Happiness08 (anonymous) says...

My husband and I were recently in the Wagon Wheel to eat supper. I was impressed with how clean the place is. I certainly didn't smell any cigarette smoke, and I certainly would have since I am a non smoker. The point being that I believe that the Wagon Wheel is a non smoking establishment, so I believe that Brenda is sincere in her remarks that this issue is about freedom of choice. My feelings are that if you have to be 21 to go in a place then that is entirely up to the individual if they want to be around smoke or not. Smoking in our local Walmart would be a different issue.

September 26, 2008 at 2:52 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Steve_Corbin (anonymous) says...

Well said Brenda. Will see you at the meeting Mon. night.

September 26, 2008 at 2:54 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

jayhawker (anonymous) says...

Brenda: You nailed it. This proposal is straight out of Josef Stalin, Adolph Hitler, Saddam Hussein and all of the other dictators of the world. Somewhere in America, we need to take a stand against dictatorial regimes in our very midst. In Emporia, we can do two things to tell the dictators that they are not welcome here: vigorously oppose this ban, and with equal vigor oppose Mrs. Walter's candidacy for the County Commission.

September 26, 2008 at 4:56 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

josiesbar (anonymous) says...

"I don’t have to tell you things are bad, everybody knows things are bad: It’s a depression! Everybody’s out of work, or scared of losing their job; the dollar buys a nickel’s worth; banks are going bust; shop-keepers keep a gun under the counter; punks are running wild in the street; nobody anywhere seems to know what to do and there’s no end to it! We know the air is unfit to breathe and our food is unfit to eat. We sit watching our TVs whilst some local newscaster tells us that “today we had fifteen homicides and sixty-three violent crimes” as if that’s the way it’s supposed to be! We know things are bad, worse than bad: they’re crazy! It’s like everything everywhere is going crazy, so we don’t go out anymore! We sit in the house and slowly the world we’re living in is getting smaller and all we say is “please, at least leave us alone in our living-rooms - let me have my toaster and my TV and my steel-belted radials and I won’t say anything! Just leave us alone!” Well I’m not going to leave you alone. I want you to get mad! I don’t want you to protest, I don’t want you to riot, I don’t want you to write to your congressman because I wouldn’t know what to tell you to write, I don’t know what to do about the depression and the inflation and the Russians and the crime in the street – all I know is that first you’ve got to get mad! You’ve got to say “I’m a human being goddammit! My life has value!” So, I want you to get up now, I want all of you to get up out of your chairs! I want you to get up right now, and go to the window, open it, and stick your head out and yell “I’m as mad as hell, and I’m not going to take this anymore!"

September 26, 2008 at 4:59 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

create (anonymous) says...

Ah yes, Josie's. Good quote from "Network." Another click for you!

September 26, 2008 at 5:19 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Newsie (anonymous) says...

Jayhawker, you gotta be kidding. You compare the ban on smoking to these killers of millions of innocent people? Oh wait, smoking does kill...and not just the smokers..

September 26, 2008 at 11:03 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Steve_Corbin (anonymous) says...

Happiness08: You went to the Wagon Wheel to eat and were impressed by how clean it was. That is because Brenda takes care of business. You also said " I certainly didn't smell any cigarette smoke, and I certainly would have as I am not a smoker" "The point being is I think the Wagon Wheel is non-smoking."
Well they ARE a smoking establishment and it shows that you can be, and still not have second hand smoke billowing around. This issue IS about the right of choice of a property owner to allow the use of a legal product on their property.

September 27, 2008 at 6:19 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

jayhawker (anonymous) says...

Newsie: Yes, there is a direct correlation between the despots that I mentioned (Stalin, Hitler, etc.) and this proposal. They were absolute dictators. They cared not a whit about individual property or personal rights. That is the defining characteristic of a dictatorship. If Hitler got a whim to limit smoking in German businesses, he simply ordered it done without a single thought or care about what it would do to the business owners. Have you, Newsie, seen any evidence (even a shred) that The Clean Air Central Committee cares at all about what it will do to business owners or cherished personal property rights? I'll answer for you - they care about these weighty concerns no more than Hitler did.

September 27, 2008 at 12:04 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Newsie (anonymous) says...

OK. Hitler killed millions. The Clean Air Committee killed how many?

Jayhawker, your comparison is an insult, grossly inappropriate and downright dumb. You should be ashamed.

September 27, 2008 at 7 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

jayhawker (anonymous) says...

Newsie, if you can't see the obvious dictatorial and un-American aspects of this proposal, I'm afraid that you and I must agree to disagree. Since I see it, I submit that a comparison between the Clean Air Central Committee and dictators, both of whom lack respect for American freedoms, is on all fours. You need not kill someone to contribute to the death of personal and property rights, for which men have died. Many of those men died in opposition to dictators. Now we have aspiring dictators in our very midst.

September 27, 2008 at 8:36 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

methusla (anonymous) says...

Newsie;
I can't speak for jayhawker nor interpret the point he was trying to make, but I will only say this in addition, Hitler and Stalin were both dictators who took away the citizens of their countrys' rights and freedoms, and for that matter much of the rest of Europes citizens rights and freedoms and this act resulted in a Totalitarian State, where any opposition to the will of the government was punishable by imprisonment or death, usually the latter, my point being this, if this ban is approved, Emporia possibly even the nation may be one step closer to a Totalitarian State and I don't think anyone wants that to happen, even the clean air advocates.

September 27, 2008 at 11:19 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

methusla (anonymous) says...

P.S.
I would also like to ask, how many businesses or industries do you think will want to locate in a place that will dictate to them how their business is to be run and which customers they can allow to shop or work there.
I know if I were a business or corporation that was looking for a place to establish a store,etc and found out that Emporia was going to dictate to me how to run my business, I wouldn't even consider Emporia.

September 27, 2008 at 11:29 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

jayhawker (anonymous) says...

Good post, methusla. I wish that I had said it that well.

September 28, 2008 at 11:26 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

create (anonymous) says...

I agree with methusla, and also jayhawk's view especially that "Now we have aspiring dictators in our very midst." Both views reveal the fundamental issue here. By this proposal, the CAE is requiring that everyone do as they say, and they have further included in the rules that those who do not comply will lose their license to do business. This smacks of Totalitarianism. What makes this even more dictatorial is that since only bars are licensed by the city, they are being selected. It is this selectiveness that makes it unconstitutional.

September 28, 2008 at 12:07 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

jayhawker (anonymous) says...

Good points, create, especially how only the bars are being "selected" for special enforcement. Instead of "selected", I would use Newsie's word: "targeted."

September 28, 2008 at 12:16 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

josiesbar (anonymous) says...

Jayhawker,
I prefer the term persecuted.

September 28, 2008 at 12:33 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

OutsiderJ (anonymous) says...

I was proud and amazed to see 2 full page ads in the Weekend Gazette. I applaud the efforts of Emporia's business owner's. Those of us for and against the ban can talk and argue until we are blue in the face, but I can't help thinking that our opinions don't quite have the weight of the opinions that this tyrany will effect the most

September 28, 2008 at 1:44 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

methusla (anonymous) says...

No matter what term you use, selected, targeted , persecuted singled-out or whatever, it is not right and unlawful to do any of the aformentioned, another possible term would be discrimination.

September 28, 2008 at 1:49 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

create (anonymous) says...

That's right methusla, discrimination. And as we all know, discrimination is unconstitutional. Many of us are indeed talking until we are blue in the face, but it's getting whittled down to some very simple levels like discrimination, the sort of thing that makes government people pay attention. See you all at the meeting.

September 28, 2008 at 6:30 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Bjnemp (anonymous) says...

OutsiderJ: Look again. I saw THREE full page ads against the ban, and one in favor of it. I was excited and proud to see the ads and applaud the patriots who paid for them.

September 28, 2008 at 9:04 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Bjnemp (anonymous) says...

I feel compelled to say something about this anti-smoking ban debate. I have lived in Emporia since 1995. I have always considered it a nice little town; relatively safe and clean and friendly enough to tolerate. But then this stupid CAE smoking ban idea was introduced by a small group of elitists with airs of entitlement and the city came alive. I have never seen such a backlash by honest, caring, involved citizens of any city. In many cities, the common folk would have stood silent and allowed the privileged pirates of privacy do their dirty deeds without so much as a whimper. Not here!

I have changed my opinion of Emporia, big time. I am downright proud to live among people like Jayhawker, rbow, Methusla, Create, OutsiderJ, Matt (Josies), Ms. Barret, and dozens more citizens and business owners who have fought hard against this tyranny.

I used to just live here, but now I consider Emporia my hometown. I feel most fortunate to live in a community where strangers from all backgrounds, smokers and non-smokers alike, can come together as one and fight for what is right, and defeat what is wrong.

Those of you who have posted continually against this attempt to erode our freedom, attended the meetings, contacted our commissioners, and helped run the full-page Gazette ads, make me proud to live here and call Emporia my home.

Thank you all. Beat the Ban!!

September 28, 2008 at 10:04 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

jayhawker (anonymous) says...

Thank you, Bjnemp. That was very nice and I appreciate it.

September 28, 2008 at 11:38 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

create (anonymous) says...

Thank you, Bjnemp. I love reading your posts not only for the ideas, but for the rhythm and alliteration. Privileged Pirates of Privacy indeed.

I myself, from a state far, far away, call Emporia home. It is safe and comfortable, yet when antagonists appear, a groundswell of defenders rise up to join forces. We are ever watchful and our numbers and willingness to fight should serve as a warning to any group that decides we are a quiet little town.

Imua!

September 29, 2008 at 9:19 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Newsie (anonymous) says...

you want to know what stupid is, BJ. Stupid is the people who feel they have the right to poison those around them with second-hand smoke. It would be one thing if smokers would limit their activities to homes and bars, but it is encountered everywhere.

Stupid is the people who deny their own addiction and try to claim their right to spew second-hand smoke trumps the rights of others who want to breathe less contaminated air. IF the smokers were willing to control their addiction and not force second-hand smoke on the non-smokers, there would be NO need for a ban.

Stupid is the smokers who think it is OK to discard their disgusting cigarette butts on the ground in our parks, school yards and sidewalks.

Smokers, you have had free reign for many, many years. Now, those who celebrate healthier lifestyles want their rights.

This isn't about God, or religion, or morals, or the uppity...IT IS ABOUT HEALTHY LIVING.

WHAT PART OF THAT DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND?

When you are you are dying in a hospital, your lungs so full of crap that you can't breathe, then remember this conversation. I can guarantee you won't be thinking if I could have just had one more cigarette.

Most of us who don't smoke will probably support this unfortunate ban. Had you been a little more courteous about when and where you smoked, this would not have been an issue.

Smokers DO NOT have the right to force second-hand smoke on anyone. Like many, I avoid it as best I can, but because a few see smoking and some kind of Constitutional right, the rest of us have to avoid places that we would like to go. You talk about the right to liberty and happiness, what about our rights to the same?

Smoke in your homes, smoke in the bars, just DON'T smoke around us. And for goodness sake, clean up after yourself. No one wants to be reminded that you are killing yourself.

Now excuse me while I get my fire-retardent suit. I am about to be flamed.

September 29, 2008 at 11:05 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Steve_Corbin (anonymous) says...

No argument Newsie, your right on the mark. Correct in everything you say, I couldn't agree more! Keep up the good work.

September 29, 2008 at 11:30 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Newsie (anonymous) says...

Thanks, rbow. I am glad we had that talk last night. Thanks for not beating me up. Next time the beer is on me. It really is a nice bar.

And thanks for coming around to my point of view. I appreciate that you have such an open mind.

September 29, 2008 at 12:42 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

OutsiderJ (anonymous) says...

"Smokers, you have had free reign for many, many years. Now, those who celebrate healthier lifestyles want their rights."

"Smokers DO NOT have the right to force second-hand smoke on anyone."

No one oposing this ban on this forum has ever said that smoker's have the right to smoke, or that proponents have the right to clean air.

It amazes me that you have no regard for the hard working business owner's who pour their heart, soul, savings, and time into a business. They are the ones risking it all to cater to the community. It should be no one's choice but their's who they serve and what type of legal activities they allow in their establishment. And it is insulting to them to say "you can serve anyone you like as long as you don't let them do this, or that, or the other thing." That what this is all about.

I understand health codes and business hours and occupancy and the like to protect the people. Those things dictate how a business must serve people. The reason that argument doesn't hold up here is because this is dictates who they serve.

September 29, 2008 at 2:52 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Deepthoughts (anonymous) says...

Outsider
It amazes me too. It is such a simple concept. Must be too simple.

September 29, 2008 at 5:21 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Newsie (anonymous) says...

I have a ton of respect for anyone who has the ambition to open a business. I have no respect for someone who puts profits above the health of others. If you can't run a no-smoking bar and make a profit, perhaps you need a new line of work.

September 29, 2008 at 6:43 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

neighbor (anonymous) says...

Do you realize how silly that comment makes you look Newsie?

How can you not recognize the hypocricy in your statement; "I have no respect for someone who puts the profits above the health of others" ?

Alcohol consumption is healthy? Perhaps you should open your own smoke free tavern/club, then you can make the decision for yourself.

September 29, 2008 at 8:22 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

MelissaE (anonymous) says...

Newsie, get over yourself. Smoking, drinking, bars, food, and a free society all go hand in hand. I believe it's called "free capitalism".

1. What is capitalism?
Laissez faire capitalism means the complete separation of economy and state, just like the separation of church and state. Capitalism is the social system based upon private ownership of the means of production which entails a completely uncontrolled and unregulated economy where all land is privately owned. But the separation of the state and the economy is not a primary, it is only an aspect of the premise that capitalism is based upon: individual rights. Capitalism is the only politico-economic system based on the doctrine of individual rights. This means that capitalism recognizes that each and every person is the owner of his own life, and has the right to live his life in any manner he chooses as long as he does not violate the rights of others.

You can read the rest here:
http://famguardian.org/Subjects/Polit...

No one is putting their profits above health. THey are putting their capitalism above government interventions. It's not a hard concept. Check into it.

Furthermore, if you don't like smoke, then STAY OUT. If you don't like alcohol, STAY OUT. If you feel that all smokers and/or drinkers are losers then STAY OUT.

EXCERISE YOUR RIGHT TO CHOOSE AND AVOID IT.

Otherwise, live and let live. I'd prefer it if you'd stop telling me how to live.

BTW--Laissez faire should be Italicized because it's LATIN (OMG!). But unfortunately, when posting here, I don't get the option to do that.

Melissa

September 29, 2008 at 8:25 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

MelissaE (anonymous) says...

I forgot to mention that I LOVE THE WAGON WHEEL'S RIBS. They are to-die for. I brought a whole order back to my dh when he couldn't make the trip to Emporia.

YUM! Keep up the great work!
Melissa

September 29, 2008 at 8:27 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Newsie (anonymous) says...

Actually, Mel, true Capitalism (with a capital C) like true Communism, is impossible to obtain. Can you imagine capitalism without some form of government meddling? Without goverment taxes, for example, how would we pay for government-provided services? No scholarships, no roads, no trash service, no nothing.

Neighbor: Sorry, but no I don't. Explain it to me.

September 29, 2008 at 10:33 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Newsie (anonymous) says...

Mel, I am particularly fond of the last line of the capitalism FAQ you cited:
"One may defend capitalism on the basis of its practicability as long as one is aware that the reason "it works" is because it is good theory."

What more needs to be said?

September 29, 2008 at 10:40 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Newsie (anonymous) says...

And further, to quote your own post:

..."capitalism recognizes that each and every person is the owner of his own life, and has the right to live his life in any manner he chooses as long as he DOES NOT VIOLATE THE RIGHTS OF OTHERS."

The question, then, is whose right trumps whose? Is your right to spew cigarette smoke trump my right to not breathe second-hand smoke? Even if I stay out of the bars and off private property, I can't escape second-hand smoke. It is, literally, everywhere.

September 29, 2008 at 10:46 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Newsie (anonymous) says...

And one last thing, Mel, laissez faire is French, not Latin.

laissez-faire. (n.d.). Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1). Retrieved September 29, 2008, from Dictionary.com website: http://dictionary.reference.com/brows...

September 29, 2008 at 10:56 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Steve_Corbin (anonymous) says...

Be careful Newsie,
Mel might think you are threatening him. Even if you are right and he is wrong he will never understand that. Hey were you at that meeting tonight? Pretty good little Town Hall meeting. Check out WIBW News for there un-biased coverage.

September 29, 2008 at 11:06 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Newsie (anonymous) says...

Thanks for the tip, rbow. I didn't go to the meeting. I can't imagine that there was anything said that wasn't already said. As I posted earlier, it is time for less rhetoric and more action.

By the way, I do support a vote by the public on this issue. And if I may suggest, a mail-back ballot has historically shown the best turnout...sometimes better than 50 percent. Seems to me that is the way to get a true read on the public's opinion.

I think we both know, as we discussed, that a ban is imminent. However, my guess it will not be the CAE proposal or the (for lack of a better term) smokers' rights proposal. It will be a compromise, I hope.

Have a good evening.

September 29, 2008 at 11:27 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Deepthoughts (anonymous) says...

Never thought I would say this, but I agree with Mel.

Newsie, perhaps you should try to be less bias in your post by calling it a "smokers' rights proposal" and maybe refer to it as a "private business/landowners' rights proposal" - which is what it is. I am not a smoker and I disagree with this ban, so your little nickname for it doesn't quite fly now does it?

September 30, 2008 at 7:59 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

josiesbar (anonymous) says...

"I am not a smoker and I disagree with this ban"

+1

September 30, 2008 at 8:25 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Penny (anonymous) says...

I can't wait for a second-hand smoke ban to be put in place, either by city ordinance or state law. Then, maybe I can take my car in for warranty work at Longbine's without side effects. You see, it's not just a bar issue, it is all workplaces. No, I'm not forced (as in taken at gunpoint) to go to Longbines, but it is very difficult to do warranty work anywhere else. I welcome the opportunity for my rights to be protected, though I suspect with Mr. Longbine on the Commission it will take much longer for this to happen as I fully expect this commission to wimp out and put it to a vote. I believe a vote will ultimately triumph but it will certainly take a lot longer. BTW, it appears to me that those who are being the most hateful about this issue were also some of the same ones spewing hate during the Somali debacle. Starting to see a trend here. BJ, you may feel more comfortable in this Emporia, but I kind of like the kinder, gentler version!

September 30, 2008 at 8:55 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

josiesbar (anonymous) says...

WHAT? This makes no sense! I can 100% guarantee you that if you stand in the garage for 30 seconds, almost all of the smoke you breathe is from car exhaust. Calling the commissioners wimps for putting this ban where it rightfully belongs is ridiculous! I believe if this comes to a vote, it will get overwhelmingly voted down. If you want the kinder, gentler version of Emporia, I am sure there is an empty apartment near Mass St.

September 30, 2008 at 9:04 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Weltha (anonymous) says...

I've been to Longbine's shop PLENTY of times for work and never have I ever smelled cig. smoke. exhaust fumes? but of course but never smoke.

September 30, 2008 at 9:09 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

josiesbar (anonymous) says...

Here is WIBW's piece about the meeting last night.

http://www.wibw.com/localnews/headlin...

September 30, 2008 at 9:40 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )