open_eyes (anonymous) says...

Here's your earliest AP fact-check:

http://apnews1.iwon.com/article/20081...

October 15, 2008 at 9:37 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

create (anonymous) says...

I am an American, Observation, and I did not lose. You don't speak for me!

October 15, 2008 at 10:13 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

open_eyes (anonymous) says...

I think it was pretty much a tie, much like the previous debate. When you're up by a field goal entering the 4th quarter, and each team scores 3 touchdowns, at the end of the game...... well you do the math.
Some races, it seems the debates are the pivotal or crucial, defining points in the campaigns. I don't think they were in this one.

October 15, 2008 at 11:20 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

hogan77 (anonymous) says...

Don't worry yourself about him create. He is just upset that Americans like Obama more than his precious McCain and his idiot running mate Palin.

Personally, I feel that Obama has hit home with me. As a lower income family, I want to make sure that I have insurance, that my child will be able to attend college and that her schools have enough funding to provide an excellent education, that we work harder to depend less on foreign oil and use more of our natural resources such as wind and solar energy, and that my taxes won't go up.

The one thing that ticked me off the most was when McCain said that Palin was a role model to all women. She is NOT a role model in my life, and never will be. While I feel that abortion is not right, I firmly believe that ALL women should have the right to choose, and their decisions will be dealt with when they meet their maker. Palin is one of those kinds that will run into office, with both guns swinging, all ready to take away the rights women have worked so hard to earn.

October 16, 2008 at 12:03 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

goodoleboy (anonymous) says...

Polls show Obama winning by a wide margin, and with this and a 10 point lead I can say with a degree of certainty that Obama will be our next president. Was also pleased to see Obama take the high ground and not skewer Palin like he could have. Anyone think it looked like McCain needed to go No.2 during the debate?

October 16, 2008 at 1:23 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

goodoleboy (anonymous) says...

I will give you this Open eyes, McCain put on his best show, I loved his comment about Bush. It's not enough though to lean me his way.

October 16, 2008 at 1:25 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

open_eyes (anonymous) says...

"his precious McCain and his idiot running mate Palin"......"will run into office, with both guns swinging, all ready to take away the rights women have worked so hard to earn."

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I present to you exhibit A, proof that incitement for hatred, disdain, and irrational mob-style crowd-frenzy-whipping fear-mongering are obviously NOT the sole property of the Republicans.

As far as "McCain needing to take a # 2"... good thing Obama took the high road, obviously his supporters here don't. Gee, seems to me like just yesterday I read an editorial here in the Gazette complaining about how only Republicans acted this way...... must have been in some parallel universe, I guess..... suddenly, for some odd reason, I feel strangely somehow more sympathetic to the "Obama is a Muslim terrorist" thinkers..... I wonder why.......

October 16, 2008 at 1:34 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Deepthoughts (anonymous) says...

Hey Hogan,
I don't want to pay for your kids' healthcare, so get another job that pays more or stop having kids! I'm sick of working to pay for everybody else. Take care of your own business. Of course you would vote for Obama - he's going to hand it all to you - I mean who would want to work if they can just have the government give them everything they need!

October 16, 2008 at 8:01 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

mythoughts (anonymous) says...

Obama won - yay! John McCain sounded like a mean old cuss. He would barely look at Obama, was disrespectul and snide. As Obama said, disagreeing doesn't mean being disagreeable. Obama was able to remain in control of his thoughts and emotions, was clear in his message, and continually fought to turn the message to a positive one of hope for us all.

As a well educated, yet lower middle class/upper working poor person trapped in rural Kansas, Obama is the best choice for me. He's going to help with the health care situation, the tax burden and the "war" that is bleeding our country beyond dry. Obama '08!

October 16, 2008 at 8:08 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

open_eyes (anonymous) says...

As someone who has seen quite a bit of the world at large, you should consider yourself fortunate to be "trapped" in such a great place as rural Kansas. The more I see of the world, the more I realize how lucky I was to grow up there. :)

October 16, 2008 at 8:47 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

create (anonymous) says...

Some people believe that as long as they've got theirs, then everybody else can suck wind. Must be those good Christian ethics.

Obama won this debate hands down. He was calm, cool, steady. While this may be mistaken for being flat, I'd rather have a thoughtful, proactive president who can keep his head in any situation than one who is reactive and disconnected from what the real problems are.

McCain did begin strong, I'll give him that much, but as soon as he began the attack on character, he lost it. Fidgeting, frowning, grimacing, he was performing, as David Gergen pronounced, "an exercise in anger management." Then he mentioned a "spending freeze," something I view as anti-productivity. Thank goodness the feds announced a 5.8% hike in social security for a cost of living raise this morning. With a McCain spending freeze, that would never happen and seniors on their limited incomes would have to somehow bear the brunt of a troubled economy. Of course, some people who have theirs couldn't care less.

I'm glad Obama didn't take the bait on Palin. And thank you for saying what you did about Palin, hogan77. She is no role model for all women. McCain did nothing but insult those of us who have gone before, those of us who burned our bras and screamed in the streets for equality. It is Sarah Palin who owes women like me, women who marched to "I am strong, I am invincible, I am woman..." and cleared the way for her and others like her to reach the higher offices and the higher positions in this country.

And Joe the Plumber can still buy that business if he is willing to work harder, be more creative, offer more services, work with volume, and quit thinking that he'll never make it if he has to pay higher taxes. In view of people in this country who are really and truly struggling, the likes of a Joe the Plumber getting 60 bucks an hour and worrying about taxes somehow pales!

October 16, 2008 at 8:57 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

momus (anonymous) says...

As far as the "I don't want to pay for other people's healthcare" comments are concerned... You are paying for their healthcare right now. Every time the uninsured (or their uninsured children) put off simple treatment and go to the emergency room and can't pay, we pay for that as taxpayers (and through premiums). Every time a family overwhelmed by medical bills (insured or not) declares bankruptcy, we as tax payers foot the bill. Healthcare that focuses on preventive care and insures more people actually saves the taxpayers money in the long run, prevents medical related bankruptcy and helps create a more productive nation. This is one problem that the free market alone cannot fix, but if government doesn't find a way to intervene and help fix one of the most expensive and least efficient health care systems in the industrialized world, my tax dollars and your tax dollars (as well as our inflated premiums) will continue to support the uninsured at a higher dollar amount in the status quo.

October 16, 2008 at 9:01 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

open_eyes (anonymous) says...

If you want to find out who's healthcare you're paying for, do some research on how much healthcare for illegal immigrants is costing us.

October 16, 2008 at 9:46 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

open_eyes (anonymous) says...

Hey Create, is this the "anarchy and rioting" you were afraid of in your other post?

From http://www.yuricareport.com/Strategie...

* Court Orders MoveOn.org To Cease Voter Intimidation And Harassment In Ohio

On Election Day, individuals in Franklin County, Ohio, were threatened and harassed at their polling places by agents of MoveOn.org after being asked about their voting preference and revealing their intention to vote Republican. Similar situations are alleged to have occurred elsewhere around the state and prompted a lawsuit filed in the Franklin County Common Pleas Court.....
* Ohio Court Ordered Democrat Polling Place Challengers To Remove Deceptive Arm Bands and Badges.....
* Violence Against Republican Volunteers In Philadelphia On Election Day...
One Republican activist, working as a Bush campaign legal volunteer to monitor the vote in Philadelphia, was “cornered in a parking lot by roughly 10 large men....” The men tried to tip over the minivan the Republican attorneys were sharing, “punching it relentlessly, breaking parts off and failing to drag us out, they chased us in and out of the dense urban traffic.” It took “a frantic 911 call and a police roadblock” to stop the assault, and the GOP volunteers “had to be secreted out of town to safety by a police escort.” (89) (Exhibit M)

* Union-Coordinated Violence And Intimidation Against Republican Campaign Offices And Volunteers

On October 5, a Bush-Cheney campaign volunteer in Orlando had his arm broken when trying to stop union activists from storming the campaign office. This incident was part of a series of simultaneous demonstrations coordinated by the AFL-CIO against Bush-Cheney campaign offices in 20 cities, intimidating campaign volunteers with violence and vandalism. In Orlando, AFL-CIO members stormed and ransacked the Bush-Cheney field office as part of what one local newscaster called a “coordinated attack against the Bush-Cheney campaign.” Protesters also defaced posters of President Bush and dumped piles of letters on to the floor of the office. Several protesters in Orlando faced possible assault charges as a result of the incident. (92)

continued....

October 16, 2008 at 10:04 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

open_eyes (anonymous) says...

continued....

* Violence And Other Incidents of Intimidation

In 2004, at least three Bush-Cheney offices were shot at during the election season. A swastika was burned into the front yard of a Bush-Cheney supporter in Madison, Wisconsin. Other incidents included offices burglarized, windows smashed, tires slashed and other property damage. The following is a timeline of documented election-related violence and intimidation against the Bush-Cheney ‘04 campaign and Republicans in 2004......

While the Kerry-Edwards campaign and state Democrats denied knowledge of the plan to vandalize the Republican get-out-the-vote vehicles, the vehicle used by the defendants was rented by (DNC consultant Opel)Simmons, a political consultant from Virginia working for the DNC in Wisconsin. According to the criminal complaint filed in the case, Simmons told police that he had rented the vehicle “to be used by his workers for their campaign activities.” When questioned by police on the night of November 2, Simmons said he knew that five of his workers were involved in slashing tires at Republican headquarters early that morning, and identified all five defendants to police. (67)

* Court Issues Injunction Against Democrat Operatives Targeting Ohio Voters With Phone Calls Providing Deceptive Information to Voters

Ohio voters who had identified themselves as Republicans received telephone calls telling them that the election was to be held a day later than Election Day, that their polling locations had been changed and that they could only vote if they brought four separate pieces of identification to the poll. This information was intentionally deceptive and intended to direct voters to a polling place where they would not be able to cast a ballot.

In addition to these incidents, the report documents better that 30 other news reports of violence, intimidation, suppression and fraud by Democrats that they were able to independently verify.

Now, what was it you were saying about your fear of "anarchy and rioting" if Obama wins..........???????

October 16, 2008 at 10:07 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

create (anonymous) says...

The kind of fear and anarchy I meant was the kind that takes place after ball games when people set fire to cars, beat up people who are wearing the wrong colors, that sort of thing. After a political win, the riots may be larger, but not likely anything comparable to Watts.

You picked up some good research, open_eyes. Also, you'll always find stuff like that when uncovering labor unions and their muscle, that's for sure. No matter what the situation, those folks are pretty tough. Haven't you ever been up close and personal when the Teamsters go on strike at the bakery?

I don't have time to uncover anything on the other side, but I'm guessing there is plenty. Of course, how can we forget Florida and the hanging chads debacle? At least the legislation that came out of that was smart and should cover it. All states are now required to check voter registrations against vehicle registrations for legitimacy. Of course, that begs the question. How many voters do not own cars, especially in cities where they depend on public transportation? Now Ohio has been charged to make those comparisons BY FRIDAY. Ouch.

In the meantime, let's take a break. Look what I found on the Christian Science Monitor this morning. People have shared some amazing photographs of the Autumn colors in several parts of the country. You might even find a neat one to use as wall paper. Take a few minutes to breathe...

http://features.csmonitor.com/fallfol...

October 16, 2008 at 10:49 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

hogan77 (anonymous) says...

Hey Deepthoughts: For your information, I DO have health insurance through my husband's employer, he works for our county. So it is excellent health insurance at that. I just don't want McCain's stupid $5,000 credit to screw all that up! My husband and I work hard for all the things we have, we learned to survive on $30,000 a year. But if McCain's credit ends up taking away the insurance we have, we sure as hell can't afford to buy a $12,000+ family policy to cover my husband, myself and our daughter.

You don't know me or my family. Your first instinct was to assume we are on welfare. Well, you are way wrong my friend. We are a hard working family, trying to make the best of life with what we are dealt. For the past 5 years, we have had excellent health coverage, a wonderful school that just switched to charter school last year (they have excellent test scores, and are among some of the highest in Kansas), we have food in our home, our bills are paid, and we are almost free and clear on our home... just another $7,000 left and it is ours in the clear. However, the fact remains that we only make $30,000 a year, between my husband's job as a county sheriff dispatcher and my 10 hr a week max job as our church secretary. We still fall in the low end of middle income to the high end of lower income. And sorry.... I'm not about to let some wrinkled up old man and his idiot running mate take away the things we have. That's my OPINION, which last I knew, I was entitled to. But, put Palin and McCain in office, I won't have the right to think what I want, or even wipe my own nose!

October 16, 2008 at 1:49 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Deepthoughts (anonymous) says...

So what exactly are the ethics of some lazy person who is happy on welfare and letting someone else pay for them when they are very capable of finding a job, but choose not to? Nice try bringing Christianity into it. I kinda remember something about idle hands (meaning lazy people) and the evil that can come with that idle time.

I have no problem trying to help people that want to help themselves. The kind of people who would rather work three jobs than ask the government to step in and pay for them. But I will never feel sorry for all the people out there throwing pity parties for themselves when they are perfectly capable of changing their circumstances on their own! Work ethic is pathetic anymore. Now people think they are owed something.

October 16, 2008 at 1:53 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Deepthoughts (anonymous) says...

Hogan,
I apologize for assuming when you said you wanted future healthcare that you supported Obama's socialistic health care plan. I applaud you and your family for your hard work ethic. Slightly shocked anyone with a church tie would ever consider voting for Obama, but as you said - you are entitled to your opinion as I am to mine.

October 16, 2008 at 1:58 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

hogan77 (anonymous) says...

Now what exactly is that supposed to mean.... "Slightly shocked anyone with a church tie would ever consider voting for Obama"?? He is a CHRISTIAN. He is not the Muslim that so many people think he is... if THAT is what you are referring to.

He is also a family man, one that understands how families struggle. He is looking out for MY best interest. Possibly not yours, but in my eyes, I feel he is going to do all he can for ME and MY family.

October 16, 2008 at 2:08 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

notasheeple (anonymous) says...

Everyone loses! And I am prepared! WAKE UP!!!

October 16, 2008 at 2:33 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

open_eyes (anonymous) says...

In the same vein, Palin is a very SMART woman, not an idiot. Just because you disagree with someone does not automatically make you Einstein and them an idiot.

I'm curious about your statement about "put Palin and McCain in office, I won't have the right to think what I want, or even wipe my own nose!".

A little FYI for you, since you seem to be confused about each party's platform. Republicans are generally for less government and regulations. Meaning more freedom. Democrats are generally for larger government, more regulation and laws.

Meaning, between the 2 of them, that is a statement that would be more accurately applied to Democratic party principles, in general.

Unless you can give me some specifics about the legislation McCain/Palin are pushing for to make wiping one's nose without government assistance illegal.

And.... McCain and Palin DON'T have families? When did that happen? Quick, Sarah, call Child Services, they've all been abducted! LOL. Seems to me there was an editorial here recently where the writer was saying we should NOT vote for someone "Just Like Us". Now, you're saying we should. I"m confused.

October 16, 2008 at 2:54 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

truelovecharlie (anonymous) says...

I would say no Bible believing God-fearing CHRISTION would vote for ANY Pro-Choice candidate. As far as I'm concerned; it doesn't matter what else he stands for or against. If he is for killing babies; he places no true value on a human life. LIFE BEGINS AT CONCEPTION!!!!

October 16, 2008 at 2:54 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Deepthoughts (anonymous) says...

thanks true - that was part of my reasoning among other things. I thought it would have been obvious. Never once did I say anything about him being a muslim. What is that commandment again, something about 'thou shalt not kill'. I'm not trying to get into a pro-life/pro-choice debate here - but I was just a little surprised by that.

October 16, 2008 at 3:12 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

open_eyes (anonymous) says...

Michelle & Barack went to Princeton & Harvard - not exactly cheap colleges. Palin entered a beauty contest attempting to win a scholarship to pay for tuition. Her and her husband ran their own fishing business. Both families are doing quite well now. So...... who's family are we comparing to who's here? I'm so easily confused.....

October 16, 2008 at 3:14 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

hogan77 (anonymous) says...

If you would have read my first post everyone, you would have read that I DO NOT believe that abortion is right. However, it is not my place, your place or the president's place to tell a woman what she HAS to do when faced with a difficult decision. That should be left up to her and GOD, not her and the government.

Obama said last night, and I quote: "I think that abortion is a very difficult issue and it is a moral issue and one that I think good people on both sides can disagree on. But ultimately what I believe is that women in consultation with their families, their doctors, their religious advisers, are in the best position to make this decision."

Much as me, the most infertile woman in the world, hates the thought of killing babies when they could be given to people like myself, I am not in the position to tell a woman what she HAS to do. And I completely agree with Barack Obama on this. It should be left up to the woman, her family, her doctors, and if she so believes, her pastor, minister, reverend, etc.

Let's just say we agree to disagree on this subject. As I said before, I am allowed to think what I want, say what I want, and do what I want (within the limits of the law). The only reason I responded back in the first place on ANY of this was because SOMEONE was taking aim at me, assuming that I was a low life on welfare. Well, sorry, I'm not. I am a hard working individual, who has a strong will to say what she feels.

October 16, 2008 at 4:15 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

hogan77 (anonymous) says...

I never said I was Einstein... I was referring to Palin as an idiot because she can't even recall what newspapers she reads, her response to that question was "All of them". Well sorry there skippy, what newspapers were they again? I would like to know where I can pick up a copy of that one, the one you call All of Them. Good grief. I can name every single one I read, along with the magazines I read. I can also name off the ones my husband reads, as well as my child. And she couldn't even name ONE? Sorry, someone with that level of simple ignorance is NOT someone I want to be my "role model".

October 16, 2008 at 4:20 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

goodoleboy (anonymous) says...

See though this is where things differ, you don't get to push your religion or views on people and make our choices based on it, little thing called separation of church and state from the constitution, remember that? Anyone that believes in cases of rape and incest that women should be forced into a pregnancy has a warped mind, the studies done on the children and mothers in these situations mandates a choice for these victims.

And if your into 'thou shalt not kill" then you should be screaming for an end to the war in Iraq.

October 16, 2008 at 4:27 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

goodoleboy (anonymous) says...

Anyone who believes that man walked with dinosaurs a few thousand years has a screw loose in my book, logic and reason have to take hold at some point. Another funny factoid about Palin many people are not aware of, while she continues on her tirade of Obama and his past perhaps she should lump her husband into that group of people that are radical anti Americans, for not too long ago he was a part of a group that wanted to see Alaska secede from the US, how very patriotic and a testament to her hypocrisy.

October 16, 2008 at 4:33 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

UsayULoveGod (anonymous) says...

what's crazy is that we can give the Banks 700 billion to help them out , but we cannot give money to help out our Health care and School system out . It really doesn't matter who wins , because they are only one person , sorry 2 with the Vice. Until We Stand up and Say No more to High gas prices , No more to sending our jobs overseas , No more getting into wars until we can clean our own streets up and Yes to stopping the overflow of drugs in every community in the USA , I could go on and on and on , But we are tired of the same old lies and broken promises !!!!!!!!!!

October 16, 2008 at 5:26 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

open_eyes (anonymous) says...

Well.... "skippy"........ yes, Palin made a gaffe, drew a blank, had a deer-in-the-headlights moment, just like we all do (except for your Messiah, of course - but he can't remember that he used to train ACORN).
Biden got the wrong president on TV when talking about the onset of the depression, let alone the fact that television hadn't even been invented yet at that time. And he also asked the wheelchair-bound Missouri politician Chuck Graham to "stand up" at a rally, Gee, I know Hoover, not FDR, was pres when the Crash happened, and I know public televsion broadcasting hadn't come along yet, and I certainly would not ask a person in a wheelchair to stand up. So, I guess in all fairness you should also be referring to Biden as "that idiot" as well? Or, like any human being, (except you, apparently) - are they just as capable of slips, gaffs, goofs, and errors as any of us? Sure, we want our leaders to be perfect, I certainly don't want Biden mistaking "THE" red button for an M&M someday and starting WWIII, but, to be reasonable, every politician is just as human as the rest of us. Capable of snorting milk thru their nose, and forgetting where they left their car keys. If you can't stand Palin because of her policies, fine, but if that's what really bothers you, then you remind me of Cathy's editorial recently. You seem to base everything on who says "you betcha", and draws a blank on a silly question. Did Cathy have you in mind when she wrote the article?

October 16, 2008 at 6:40 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

hogan77 (anonymous) says...

Possibly so open_eyes. Cause all I am is an ignorant woman, right? I don't care about what happens to my family, I just need to sit idly by and let someone else run my life for me. Yup, that's me, good ole little 1950's mother, without a say in any matter in my family, or my life.

October 16, 2008 at 7:34 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

open_eyes (anonymous) says...

No, I'm just pointing out that everyone is human. No more, no less. And that is is hypocritical to raise a stink about silly gaffes on one side, but overlook the same type of things on the other.

From Katie Couric's interview with Sarah Palin:

Q: Do you think there's an inherent right to privacy in the Constitution?
A: I do. Yeah, I do.

Q: The cornerstone of Roe v. Wade.

A: I do. And I believe that individual states can best handle what the people within the different constituencies in the 50 states would like to see their will ushered in an issue like that.

Q: Why is Roe v. Wade a bad decision?

A: I think it should be a states' issue not a federal government-mandated, mandating yes or no on such an important issue. I'm, in that sense, a federalist, where I believe that states should have more say in the laws of their lands and individual areas. Now, foundationally, it's no secret that I'm pro-life that I believe in a culture of life is very important for this country. Personally that's what I would like to see further embraced by America.

So, if you read into that that means you're just a good ole little 1950's mother, without a say in any matter in your family or your life, you saw alot more than I did, regardless of her Personal views.

Question: How many states do you think would automatically overturn Roe vs. Wade, if that were the choice?

Never mind that for her to even get that far they would have to appoint several extremely conservative Supreme Court judges, and also get them approved by a majority Democrat House and Senate.

What exactly do you think the chances of that happening are? Could you give me a % number? Or is she just going to "run into office, with both guns swinging"? Seriously? Think she might pull an Ayers-type move and try to bomb the Supreme Court to get that done? And then bomb every state legislature and court?

I don't think you're an ignorant woman. I just think you need to stop to take a deep breath and think a little deeper about things once in awhile.

October 16, 2008 at 7:52 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

goodoleboy (anonymous) says...

Palin is an idiot, why is it she has not had a press conference? It's because she cannot do anything other read a teleprompter. Governor of one the smallest states in the union for approx 2 years, mayor of nowhere, passport 5 years ago? This woman could be president? Are you serious?

And open eyes before you start another one of your cut and paste deflection spiels humor me and lets focus on her and her alone for once and just why she is not fit to be president.

October 16, 2008 at 9:15 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

open_eyes (anonymous) says...

Well first of all, by area, Alaska is easily our largest state, over twice as big as the next closest, and only slightly behind Delaware (Biden's state - the next to the smallest state in area) in population (Yet Biden has asked for close to double the earmarks for 2009 for Delaware that Palin has asked for Alaska.
As to why she hasn't held a press conference, I agree with you on that one, I think she should, be all means.
I think she is fit to be President, you do not. We disagree. Difference is, I'm not constantly calling someone who's probably alot smarter than either of us an idiot.
She has an 80% approval rating in her state - why do you think that is? Is it because she says "you betcha" with all the locals? Could it be because the people in her state overwhelmingly approve of the job she has done so far? I watched a short interview of a previous political opponent of hers - he said something along the lines of he was skeptical at first, but he's been very impressed with the job she has done since taking office. Look up anywhere how she took on big oil - and won. Fought corruption in her own party - and won. I contantly hear people, especially Democrats, harp about Big Oil - exactly what has Obama done in that respect? Come to think of it, exactly what has Obama actually done?

I pretty much answer just about everything pretty straightforward, and with facts to back it up. Or I ask rhetorical questions to get people to think and examine things, and look at it from both angles. You think of them as cut-and-paste deflection spiels - so, apparently, you don't believe in facts (I've noticed that pattern alot among very liberal people), only emotions. Because I research things, and search for the truth, as far as I can determine it and my understanding of it, and back it up, you call that "deflections". But, all I hear in response is....... well, basically a bunch of name-yelling. Certainly my questions never get answered. Hmmm.... Cathy was onto something in her editorial, I think she was just looking 180 degrees in the wrong direction.

This evening they were reporting widespread cases of entire neighborhoods in Kansas City having all their McCain/Palin signs either removed, or with swastikas spraypainted on them. Since create & I forget who else complained about their signs being removed, I'd like to hear what they think of this. Please, no "just teenagers", or "unions will be unions" deflection - just your honest opinion.

October 16, 2008 at 10:01 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

open_eyes (anonymous) says...

I'm curious - exactly what constitutes a "cut and paste deflection"? If you ask me who was President in 1929, and I answer it and post a link proving it, that's a cut and past deflection, apparently. If I read someone hollering about how only Republicans do so-and-so or are solely responsible for such-and-such evil doings, and I post some instances, with links to it, showing the same going on from the other side, apparently that is a cut and paste deflection.

Well, I take the other side of the fence here and play devil's advocate, and post a statement that I truly believe with all my heart, based on emotion alone.

The moon is made of cheese.

Please, no cut-and paste deflections, humor me and let's just focus on cheese, and cheese alone, and what kind of cheese it is. - LOL :)

October 16, 2008 at 10:22 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

socialmancan (anonymous) says...

Well, the moon is white; so, i'm going to have to say that it is made of Swiss cheese! LOL

October 16, 2008 at 11 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

goodoleboy (anonymous) says...

First off, your smarter than this, Alaska is one of our smallest states by population, geography is irrelevant so just stop now and don't insult me. 80% approval rating in a state that has a population that is next to nothing means nothing to me.

Cut and paste deflections, you want to provide a link that is fine, but when you cut and past several times because you cannot fit it one post it makes you condescending and frankly insults our intelligence, most of us can read and are internet saavy, we do not need whole articles quoted to us with you stepping us through it.

I can guarantee you my intelligence is at a higher level than Palin's. I hold degrees in mathematics and computer science so I can say yes, I am smarter than her, I know what newspapers I read and I can speak without getting an OK from someone. She is an idiot regardless of her affiliation. She abused her power, her husband is a big part of her decisions and wanted to secede from the US, and she is a religious zealot that thinks humans walked with dinosaurs and wants to tell victims of rape and incest THAT IF IT WAS HER CHOICE they would have that child.

I rest my case, your first few sentences were about Biden, not Palin, I can respect people that play Devils advocate but seriously its getting old, you have no defense for her other than start pointing at the other side. You would make a darn good politician.

PS The moon is not made of cheese, science proves this, stop being ridiculous.

October 16, 2008 at 11:19 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

nmse_s (Shannon Standard) says...

I'm sorry that I can't remember who wrote above that Mr. Obama is a Christian. But to the individual who said this, please remember that Christian means to be Christ-like. Last time I read the bible, abortion is wrong. Someone who calls themselves a Christian should not believe in abortion. While I don't know if Mr. Obama has called himself a Christian the individual who stated that he is a Christian needs to think about that statement and what the consequences it can bring.

Now, as far as who won the debate, I hope you make this decision and the decision on who you are voting for by your own viewing/research. Be very careful on what you watch and pay attention to. The major media outlets have clearly come out in favor of Barak Obama. The one media outlet and one news media personality from a different channel try to put a fair, non-biased approach to the election process. My advice is this...watch them all, read all newspapers, look at all angles to get the information you need to make in informed decision. Compare everything and if you are hard core, view their voting records, find their flip-flops and how many times the candidates have done so. Get over what others have said that John McCain is said to be another George Bush and forget the fact the Barak Obama is a fine speaker, who can keep his cool under fire because he's still green behind the ears when it comes to politics. (Give hime a couple more years and he too will loose his "wooing" tactics when it comes to speaking).

October 16, 2008 at 11:36 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

open_eyes (anonymous) says...

Excellent points, nmse_e.

I also STRONGLY URGE anyone who did not watch both candidates speak tonight at the Alfred Smith Memorial dinner to PLEASE do so, watch a tape of it, find it on the internet, whatever it takes. It is always a comedy routine, and both candidate were drop-dead funny. They had each other, and Senator Clinton, rolling in the aisles, and me laughing myself to tears. They poked fun at themselves, at each other in a very good-humored way,(both were EXTREMELY funny and witty) - and they both took time to be serious, gracious, and magnanimous to each other. Again, I HIGHLY RECOMMEND anyone here that did not get to watch it to catch both candidates short speeches. If the debates bored you, this certainly won't. I think it brought out the best in both candidates. And, left me slightly sad, wishing, if only the entire campaign (not just this one, ALL campaigns in this country) - could only be this way during their course.........sigh.........

October 16, 2008 at 11:56 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

goodoleboy (anonymous) says...

So we have to have Christian in the White House? Last time I looked our very constitution said something about separation of church and state. Religious beliefs do not trump personal choice, get used to that.

"The major media outlets have clearly come out in favor of Barak Obama. The one media outlet and one news media personality from a different channel try to put a fair, non-biased approach to the election process."

HAHAHAHAHAHHAHA

Please do defend this quote, frankly it's insulting.

PS

Open eyes,
the banter at the fundraiser was great, but I will say this again, McCain and Palin's smear BS lost any chances he had at this election. He slit his own throat,

October 17, 2008 at 2:22 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

truelovecharlie (anonymous) says...

I am so tired of hearing about the seperation of Church and State! We are ONE NATION UNDER GOD! We are created BY GOD; in GOD'S image. The farther we get away from GOD, the worse this world gets. We condone abortion, we condone homosexuality, we condone adultery... Do we really have to wonder why this world is in the shape it's in? Unless we turn back to GOD, things will continue it's downward slide. What if it were YOUR mother that choice abortion, when she was pregnant with you? As I said previously; no true Christion could possibly vote for a pro-choice candidate.

October 17, 2008 at 6:39 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

momus (anonymous) says...

If we are truly supposed to be a pro-life nation, what about war? We know there will be collateral damage (innocent civilians) in any conflict. Would the Christian mind set be to dismantle our military to protect life? What about the death penalty? We just had the Supreme Court refuse to hear a case where witnesses recanted on testimony that sent someone to death row. Should we stop using the death penalty, as some Christian groups have advocated? If we keep our military, should our Christian values compel us to involve ourselves in areas of little strategic importance to prevent genocide? Since the Bible states that it is easier for a camel to walk through the eye of a needle that for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven, should we have a tax system that makes sure wealth is distributed? Should we take care of the poor, sick and hungry in our own nation without complaint that "lazy people are using my hard earned money", or "I'm not paying for someone else’s healthcare"? The same Book that demonizes homosexuality also calls shell fish an abomination. Should we as a nation ban certain seafood?

If people want to practice their religion, that is great. But when we, as a nation, start using our religion to dictate how others live, we deny ourselves religious freedom. If you disagree with homosexuality, pray for them. Love them. Be kind to them. But, I doubt anyone will change their orientation based on what's legal. Isn't “thou shall not judge” one of the basic tenants of Christianity? We have to meet our maker as individuals, not with a panel of our peers letting God know if we were good people or not.

October 17, 2008 at 8:14 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

create (anonymous) says...

Sarah Palin should not become vice president for a list of reasons. For one, even though she was pronounced by Alaska's legislature to be guilty of abusing power only a few days ago, she still denied it and even announced that she was thankful that they had found her innocent. Maybe if she did read at least a couple of publications she may have learned the real news.

According to a group in Alaska who are not part of Sarah's fan base, she is opposed to abortion even in the case of incest or rape; she offered a bounty of $150 for each front leg of freshly killed wolves; she strongly supports big oil and drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge; she promotes aerial hunting of wolves and bears even though Alaskans voted TWICE to ban the practice; she supports the Alaskan Independence Party which seeks independence from the United States; she believes creationism should be taught in public schools; she believes global warming is a farce; she is opposed to listing the polar bear as an endangered species (yeah, it might limit Arctic oil exploration); she tried to get the librarian in Wasilla to censor certain books; she used $400,000 of state money to fund a propaganda campaign in support of aerial hunting; when she was mayor of Wasilla, she made rape victims pay for their own forensic evidence kits (so much for empowering women); she obtained her passport just last year in 2007.

I have difficulty believing that Sarah Palin would make a good vice president let alone a possible president. In Sarah's belief system, nothing changes, nothing moves forward, nothing evolves. Sarah's belief system says that the Iraqi war was "a task from God." Yet Americans get upset when muslim terrorists say Allah is telling them to destroy America. What's the diff? I don't want Sarah Palin's beliefs being uttered on my behalf as an American.

The United States has one of the most diverse populations in the world. How can someone like Sarah Palin be second in charge of that?

"But when God and Guns come together in the public sector,
when war is declared in God's name, when the rights of women are
denied in his name, that is the end of separation of church and state and
the undoing of everything America has ever tried to be."

October 17, 2008 at 8:19 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

open_eyes (anonymous) says...

Obama quoted scripture during his speech at the fundraiser, so there's another candidate eliminated from the race - LOL

Actually, try to defend your quote that the major media outlets are NOT biased. And defend it with some facts. Like, for instance, some cut and paste deflections. Several non-partisan studies have been done Now, this isn't NEWS, but comedy, but they just posted a study of late-night talkshow hosts - jokes, insults, and negative comments about McCain/Palin are 7 to 1 higher ratio compared to jokes about the Dems. Why? Aren't Dems a humorous? Something like 287 to 42 over the polling period.

October 17, 2008 at 9:01 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

OutsiderJ (anonymous) says...

God is dead. Hate to break to everybody.
I live a clean moral life. I help my community and neighbors. I am not a criminal or bad person. I have acheived this moral and normal life entirely without any assistance from a mythical being who can see and know everything.

I think that we should keep religion as far out of politics as we possibly can. Because I don't believe in god does not make me anti religious. I respect people that can attain that level of faith, even if I think it is misplaced. However, it is possible and even desirable to have someone lead out nation whose judgement is based in reason and reality, not an antique book of allegories and myths.

October 17, 2008 at 9:13 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

create (anonymous) says...

Good post, Outsider.

Something to think about if you think dare...

http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/main.htm

October 17, 2008 at 10:58 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

truelovecharlie (anonymous) says...

May God have mercy on those that think He is Dead and that the Bible is an antiquidated book of allegories and myths. Just look at all the prophesies that were written long ago and coming to pass each and every day. God is very much alive and very patient and loving and kind. We are bringing about the end times and our own destruction and living out all the prophesies of long ago, today. My hope and prayer is that all will realize the truth as the truth shall set you free.

October 17, 2008 at 11:16 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

hogan77 (anonymous) says...

Thank you momus. You hit the nail on the head... in words I could not find because I have been too upset (I don't particularly care for people calling me a non Christian because I believe differently than they do.)

October 17, 2008 at 11:23 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

OutsiderJ (anonymous) says...

Some interesting things to ponder for sure, create.

To give a better understanding and so that my christian friends and neighbors won't feel too bad for my soul here is about the best definition of someone who does not believe in god. It was entered before the Supreme Court and says it way better than I ever could.

The following definition of Atheism was given to the Supreme Court of the United States in the case of Murray v. Curlett, 374 U.S. 203, 83 S. Ct. 1560, 10 L.Ed.2d (MD, 1963), to remove reverential Bible reading and oral unison recitation of the Lord's Prayer in the public schools.

“Your petitioners are Atheists and they define their beliefs as follows. An Atheist loves his fellow man instead of god. An Atheist believes that heaven is something for which we should work now – here on earth for all men together to enjoy.

An Atheist believes that he can get no help through prayer but that he must find in himself the inner conviction, and strength to meet life, to grapple with it, to subdue it and enjoy it.

An Atheist believes that only in a knowledge of himself and a knowledge of his fellow man can he find the understanding that will help to a life of fulfillment.

He seeks to know himself and his fellow man rather than to know a god. An Atheist believes that a hospital should be built instead of a church. An Atheist believes that a deed must be done instead of a prayer said. An Atheist strives for involvement in life and not escape into death. He wants disease conquered, poverty vanquished, war eliminated. He wants man to understand and love man.

He wants an ethical way of life. He believes that we cannot rely on a god or channel action into prayer nor hope for an end of troubles in a hereafter.

He believes that we are our brother's keepers; and are keepers of our own lives; that we are responsible persons and the job is here and the time is now.”

I would love to be wrong and be convinced that there is this all knowing/loving being that has this great plan for me, etc. etc. etc., but I suspect that I am not wrong. Especially considering I am tough to convince of some things that are certainly know to exist. The proof for the existence of god would have to be overwhelming.

I am not saying we should not elect christians or anything like that. I am saying that their religious beliefs should have little bearing on what they are doing in response to the issues America faces. Should the government really be involved in deciding who can marry who, or how someone chooses to handle reproductive issues such as abortion, adoption, and contraception. These things are such individual choices and should be between the person making them and their version of god/religion, not between them and the government's leaders version of god and what their religion preaches is right.

October 17, 2008 at 11:48 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

open_eyes (anonymous) says...

I have to honestly say I agree with some points from both sides that have been presented here regarding religion and God.

My personal beliefs are that this did not all come about "by accident" - that there is something greater than us. However, that does not mean that I believe the earth was created a little over 4,000 years ago, or that a boa constrictor talked Eve into eating an apple. I think much of that is symbolic stories and legends. Most legends have some grain of truth in them - this may have as well (as an example) - but that does not, and is not, central to my faith or spirituality whether or not we pin down whether the Universe was created 4,000 or 14 billion years ago.

I just have a few points for pondering - Not saying I am right or wrong, just thoughts I reflect on from time to time in my own personal belief system:

OutsiderJ, many of your statements about an Atheists' belief: Just to grab a few at random...."An Atheist believes that a hospital should be built instead of a church. An Atheist believes that a deed must be done instead of a prayer said. An Atheist strives for involvement in life and not escape into death. He wants disease conquered, poverty vanquished, war eliminated. He wants man to understand and love man. He wants an ethical way of life. "

These all also apply to Christianity, as it is meant to be. Much like the radical left and right-wing loonies who ruin many people's perception of ALL on the "other side of the aisle", too often the strict constructionist destroys other peoples views of what Christianity is really supposed to be all about. Jesus HIMSELF even preached against the Pharisee and their strict interpretations and laws. He SAID faith without works is dead. Basically many of the same things you have said above.

I do not doubt for a second that you, and many other Atheists, are very ethical and good people. I also know there are many Atheists in our prisons and on death row. Does that make all Atheists criminals? Then maybe it isn't fair to stereotype all people of faith based on what some in a religion do.

continued.....

October 17, 2008 at 12:08 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

open_eyes (anonymous) says...

I agree on separation of church and state. But I think sometimes things get twisted out of context of whether a person uses his own beliefs to guide and shape his moral and ethical system when it comes to politics.

I'm not saying there can't be ethics and morals among Atheists, and outside of religion. What I do NOT trust, is Man setting himself up as the sole decider of what is morally correct and ethical. Who gets to decide what is right and what is wrong? We are a democracy - if, someday in the future, our morals change, and we decide (as a democratic majority) that parents have the right to kill their children if they are unsatisfied with them up till the age of, say, 16 - does that make it correct? (Hypothetical question - but one that is a correct assumption of being a morally correct deed, based on your perception of man being the sole decider of ethics and morality). You may laugh, and say that will never happen. But human history is full of laws that were far from correct. Slavery, for one. It was the law - nobody who owned a slave broke any law of man at one time. Yes, I would hope that as society evolves, we would move towards a more ethically correct society - but I would argue that in many parts of the world, including here, we are moving in the opposite direction in many of our laws and ethics. So, for me, I don't rely on mankind as the sole standard for ethics and morality. And, undoubtedly, there are those out there who follow a corrupt religion, and or have twisted it far from its origins (gee, can anyone guess which I'm specifically referring to?). But, in the end, it all comes down to the 2 basics that Jesus said was really all we needed to do. 1) Love God, and 2) Love each other as yourself. That should, if followed correctly, take care of all else, including covering that which you listed above as the Athiest's creed/definition.

And finally, (I know this thread has gotten along ways from the Presidential debate) - I offer St. Thomas of Aquinas and his 5 philosophical Proofs for the Existence of God. Pretty much a required study in any philosophy class (it was in mine) - (well, back in my day, I doubt liberal professors nowadays would dare teach this). I'll let you look it up and research it on your own.

Peace and goodwill to all - including those on the left, right, those that call Palin an idiot, Bush a Nazi, and Obama a Muslim terrorist. Disagree if you must, but when you start pointing out faults, be sure to look not only at your own party in the same light, but also at the mote in your own eye first.

October 17, 2008 at 12:27 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

open_eyes (anonymous) says...

OutsiderJ, when you say that the government should not be involved in deciding how someone chooses to handle issues like abortion, it sounds like you agree with Palin, in a way. She believes it should not be a federal mandate, but let each state decide for themselves. Which is not complete absence of government, but one that is on a closer level to each demographic and what the people there choose for themselves. Sure you're not a Repub? LOL

October 17, 2008 at 12:32 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

OutsiderJ (anonymous) says...

Not a republican, but nobody's perfect, right? hahaha.

openeyes--
" Then maybe it isn't fair to stereotype all people of faith based on what some in a religion do."

I hope that is not what you think I was doing. I was merely trying to point out that it is possible to care about your society and neighbors and well being without the presence of god or religion. I know that not everyone is like me, but I don't think I am alone either.
I enjoyed your post very much and appreciated an intelligent and thought out argument. Especially the St. Thomas reference. They still teach it, at least they did in 2000. I enjoy theology and beliefs and their origins and all of the history and differences that go with them, but I can't devote any faith to it in the form of religion.
As far as elected officials are concerned, I think the focus should be the human factor, or doing what is right for the people regardless of god may look upon it.

October 17, 2008 at 1:46 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

open_eyes (anonymous) says...

Point taken, OutsiderJ - and thank you for clarifying. Sometimes we get started debating and then have to stop and look back to see that there were points we were agreeing on all along.... :)
I don't think you are alone - as I pointed out (in agreement with you) there are good and bad people in every segment of humanity. Regardless of race, religion, gender, or political belief.

Interesting news just out:

Hawaii is dropping the only state universal child health care program in the country just seven months after it launched.

Gov. Linda Lingle's administration cited budget shortfalls and other available health care options for eliminating funding for the program. A state official said families were dropping private coverage so their children would be eligible for the subsidized plan.

Also, news was coming out late last night that at least some of the claims of "hate shouters" at McCain rallies may be unfounded (a ploy?). There ARE videos and soundbites where some hecklers can be heard, but there are some instances, they are finding, where the claim of certain things said was made by 1 person, and none of the people interviewed, nor the Secret Service agents throughout the crowd, nor any other law enforcement officers present, heard any such thing. I'll play advocate here and say I could believe people lying to cover someone up, but the SS is not party-specific, and if someone was doing that, they would be on them in a flash. The specific story about the person who yelled "Kill Him" in reference to Obama was printed in the Scranton-Times Tribune, and, so far, the reporter who made the claim appears to be the ONLY person who heard it. Nobody in the crowd, none of the law enforcement, none of the Secret Service, lots of people and officers interviewed, nobody. The Secret Service says they are "baffled" by the claim.
Seems to me hatred is being stoked, but, once again, by who? Are some "true colors" coming out?

October 17, 2008 at 2:03 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

create (anonymous) says...

Yes, in my noon bulletin from KHON TV in Honolulu, I got the news about Hawaii being forced to cancel their universal child care. A blow against children whose parents will likely not take them for the care they need.

Another blow to children took place in Dallas today as 375 teachers will be laid off. Now class size will be larger than ever -- so unfair to children who must try to learn in overcrowded classrooms. Unfair to teachers too who must now accomodate larger numbers and still be accountable according to NCLB. I wonder how many children are being left behind today in George Bush's home state.

October 17, 2008 at 2:28 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

open_eyes (anonymous) says...

But, one of the main reasons cited for dropping the program, was the families that COULD afford private coverage, and already had it, were dropping it to take advantage of the state's welfare. Another example of a program being abused by greed - yes, a blow against those who needed it, abused by the greed of those who don't. Beginning to be a common-sounding theme these days.....

October 17, 2008 at 2:34 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

open_eyes (anonymous) says...

On Glenn Beck's website he has a very detailed, factual, and in-depth analysis of the steps that got us into the current financial mess, and (correctly) spreads the blame quite fairly. He even correctly points out that during Bush's first 3 years in office, his policies aggressively pushed for home-ownership for those who could not afford it, (much like his predecessor) and praised Fannie & Freddie. When he finally started sounding the alarm, he did it much too faintly, and blame rests squarely on his shoulders for that. Again, I doubt any politician wanted to risk sure political suicide and nix the housing boom in the bud, but that's what he needed to do, and he did not. (Don't let the fact that Glenn is joining FoxNews scare anyone from reading his very insightful article). On his webpage, you can find it by clicking on the "Most Popular" tab, and down to the "What Happened" link, right below the Palin bikini pictures link (there are none - that's the point of the link :)

October 17, 2008 at 3:04 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

USNretired (anonymous) says...

The lefty loonies have big shovels today. I am so glad that I am neither stupid nor lazy. That way I can check facts and not make them up as I go along. If you are lacking something, work for it. the government doesn't create new and give it out, it takes from someone that earned it first.

October 17, 2008 at 8:51 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )