City acts to limit sign number for business clusters
By Joey Berlin
Originally published 11:24 a.m., January 3, 2008
Updated 11:24 a.m., January 3, 2008
A sign of a more attractive business parcel, or a sign of city regulation overkill? Either way, you’ll only get one.
The Emporia City Commission approved a modification to the Emporia-Lyon County Metropolitan Planning Area Zoning Regulations which changes the number of pole signs allowed on each business parcel. Now, instead of allowing one pole sign for each business located on a parcel, the regulations will allow just one pole sign per parcel.
Commissioners Jeff Longbine and Bobbie Agler were dissenting votes in the 3-2 decision. A vote on the issue had been tabled at the commission’s action meeting two weeks before.
Longbine restated an objection to the proposed ordinance that he had expressed in the past: the potential for hampering certain single businesses.
“I like the many-shopping-center districts, combining those into one sign,” he said. “But I do think this becomes much more restrictive on single businesses with large parcels with multiple entrances. ... There’s multiple of those around town, and I think maybe we’ve gone too far.”
Agler said he had similar concerns and mentioned the Board of Zoning Appeals process that would be required of businesses that want approval for more than one sign. He said he had never gone through that appeals process, but understood from people who had that it wasn’t “particularly enjoyable.”
Commissioner Jim Kessler said the intent of the ordinance was to regulate strip malls “that could legally put up 10 different signs on there. So I think we need to start somewhere. If we find this is a problem, I think we can readdress it again.”
Agler responded, “My concern is that — and I agree with you to a point — but if our problem is with multi-business areas like a mall, then that’s what it should address, not the entire population (of businesses).
“This gets every single business in town, regardless of how big or how little is, and all we were going after is malls.”
Agler added that regulating mall pole signs made sense to him, “instead of the government coming in and (doing) a big overkill. ... ”
As the discussion progressed, Commissioner Kevin Nelson and Mayor Julie Johnson joined Kessler in supporting the ordinance. Johnson said the Planning Commission’s approval was significant because it deals with issues like this one regularly. Johnson said she felt the ordinance addressed what it needed to.
In answering a question from Longbine, Planning Commission Secretary Kevin Hanlin confirmed that existing businesses that already had multiple pole signs would be grandfathered in.
In other business Wednesday, commissioners:
• Approved the establishment of a Multi-Use Path Planning Committee that will study possible routes for connecting the community through paths for bike travel and other uses. The new committee will choose its own members and bylaws, with the city engineer acting as staff liaison.
• Approved a resolution supporting the development of affordable housing at Broadview Towers, 110 West 6th Avenue. Broadview Towers, based in Dallas, has retained the services of Investment Resources Corp., a Wichita company, to engineer improvements to Broadview Towers. The company plans to submit an application for tax credits for senior housing.
• Approved Mayor Julie Johnson to sign the city’s flood-plain management ordinance, the same as the standard flood-plain ordinance used by the state.
• Awarded to Longbine Auto Plaza the bid to furnish two new city police department vehicles. With a $5,000 allowance deducted for trading in three old police vehicles, the package bid price for the two new vehicles combined comes to $34,580. Longbine and Agler abstained from the discussion and vote because of their conflicts of interest.
• Tabled the consideration of board appointments to the Planning Commission and Building Trades Board until Jan. 16, with plans to include a discussion of city board appointments on the agenda for the Jan. 9 work session.
• Listened to City Manager Matt Zimmerman’s report on city activities. Zimmerman participated in a kickoff conference call Wednesday morning with representatives of Buxton, the Fort Worth, Texas-based customer analytics group that will perform a retail development study commissioned by the city. He said the Buxton report is scheduled to be completed on March 3.
Comments
We allow registered users to post comments on this Web site. To learn more about our posting policies please read our User Poster Agreement Policy.
Posted by citizenT (anonymous) on January 3, 2008 at 5:38 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Longbine Auto Plaza gets the bid...no conflict of interest?
Posted by emporian (anonymous) on January 3, 2008 at 6:02 p.m. (Suggest removal)
yep
Posted by slipandslide (anonymous) on January 3, 2008 at 6:04 p.m. (Suggest removal)
the signs on industrial road are distracting for some folks, so im glad to see a limit to the number of signs, its easier to read a big sign than to read each stores sign.
Posted by slipandslide (anonymous) on January 3, 2008 at 6:07 p.m. (Suggest removal)
the city trades three cars in xchange for two, so that way longbine can sell them the third one they need later huh?
Posted by siamesefred (anonymous) on January 4, 2008 at 6:49 a.m. (Suggest removal)
If both Longbine and Agler abstained from the decision, citing conflicts, I would assume that Emporia Motors also submitted a bid.
Posted by landofoz (anonymous) on January 4, 2008 at 8:46 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I think that more businesses should put up led signs like Sonic has. It looks really nice and reminds me of all the signs in Vegas. But I guess since all of the businesses are closing on 6th in favor of moving to the West side of town it doesn't really matter anyhow.
Posted by create (anonymous) on January 4, 2008 at 9:26 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I wonder where the multi-use path will begin. My bet is on the northwest.
Posted by emporian (anonymous) on January 4, 2008 at 9:28 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I apologize, rbradford was logged in on the computer I was using, so that message was mine. Again I apologize to rbradford. I forgot to make sure I was the one logged in.
Posted by Hillbilly (anonymous) on January 4, 2008 at 10:11 a.m. (Suggest removal)
create, it amazed me that somehow, this guy seems to think that emporia has the money to spend on a path, but the sidewalk in front of his house probably needs replaced, oh sorry, the NW folks dont usually have a sidewalk infront of their homes........................
Posted by jasonesu (anonymous) on January 4, 2008 at 11:07 a.m. (Suggest removal)
There might not be any sidewalks on the NW part of town, but i'll bet Zimmerman has a nice driveway and garage to park his Jaguar in. He must get paid good here to buy that car after he moved here.
Posted by dhcc66 (anonymous) on January 4, 2008 at 1 p.m. (Suggest removal)
somebody tell me something....if the police department can only get two cars instead of three...and they have to be OBVIOUSLY low bid...and the comissioners are starting to use the old excuse of how poor the city is....why is it that we are examining another costly beautification thing like the path? ????? tell me mr zimmerman, are you really different than our old city manager? or is it just that our comissioners don't see the need to follow the advice of somebody who knows what direction the city should go, and they just ignore you?
PS...nice move mr longbine...put line your pockets a little more at the expense of the citizens
Posted by neighbor (anonymous) on January 4, 2008 at 1:30 p.m. (Suggest removal)
The patrolcar prices are set by Ford, Chevy, and Dodge producers(if they even provided a bid)not by the local car dealerships. The local dealerships's only involvement in the process would be in providing a trade allowance on the used patrolcars which arent worth much when they are turned in. They are typically taken to auction to be quickly sold without further investment and loss. The new police car prices are considerably lower than if you or I went in and ordered the same car at retail, I'm talking $5000-$10,000 less.
Those of you thinking that Longbine or Agler are profitting from these purchases should know a little more about the process before making such accusations. They would probably be ahead financially by not even getting involved in the process to begin with.
Posted by dhcc66 (anonymous) on January 4, 2008 at 3:43 p.m. (Suggest removal)
so explain to me why the sheriff's department sometimes goes to other cities to get their patrol vehicles? or why there is a "bid" process at all? why not just let the city or county go to the dealers and say, "this is what we want, we'll take two because your price and your vehicle meet our requirements".
maybe YOU should get more information.....or check what the last bids submitted by other dealers were the last time the city or county took bids on vehicles. dealers in other cities were less as i remember.
yes i do know that there is an MSRP on all vehicles, but that doesn't mean the dealer has to follow that. ask anybody who has worked for a dealership
Posted by Hillbilly (anonymous) on January 4, 2008 at 4:26 p.m. (Suggest removal)
and also explain to me why, if the city has nothing to do with what the price of car is, why doesnt the city of emporia at least get a car that the over-sized cops can be comfortable in. Does this mean that the city pays a certain price and then longbine can sell the city a piece of crap for a cop car????
I, like dhcc would like you to explain more why the bidding does go on with the county when they need cop cars, somehow, once again its hard to believe that all that goes on within this city government is true..........
yep, lets have a path, lets hire someone out of state to tell us how much it will cost, and then lets travel to New york, or California , and don't forget to get tickets for the wives or girlfriends and as a committee, we can see what they did for a path, and then if no one is looking lets stop over in Vegas for a few hours of fun, the fools in emporia would never know we did....................signed.. the commissioners.......
Posted by neighbor (anonymous) on January 5, 2008 at 1:23 a.m. (Suggest removal)
First of all, I've never known the County to go out of town to get patrolcars, I'm not saying they haven't, but I've never heard of them doing that. Big cities get lower prices because they buy in volume, they get FLEET pricing. You won't get a big discount buying 2-5 vehicles. Perhaps the SO found a dealership that had left over fleet cars and took advantage of the savings, that's great if that happened. The City and County often work together on the process of getting bids for patrol vehicles. They submit specifications to the Dealerships for what they desire to have in a patrol vehicle, full size or medium, engine size, police package items, brake and cooler specs etc. The Dealerships forward the information to the Manufacturers, then establish their bid price on the trade in cars while they are awaiting the bid proposals. New car bids and trade in allowances are submitted to both commissions who review them and make their decision. Typically, they opt for the low new car bid with consideration of the trade in valuations. Sometimes, a commissioner may suggest taking the high bid due to personal experience with certain vehicle or from studying reports put out about the vehicles. They vote to finalize their decision, that's what we elect them to do, to make the decisions for us. Neither Longbine nor Agler, whose son runs a dealership, should have voted in the final decision, they didn't.
As for the size of patrol cars, have you seen many full sized cars offered lately? You can't take any car off the sales lot and make it a patrol car. Patrol vehicles have better brakes, better suspensions, expensive tires, added transmission and oil cooler to protect drive train components, larger charging systems for lights and radios, those kinds of things. For a long period of time, Ford was the only manufacturer offering a full sized rear wheel driven car after Chevy quit making the Caprice. Dodge bowed out of the Police Interceptor packages a long time ago. I'm glad to see the SO is now using trucks, back country roads are hard on cars, sometimes they need to be off-road as well.
Posted by dhcc66 (anonymous) on January 5, 2008 at 1:57 a.m. (Suggest removal)
wow. Neighbor. who did you talk to? or are you one of the car salesmen who hound me on saturday afternoons when i just want to browse? Do some research. I did.
Chevy stopped making a full sized Police Interceptor with the Caprice. The Impala is mid sized with a V6 and front wheel drive. It's called a "Police Package"...but...if you make it..you can name it.
Ford (Crown Vic) and Dodge (Charger) make V8 rear wheel drive Police Interceptor models. Ask Lyon County and the KHP why they don't buy Chevy.
By they way, the factory has NOTHING to do with pricing cars other than to set the MSRP. Dealers can go below it, they just don't like to.
If the city or county can get a better price by going to osage city or olathe...i say go for it. make the local dealers belly up. From what i understand, the locals don't take well to being outbid by outside dealerships and put the "Shop Emporia First" sign up when it comes to bids.
Posted by emporian (anonymous) on January 5, 2008 at 10:32 a.m. (Suggest removal)
And I know the cops hate those Impalas. Go do a ride with them, there is barely any room in that thing for the officer. I know many were hoping that they city would go with Ford and that the bid would be written so that Longbine couldn't sell them those little Impalas.
Posted by neighbor (anonymous) on January 5, 2008 at 11:10 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Nope not a car salesman, and the county and KHP buy Fords because they are full sized V8s. When the factory submits bids that are up to $10k below retail, I don't think that's out of line. The local dealers aren't there for their health and deserve to make something for their involvement/paperwork and time in the process. I really would rather they keep the money local in our economy before spending it else where to say pennies on such a purchase.
And no, I am not involved in the Government nor am I a business owner in Emporia that benefits from the process. I was a law enforcement officer at one time and took part in the bid process years ago so I have a little working knowledge of how it works. At that time, only Ford and Chevy offered Police Packages, I wanted the Chevy, but Ford had the best offer so they chose the Fords. The county and KHP go with the full sized Fords because the smaller cars do not last as well when driven longer distances, and on rougher roads.
Try going in and observing the process in person instead of doing internet research. I think you'll find that everything the city and county does is documented in triplicate and all of it is accessible if you ask to see how your money is spent..
Posted by dhcc66 (anonymous) on January 5, 2008 at 4:03 p.m. (Suggest removal)
ok neighbor, what makes you think that i did internet research? some of us actually watch the process in person and on TV when they televise the process. from what i've seen, the low bid ALMOST always wins no matter what the product.
and, since you are a former police officer, how did you feel about having nothing but low bid, or at least mostly low bid. i think if my life were on the line, i would want the best we could afford, even if it means taking a few less cars, which it looks like they are already doing.
i have a few friends in iraq, and they have had to dig into their own pockets to provide the best equipment for themselves because the government won't do it for them.....sometimes they survive only because their families in the US send them better body armor or better equipment.
i guess the bottom line is... are our men and women on the front lines ANYWHERE worth the best money can buy? or are they disposable like the vehicles they seem to be getting? please tell me their lives are worth it.
Posted by neighbor (anonymous) on January 5, 2008 at 11:21 p.m. (Suggest removal)
The car I drove was top of line, I'd say it was better than the more expensive Chevy that I desired. None of those Caprices bought then are still on the road. Ford was the low bid, and the best trade in value, that's why I ended up in one. If the Cities and County had taken the higher bid, the crowd on the opposite side of the aisle would be screaming conspiracy that they were favoring the other guys. I got the best car we could afford, it was within our projected equipment budget and I was darn glad to get it. The car we traded in was so bad that I had to jump start it part of the time just to get it out of the driveway, the transmission was shot, and top speed was 58 mph if there was no wind. The bid price was good enough to properly equip the new car with a new light bar, radios, and other necessary accessories. The new car I drove had a nice interior, good ac and heat, everything worked excellent, the motor ran strong, it had power everything. I drove it 70,000 before I left the job, never once having a problem with it. The car was a tool in my work, it did not define my job nor make me any safer.
Yes, I think our Soldiers in Iraq and in any over seas duty should be adequately supplied and protected. The law enforcement in this county are not deprived when it comes to proper vehicles.
Posted by neighbor (anonymous) on January 6, 2008 at 5:08 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I left law enforcement because of the low pay and lack of benefits where I worked. I could not afford to raise a family nor do the things I wanted to do on the pay. You'll find that alot of your Emporia Police Officers and Firemen have second or third jobs to get by on. Those folks put their lives on the line for you for rediculously low wages. There are Police Departments in the area that only pay $6-$10 for patrolmen, would you do the job for that? I could have taken a part time minimum wage job, stayed home with my kids instead of having them in daycare(I had to be available 24-7), and would have been ahead.
Posted by slipandslide (anonymous) on January 6, 2008 at 10:19 p.m. (Suggest removal)
who pays those low wages? i see emporia police make 10 - 14 an hour, not alot
Posted by neighbor (anonymous) on January 6, 2008 at 10:50 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Most small town departments across Kansas, check Morris and Osage County department wages, I'm betting they are low. My nephew is a Sheriff's Dept Investigator, not an entry level position, in Western Ks for $12hr. When I turned in my resignation, the Council Grove PD Chief tried to recruit me to come work for him, starting at $7hr with 9yrs of law enforcement experience. I wouldn't put on the uniform for that. That was 12 yrs ago, but I'd bet it isn't much higher now. Compare PD and FD wages in Emporia to the other City Departments, I think most will be shocked just how poor the pay is considering the dangerous work environment they work in.
Posted by slipandslide (anonymous) on January 6, 2008 at 11:34 p.m. (Suggest removal)
yes its surprising the wages are so low. unskilled grunt labor would complain about those wages, what keeps people working is skilled jobs for those wages?
Posted by neighbor (anonymous) on January 7, 2008 at 12:19 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Dedication, and a strong desire to do the job. Between that, and their low pay, I tend to get a bit testy when I hear people bad mouth them, and the job they do. If the public had to spend just a week in their shoes, they'd have a whole different outlook about the job they do.
Posted by dhcc66 (anonymous) on January 7, 2008 at 9:19 a.m. (Suggest removal)
ok neighbor, if you get testy about somebody bad mouthing them, why do you complain when somebody wants to give them a better product to work with???? the chevys are undersized, underpowered, and from what i've heard from my law enforcement friends, a product that is constantly under repair.
if somebody gave you a tiny little chair to sit in at work that hurt your back all day, with not enough room to house the equipment in to do your job with, do you think you might complain?? the problem isn't oversized officers, just watch the normal sized officer get out of the chevys....it's a squeeze for them too. i watched a pd officer get out at a call the other day, and he's about an average to skinny sized guy. he had to worm his way out and squeeze to get back in. now, make a person sit in there for 8 hrs a day and see how happy they are.
the bid process is a farce and unfortunately there is too much back patting that goes on in emporia for anybody to get things right. just like our fire station #2....they deserve a good working environment, just as the police officers do in the cars they have to spend 8 hrs in.
Posted by Hillbilly (anonymous) on January 7, 2008 at 9:50 a.m. (Suggest removal)
you are so right dhcc, I too have watched them get out, and when you consider all of the stuff they have hanging off their belts, cuffs, weapons, tazer. etc, I would be very very uncomfortable in such a small vehicle, with a small cheap poor excuse of a seat, that is sit in 24 hours a day, a Chevy from longbiine.
I wonder if anyone would really list on here exactly what is REALLY ordered for these cars, engine size, suspension, i would just about bet that there isn't much more than a regular cheap car has, but that's just my view. maybe the gazette would be able to find out??? and publish it if only on here.
To me, it makes sense to at least have cars that might look kinda like a cop car and have power enough to at least intimate law breakers. for those of you who are now going to tell me that they have radios who can outrun law breakers, save your fingers, I realize that.
Bigger cars = better ride= happier cops=better pay=less turnover of officers
Post a comment
We allow registered users to post comments on this Web site. Our goal with this feature is to encourage thoughtful discussions about the news stories. Using the comment feature to make random attacks on people is not acceptable. Emporiagazette.com neither endorses nor guarantees the accuracy of any user contribution. Responsibility for what is posted or contributed to this site is the sole responsibility of each user. To learn more about our posting policies please read our User Poster Agreement Policy.
(Requires free registration.)