Posted by cookatwork (anonymous) on July 1, 2008 at 6:38 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Why were these kids even out at that time of the day? Doesn't Emporia have a curfew and if not, why not?

Posted by TacoBellB (anonymous) on July 2, 2008 at 8:08 a.m. (Suggest removal)

13, 14 and 16 year olds out at 2:20 AM?! Where the heck are the parents?! Would a city curfew even help if the parents aren't willing to do their job and make sure their kids aren't out doing this stuff?

Posted by Bjnemp (anonymous) on July 2, 2008 at 8:29 a.m. (Suggest removal)

This story is merely a reflection of what is seriously wrong in our nation today: parents who have no clue how to parent. We have children running wild at all hours of the night, selling and doing drugs, stealing, assaulting people, joining gangs, and why? Because they have no guidance or discipline at home. Don't get me wrong, these kids are idiots and need to be harshly punished, but someone needs to look into their home life, too. I suspect the apple didn't fall far from the tree.

Posted by madpoet (anonymous) on July 2, 2008 at 9:23 a.m. (Suggest removal)

This kind of stuff went on 20 years ago when I was a teenager. I think it is worse now since too many parents want to be their child's friend rather than parent. Kids need firm boundaries set and punishment when they cross them. Laws today are lax and often applied unevenly. Look at all the celebrities in the news who get a slap on the wrist for repeated DUIs or breaking parole. What message does that send kids? Everyone needs to wake up and pay attention to what their kids are doing and who they run around with.

Posted by bamm_momma (anonymous) on July 2, 2008 at 10:47 p.m. (Suggest removal)

could these be the same ones that broke into the zoo or set fires recently?

Posted by peanutbutter (anonymous) on July 3, 2008 at 12:05 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I am not sticking up for these kids and I certainly don't condone anything that they are doing, but we can't assume their parents are to blame. When I was that age "sneaking out" was the "thing to do". The whole point of "sneaking out" is to NOT get caught. Then again maybe it was just parents who let their children run wild???

Posted by apsuz (anonymous) on July 3, 2008 at 2:55 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I think that giving parents back the right to be a parent and discipline the children without fear of facing criminal charges or having the children removed would make a world of difference. There are too many kids running around that have respect for no one. I find it hard to blame the parents when if you speak to your child in the wrong tone of voice, say the wrong thing or God forbid, you spank the child (I'm not talking about beating the daylights out of them, just a swat on the bottom), the child can run to any other adult and yell "abuse". Children are taught this from when they first start school, and they know how to use it to their advantage. Children need to be taught to respect others and their property, and sometimes it takes a little more than a sweet-voiced, "Honey, you can't sneak out at night and steal cars, why don't you stay home and play Grand Theft Auto or some other violent video game instead."

Posted by siamesefred (anonymous) on July 3, 2008 at 7:21 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I'm not saying that nondivorced parents are perfect... but I have friends who are step-parents and child discipline is a really sore subject. Some biological parents won't let the new spouse discipline the child. Kids know how to work the situation.

Geez, my parents never divorced and I knew how to play mom against dad all the time. Imagine if you have leverage behind you (I'll go live with dad; reporting the step-parent to the authorities, etc)

Posted by slipandslide (anonymous) on July 3, 2008 at 9:45 a.m. (Suggest removal)

aspuz you make sense kids need disipline and if they dont learn it while they are young its very hard to make them follow the rules when they are older.

Posted by Penny (anonymous) on July 3, 2008 at 9:54 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Parents and other adults in the community need to start by setting better examples for children, including obeying ordinances you don't agree with. Remember that tomorrow. It seems hypocrital to moan about kids today having no respect for authority in the same breath as saying, "I'm going to shoot fireworks 'cause the law is stupid and there's nothing you can do about it".

Posted by Bjnemp (anonymous) on July 3, 2008 at 11:42 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Apsuz: You are SO right! I don't remember getting spanked more than two or three times as a child but the constant fear of it kept me walking the straight and narrow. The looming prospect of a spanking, paired with strong and on-going lectures on right and wrong, moral and immoral, ensured my parents never once received a call concerning my behavior from a parent, a teacher, or the law. It's all about strong parenting, and an occassional swat on the butt, when behavior dictates, is part of it.

Posted by Bjnemp (anonymous) on July 3, 2008 at 11:50 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Good point, Penny. Because we obey the law, and because the ban on fireworks is a "stupid" law, my family will be leaving town tomorrow to celebrate the Fourth and shoot fireworks. We will spend a few hundred dollars on fireworks---elsewhere---and a considerable amount of money on food and entertainment---elsewhere---and buy gasoline---elsewhere---and then return to Emporia.

The ban on Independence Day fireworks is, as you said, "stupid" and is going to cost our city a great deal of money: money they claim is badly needed. Smart move, Emporia.

Posted by Weltha (anonymous) on July 3, 2008 at 12:06 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Bjnemp- Sounds like we were raised by the same family. I totally relate to your post July 3rd at 11:42 am. My children get the same as I did. So far KNock on wood they aren't in and out trouble.

Posted by siamesefred (anonymous) on July 3, 2008 at 1:26 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Kstre— as long as you pick up your trash afterward, I'd be delighted if you came to my part of the county to shoot off your display. I'll even sit in my yard and enjoy it!

When we shoot off in the driveway, I turn in a circle and catch displays on the horizon in all directions.

Posted by kansaslady (anonymous) on July 3, 2008 at 9 p.m. (Suggest removal)

and now for the rest of the story...the resident who came upon the auto burglary on Friday evening and chased and detained one of the 3 young men that had trashed the inside of his vehicle will not get any help in replacing the dash and wiring that was ripped out of the vehicle. Plus once the young men were released from the police they returned and broke out every window in the vehicle- which also will not be paid for by the young men or there families. The police commended him on getting involved and helping them out and I am proud of him too, but where is the justice in all of this for him?

Posted by LifeGoesOn (anonymous) on July 3, 2008 at 10:22 p.m. (Suggest removal)

In 1998, one-third of all victims of violent crime were teenagers ages 12-19. Almost 50% of all violent crimes were committed by persons under the age of 25. Homicide was the second leading cause of deaths for 15-24 year olds. In 2006, 1,539 murder victims were under the age of 18. Those committing homicide, 1,111 were offenders under the age of 18. 15% of all arrests in 2006 were done to individuals under the age of 18.

We hear in the news daily how the percentages of crimes in our youth is dramatically increasing. It is not unfamiliar to hear a headline of a shooting death of teens or of a teen assault. Let's look at the numbers again, according to the U.S. Justice department in 1998 50% of all violent crimes were committed by young people, yet in 2006 only 15% of ALL arrests (including violent and non violent crimes) was of those under 18. Is that a dramatic increase. Many politicians and news media are obsessed with crime committed by teens. In reality crime statistics show that the youth of today are not any more criminally inclined than in previous generations. But think about it, what sells better - number of crime victims or number of youth volunteers. In actuality, youth felony crimes over the past 20 years have been on the decline while rates for those over the age of 30 have increased.

The numbers are available for anyone to look at through either the U.S. Justice Department Website or through the Federal Bureau of Investigations website. In the 1990's the teen population was increasing just as fast as the general population was. The popular myth that as the teen population increases so does crime is false. It is just a myth.

In today's society we read sensationalized headlines like the Jenna 6 case. It makes for good TV. It sells newspapers. Teens choosing to do positive things in the community does not sell and ends up either in the corner of page 20 of the newspaper of worse yet in the "if we need a filler" pile. How do I know this, I submit articles on a regular basis to the news media - all of a positive nature. I asked editors why they choose one article over another. "To make a clear cut statement - we print what sells not what is nice to read."

So who is to blame? The media? Or those buying into the headlines?

Something to think about the next time you read about teen statistics.

Posted by justthefacts (anonymous) on July 4, 2008 at 3:51 a.m. (Suggest removal)

There is a victims coordinator with the county attorney's office. Victims of crime can coordinate with that office to work to have the court order restitution or additional sanctions as a result of loss of property or damage. There is a process for a victim to seek restitution if they so desire. Hopefully the judge and prosecutor in this case will hold those accountable for their actions. The only other recourse is to go ofter the violators or the families in civil court.

Posted by create (anonymous) on July 4, 2008 at 7:19 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Good comment, Justthefacts. We don't always remember the services of the county attorney's office. I hope the young man who got his car trashed will seek those services and be able to provide evidence because I can just hear the "not me" excuses now.

I'm guessing that those kids were released to their parents. However, until we move to hold parents accountable for the activities of their children, we are losing the battle. How to make parents truly accountable? Aside from fines, I don't have that answer. Perhaps others do.

We used to have a Lyon County Youth Center here. Perhaps building another, with classrooms this time, would not be a bad idea. It would be income producing when other counties send their juvenile delinquents for a big kid time out.

Posted by neighbor (anonymous) on July 4, 2008 at 8:53 a.m. (Suggest removal)

My children learned the meaning of no and what brought them a swat on the butt at a very young age. Both of my kids are self confident, goal oriented, straight A students, are active in school sports and activities, are officers in student government, and are well aware the differences between right and wrong. They also know the consequences they would be subject to if they commit crimes. The claim that you can't discipline your child is just that, an excuse. A swat on the butt is not child abuse. IMO, people who say they can't spank their children, only use that as an excuse to keep from having to be the disciplinarian they don't have the backbone to be. Parents that use fly swatters, big wooden paddles, yard sticks or other material objects to spank with, slap across the face or punch with a closed fist leaving welts, bruises etc, now that's a different story and should be reported as child abuse. Most kids out causing trouble lack stability at home. Their parents are trying to be their friend, are too lazy to get involved, or they simply cannot be bothered by properly raising their child. I'm betting the kids in this report were or are being raised by parents that were the same way when they were young, allowed to come and go as they pleased, and allowed to do much more than they should have been. I worked in law enforcement for nine years. The majority(95% or better) of the juvenile criminals I dealt with came from disfunctional families and very liberal households. Their parents often had criminal records and or anti-establishment/rules/laws attitudes. Alcohol and narcotic abuse were common within their households. Most of the kids I dealt with were capable of being good productive citizens had they been raised in a better environment.

The entry by Bjnemp at the top of the page was dead on.

Posted by apsuz (anonymous) on July 4, 2008 at 11:37 a.m. (Suggest removal)

"The claim that you can't discipline your child is just that, an excuse. A swat on the butt is not child abuse."

I'm sorry, but if you have ever had any involvement with social services/child protective services/mental health in regards to children, you would know otherwise. A child can run and tell authorities whatever they want, and they know how to twist your words to make it look like when all you intended was a little swat on the butt, you really meant that you where going to whip their poor little behind until it was red and bleeding, even if you never even went through with the swat. You even have to be careful how you talk to your children. I understand and have no problem in that you should tell your children they are stupid, ungrateful, worthless, never going to be anything, etc. But sometimes all the positive reinforcement and giving options (instead of hitting your sister when you are mad, give her a hug) isn't going to do the trick. How is "time out" going to work, if you can't get your child to sit still for even half a minute without holding them down (and God forbid they tell anyone that, because by holding them you can be charged with abuse). Send them to their room? Of course, let them go play with their toys and read their books when they are in trouble. I have personally seen how easy it is for children to yell "abuse" when none is taking place, even to the point of parents being acused of starving their children because the child doesn't want to eat what he/she was offered. So again, I have to disagree with saying that "The claim that you can't discipline your child is just that, an excuse."

As far as following the rules and laws, that's a given. Children learn best by example, and far too many parents don't realize how much the children are paying attention. There are things that are ok for adults and not for children, but it's better not to do these things in front of the children (better yet, not do them at all if possible) so the parent's don't have to use "Do as I say, not as I do." If you don't agree with a rule or law, first find out the reason behind it. If you still don't agree, take the proper route to get it changed instead of just not obeying it, especially in front of the children.

Posted by Bjnemp (anonymous) on July 4, 2008 at 12:31 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Apsuz: If you let your children control your life and behavior by using fear tactics such as threats to report you to police or child services, you are WAY too late to start disciplining them. They are already corrupted and out of control if they have that much power over you. Spare the rod, spoil the child. I would rather raise children with an occassional red mark on their butts than ones with police records and drug habits.

Posted by Bjnemp (anonymous) on July 4, 2008 at 12:41 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Weltha/Neighbor: Sounds like we have all swatted a butt when necessary. I suspect we also have loving, well-adjusted, moral, productive, educated, law-abiding kids. Ooops! Do I see a correlation there? Discipline produces good kids? Could be.

Posted by jayhawker (anonymous) on July 4, 2008 at 1:34 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Amen, Bjnemp. The correlation is nearly 100%, and has been over the generations.

Posted by LifeGoesOn (anonymous) on July 4, 2008 at 5:16 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Opposition to parents spanking their children has been growing significantly in elite circles over the past 15 years.No doubt much of this opposition springs from a sincere concern for the well-being of children. Child abuse is a reality, and stories of child abuse are horrifying. But while loving and effective discipline is quite definitely not harsh and abusive, neither is it weak and ineffectual. Indeed, disciplinary spanking can fall well within the boundaries of loving discipline and need not be labeled abusive violence.

According to a recent Voter/Consumer Research poll commissioned by the Family Research Council, 76 percent of the more than 1,000 Americans surveyed said that spanking was an effective form of discipline in their home when they were children. These results are made all the more impressive by the fact that nearly half of those who answered otherwise grew up in homes in which they were never spanked. Taken together, more than four out of five Americans who were actually spanked by their parents as children say that it was an effective form of discipline.

In addition, Americans perceive lack of discipline to be the biggest problem in public education today, according to a recent Gallup poll. Several studies show strong public support for corporal punishment by parents.
Critics claim that spanking a child is abusive and contributes to adult dysfunction. These allegations arise from studies that fail to distinguish appropriate spanking from other forms of punishment. Abusive forms of physical punishment such as kicking, punching, and beating are commonly grouped with mild spanking. Furthermore, the studies usually include, and even emphasize, corporal punishment of adolescents, rather than focusing on preschool children, where spanking is more effective. This blurring of distinctions between spanking and physical abuse, and between children of different ages, gives critics the illusion of having data condemning all disciplinary spanking.

There are several arguments commonly leveled against disciplinary spanking. Interestingly, most of these arguments can be used against other forms of discipline. Any form of discipline (time-out, restriction, etc.), when used inappropriately and in anger, can result in distorting a child's perception of justice and harming his emotional development.
The subject of disciplinary spanking should be evaluated from a factual and philosophical perspective. It must be distinguished from abusive, harmful forms of corporal punishment. Appropriate disciplinary spanking can play an important role in optimal child development, There is no evidence that mild spanking is harmful.
Indeed, spanking is supported by history, research, and a majority of primary care physicians.

Posted by neighbor (anonymous) on July 4, 2008 at 11:35 p.m. (Suggest removal)

apsuz, yes I have had involvement with SRS/Mental Health etc concerning children welfare and quite frankly was not impressed with either. In fact, I have little respect for their agenda/services, especially how they are allowed to carry out intervention seperating children from their parents prior to their cases being proven true and factual. The State of Texas and it's citizens are going to pay dearly for similar actions taken by the SRS of Texas when they took all of those children out of the religious compound.

Bjnemp, I didn't have to do it many times. My parents did the same with me as a kid. I hope my kids do the same with my grandkids. Correlation indeed.

Posted by apsuz (anonymous) on July 5, 2008 at 3:20 a.m. (Suggest removal)

There are some cases where children are taught respect and discipline from a very young age, but sometimes it just doesn't work and the child becomes does not act as he/she has been taught. In the situation above, I was actually referring to a case that I am aware of involving a family with several children. One of the children had behavioral problems, although exposed to the exact same environment as the others, and as soon as this child was taught in pre-school that abuse could be used as a tool to get what the child wanted, this child started using it to their advantage. Yes, in preschool. These were children that not only were taught respect and manners in the home, they were actively involved in church and volunteer activites. Needless to say, because this child somehow learned to "use the system", all of the children where removed from the home before a thorough investigation. I'm sure you also know at least one family where, no matter how loving and structured the environment, no matter how disciplined (regardless of what method), when there are siblings they don't always end up with the same values and ideals and therefore end up living completely different lifestyles as adults. I'm no professional in this field, but their is obviously something that causes people to learn and absorb information differently, and therefore act differently. The sad thing is that sometimes when parents seek help with their out of control children, the don't get the help they need and the children often either get worse and don't become successful adults or are removed from the home (which sometimes is not the best thing to do). It would be nice if Child Protective Services (just using a general name, I know it's SRS in Kansas) would do more investigation and assist with keeping the children in the home. What is really sad is that in the case I spoke of earlier, there was a family that lived near the one above where the parents were drunk and using drugs nearly everyday, not making much of an attempt to find and keep employment of any kind and the children in that home where constantly being told how bad they where, but do you think CPS ever came knocking on their door? As far as I know, that family is still in tact, while the other family is struggling to get over their situation and move on. Sorry for rambling, but when it comes to children, discipline and behavior, I have some very strong opinions because I have seen too many families torn apart for no good reason when they could have easily resolved the problems with a little help, while children who are regularly suffering various forms of abuse, filthy homes (not just "cluttered", but dirty, filled with trash and sometimes animal waste, moldy dishes in the sink, etc) and lack of structure are left to remain in these sickening environments.

Posted by USNretired (anonymous) on July 5, 2008 at 10:17 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Children have to learn when they are small, by the teenage years you are not teaching as much as fighting with them. A child's moral character is well formed by 6 or 7, and that is what will be their conscience or moral compass for the rest of their lives. That is why 50 years ago (less moving around by families) everybody felt like neighbors were just extended family. Everybody pretty much shared the same moral compass. Only careful parenting of small children ensures a better future, before they start school they need to know right from wrong, or they will never know it. Cultures each have their own mores, and Emporia is a diverse place, so now we lock our doors and look to see who or what our dogs are barking at. Worse yet is children that "raise" themselves with no concept of right or wrong other than their own likes and dislikes. These kids will have to make an effort not to do wrong things until they form the habit of being honest people.

Posted by neighbor (anonymous) on July 5, 2008 at 11:41 a.m. (Suggest removal)

"and as soon as this child was taught in pre-school that abuse could be used as a tool to get what the child wanted, this child started using it to their advantage."

That statement is a good example of why I lack respect for the SRS and Mental Health agenda/services.

Have you ever considered how crime has increased nearly every year, prison populations have exploded, how many kids are being diagnosed and treated for ADD, all since agencies like SRS and Mental Health have became involved with the court system? Talk about correlation. They have done good for kids that are being found in dire living conditions, yes, but they have created job security for themselves as well by interjecting themselves into situations that they have no business being involved in.

Posted by kansaslady (anonymous) on July 5, 2008 at 4:24 p.m. (Suggest removal)

justthefacts; The resident has been in touch with the victims coordinator with the county attorney's office, and was told that probably nothing will be paid for because they were children, it will be sent to the court for consideration.

Posted by justthefacts (anonymous) on July 5, 2008 at 11:32 p.m. (Suggest removal)

They should look at restitution through the parents then. Hopefully the parents have homeowners insurance that may cover the damage. If not, the kids can work off the costs doing yard work, cleaning or even having to at least make a public apology. If they are over 12, they can be charged as juveniles I believe. Hopefully there will at least be some accountability and punishment.

Posted by jayhawker (anonymous) on July 6, 2008 at 12:09 a.m. (Suggest removal)

We are not doing our children a favor by sparing discipline. It is ironic that given a permissive society, where there are no absolutes and no right or wrong, that discipline has fallen by the way at a time when it is more needed than ever. We desperately need to return to our heritage where families mattered, where families were proud of their names and worked everyday at seeing that their names stood for honor and sacrifice, which they passed on to their children. We need to return to a time when families were proud of their sons who wore the uniform of their country or who became Priests or Ministers. Instead, we are reaping the fruits of the Pepsi generation, where all that mattered was Me. It is no surprise that we have a presidential candidate who was abandoned by his father, and eventually by his mother, given that it has been about 40 years since this all started. No wonder that that same presidential candidate's wife (also a product of the Pepsi generation) is not proud of her country and no wonder that that presidential candidate subscribes to an anti-American religious philosophy (liberation theology) given that he never had the benefit of what family can instill in a child. It is a tribute to him that he is not in prison instead of seeking high political office given where he came from. We, as a nation, need to return to our roots before we rot from within.

Posted by create (anonymous) on July 6, 2008 at 9:31 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Justthefacts, yes, you made a viable comment. "... the kids can work off the costs doing yard work, cleaning or even having to at least make a public apology."

I especially like the idea of working off the costs by doing something like yardwork because they are capable of doing such work. And it should be hard work too, not just picking up trash. There's nothing wrong with hard work; in rural communities, boys that age are working hay. In fact, maybe if these kids did more physical labor and less video games and other such entertainment they wouldn't have the energy left to run all over town in the middle of the night.

I'm afraid we will never see a public apology because these boys are juveniles and their identity is protected. Besides, making an apology would require some sense of shame and I'm afraid these kids haven't the slightest idea what that is.

I wonder what would happen if there was a trial or hearing and the whole town showed up to quietly demonstrate their irritation. Pie in the sky, yes, but I'd sure like to participate.

Imagine what it must feel like for that man to have his car vandalized like it was. As if money isn't tight enough, now he is stuck fixing his own car. It makes me angry to even say that.

Posted by USNretired (anonymous) on July 6, 2008 at 10:13 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Maybe those kids can do lawn work for folks whose yards are ticketed and their wages be paid in restitution, then allow them to keep what they earn beyond that. Work ethics must be learned sooner rather than later or we create ongoing burdens to society. I wish the court had corporal punishment as an option, along with public service, but the parents would probably get a free lawyer to fight any disciplinary action, as they seemingly prefer their children to act this way. We use to get kids like this sent to military service and have to straighten them out, if possible. They use up a lot of time and effort, some don't even seem to understand what they are doing wrong since they are simply emulating their "parents". Others just end up DD and go back to whatever they did before.