Don’t tell Nate Terrell that Barack Obama is the first black president of the United States. He and others, thinks that evidence — if not traditional history — shows there already have been several U.S. presidents of mixed race.
“… (I)f we go with George Washington as our first (American president), then Obama would be No. 7,” said Terrell, department chairman and associate professor of sociology at Emporia State University, who received his doctorate in sociology from Iowa State University. “But we have six presidents whose parents — five mothers, one father — had black blood. But we never claimed that for these folks.”
The possibilities are something he said he has presented to his students for about six or seven years.
Terrell deals with the possibility of black U.S. presidents in two classes at ESU — race and ethnic relations and introduction to sociology.
That issue is not something found routinely in history texts used in schools around the country. Terrell’s information comes from piecing together information from other sources that include books written by Abraham Lincoln’s law partner, William H. Herndon, and a biography by Chancellor Williams.
Thomas Jefferson
Thomas Jefferson, Terrell said, was the country’s first black president.
“Most researchers look at this as ‘hypodescent,’” he said. “So if you have a mixed child, then that child is going to be black, if they have any black blood.”
Terrell asserts that Jefferson’s mixed blood came from his mother, Jane Randolph Jefferson.
“Her father was considered mulatto mix with black and (India) Indian, so his grandfather is considered black and Indian,” Terrell said.
Andrew Jackson
Andrew Jackson was the second president alleged to be black.
“The story behind him is his mother migrated from Ireland to what we called the Crawford Farm, where her sister was,” Terrell explained.
The woman who would become Jackson’s mother already had been widowed before she arrived at Crawford farm.
“And she had a union with a slave on the plantation, so the only way we would allow that to happen was if this was a light-skinned slave,” Terrell said.
One of the source books traces Andrew Jackson’s brother being sold into slavery.
“He’s the first one (president), actually, I would say, that the father had black blood,” Terrell said. “Most likely the father was one of the light-skinned slaves around the plantation.”
Abraham Lincoln
Nancy Hanks, the mother of Abraham Lincoln, was credited with providing the black blood some believe to be in the 16th president of the United States.
“That, for most people, is not a surprise,” Terrell said. “Nancy Hanks, his mother, her father was Ethiopian, so it’s like how can Nancy’s father be Ethiopian? Rumor was she had an illegitimate child with a father who was mixed. … We’re pretty sure with Abraham Lincoln that her father was from the Ethiopian tribe. That actually came from his law partner, William Herndon.”
Herndon, at one point, wrote that Lincoln believed he was not the son of Thomas Lincoln, but the son of another man, whose name Herndon said Lincoln had sought.
Herndon’s book, “Herndon’s Lincoln: The True Story of a Great Life” is available online for less than $40. The book, as well as documentations that became sources for books by others, grew from Herndon’s long and close association with the president.
“The Hidden Lincoln: From the Letters and Papers of William H. Herndon,” credits both Herndon and Emanuel Hertz as authors. It also is available online for less than $20.
Warren G. Harding
Terrell named Warren G. Harding as the nation’s fourth black president.
“Harding’s father, George Harding, was mulatto,” Terrell said. “They describe him as a man with big lips and chocolate skin.”
Chancellor Williams wrote a book mentioning Harding’s ancestry, Terrell said.
“The weird thing is our government, the Justice Department, tried to buy up all of the books and destroy them. I thought, ‘Why?’” Terrell said.
Williams reportedly quoted Harding as saying, “How should I know whether or not one of my ancestors may have jumped the fence?” Terrell added.
Harding got his only academic degree from Iberia College, which had been founded to educate fugitive slaves, Terrell said.
Calvin Coolidge
Black president No. 5 on Terrell’s list is Calvin Coolidge, whose mother, Victoria Moore, was said to be of mixed blood.
“They said she had fair complexion with a ‘rich growth,’ they called it, of brown hair,” Terrell said. “There’s a story that his grandfather, when Calvin Coolidge turned 18, told him, ‘Happy birthday. Here’s your 40 acres and a mule.’
“The Republican party promised slaves when they were released, they’d give ’em 40 acres and a mule.”
Terrell believes it is possible that Coolidge’s mother’s surname, a variation on “Moor,” came from a European habit of giving the surname “specifically to black people in Europe.”
Dwight Eisenhower
The most-recent president believed to perhaps have mixed descent is Dwight D. Eisenhower, who was born in Texas and reared in Kansas.
“The rumor was his dad was mixed, coming out of Africa,” Terrell said. “… But his mother, Ida (Elizabeth) Stover Eisenhower, was mulatto. And when I show people pictures of her they say, ‘Oh well, we can tell. Just by looking at mom, we can tell she was mixed.’”
The photograph reputed to be of Eisenhower’s mother and father was published this year by the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, in conjunction with several articles run on the subject of black presidents.
Terrell’s teachings also come through books by historians Joel A. Rodgers, Dr. Leroy Vaughn and Dr. Auset Bakhufu.
Although Vaughn does not assert that Eisenhower was of mixed ancestry, his 2006 book, “Black People And Their Place in World History” states there may have been five black U.S. Presidents, according to the online news, The Daily Voice, Black America’s Daily News Source.
The Daily Voice states, “Vaughn cites what he says is literary evidence that Thomas Jefferson, Andrew Jackson, Abraham Lincoln, Warren Harding and Calvin Coolidge all ‘had Black people among their ancestors.’ The Daily Voice could find no major national news outlet or presidential scholar who has ever confirmed that claim.”
Bakhufu appears to be the only historian of the three who includes Eisenhower in his book, “The Six Black Presidents: Black Blood, White Masks.” Depending upon the Web site, the book is available at costs ranging from about $13 to $150.
Happiness08 (anonymous) says...
I am about sick already of hearing the "black president" issued discussed. Did we elect a black man or did we elect a new President. I'm beginning to wonder.
November 5, 2008 at 3:06 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Happiness08 (anonymous) says...
Apparently prejudice and racial issues are very much alive and well, or we wouldn't be so focused on what color his skin is (or appears to be.
November 5, 2008 at 3:08 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
LifeGoesOn (anonymous) says...
I agree 100%, who cares, the man has just as much "white blood" as "black blood" I didnt see him as a black man when I voted just as I didnt see Mccain as a white man. Good Grief, lets move on already!
I am sure there were those who voted for him just because his hair was curley and his skin was dark just as I'm sure some voted against him for the same reason. I feel like it is rasist just bringing up the fact that he is "black" For Gods sake, if it had been the other way around, we sure would not be hearing things like , America has just elected another white man as president!
November 5, 2008 at 4:03 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Happiness08 (anonymous) says...
Ok crackinsack, next time I vote I believe I will first consider how much they weigh, how tall they are, and what color their eyes are. Maybe it will make world history. I'm also upset that the President of South Africia announced today as a national holiday because Obama got elected. Maybe the Queen of England will declare a national holiday next time we elect a white guy. HA!
November 5, 2008 at 4:54 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Pollyanna (anonymous) says...
I agree with Life Goes on that there probably are people who voted for him based on skin color and people who didn't vote for him based on skin color. For us to say, however, "I don't see color or don't notice that" are doing a disservice to African Americans. Crackinsack makes a good point that it is a first for our nation to have a truly dark skinned President. To see so many black americans shedding tears of joy and pride and to feel as though they can tell their children truthfully.."you can be ANYTHING you want in the USA" is a beautiul thing.
November 5, 2008 at 4:55 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Happiness08 (anonymous) says...
And.....my way of thinking is that we have NOT gotten beyond "the petty differences" or it wouldn't make a difference.
November 5, 2008 at 4:57 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
acricket (anonymous) says...
OK people he has only 6% black and is mostly Arab for the rest, so lets see if he takes the oath on the Bible or refuses.
November 5, 2008 at 7:51 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
booker5m (anonymous) says...
Whats the big deal there are no pure races. I myself come from mix stock.All I know is when Bama starts passing out all the free money I will be in line with the rest. HEHEHHE
November 5, 2008 at 8:09 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jackslap (anonymous) says...
No matter who we got it is still better then what we have now!
November 5, 2008 at 8:20 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
justaflushaway (anonymous) says...
This comment was removed by the site staff for violation of the usage agreement.
November 5, 2008 at 6:54 p.m. ( permalink )
hottopics (anonymous) says...
Why is race a headline? Would we have a 'white' president if McCain won? We may perceive him that way because of his looks, his wife, his kids etc. and so what if he is? He is a Senator, that works for us but now holds a better position. I got the feeling thats how he wants to be seen, not a black president, but a president who earned his way there by working hard like the rest of us AMERICANS.
I agree, Im tired of it already. We are AMERICANS and the skin color doesnt play in my books nor should it else where but people cant help but play on it.
November 5, 2008 at 10:14 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
tubaguyry (anonymous) says...
Observation (anonymous) wrote: "I am concerned that he will become anti-redneck.."
You're CONCERNED that he will become anti-redneck? First of all, Barack Obama is an intelligent, sensitive, caring man. These qualities mean that he is completely anti-redneck right now. He doesn't need to become that way. Secondly, anti-redneck is a GOOD THING. Racist, redneck, gun-toting warmongers are to be reviled, not accepted.
Yes We Can.
YES WE DID.
Congratulations, President Obama! The next eight years are going to be great!!!
November 6, 2008 at 2:32 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
create (anonymous) says...
acricket writes: "...he has only 6% black and is mostly Arab for the rest, so lets see if he takes the oath on the Bible or refuses."
Why can't people like acricket get this right? The answer is because they don't want to. Obama's Kenya step-grandmother in Kenya says they are non-practicing muslim. How does that make them Arab? And what if they were Arab? We have many fine Arab-Americans in this country. People like acricket are so incredibly misinformed that it is dangerous because they continue to pour this poisoned information out across the web. Add to that the fact that people who put out wrong information are banking on the fact that no one will bother to check it for facts.
acricket, didn't you see the Colin Powell interview on Meet the Press? Here's a quick quote from that morning:
"Stressing that Obama was a lifelong Christian, Powell denounced Republican tactics that he said were insulting not only to to Obama but also to Muslims.
“The really right answer is what if he is?” Powell said, praising the contributions of millions of Muslim citizens to American society. "
People like acricket sit at a keyboard with a wealth of knowledge at their fingertips, but still refuse to look up a word of it. They will believe what they want to believe, including the idea that he will not use a Bible to take his oath of office. And when that day comes and he does place his hand on a Bible, those naysayers will have some crazy notion already cooked up about it. Disgusting! Damned if you do, damned if you don't. These excuses are nothing more than the worst kind of racism there is, code wording for "he's black." It's insidious and dangerous.
Snopes offers the very best explanation of the misinformation about Obama's religion that stemmed from the very damaging e-mail that has been spreading the lie for quite some time now.
acricket, I hope you find the time and good sense to use this link I'm providing for you to clear up this mess. Of course, now that I've led this horse to water, can I expect him/her to drink? Unfortunately, too many believe that because they received it in an e-mail, then it must be true. For God sakes, cricket, there's a wellspring of information at your fingertips. Drink! Drink deeply!
http://snopes.com/politics/obama/musl...
November 6, 2008 at 6:59 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
hartford (anonymous) says...
Observation:
Anti redneck???? Are you serious????? Wow,,,,how ignorant!
November 6, 2008 at 7:48 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
hartford (anonymous) says...
acricket:
6% black huh? I take it you are one of the ones who hope Obama doesn't become anti redneck?
LOL!
Some of you are too funny!
November 6, 2008 at 7:52 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
UsayULoveGod (anonymous) says...
I think this means for Black America what it means for White America. I have always bought into the theory that if you look into the works of Martin Luther King, Jr., there are people who will say, [when we fight racial discrimination] “it is as much to free White Americans from their past as it is to free Black Americans from their past.” So I don’t think that we do ourselves a whole lot of good separating out Barack Obama as a Black person’s candidate or White person’s candidate, it’s all about America.
November 6, 2008 at 7:59 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
historian1982 (Nick Gronseth) says...
don't you people have lives??? seriously
November 6, 2008 at 9:15 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
OutsiderJ (anonymous) says...
What do you mean, "you people" ???
Its kinda funny that someone would post a comment asking if the posters have lives, while simultaneously showing that they don't have a life by posting irrelevant comments.
I think this article is kind of stupid. If you had asked or mentioned this to any of those presidents, I bet they would have denied it and denied it and denied it again. I think that is the real point or significance (if there is one) of the race issue in this election. Barack Obama is not ashamed or denying his black heritage and that is ground breaking and earth shaking for this country, and I think it certainly qualifies him as the first black president. Unless you count Bill Clinton (which was a popular joke when he was president)LOL!
November 6, 2008 at 9:26 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
dhcc66 (anonymous) says...
welcome to middle America...a notch in the bible belt..where we still judge people by the color of their skin.
i could care less if he's orange and purple, as long as he leads America in the right direction which would be away from the last 8 years.
if anybody has bothered to pay attention to the news, world leaders are embracing him as a "new ray of hope"....gee...nothing mentioned about his skin color there huh?? thats because world leaders come in all sizes, shapes, colors, and religious backgrounds.
get real folks...if you have to worry about the skin color, you need help
November 6, 2008 at 9:53 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
The FACT is, the Obama IS only 6% African heritage, and a large part Arab. That is just FYI purposes only. Beyond that, it means nothing. America is made up of ALL ethnicities - the only "true" Americans are the Native Americans, and even they came to this land long ago from various places. He is NOT a Muslim, he is a Christian. GET OVER IT, people.
Yes, it is of great historical significance that he is our first black president, or at least in skin color. Something that deserves to be noted and marked, and celebrated as yet another significant milestone that we have, indeed, come a long way from 60 years ago, unlike what some people think. Just because there are some racists out there does not mean we have not come a long way as a country or as a society. Idiots will ALWAYS live among us. I've been to enough foreign countries to know that America is a LONG ways from being the most racist country on the planet. We just proved that again Tuesday night. So Get Over It and Move Forward.
I agree, this article is kinda stupid. Oh well, brings them out of the woodwork, doesn't it? - LOL
November 6, 2008 at 10:01 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Happiness08 (anonymous) says...
If anybody read the print version of the Gazette it had a picture of Mr. Terrell. Guess what? He is also black. I just wonder what his purpose of this whole article was, and what the point of it all is. I do agree with Pollyann who said that Obama's election is a message to young africian american's that they are not held back by race, and can achieve their dreams. I think the 50 plus generation IS still affected by their parents prejudice opinions. It is how we were raised. It's a good thing that a new message with new hope has come out of this.
November 6, 2008 at 10:06 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
madpoet (anonymous) says...
What does it matter if someone had African ancestors? If you go back far enough we're all from the same stock anyway. I fail to see the big issue here. To be honest, religion is a bigger issue for me than race since that shapes your thinking and reactions more than race in most cases.
I'm from a small Kansas town and everyone ran around together regardless of race or national origin. Some of my classmates came from Vietnam and Cambodia following the war. That was fine. It was cool that some kids could speak more than one language. I moved to Emporia to go to ESU and was shocked to learn that 95% of the black students wouldn't have anything to do with me since I was too white for them. Racism goes both ways, it's not just white people against other races. I had heard some African-Americans had grumbled because he wasn't descended from a freed slave but an actual African. How funny is that!
I bet there were people who voted for Obama just because he was black as there were who voted against him for the same reason.
November 6, 2008 at 10:52 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
historian1982 (Nick Gronseth) says...
so apparently we can no longer use the term "you people" without it instantly connoting a racial epithet (and yes, that is the correct term)....and I am able to do something called multi-task...you should look into it...fyi
November 6, 2008 at 11:10 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
OutsiderJ (anonymous) says...
Sarcasm is wasted on some people...or you people...:)
November 6, 2008 at 4:45 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
methusla (anonymous) says...
May I propose a question to Prof. Terrell or anyone else whom may have an answer.
If a person is of mixed blood, say black and caucasian and that person happens to have the skin color and physical features of the caucasian, then would they be considered to be black or caucasian and if that person had the skin color and physical featuresof a black person would they then be considered to be black or caucasian, I am confused about all this and have been for some time now.
Since my fathers family's blood is Native American and my mothers family's blood is French Canadian, does this make me French Canadian or Native American, I would like to know, since the off-spring of the union of any Native American and any other ethnic people were called half-breeds and are still considered half breeds.
As far as I am concerned all this Broo-Haw, Haw about skin color, physical features, being African-American, Mexican-American, etc. is simply rediculous, if you love this country and want the right thing done for this country, then you should be proud to think of yourselves simply as "AMERICANS" and should want what is best for all "AMERICANS" and it should not make any difference what color of skin the President has, as long as he does what is right and beneficial for all "AMERICANS".
Even though I may be considered a half-breed by some, I consider myself, first and foremost an "AMERICAN" and I don't care what color the President of the U.S. happens to be or if he is the first black or whatever color President, as long as he does what's best for AMERICA and all "AMERICANS".
November 7, 2008 at 8:43 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
momus (anonymous) says...
I think the "black" issue is even more important internationally than it is inside the US. Remeber, a good portion of the rest of the world still divides themselves by ethnic classification or religion, walling themselves off from anyone that looks differently or thinks differently than they do. Those that wish that for the United States are dwindling in numbers, and a good portion of the rest of the world wonders how we do what we do. Different races, religions and people of different genders working together to make a country and an economy run? The ability to rise to the highest levels of success within our nation regardless of your background or biology? Those are things that many nations can only dream of, and they are reasons why this nation is still the greatest on earth. People searching for the fufillment of a common ideal, even when we disagree on the path to get there, is the common thread that binds us together.
November 7, 2008 at 9:38 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
latenighttips (Stephanie Ventura) says...
I personally thought the article was interesting. Maybe because I had never heard any of that before.
November 7, 2008 at 10:33 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Robert5000 (anonymous) says...
Barack Obama is a biracial man, having received 50% of his DNA from his “white” American mother and 50% of his DNA from his “black” African father. Of course, Barack Obama looks more like his father than his mother because for unknown reasons the part of DNA that controls skin color, hair type, and other characteristics of physical appearance is generally more dominant in “black” DNA than in “white” DNA.
His father was very intelligent and passed that potential along to his son through the part of his DNA that directs brain building. His mother was also intelligent and half of her son’s brain building DNA came from her. Barack Obama barely knew his father who left when Barack was 2 years old. Young Barack was raised and nurtured primarily by his mother and his maternal grandparents, and he received a first rate education.
Perhaps the example of Barack Obama will help the human race begin to fully understand that each of has a new combination of parental DNA, our own DNA, whose brain building capability is independent of whatever characteristics of physical appearance other parts of that DNA happen to produce; and once built, that new human brain, in combination with the nurturing, education, and experience it receives, develops functional capabilities that are also independent of whatever characteristics of physical appearance one’s DNA produces.
In short, the quality of the brain building DNA provided by one’s parents matters; nurturing, education, and experience matter; but characteristics of physical appearance produced by other parts of one’s DNA are unrelated to the ultimate functional capabilities of one’s brain. They don’t matter.
Since President elect Obama received 50% of his DNA from his “white” American mother and 50% of his DNA from his “black” African father, it is inappropriate to call him “the first black president of America” simply because he looks more like his father than his mother. But having a “black African father and a “white” American mother clearly qualifies Barack Obama to be appropriately called the first African American president.
November 7, 2008 at 5:23 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Bjnemp (anonymous) says...
What a crock. And people wonder why there is so much racial division in our country. Why do we insist on putting a label on ever American? We are either Americans, or we are something else.
If you are a citizen of Mexico and in America, you are not an American. You you are a Mexican. If you are from Africa and visiting America, you are an African. You are either an American or you are something else. You can't be both. Once you are born here and become a naturalized citizen, or later apply for citizenship and take the oath, you are an American. Until then, you are a Mexican, an Australian, a Greek, an Italian, or Japanese, Chlnese, etc.
Barack Obama is not an African-American. He is an American, period. He has no allegiance to Africa; only to America. And don't call me an Irish-American; I am an American. And don't call my friend in Manhattan an Ethopian-American. He is as red-blooded an American as you or me who happened to be born in Ethopia. My neighbor is not an El Salvadoran-American. He is an American who was born in El Salvador.
And there are no disabled-Americans, obese-Americans, mentally challenged-Americans, rich-Americans, poor-Americans, homely-Americans, or incredibly beautiful and shapely-Americans. Well, there are: but we don't call them that! They are just Americans: our brothers and sisters.
We are all Americans. I guarantee you that the soldier under fire in Iraq doesn't give a damn if his buddy covering his backside is African-American, Italian-American, or Mexican-American. He just cares that he is an American, is brave, can shoot straight, and is willing to give his life to protect him and his country.
We need to dump the hyphenated divisive labeling crap. If you are an American citizen, you are an American. Otherwise, you are Africans, Mexicans, Italians, or Swedes who happen to be visiting our country.
We can only pledge allegiance to one flag at a time. United we stand, divided we fall. Stop dividing us with the labeling hyphens.
November 21, 2008 at 7:11 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
admireed (anonymous) says...
Geez...you just shattered the the most important thing in education diversity...whatever that is.
November 21, 2008 at 9:55 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
LifeGoesOn (anonymous) says...
Bjnemp, I agree with about half your post,We are either Americans, or we are something else. but I do think there are disabled-Americans, obese-Americans, mentally challenged-Americans, rich-Americans, poor-Americans, homely-Americans, or incredibly beautiful and shapely-Americans, curley headed Americans, Blue eyed Americans, Low life Americans, etc,etc.
The biggest reason I believe we use African American or mexican American or whatever is because it's easier to understand what someone is talking about, an example would be, A man robbed me and I have a group of 12 men to find him in and need your help, he is 5 ft 7" tall, dark skin,brown eyes,
the group has 3 "African Americans", 3 mexican Americans,3 Chinese Americans, and 3 Irish Americans.
looks as if the guy I am looking for could be 9 of the 12 men doesnt it, But if I had said, it was a Mexican American that had robbed me, the group drops down to a possible three men. Easier.
November 22, 2008 at 4:52 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
create (anonymous) says...
This can become a real can of worms. "American" relates to national identity. Then there's ethnicity or ancestry. For the sake of science, here's a real interesting explanation:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_g...
November 22, 2008 at 7:52 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Weltha (anonymous) says...
lol just being funny hear, life but... In your scenario did you stop him (in the middle of being robbed) and ask if he was mexican-american or just just plain mexican?! Was he here legally or not? Chances are if he was robbing you the latter is true.
November 23, 2008 at 10:35 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
LifeGoesOn (anonymous) says...
weltha, either way, the scenario is the same.
November 23, 2008 at 10:02 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Weltha (anonymous) says...
ok George lol! Just trying to lighten a conversation that is moot any way. Have a great day.
November 24, 2008 at 8:56 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
neighbor (anonymous) says...
I was sent an email forward this morning from someone who thought it would be clever if Bush resigned before the end of the year, making Cheney the President. Then the author suggested Cheney should appoint Condi Rice as VP, then resign himself. This would make Rice the first black President as well as the first female President to steal Obama's place in history.
November 29, 2008 at 3:08 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
MarMatthias (anonymous) says...
It matters because not recognizing the previous black presidents is undermining the rich and diverse history blacks have contributed to this nation. It would be far better to portray Obama for what he is, the sixth or seventh black president, and draw from the many important milestones set forth by his predecessors. Each of the five/six black president are, and will continue to be, heroes recorded in history for their accomplishments and achievements. Because of the liberal mud machine, Obama will never truly be able to claim the great history the previous five/six black presidents have to offer. Instead, the liberals would rather deny the black citizens of this nation the history that is rightly theirs and something to be truly proud of.
January 18, 2009 at 5:24 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )