the U.S. Things are so bad, now we need to go into socialized medicine. If we create enough crises', we have our ruling class ready with the answers. They won't work and are against the Constitution, but what the heck, let's be liberal about it. We'll all feel better about ourselves the more liberal we are. To heck with our kids and grandkids. They don't need what we had!
Seriously folks, we're getting change all right.
August 9, 2009 at 11:01 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
reddog (K. B. Thomas Jr.) says...
ralph nader said on election night that barack obama will be uncle tom for the big bankers and turn his back on 100 million poor people. our country is being hyjacked by international corporations. nuff said.
August 9, 2009 at 11:27 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
reddog (K. B. Thomas Jr.) says...
gitmoe is a distraction to the real crisis which is the world money problems. as i undderstand it, the plan is to ruin the dollar and the british pound. when this happens, we will beg for somekind of a bandaid and we will squeal for somekind of socialist scheme to quick fix the problem.
August 10, 2009 at 12:08 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
oxen......comments not worthy of comment.
August 10, 2009 at 3:57 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
It is no secret that over the past number of years [decades actually] the right wing-nuts set out to demonize the word liberal. And they were quite successful at it. I myself have heard people that actually were liberal make statements like "Well I'm no liberal but......" as they would then state some liberal ideal.
Recently that has started to change however, and I now hear people say "Yes....I am liberal and proud of it." That is driving the right wing crazy. In fact, if you look at recent poll numbers related to Republican congressional leadership and party approval ratings it appears the right wing-nuts are the ones that have been demonized.
And the beautiful thing is they did it to themselves. Heh, Heh Heh.
August 10, 2009 at 4:33 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
oxen......this is not a comment.....but a question.
Just exactly where in my post did I say anything about evidence--herasy or otherwise? In fact......just exactly where did I say anything about the treatment of said prisoners at all? One might be better served to know what they were talking about before opening their mouth
I await your reply oh luminous one.
August 10, 2009 at 6:10 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
oxen...I'm sorry, but when you make it so easy, I just can't pass it up.
After re-reading both of our posts on this thread there does appear to be one thing we do agree on......our military, and our "super max" prisons are virtually infallible. But your convoluted wing-nut logic seems to hold that wing-nuts and enlightened liberals can never agree on anything.
So since we do agree on this one point that means either I am a conservative wing-nut...or you are an enlightened liberal. But since making me a conservative wing-nut would render your entire post without any value at all.....why don't we instead decide that you then must also be a liberal like me,
You are welcome for my kindness.
August 10, 2009 at 7:05 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
dalelinn (Dale Linn) says...
biscuitboy, Evidently you misunderstand me. I do not think that our military and prisons, paticularly, are virtually infallible. Don't try to put words in my mouth. Of course everyone agrees with most everyone at times. Your logic (evidently based on your assumptions) doesn't lead in a very straight line. Thanks for your kindness anyway. To answer your 1st post to me: You did jump in right away defending the editorialists points. Therefore you got lumped together. If you detect irritation with liberals, you're right. Our country is about liberaled to death, by Republicans and Democrats.
August 10, 2009 at 8:21 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
How can a bazillion-dollar facility be a waste of taxpayer dollars? It's stimulus, baby! A courthouse to nowhere!!! - LOL
August 10, 2009 at 8:46 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
dalelinn (Dale Linn) says...
Would someone please tell me the difference between "stimulus" and living off of credit cards?
August 10, 2009 at 8:55 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
"if you look at recent poll numbers related to Republican congressional leadership and party approval ratings it appears the right wing-nuts are the ones that have been demonized."
(From March 2009 to current)
Obama approval ratings - down from 66 to 54 percent.
Democratic congressional approval ratings - down from 52 to 42 percent.
Republican congressional approval ratings - down from 40 to 36 percent.
Looks like it's not just right-wing nuts that are losing support.
Am I allowed to complain? Do I have to first make sure it is not organized?
August 10, 2009 at 9:07 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
So the "right wing-nuts" demonized themselves and the liberals had nothing to say on the subject? Mud slinging only goes one way, eh? Wow, I must have been in Bizzaro World for the last 8 years cuz I remember some liberals slinging some mud at the right wing nut job devil himself Hitler reincarnate Bush even at the height of his popularity. Remember a little country music group of gals that were ashamed of Bush being from Texas? I do. It's dang near imposible to get anybody from Texas to say anything bad about it or it's residents because everything is bigger and better in Texas including pride and ego. So for them to make statements like that it had to be out of pure hate. I know liberals don't believe anything not nice can come from their side but I disagree. We can all self justify our own behavior but that still doesn't make it actually just.
August 10, 2009 at 9:15 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
open_eyes and seriouslyfolks......I stepped on some toes there I guess...huh.
August 10, 2009 at 12:13 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
I thought the Dixie Chicks made those statements as part of their free speech right to express opposition to the actions of their government. I guess that's only true when its right wing-nuts shouting down other speakers at town hall meetings. LOLOLOL
August 10, 2009 at 12:18 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
Is this what you were referring to by LOLOLOL?
http://www.frontpagemag.com/readArtic...
or this
http://www.pridesource.com/article.sh...
or maybe you meant this
http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2008...
Now I'm sure you can find just as many instances of the right doing the same thing (actually, I doubt if you can find AS many, but I'm sure there are plenty).
Point is - both "sides" do it. And I don't condone or care for it regardless of which side is doing it (shouting others down and not allowing the other side to even be heard). To act otherwise (as if it is only behavior by one side of the fence) is to be only half-informed. Meaning one gets most of their news from any of the major media outlets nowadays, which have a tendency to only half-inform their users. On both sides.
August 10, 2009 at 12:48 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
It might take awhile to read all the way thru the first article, there are quite a few instances listed over the last several years.
The second & third articles are interesting in that they consider the Minutemen a "hate" group and racist. Never once do they mention the word "illegal" when mentioning immigration.
August 10, 2009 at 12:52 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
Since it is a long read, I thought I'd cut/past my favorite from the first article. I loved the writer's sarcasm.
In mentioning how the protestors rushed the stage and knocked over tables and chairs to prevent the founder of the Minuteman Project and his colleagues from speaking, and in recounting their clever chants such as “Minutemen, Nazis, KKK – racist fascists go away,” and “Duck, frog, pig, pup – you spread hatred, so shut up!”, he added this line:
"To prove their commitment to fighting racism, protestors shouted the “N-word" at black Minuteman Marvin Stewart. But it was in a good cause, combating hate speech."
Now THERE's a LOL for ya. But not really all that funny.
August 10, 2009 at 1:11 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
"I thought the Dixie Chicks made those statements as part of their free speech right to express opposition to the actions of their government. I guess that's only true when its right wing-nuts shouting down other speakers at town hall meetings."
That's exactly what I'm talking about. You say what they said is just free speech but what the looneytoon whacked out right wing crazy floppity floos say is demonizing. I say either it is free speech both ways or it is demonizing both ways. It can't conveniently work out that one side is always just in doing something and the other is evil for doing the same thing. It just can't be that way.
August 10, 2009 at 1:26 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
seriouslyfolks, in biscuitboys defense, I think he meant speaking out and voicing ones opinion as opposed to shouting and trying to drown out others, or using violence to prevent other points of view, as detailed often in my links above.
Now, I've watched some of the videos of the AARP and other townhall meetings. And I see a huge difference, however, between a bunch of senior citizens demanding to be heard, and the incidents I listed above. I'm sure there are always some bad apples in every bunch - but in the cases I listed above..... were there ANY good apples at all?
Can anyone explain to me why this one "quietly went away" and was dropped?
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi...
August 10, 2009 at 1:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
My overall point was that both sides use free speech to try to demonize the other but don't want to admit that is what they are doing because they feel just in doing it. I call foul on both sides. I have said before that this tactic is not only wrong but doesn't work very well and I have sighted as an example the way the GOP went after Clinton for being a philanderer. The GOP is still hurting from that, I think in part because many people realize that the GOP took it too far and maybe Clinton didn't deserve all that. I kept hoping that people would realize that Bush didn't deserve all the flack he got but it is evident that in most peoples minds he is a demon. Sometimes I feel as if I am the only one with an objective view of Bush. I don't see him as a demon and I don't see him as a great leader, I see him as a flawed man who got blamed for stuff that a lot of other people were and are responsible, like hurricane Katrina. That was obviously Cheney. I guess maybe it's easier for my conservative mind to see when "my side" is demonizing the other than it is for the "other side" to see it when they are doing it to "my side". That's too bad.
August 10, 2009 at 2:04 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
seriouslyfolks, I agree with you 100%. But I still disagree with anyone shouting down someone and not allowing them to be heard. The Dixie Chicks were not "shouting anyone down". They were just being idiots. (And doing it from a platform where it was pretty much impossible to be "shouted down"......they could have just turned up the amps and drowned everyone out if they started booing too loudly - LOL :)
I'll bet Logjam never said anything that stupid in public :)
August 10, 2009 at 2:17 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
The Dixie Chicks said that, at pretty much the height of Bush's popularity and I remember people using their free speech and boycotting the band for saying what they did. They(the band) were made out to be victims in the media because their fans turned on them and all they were doing was using their free speech. The fans were made out to be turncoats for the boycot even though they were just exercising their freedom. Something never quite sat right with me about that. I guess the media felt as though the band had a right to express themselves while the fans didn't. Maybe it had something to do with what each was saying. That would be my guess.
August 10, 2009 at 2:27 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
dalelinn (Dale Linn) says...
Bush came across as a bumpkin. He was not very smooth. Of course maybe the people of the time thought Abraham Lincoln was a bumpkin, but I don't think there was as much control exerted over a president at that time. I put more and more credence to the "conspiracy" theory of John F. Kennedy's assisination now than I used to. It seems more than a coincidence that the last few presidents have refused to do anything to stop illegal immigration. It is hard to believe that they let 1/10 of the Mexican population move in on us. Importing cheap labor and exporting jobs, it's just too much of a coincidence to be chance. It's also hard to believe that the U.S. citizens have let it happen. Now the people have let the presidents squander their childrens money so the pain can be put off a little longer, even though the pain will be that much more. It seems that more people are starting to awaken to what Obama has in store for us. I don't have much to say about any of the "entertainers". They, the media, and our educators, on the whole, do not seem well versed on real life.
August 10, 2009 at 3:42 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
open_eyes is exactly right...there is a difference between exercising your right to free speech and shouting down opponents. The Dixie Chicks used their right to free speech in an upfront open handed way that cost them dearly in terms of money and fan base. But....to their credit...they took their lumps and stuck to their guns.
Their fans that dumped them for what they did were also exercising their rights.,,,and though I disagreed with their actions.... I never questioned their right to do it. I can not...and do not....however condone one group of people using bully tactics to deny others the right to speak.....no matter which side they are on. But the minuteman incidents are no longer on page one at the moment.....the health care town halls are. And constantly dredging up every past wrong that has ever been committed every time the town hall meeting hooligans are brought up smacks to me of an attempt to whitewash their actions by diverting attention away from them. Everybody has admitted over and over that wrongs have been committed on both sides.....so what else than a whitewash causes us to have to re-hash everything when only one thing is currently happening.
August 10, 2009 at 5:35 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
The problem is..... those doing it often do NOT admit to wrongs committed by both sides..... only the other side. And............... why was it not hashed out when it happened? Half of these instances I've shown people never even heard of. WHY? Is our media...... (GASP)........a tiny bit slanted? (Witness the CNN reporter ripping the tea party people, while calmly reporting on the Bush "Nazi" march and not saying a bad word to anyone). Diverting attention......... maybe there's some attention that should have been diverted to a few things long ago, and much more attention than the media ever gave them. How does everyone feel about the Black Panther case being dropped? Do you think we would have heard more about it if they were a group of "Young Republicans" doing the exact same thing?
Of course, with Patrick Kelley writing the editorials, we sure never heard about approximately 1/2 to 2/3 of the stories I would have liked to discuss over the last several years.
Attention was "diverted".........
Sorry, I just love plastering this quote again - can't help it.....
"To prove their commitment to fighting racism, protestors shouted the “N-word" at black Minuteman Marvin Stewart. But it was in a good cause, combating hate speech."
August 10, 2009 at 6 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
biscuitboy
The reason the old stuff got brought back up is because you seemed to be saying that demonizing is something that only the right does. Perhaps you don't feel this way and I think you probably don't but it seemed that way. Both sides do it and it is wrong, neither can clame innocence. I have not seen any of what is going on at the town hall mettings but from what I have heard it is disgusting and I don't approve.
August 10, 2009 at 6:30 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
I don't know why the minuteman incidents you speak of received little or no knowledge at the time....in fact I have never heard of them until now.
That might be because the mainstream media chose not to cover them for political reasons...as you suggest. Since the coverage they did receive appears to be only in the conservative media...it is also possible the reporting is somewhat less than objective. That also could be why the mainstream media did not cover them. And I'm sure their could be many other reasons both positive and negative. But I don't know.
But I also know the tea party reporting by the CNN corespondent was widely shown and criticized in the mainstream...even by CNN itself on its Sunday Morning program. So the negative press isn't reserved entirely for conservatives.
And I really don't see how you can even suggest that President Bush was viewed as critically as early in his first term as President Obama has been in his. Bush walked on water until the WMD claim collapsed.....but every news cast now is filled with coverage of republicans criticising Obama for everything from where he wasn't borne.....to where he takes his wife for dinner. But Bush pretty much lived in the friendly skies on his way back and forth to the ranch.
I'll bet Obama would love to have the cosy press coverage Bush had through his first two hundred days.
August 10, 2009 at 7:08 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
dalelinn (Dale Linn) says...
Somebody please tell me that biscuitboy was using dry humor when he said "I'll bet Obama would love to have the cosy press coverage Bush had through his first two hundred days." as YY4U was using when he said "Don't worry about the national debt, the current administration has a plan..".........please?
August 10, 2009 at 7:19 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
oxen you have apparently forgotten how Bush was treated with kid gloves until his war with Iraq started going south. Well...they say memory is the first to go.
August 10, 2009 at 7:28 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
Bush was treated with kid gloves early on? Everyone was calling him president select and that is right after he "won" the first election. I'd say that was pretty early on. Where did I hear this? Oh yeah, it was on the news. So the media covered people in and out of the government calling Bush names like president select and saying he stole the election and that was kid gloves but now they cover the repubs not worshiping Obama and suddenly that's too harsh?
August 10, 2009 at 7:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
dalelinn (Dale Linn) says...
biscuitboy, Quite possibly I am losing my memory, but I would hasten to point out that Obama has not ever been treated badly by the press. Maybe John F. was treated so well, but I don't remember anyone else. I don't think Bill Clinton was treated this good. Maybe it's not your memory you are losing.....................?
August 10, 2009 at 7:59 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
Ok seriously....have it your way.......no republicans have ever did anything wrong and no democrat has ever done anything right. The mean old press however is always out to get the wonderful republicans while giving a free pass to the evil incarnate democrats. And since I have said this...it proves that I am just as mean as the rest of those damned liberals that are totally destroying the wonderful world my republican friends have built for me
Oh...but don't forget.....I'm not at all partisain.......no...in fact I'm an independent that doesn't really like either party.....but I just know I like republicans more that I do democrats...but I really don't like either.....I'm an independent.
Give me a break!
August 10, 2009 at 8 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Steve_Corbin (anonymous) says...
can't we all get along?
August 10, 2009 at 8:23 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
dalelinn (Dale Linn) says...
aw, all right.
August 10, 2009 at 8:24 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...
"My overall point was that both sides use free speech to try to demonize the other but don't want to admit that is what they are doing because they feel just in doing it. I call foul on both sides. I have said before that this tactic is not only wrong but doesn't work very well and I have sighted as an example the way the GOP went after Clinton for being a philanderer. The GOP is still hurting from that, I think in part because many people realize that the GOP took it too far and maybe Clinton didn't deserve all that." This is what I said.
"I have not seen any of what is going on at the town hall mettings but from what I have heard it is disgusting and I don't approve." and this is what I said.
This is what you think I say. "Ok seriously....have it your way.......no republicans have ever did anything wrong and no democrat has ever done anything right." The two don't match.
August 10, 2009 at 8:31 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Bryant (anonymous) says...
I think that the liberal method of getting information might be a good idea. Besides.....has anyone yet said "with sugar on it"?
August 10, 2009 at 9:36 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
Bush's approval ratings before 9/11 were in the 53% range, roughly where Obama is now, never as high as he had until AFTER 9/11. Mostly what I remember about the early days of Bush's presidency was all the screaming about the 2000 election. I have absolutely no clue where you got that he walked on water for the first 200 days. It was only AFTER 9/11 that he was nearly untouchable for a time.
And we're both right on the reporting. I saw plenty of the incidents (on Fox, of course) about the shouting down of conservative speakers, Minutemen, Ann Coulter, etc......... but stop and think for just a second: If these incidents are all verifiable, on video......... then which reporting is it that "lacks some objectivity"? Those that show it for exactly what it is...... or those who ignore it?
August 11, 2009 at 12:10 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
I used the lack of objectivity as one of several possible reasons for the minimal coverage.....not the only reason.....or even the most plausible one.
But having worked in the TV news business for a while back when Clinton was still governor of Arkansas I can assure you that a tv camera is more of a paint brush than an honest documentor of the truth. It only portrays what you point it at.....and as such can be used very selectively to say what you want it to say. And technological advances in virtual reality since that time has made that even worse.
Having said that.....your lack of objectivity statement about whether you chose to show it or ignore it is absolutely true and was the first thing I listed as a reason for the lack of widespread coverage. We all often read what we want to read also.
seriouslyfolks.....I understand your overall point...but in my opinion there is also an under-all point in what you say. Yes....you have condemned the screamers......but to my knowledge.....you have seldom if ever initiated that condemnation. Instead you give it only after you have listed a litany of past wrongs and injustices on the other side to justify why its being done. That qualified condemnation speaks as much or more to the truth as the condemnation itself.
This is of course only my opinion....and like I just said we all at times read only what we want to read.
As to "President Select Bush".....it is not left wing manufactured propaganda that he entered office his first term with fewer popular votes that his opponent. Its not propaganda that he instead was elected strictly by the electoral college. In my mind that then is fair game for commentary, not some smear attack on a person for no reason. I probably erred some what however in using the first hundred or two hundred days as a benchmark.
But any body that says he didn't get cupcake coverage following 9/11 is either stupid or lying. And that coverage lasted until questions about our reasons for entering Iraq became impossible to ignore. So oxen, I hope that satisfies your need for accuracy in everybody's post except your own. :-)
August 11, 2009 at 2:59 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
biscuitboy (anonymous) says...
One more thing open_eyes
What...we are crying big crocodile tears for Ann Coulter. Ann Coulter has made a career and a fair amount of money off of being as rude and obnoxious as its possible to be. Nothing that could be done to her is any worse than what she has done to others.
She and that Garafalo chick are flip sides of the same coin.. The difference is however that Garafalo only appears in fringe venues where Coulter sets at the head table. I have heard Garaflo called every thing but a human being....then you set here and bemoan the poor treatment given to Ann baby by those unfair liberals.
Please explain to me what it is about Coulter that gives her the right to compassion that Garaflo doesn't share. They are both rude, spiteful, hate-mongers.
What I would really like to see is both of them reduced to mud wrestling each other in a pig sty. That would be the best use of both their talents.
I really don't understand how you can defend Coulter with a straight face while crying about foul play on the other side. You can do better than that.
August 11, 2009 at 4:03 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
I do defend everyone's right to be heard and not shouted down. That ALSO includes those you don't agree with. I defend Garafalo's right to speak without getting a pie slammed in her face (or attempted to) just as vehemetly as Coulter's. If you read back thru my post, you will see she was only briefly mentioned in passing, since she was mentioned in the article I linked to. What one person calls rude and obnoxious is another person's "champion of truth" at times. I'm sure those who consider the Minutemen racists, and called the black Minuteman the N-word believe Garafalo to be a leading voice for their fight against racism. And there are those who consider Coulter to be just the same. Not saying I'm a big fan (of either) - just saying they still deserve their say. If they make an idiot of themselves (and actually damage their cause more than help it because of their methods) then so be it. They still deserve to appear without a cream-pie in their face. Yeah, we might both think they'd be better off mud-wrestling in a pig sty, and we jeer and mock them and what they say, but, in all seriousness....... they still deserve their say. The First Amendment still applies to them as well. Straight-faced and all.
August 11, 2009 at 9:02 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
USNretired (anonymous) says...
Leavenworth is far more than just the prison on its grounds. I love hearing the ignorant pontificate and spread their misunderstanding. Do some homework, Emerson, then recant.
August 11, 2009 at 8:16 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Steve_Corbin (anonymous) says...
Instead of a visitor center, close Gitmo and bring the 229 prisoners to Emporia, make them construct the guard towers and put up the razor wire. 110 pup tents, 2 prisoners per tent, the other 9 would have to make do. maybe a rotation on tents for good conduct. Talk about bringing in tourists? The only down side I see is the herd of high priced lawyers following them into town:)
August 11, 2009 at 8:39 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
But in our new socialist economy Leavenworth will then get more stimulus money to make them on equal footing. And we'll pay more in taxes to replace what we took from Leavenworth.
Isn't that how it works?
In other words........... why bother?
August 11, 2009 at 11:22 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )