goodoleboy (anonymous) says...

I think both came off well, McCain's attempts at humor fell very flat and to me made him look somewhat disconnected. until more of the fact checking comes in I really do not think there was a clear cut winner, but this is McCain's format and I can not say I think he "owned" the debate at all. If anything I would say Obama exceeded my expectations since this supposed to be McCain's strong point, but I am certain given the reaction to the VP debate that most will say McCain won regardless.

October 7, 2008 at 10:43 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

open_eyes (anonymous) says...

I unfortunately missed about 3/4 of the debate, so I've been watching the post-debate shows. Fact-checking iafterwards is always my favorite part, however - here's a quick one:

http://apnews1.iwon.com/article/20081...

Some may mean more than others to each of us, to me, the ones that I focus the most on are points 2, 3, 4, and 6 from the above link, and especially number 2.

October 7, 2008 at 10:48 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Emporia_Spartan (anonymous) says...

I thought that Senator Obama appeared more poised and "Presidential." Senator McCain came across as angry at times, ruffled at times, and lacking in audience appeal much of the time. Both talked around the questions, taking too much time, rather than answering in a straight-forward manner. Both could use help in word precision! I think that the team of Obama and Biden will lead the country more responsibly, based on the 2 debates between the 4 candidates. I'm a little afraid of the future, to tell the truth....

October 8, 2008 at 12:11 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

kseyetie (anonymous) says...

Boring, it's over, Machine Gun John.

October 8, 2008 at 7:54 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Happiness08 (anonymous) says...

The only thing I found distasteful about the dabate was when McCain referred to Obama at one point as "that one". I don't much appreciate the comment above about Machine Gun John either. Are you aware that McCain was a POW for four years? Overall, I think the debate was a draw. Although, Obama did seem more composed. McCain just comes off as frail to me for some reason.

October 8, 2008 at 8:15 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

goodoleboy (anonymous) says...

Just watched it a second time, noticed that McCain would not shake his hand at the end, also noticed that when talking to an audience member on the Fannie and Freddie ordeal he it seemed to me like he treated the person like a child. After seeing it a second time I gathered that McCain seemed very condescending and combative, not poised and eloquent like he has been in the past. Polls are showing Obama won, and I would have to agree with people at this juncture. The comment about 'that one" will no doubt get blown out of proportion, and could be the nail in the coffin for McCain.

October 8, 2008 at 8:31 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

momus (anonymous) says...

Various polls out after the debate rate Obama as the winner. The most surprising thing to me about the debate is something that a poster stated above: how frail McCain looked. It looks like he's aged significantly from even the primaries. I think an after debate commentator had it right when he said that McCain needs to stay behind a podium. Obama seemed poised, calm and direct IMO. I can see why he was rated the winner of the debate. Now things will get nasty. Hell hath no fury like a GOP candidate behind in the polls.

October 8, 2008 at 8:47 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

goodoleboy (anonymous) says...

They really have nothing left to throw at Obama, McCain has taken as much money or more from Fannie and Freddy, the Ayers thing is not sticking due the fact he has not had contact with the guy in many years. They are beat, short of digging up an affair or scandal at the last minute this is Obama's race to lose, mudslinging will not help McCain at this point.

October 8, 2008 at 8:53 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

hogan77 (anonymous) says...

I admit, I am a bit of a dummy when it comes to politics. I have always said, I never trust a politician, they are all crooked.

I watched the debate last night, and seriously, the only thing I agreed with McCain about was when he said that health insurance is a responsibility. Obama said it is a right, however in the past 50+ years it never has been. We have all grown used to the fact we have to provide health insurance for ourselves and our families. I, like so many others, like the idea of having an extra $5,000. in my pocket when it comes tax refund time, but at the cost of possibly losing the health insurance we have, I think it is a high price to pay.

Let me not forget to mention, McCain has never looked the public in the eye when he speaks, he is always looking around, blinking, or staring at the host of the debates. Obama has at least looked at us, the public, when he has given his answers. So I have to say, I think with all the info given, as well as my own personal opinion of things, Obama may end up our new president.

October 8, 2008 at 10:23 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

create (anonymous) says...

The contempt McCain has for Obama was almost palpable, including his not shaking hands at the end. McCain also appeared shaken and fidgety.

Thankfully, there were no character attacks although the several sharp edges like blame exchanges both used was irritating and robbed the debate of substance.

I had a problem with McCain charging Obama with "liberal big spending" yet his plan to buy bad mortgages is certainly liberal and will cost tons more than the country can afford.

McCain's worst came with his condescending treatment of the young man who asked about Fannie and Freddie. He could have used the question as a teaching moment; instead, he used it to treat the young man like he was stupid. It is no different from his saying to Obama, "We don't have time for on the job training, my friend." The use of "my friend" becomes dismissive, as does "That one." It is low class and intentionally racist, designed to put a Black man in his place.

Overall, Obama was much more polished, both in rhetoric as well as appearance. Some would say that comes from being a trained attorney, but who cares, it's good training nonetheless.

October 8, 2008 at 11:40 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

glarson (anonymous) says...

Observation: I've put up a poll for you.

open_eyes: Thanks for the link to the AP fact-checking story. I managed to find room on Page 16 today and ran the story in the print edition. I prefer that much more than the usual debate report.

Gwen Larson
Managing Editor

October 8, 2008 at 1:04 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

open_eyes (anonymous) says...

First of all, I'm not aiming this at any particular person here, although it might seem that way - just at voters in general. I guess I'm unlike most Americans in that I don't put alot of stock in who is more polished in their rhetoric OR their appearance. Sure, we all want our leaders to look good, and glibly outtalk anyone under the table. We want them to appear confident and in control, master of the situation, when talking to foreign leaders as well as we Americans. And we certainly don't want them treating us as stupid, or dismissive. But I'm more of a meat-and-potatoes person. Maybe, in the future, less attractive and less glib politicians could just hire actors/actresses to stand in for them, much like the Geico commercials. Unfortunately I think too much of America puts too much stock into that.
That all being said, the candidate has got to get his point across in a convincing fashion. I don't think that McCain is as good at that as Obama. And McCain is going to lose every single beauty contest he enters, no doubt about it. But that doesn't concern me. What concerns me most is who's policies do I believe in. And, verifying their rhetoric afterwards. I personally see no difference between someone talking seemingly dismissive to someone directly to their face and someone who sweet-talks you with lies and distortions of the truth. Actually, I think it is worse to do the latter. If you want to call me stupid, do it to my face, don't do it by feeding me a line of crap with your winning smile and polished personality (I'm referring to any and all politicians). Lots of people have sure been sweet-talked by the mortgage lenders in the last decade. I managed to listen to a small part of the debate on the radio last night, I'm not so sure that in the future I may turn off the TV entirely and do the radio, so that whomever has the biggest smile won't affect my decision.

I listed the untruths from the debate in my earlier posts that I had the most problem with. And yes, not all by one candidate.

I think I need to watch some old Dragnet reruns. Just the facts, ma'am or sir.

October 8, 2008 at 1:19 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

open_eyes (anonymous) says...

Gwen - just saw your post. You are very welcome. It was just the first one I came across immediately after the debate, and seemed to be to be pretty fair in its assessments.

Gosh, I ask for a Dragnet rerun, and I get one! - LOL

Thanks again, Gwen.

October 8, 2008 at 1:21 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

bdprotheroe (anonymous) says...

I didn't get a chance to watch the second presidential debate. I'll just tune into the next episode of Saturday Night Live for a recap. :)

Brian Protheroe
San Francisco, CA

October 8, 2008 at 1:55 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

rbmorgan (anonymous) says...

While McCain did better than I expected (I thought he'd do more mud-slinging than he did and was thankful he didn't) I thought Obama clearly won the debate. In all the debates and speeches, the GOP has tended to focus on discrediting their opponent rather than focusing on the issues and how they'd address the problems. It seems that both canidates promised a "respectful" campaine, but neither have delivered! This is especially true with regard to the GOP convention. How can you ever expect bipartisan cooperation when you call the other side names! Very childish!!

Besides the economic issue, healthcare is one issue that seems to be very important to the public and for myself. I think Obama got it right when he said healthcare was a right of Americans. The reason I agree with Obama is that hospital emergency rooms cannot deny treatment to anyone who comes through the door...by law! It is in this sense that healthcare is a right. Problem is, many uninsured get their medical care this way and it is not an efficient way to provide it, costing all of us more. I'd also bet that McCain thinks very differently when the persons needing healthcare are veterans and he has to admit we haven't done a very good job for them. I also find it disturbing that McCain proposes that we tax healthcare benefits, yet claims he will not raise our taxes, what a crock! Unfortunately candidates tell lies to get elected and then do what they really want, a better way of putting it is to view their campaine speech as "mythos"(myth) and their actions after election as "epos" (epic).

I will be voting for Obama, mostly because I want a team that will be competent, unlike Geo. W.. Palin was a exceedingly incompetent choice for VP. I think if McCain would have picked Romney, Huckabee, or even Gullianni, he'd be ahead and probably win.

October 8, 2008 at 2:02 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

goodoleboy (anonymous) says...

Honestly why do we even run polls in this state, pretty laughable to me really. I conceded long ago that our state would vote Red, has since the 60's and I do not see it changing. That is close minded thinking and it makes me sad that we as a state have that many people who cannot think outside the box.

Open Eyes

2 glaring facts for me that lead me to Obama's camp are his stances on the Unions and to be honest, McCain's vp choice. The Employee Free Choice Act will pass under him and it will make a bi difference in this country. Empowering unions is the only way to keep a lot of these big companies straight, and its not secret that with the dwindling power of unions that the average worker has gotten the shallow end of things. Lets just say that if Wal-mart was unionized and their employees demanded good health care, I think this alone would necessitate change in our system, others would follow suit and when the large corporations lobby for change you know things get done.

McCain's pick of Palin for VP is just irresponsible and a flat out farce. She is in no way, shape or form fit to lead this country. McCain is 72, people counter this with Reagan at 70, but Reagan did not have a history of cancer and war wound that limit what he could do. The mantle of the Presidency will age him very fast so I think with all these factors that Palin has a very good chance of seeing the Office. Republicans and independents both have echoed this sentiment, even Cindy McCain herself spoke out against her abortion polices.

Two facts that make this a no brainier for me, even though I am in minority.

October 8, 2008 at 2:08 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

open_eyes (anonymous) says...

rbmorgan - check out point # 4 in the fact-check link above for the answer to your "what a crock" statement....

goodoleboy - then, by the same token, you would also agree that states that have basically voted Blue since the 1960's are also full of close-minded people who cannot think outside the box? Or is it just because they don't agree with you?

I think that unions have had their place in America, at times they have become too powerful and a detriment, and at other times/places they are desperately needed. What I see now, now, however, is that if a union gets too much power, the company will simply outsource. I do like Obama's stance on trying to cut down on the outsourcing & keep more jobs in this country.

I look at McCain's mother, how energetic & vibrant she is well into her 90's, and I think that family must have some pretty good longevity genes. Who knows? I've had extremely healthy friends die suddenly at young ages from strokes, accidents, and I've got relatives I thought wouldn't last the year with their poor health still wheezing 20 years later. And what exactly are the limits of McCain's war wounds that make him unfit for the presidency? Are they worse than FDR's being in a wheelchair? I'm not going to cast my vote based on who I think will be pres in 6 months, but who I think should take the mantle in January.

If the candidates stance on abortion is what matters most to you, then you obviously need to vote for Obama. Never mind the chance of the next president getting to make 3 or 4 Supreme Court nominations, and having those nominations lean heavily one way or the other, and actually getting those nominations thru Congress, and then having them change that law is about a zillion to one. Let's all vote Obama because if McCain is elected Roe vs Wade will be overturned within a week. Yeah, right.

Lot's of people would apply your same sentiments about Palin to Obama. Well, she has taken on corruption in her own party, Obama has not. She has taken on big oil and gotten profits back from them and distributed to the people, Obama has not. She has an 80% approval rating in her state, Obama does not. All depends on which side of the coin you want to look at it from. I would say she has without a doubt accomplished more in 2 years as governor than Obama has in 4 years as Senator. But, he's a smooth talker, and has no war wounds to limit his abilities, so let's give him that. - LOL

October 8, 2008 at 2:26 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

goodoleboy (anonymous) says...

Companies that have unions outsource? No sir, in fact it is the opposite in recent times. Unions have dwindled in power in a time when we need them most, powerful unions will keep jobs here, and will raise the standard of living for the average American.

No, states that voted blue since the 60's are just as bad, I am unaffiliated and vote best person for the job. Don't twist my words sir, What do other states voting have to do with my view that Kansas is close minded?

You talk of McCain's health, sure he could live on a long while. But the ODDS are good that something could happen to him with his ailment, age and the high stress environment he will be subjected to. Look at Bush in 1999, look at him now, easy to see what that job does to people. The presidency is not a gamble, and I will not gamble McCain's health on Palin not being President.

Again twisting words with abortion, I said Palin's stance on abortion is ab horrid to me and hers alone. It was used as an example. She is unfit to lead, not just because of her stance on abortion sir. She is not ready to take on the office, the majority of Americans regardless of affiliation believe this(thank god). And as far as corruption goes she continues to hide behind the GOP lawyers after saying "Hold me accountable" on this probe into her firing of an employee. Seriously is she has nothing to hide then why not cooperate and get it over with? I'll wager after this election we will see some interesting things happen here, but yeah, no corruption there at all eh? Not yet. Comparing a governor to a Senator is apples to oranges, I could spin this one either way, we could talk about her "bridge to nowhere" and the federal money she took for that 250 million+ that never was returned.

Bottom line, Obama is the best we have to choose from in my eyes, I'll take my smooth talker over someone who makes poor decisions.

October 8, 2008 at 2:54 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

bdprotheroe (anonymous) says...

I think both "open_eyes" and "goodoleboy" have made good points about geography. We do not live in swing states; you in Kansas (reliably red) or me in California (basically blue).

When I lived in Missouri, a swing state and the "Bellwhether State" of the nation, I found political conversations to be much more engaging because the exchange of ideas and opinions were much more balanced (i.e. both sides), detailed and less abrasive. This is due in great part with equal party registration between Republicans and Democrats, and a lot more independents.

Yet, do not only look at the big picture, specifically maps of the U.S. which only color-code the states. Take a look at those maps breaking down each state by county. More fascinating, as there it is easy to see the red enclaves in blue states and vice versa. Kansas is not entirely red, and California is not entirely blue. It is much more interesting to watch the opinions sway when you hold up a magnifying glass to each state.

BP
SF, CA

October 8, 2008 at 2:57 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

create (anonymous) says...

Goodoleboy, You may be in minority in a red state like Kansas, but every vote counts. I'm voting Obama too, and even though Kansas will weigh in Republican, Kansas is not by herself voting for president. BTW, I liked the points you made on the value of unions and Obama taking a stand there. I am a lifelong member of the NEA, and I know how valuable that has been in the lives of teachers all over this country.

Here's something else that gives my vote to Obama and raspberries to McCain. McCain's remark last night that Obama supported a congressional earmark of "$3 million for an overhead projector at a planetarium in Chicago, Ill. My friends, do we need to spend that kind of money?"

C'mon! That remark was taken so far out of context McCain should be hanging his head in shame. What BS! McCain was suggesting that Obama spent $3 million on some old-fashioned piece of equipment used to project maps on the wall. Hello! The money was for an overhaul of the theater system that projects images of stars and planets for educational shows at Chicago's Adler Planetarium. "When he announced the $3 million earmark last year, Obama said the planetarium's 40-year-old projection system 'has begun to fail, leaving the theater dark and groups of school students and other interested museum-goers without this very valuable and exciting learning experience.' " I know I would love it if some expenditure like that was made for our own Kansas children and grandchildren. Beats that bridge to nowhere that Palin liked on one hand and denied on the other!!!

October 8, 2008 at 3:06 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

open_eyes (anonymous) says...

I did not say that I was anti-union. Just put the 2 words together "unions" and "outsourcing" and google it, and you will see quite a few instances where companies have just simply moved operations overseas to avoid union demands. Powerful unions will not keep jobs here UNLESS steps to make outsourcing and overseas operations less attractive to companies. In today's global economy, it takes more than just the union itself. I even SAID I like Obama's stance on stemming outsourcing.

As far as McCain's remark about the $3 million overhead projector, that also is mentioned on my fact-check link. I simply did not list it as one of the more important ones to me, because, frankly, I'm more concerned with where and why $700 billion plus of our dollars go in this current financial meltdown than a $3 million planetarium overhaul. I agree that I think it WAS a petty point for McCain to make. I would rather he point to the $350 million Biden has asked in earmarks for tiny Delaware, the $100 million in earmarks Obama has asked for Illinios, the $197 million in earmarks Palin has asked for Alaska, and then point to his own record on earmarks. The guy just doesn't know how to make his points as well as Obama. He's not as polished, smooth, and handsome.

October 8, 2008 at 3:24 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

open_eyes (anonymous) says...

I don't excuse McCains $3 million projector remark. It was a line of stretched BS. I'm simply saying that BS about why we are now an extra $700 billion in debt trumps the $3 million to me. It affects me more directly. And, if we're comparing BS, I think it stacks up a whole lot higher.
Sometimes a strange thought goes thru my head - the Democrats on the Banking committe, all those that said Fannie & Freddie were fine even despite all the warnings, the shooting down of Bush's plans to overhaul and ADD some oversight & regulation to Fannie & Freddie - it's almost as if they manufactured this crash, knowing full well it would push voters in the next election in their direction. How's that for a pie-in-the-sky full-blown Conspiracy Theory? LOL
Well, it would work, except plenty of both sides of the aisle also have dirty hands in it, so dang, there goes that.... shucks, thought I had it for a second there....

October 8, 2008 at 3:44 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

goodoleboy (anonymous) says...

Open eyes

That is just it, the Unions are not powerful, they have dipped from approx 20-25% to 9-10% in the last 20 years. Empower them and companies will not be able to go overseas less they take the chance of causing a major strike. I work in IT, I know all about outsourcing believe me, Unions will hold jobs here, and most importantly make companies accountable to employees as employees are to them.

I agree with 100% on McCain not presenting himself well, I think Obama painting him as out of touch is a master stroke, but what I am not decided on is if it is him or his advisers. After seeing the way he handled the public during the debate I am inclined to think it could be him.

October 8, 2008 at 3:48 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

goodoleboy (anonymous) says...

Create,

I realize every vote counts, that is why I even though I know it is futile I will vote Obama. It is good to see that other people value unions, and it still amazes me how often people that are a part of unions often vote Republican which on the whole opposes them, effectively slitting their own throat. My wife is also a teacher so I can appreciate what you have to say =)

October 8, 2008 at 3:54 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

open_eyes (anonymous) says...

goodoleboy - this is a quote that I think explains my point better:

"Where workers are unionized, they often have the clout to negotiate contracts and influence public policy to keep companies from shipping out work as soon as they see a cheaper alternative on the horizon."

INFLUENCE PUBLIC POLICY - I think that is the key. Unions CAN'T get too powerful these days, because the company will ship everything out if they do. That is one reason I think unions have declined. But I've also seen unions pretty much break companies. There is give and take there, but you are right, right now the unions have lost alot of their power, and the companies have them over a barrel - work cheaper, or we ship it out.

Believe me, I also know all about outsourcing, from first-hand experience.

October 8, 2008 at 4:04 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

USNretired (anonymous) says...

Only one thing to say HA HA HA HA HA get back on your meds (you know who you are).

October 8, 2008 at 4:04 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

open_eyes (anonymous) says...

But if you REALLY want to get your blood boiling... I assume everyone has heard about the AIG fatcats running up a half-million $$ bill at a resort AFTER the bailout? Among other a**hole CEO's getting huge golden parachutes as their companies go down in flames. Make sure you have nothing sharp, flammable or breakable within reach before you read these stories:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27075884/

Also ran across this for an analysis of exactly who benefits from the bailout:

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/...

October 8, 2008 at 4:10 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

open_eyes (anonymous) says...

Oh, and in my "companies have them over a barrel" comment, I should have added to "work cheaper, or we ship it out" this: "Or we ship workers in, or hire illegal aliens. Because once we drive the wage down far enough, then we can say its just a job that Amercans don't want".

October 8, 2008 at 4:12 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

goodoleboy (anonymous) says...

open eyes

Sure they can, take Wal-Mart for example, largest private employer in the US, how will they ship out those jobs? They can't. For production means your point has some merit, but if the entity in question has other facilities in the US then those will strike, so its all in or all out type philosophy, not cut corners where we can like it is currently. The United States has a large service based sector that try as they might, companies cannot simply outsource, at least not until robotics becomes viable lol.

October 8, 2008 at 4:17 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

open_eyes (anonymous) says...

Don't worry, where there's a will, there's a way. Who would have ever thought 20 years ago that all our IT work was going to India? I'm just waiting, (sorry, create) for when they decide teachers are too expensive, and replace them all with video screens of a teacher in India working for $5/day. (Of course, for alot of our liberal professors who are all for open borders, illegal immigration, and outsourcing, I wish that WOULD happen to them - lots of people are all for something, as long as it affects everybody but them). They're even doing surgeries remotely now - from halfway around the globe. I wouldn't bet against anything anymore. If only we could outsource congress (sigh)....

Don't hold your breath too long thinking something can NEVER be outsourced, goodoleboy. You're already BLUE enough... (pun intended).... LOL

October 8, 2008 at 4:26 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

goodoleboy (anonymous) says...

open eyes

Point taken, but those views are pretty extreme, even for me lol. IT work being outsourced is an issue we saw coming and partly our own fault( IT professionals). Just pointing out that short of advanced robotics what you are talking about will not happen, think of the backlash around here alone if some of these folks had a teacher in India teaching their kids? How is she supposed to keep them in line? Electric shock lol?

October 8, 2008 at 4:34 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

open_eyes (anonymous) says...

Who would have thought we would be doing advanced surgeries remotely through robotics? That is ALREADY happening, RIGHT NOW. Yeah, I would have thought that was an extreme view not that long ago.

As far as keeping kids in line, I thought that was an outdated schooling method? I have some friends who are teachers that feel virtually powerless to discipline kids nowadays. And I don't mean physically. You can't even give a kid a zero for turning in a blank paper without mommy & daddy running to the school and putting the heat on you. Or getting you fired as coach becuase you don't start little Johnny (who can't walk and chew gum at the same time). So I don't see a problem there. Nowadays, it's more like the TEACHER is the one wired up with an electric shock, and the parents zap him/her every time their kid gets a grade they don't like, or doesn't play the 4th quarter. It may sound like I'm exagerrating, but I'm not that far off the mark, according to many of my friends who are currently in the teaching profession.

October 8, 2008 at 4:45 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

open_eyes (anonymous) says...

One more thing on we saw the IT outsourcing coming. Well, maybe I'll give you that point, partly. We never figured the companies would be happy with the poor quality, missed deadlines, etc.. that outsourcing has brought much of the IT world. But, we never figured that the all-mighty dollar being saved (and all going straight to the fatcats pockets, not any of us) would override work that was just that shoddy. Boy, were we ever wrong. If it saves a penny, do it. Regardless of how poor it is. The CEO making that directive will be long gone and living on his private island with his golden parachute by the time it all catches up.

October 8, 2008 at 4:49 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

goodoleboy (anonymous) says...

Not touching this one anymore, create is going to murder you lol

October 8, 2008 at 4:50 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

open_eyes (anonymous) says...

Sorry for getting on a roll, but it just hit me about your Wal-Mart example. It's all pretty much manufactured overseas already, so what is your point about Wal-Mart? The only jobs I see left are in distribution, stockboy, checkout person, and greeter. Is that the only employment our children have to look forward to when they enter the workforce? Everything will be built overseas, all the IT work will be done overseas, we'll just have a nation of truckers and Wal-Mart greeters. That's just it. The only thing left here will be service jobs. Stuff that is the hardest (for now) to outsource. Somehow I had higher aspirations and hopes for the futures of the next generation..... :(

October 8, 2008 at 4:58 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

open_eyes (anonymous) says...

Oh, I'm not blaming the teachers. Quite the opposite. I think they're one of the most underpaid professions there are today. I'm just telling it like I hear it from other teachers.

October 8, 2008 at 5:03 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

goodoleboy (anonymous) says...

Open eyes,

Could not agree with you more on where things are headed, which is one of the reasons workers need more of a voice, I see it as going that way regardless, but giving the employees a voice at least gives them a chance.

The only problem I see with your theory is that if it gets to that point then we will not have the purchasing power to necessitate that. China and India quality of living will improve, and as it does the value of outsourcing jobs to them will not be as appealing as it once was, this and at some point the government will need to start heavily taxing and putting tariffs on companies that are guilty of this. The conundrum of business is that it cannot always grow, no matter what the CEO or shareholders want, it is impractical.

Time will tell.

October 8, 2008 at 5:23 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

UsayULoveGod (anonymous) says...

I went to buy some levi's made in the USA and I could not find not one Pair !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Until we demand that China buy more items from the USA , it will only get worse .

The trade deficit is mad crazy.

October 8, 2008 at 5:32 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

USNretired (anonymous) says...

You can make all of the demands you want, but if someone else can write the code cheaper, telnet or rlogin into your system from any IP and manage or operate, your demands fall on deaf ears. Same if your jeans or blouse can be cut and sewn. Teachers have to compete with home schooling up to the college level, but products with time constraints or location constraints may be able to be held for ransom or other forms of extortion. If we can export it to other places, we can probably import it as well. Unions were really only strategic in nature until the leaders found out they could treat the rank and file as chattel, ordering them to act or vote according to the leadership's will.

October 8, 2008 at 5:58 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

open_eyes (anonymous) says...

Create, I'm glad you didn't murder me on the teacher comments, like goodoleboy thought you might. I've grown quite fond of flavoring food with basil lately.... :)

October 8, 2008 at 5:59 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

create (anonymous) says...

Hey open_eyes, you're not far off when you say, "when they decide teachers are too expensive, and replace them all with video screens of a teacher in India working for $5/day." That is already done in Australia for kids who live so far out that it makes no sense to travel back and forth to school. We do something somewhat similar here with the alternative schools. A kid sits at a computer to do his/her lessons. A teacher sits nearby in case they have any questions. One teacher serves many.

Also, you're not far off with regard to how teachers are sometimes "handled" by parents. As you might guess, I never had that problem. LOL

The year before last, Las Vegas public schools were so short of teachers that they hired a large number of teachers from the Phillippines to fill the void. The language barrier was tremendous, and it didn't last long. Finally Vegas raised the salaries and American teachers applied.

LOL goodoleboy, using electric shock to keep kids in line. I've had a kid or two over the years.....well, you see what I mean. My best tool was a cold, hard stare, a raised eyebrow and the deafening silence in the classroom that followed.

Back to the debate. Here's why I believe body language and demeanor does indeed make a difference. goodoleboy said, "After seeing the way he handled the public during the debate I am inclined to think it could be him." Yes, being able to watch the candidates interact with each other and with people in the audience makes a good deal of difference.

Usay, we need to make an item in the U.S. that is so popular in China that every Chinese will have to have one. Oh yeah, I forgot, as soon as we make it, they or South Korea will copy it and then we will want it.

October 8, 2008 at 6:29 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

open_eyes (anonymous) says...

Glad to hear my teacher friends aren't the only ones. Or, should I say, sad to hear they aren't the only ones.

Back to the debate - Of, course, body language and demeanor DO make a difference. They need to be able to think on their feet and react. I just think too much emphasis is put on it at times, though. Not unlike people who will vote for Palin purely because she is a woman, or for Obama purely because he is black. Plenty of people out there (unfortunately) will vote for who comes across as the most "likeable" - regardless of their views. Or, purely because of their political affiliation, but of course we already know there are plenty of those.
Speaking of handling the public, I love the way Palin handled the heckler during her speech recently. I'm sure you all know what I'm talking about. Sounds pretty quick on her feet to me.....

Actually, we already DO make items in the US that are so popular China and the rest of the world are buying them all up. Our land, our hotels, our businesses...... and our politicians......

October 8, 2008 at 6:47 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

create (anonymous) says...

Touche on your last paragraph, open_eyes. Sad but true!

Suppertime!!! Ham and beans and cornbread. How southern. But I am from the southernmost westernmost state.

October 8, 2008 at 6:57 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

create (anonymous) says...

Just thought of something. What are we going to do when the election is over? Wander the streets aimlessly?

October 8, 2008 at 7:15 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

open_eyes (anonymous) says...

Well, if McCain wins, I plan on moving to Hollywood and buying some vacated 2.6 million $$ mansion owned by a movie star who claimed they would move to Canada if McCain wins. If Obama wins, I'll quit my job and still buy a house way, way, way, way over what I can afford.

Not to worry, though. I plan on the government bailing me out either way.

Oh, and after Uncle Sam bails me out, I'm going to the same resort the AIG people went to.

October 8, 2008 at 8:01 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

create (anonymous) says...

But isn't it McCain who is suggesting bailing out all these bad mortgage holders directly?

October 9, 2008 at 7:05 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

goodoleboy (anonymous) says...

Last I read he was supporting buying back these mortgages at face value, in essence rewarding the very lenders.

October 9, 2008 at 7:42 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

create (anonymous) says...

Absolutely, McCain's plan, the American Homeownership Resurgence Plan, would cost $300 billion and target homeowners who are either delinquent on their mortgages or are likely to fall behind soon. It would benefit borrowers and lenders who made bad decisions.

But there's a catch. What he doesn't tell you about his plan is that in order to qualify for a bailout, these delinquent homeowners must make a significant down payment and offer documentation of their income and assets at the time they purchased the home.

How many delinquent homeowners have any cash for a down payment now? If they did, I'm sure they would have caught up on payments to begin with. On top of that, many of these loans were made without documentation of income and assets. That's why so many of these mortgage companies are in trouble.

October 9, 2008 at 8:47 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

open_eyes (anonymous) says...

Like I said, I plan on the government bailing me out EITHER way....

I'm also going to agree with the comment that said our votes won't matter. Given the daily revelations coming out about ACORN (Obama's old community organizing group, currently being investigated by the FBI for voter fraud in 12 states) - it's pretty much a done deal, I think. This morning they reported ACORN added over 600,000 new registered voters in Ohio, which has been LOSING population. I think my cat is probably registered to vote 20-25 times in Ohio alone... well, she should be, given the cat names they were reading off this morning that ACORN had signed up there.... LOL

October 9, 2008 at 9:19 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

lycomu (anonymous) says...

You can parade a list of associations for both canidates that give pause for concern. You can argue that my guy always tells the truth and the other guy is lying. The facts are often as misleading as the canadates themselves. Both sides use bits and pieces of their opponents words to their own advantage. This is the the nature of politics in America. You can argue all you want that your canidate is the only one that can get the job done. The reality is that it takes the congress to get things done. They are the ones that control the money. If you want to affect real change, change the makeup of congress

October 9, 2008 at 10:08 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

goodoleboy (anonymous) says...

Obama was never a community organizer or trainer for ACORN, he was never even employed by them other then representing them in a few lawsuits in the early 90's. Might want to look at Ken Blackwell and his ties to the Bush administration though, since it is recent and not 20 years ago.

October 9, 2008 at 10:09 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

goodoleboy (anonymous) says...

After reading in depth about McCain's housing plan I cannot help but think him insane. It's totally absurd. But don't take my word

http://money.cnn.com/2008/10/08/news/...

Amazing...........

October 9, 2008 at 10:16 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

open_eyes (anonymous) says...

You'll have to argue that point with ACORN themselves, goodoleboy.

" Mr. Obama once conducted "leadership training" seminars with Acorn, and Acorn members also served as volunteers in Mr. Obama's early campaigns."

October 9, 2008 at 10:53 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

open_eyes (anonymous) says...

From NPR article:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/st...

"In general, McCain's is not a new idea, although it has been gaining traction recently. Liberal and conservative economists alike have been calling for something along these lines.

Last week, Democratic Rep. Rush Holt of New Jersey called for the government to take similar action. He said that during the Great Depression, the government set up a federal corporation to restructure loans for homeowners.

"The Home Owners' Loan Corp. is a model that could be used today," Holt said. "This was a large-scale program, and it rescued more than a million homeowners' mortgages at that time."

So.... we did this during the depression, huh? I guess that makes FDR.... insane?

October 9, 2008 at 10:56 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

lycomu (anonymous) says...

wow a FDR reference. a liberal democrat who was also a hawk. hmmmmm

October 9, 2008 at 11:04 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

goodoleboy (anonymous) says...

Is their any concrete data on this other than heresay? For instance we know about McCain and and the Keating savings and loan scandal we get different reports on this with Obama, in fact I tend to discredit it because currently McCain is slinging everything he can at Obama and I have yet to hear much on Acorn from him.

October 9, 2008 at 11:06 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

open_eyes (anonymous) says...

Well, here's an article that sites Toni Foulkes, a Chicago ACORN leader and a member of ACORN’s National Association Board:

http://sweetness-light.com/archive/ob...

The funny part is down towards the bottom, where they have her direct statements, and then contrast them with Obama's denials on his "Fight The Smear" website.

Gosh, I wonder why the Acorn people themselves would lie and say he did all this for them..... while Obama claims he didn't.... hmmm..... interesting..... (sorry, just thinking out loud...)

October 9, 2008 at 11:17 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

create (anonymous) says...

Obama may have done some training with ACORN, but I don't believe he actually trained them to go out and register false names. I simply don't believe he would commit that kind of political suicide.

I do believe that ACORN itself should be investigated if there is illegal registration suspected. If so, they need to hang. I welcome the federal investigation and hope it gets done in time for the election. If its that serious, hold off on the election. Yeah, I said that.

October 9, 2008 at 11:35 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )