Cliffy (anonymous) says...

psychographic what? strategize recruitment of retailers? Wow, we sure used the buzz word wheel here didn't we.
Superfragulisticxbealadouce?

February 28, 2008 at 8:55 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

admireed (anonymous) says...

TIF is a bad idea. Period!

February 28, 2008 at 9:16 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

momus (anonymous) says...

Buxton didn't use psychographics (Information about a population’s values, that is, what their values, concerns and cares are). Buxton took credit card data and plugged it into categories; they then called that process psychographics and looked for someone dumb enough to give them $70,000 for it. Ding, ding, ding they found a winner.

And, because the numbers that they are presenting do not account for Tyson, we just bought a $70,000 paper weight. Buxton doesn't recruit. Retailers approach them about a city and they see if their data concurs with the retailer’s data. They want to put the retailer in the best position possible because they deal with them (national chains) repeatedly. They deal with us once. What do you think their current recommendation would be?

This whole idea of recruiting needs a serious rethink on the city level. Companies go where they will make money. If they can't make money here, than they won't come to Emporia. Publicly traded corporations are forced by their stock holders to open new stores at a fairly rapid pace in order in increase earnings, with the understanding that the stores opening are profitable. We need to work on projects that build Emporia's employment and median income base (jobs?) and the retail will come.

Instead, we are attempting to justify one bad idea (Buxton) with an equally bad idea (retail incentives). Incentives should only be used in very specific instances that really don't apply well to Emporia. Unfortunately, we have certain individuals in a position of leadership that have proven they don't understand retail placement, and don't really care to learn. In a time when we need to make every dollar count, this inefficient use of funds is just sad.

February 28, 2008 at 10:49 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

alfalfa (anonymous) says...

Momus: I couldn't agree more.

February 28, 2008 at 10:53 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

create (anonymous) says...

"We need to work on projects that build Emporia's employment and median income base (jobs?) and the retail will come." Hallelujah, momus. Many people are belly aching for signs for this that and the other when what we really need to do is to turn what you say here into a giant sign and hang it right there at 6th and Commercial. Maybe then it will drive home the point that expensive studies are not what we need; we need median income JOBS !!!

February 29, 2008 at 10:12 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

MeToo (anonymous) says...

Sounds interesting. Let's not write it off till we see what the report says. If we can help prospective Emporia businesses be more successful by knowing more about Emporia residents and consumers, I'm for it. If we want more jobs in Emporia, we need more successful businesses in Emporia. Maybe this will help.

February 29, 2008 at 11:26 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

momus (anonymous) says...

MeToo,

Normally, I might agree with your wait and see aproach. However, this is the third retail study the city has funded in the last five years. Emporia businesses already have leakage information, because we've paid for it twice already. Prospective businesses have their own information and would simply compair their information to ours. In any case, we know that the current information is skewed because it doesn't take the Tyson situation into account. So, the skewed information that we are duplicating from previous studies will be of little new value to existing businesses. And, because the information is skewed, it will be of virtually no value to prospective businesses. As a matter of fact, if we were to approach businesses with information we know to be false, how do you believe they will respond to Emporia in the future?

February 29, 2008 at 12:09 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

ozland (anonymous) says...

Momus,
You are Right! What in the hell is wrong with everybody. The same mistakes over and over. What about a townhall meeting to discuss this and the need for comprehensive management.
Zimmerman sure has spent $$$$$$. Has anyone checked Zimmermans resume? He has managed a city before, right? Did that city go into the red because of one bad decision after another.

February 29, 2008 at 1:11 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

slipandslide (anonymous) says...

wasnt the money for the study spend before tyson layed off? i dont have ideas for emporias troubles, but overkill with the studies is too much. the median income level wont go up especially since the college students leave when they graduate. unless the public schools quit failing, there isnt much to draw families into emporia, so whats the future population going to be? its so easy to get on the net and look up nclb scores to judge a school district before moving to a town and that seems like it would hurt emporia

February 29, 2008 at 8:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

been_there (anonymous) says...

I'm not really into the whole town hall meeting thing again but why not have a short survey available at the Court House where people have to go eventually to pay their taxes or get their tags. It could be inserted into the envelopes we get with our valuations and then returned by mail or when coming in to pay in person. I know some people accomplish this by paying on-line but it could be a starting point. I'm sure there is someone available at the Court House to tally the information and then the powers that be would have a REAL idea of what the taxpaying citizens of Lyon County want or DON'T want and it would only cost US the paper it was printed on. I know I personally go out of town for many items because they are cheaper and I enjoy the change of scenery, not to mention the variety of retail stores and restaurants. I would love it if I could go to Emporia and go to Best Buy, Old Navy or Olive Garden but the fact is, I CAN'T!!!!! I realize that we probably don't have the population to support a large amount of big business but I would like to have a better variety than what we do have.

March 1, 2008 at 5:04 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

create (anonymous) says...

Admire, I learned something from you today. You said that TIF was a bad idea, but you didn't explain why. I didn't know what TIF is so I looked it up. Then I happened to watch C-Span Book TV, the interview with David Johnston about his book, "Free Lunch." Fascinating. One thing he explained is how big business gets subsidized by being allowed to keep sales tax revenues. You know, many of us keep discussing how more retail will equal to more sales tax, and that will relieve us somehow of a tax burden. Not if businesses are allowed to keep sales taxes they collect. We need to ask the city if one of their ideas to "strategize recruitment of retailers" will be to allow retailers to keep sales tax collected. We need to know this. What current businesses in town have been allowed to keep sales tax revenue? Like I said, we need to know this.

Someone suggested a town hall meeting, but someone else said he/she wasn't interested in another one. This author I'm talking about suggests that town meetings let politicians know that the public is keeping their eyes open and those meetings are exactly what is needed. I liked the way he put it. He said that politicians wake up in the morning and put up one finger to test the air of public opinion,and that is how they plan their day.

I think I'll buy this book, but if anyone wants to watch the interview, you too will be fascinated. Times are listed below. I feel like a commercial here.

freelunchthebook.com

Times are eastern so adjust for central time.

Saturday at 10:00 PM, Sunday at 6:00 PM, Sunday at 9:00 PM, and Monday at 3:00 AM
After Words: David Cay Johnston, author of "Free Lunch: How the Wealthiest Americans Enrich Themselves at Government Expense (And Stick You With the Bill)," interviewed by Maya MacGuineas.

March 1, 2008 at 10:01 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

admireed (anonymous) says...

TIF has not happened in Emporia yet. There may a place for it here but I would be very very suspicious. Many of these deals project the moon (pay their own way and then some) but fall way way short of projections

March 1, 2008 at 10:46 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

momus (anonymous) says...

Create,

I agree TIF is counter intuitive in its current usage. Its original purpose was to revitalize dilapidated or depressed areas within a community. Today, we have many politicians (ours included) that want to use TIF for green field development.

To cover one other topic previously introduced on this thread:
Been_There, I understand your desire for more shopping options. As the community’s job base and population grow, businesses will have more customers and disposable income to draw from. Those improvements will lead to more retail and restaurant options, but it will take time. For example, you cite "Best Buy, Old Navy and Olive Garden" as examples of businesses you would like to frequent in Emporia. I think you probably understand that those businesses simply are not realistic for Emporia in the foreseeable future. Topeka, (probably the smallest city in Kansas to contain all three of the stores you mention) according to the 2006 census, had a population of 122,113. Emporia has a population of 26,000. No amount of recruiting is going to change that. Even if we achieved a 3 percent growth rate per year over the next 20 years, Emporia would still have a population under 50,000. We've got to understand our realistic options, or we risk flushing money away on more Buxton projects in the future.

We all like variety and want the city to flourish. I believe the best way to achieve a flourishing economy is to produce more and better jobs for our citizens. Those jobs will drive the development of retail, restaurant and entertainment options. We will never be any of the larger communities that surround Emporia. We do have the opportunity to create and expand unique business offerings within our community, and thereby draw individuals from larger communities to our Emporia destinations. We aren't an ideal location for most large volume retail chains, but, with some effort we could be the perfect place for an entrepreneur to open Emporia's own versions of the businesses mentioned.

March 1, 2008 at 11:03 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

netloafer (anonymous) says...

In yesterday's Gazette there was a story buried on page 17, right after the sports section, titled "HOMEGROWN BUSINESSES HELP RURAL HARVEY COUNTY TOWNS SURVIVE." It illustrates something that is right in small town Kansas economic development. One man, Steve Lang, expanded his small business in Burrton that specialized in providing hardwood products for upscale homes. When all was said and done his company expanded into two new buildings and added 30 employees and $3MM to the town's investment.

The rest of the story follows that theme,

The money quote in the piece follows:
"Economic development agencies created industrial and business parks, toted incentives and low labor costs in efforts to lure big business. Yet in Harvey County, while leaders would welcome a major manufacturer, these small towns aren't banking their hopes on large-scale companies like Boeing or Goodyear. "A lot of them...even AGCO, they started out here locally," Fornaro-Dean said of the global agriculture company formerly known as Hesston Corporation. "This county has a history of entrepreneurship, vision, and growth."

If these small communities get it, why can't we? These small companies are interested more in skills than they are in cheap labor. They aren't beating down the doors for TIF's or other tax breaks. They are rooted in their communities. And, they bring real economic benefit to them as well.

What I also found interesting was that they didn't hire Buxton to help them find their way. They knew what needed to be done and did it!

March 2, 2008 at 6:31 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

create (anonymous) says...

Good comment, Netloafer. Also, could it be that people in these small communities spend their money at home and don't go running off to Topeka or wherever like they do around here?

Yes, hiring groups like Buxton seems so unnecessary, especially when we have a fine university right here at home. I wonder if there is a reason why the business department couldn't take on a graduate study project for less than $70 K if that is what is necessary? Or if they couldn't put together a think tank involving community members who are qualified? Did the city even think to ask the university or take a study trip to a place that is making it?

March 2, 2008 at 8:29 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

netloafer (anonymous) says...

Create

I've recommended more than once to the commissioners that they consider areas like downtown development studies being done by graduate students in E.S.U.'s business school. About a year and a half ago I made a presentation to a masters level class there and saw that there are a lot of very bright students at E.S.U., particularly international students. There's plenty of skill to conduct the type of study we're paying Buxton mega-bucks for. And, I suspect that the output would have far less of the politics in the eventual output.

I've seen companies conduct the Buxton types of studies before. The consultants are generally given marching orders that will give corporate management the cover they need to continue on a course that hasn't worked and has been discredited over and over again by the poor results. That's all too often an unfortunate business reality and I think there may even be a hint of that same type of attitude here in Emporia.

March 2, 2008 at 9:13 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

momus (anonymous) says...

Netloafer,

We have a lot of intellectual capital in this community, if we could only find a way to channel it. It seems like we skip steps in the development process and go directly from brainstorming to some sort of implementation, completely disregarding the realistic probability of success or return on investment.

And, I applaud your advocacy of entrepreneurship. Industrially and commercially, Emporia should be proud of its history of entrepreneurs and seek to expand upon that legacy. However, it seems that we lack that pride and seek out quick fixes and home runs in placing companies of several types that don't have a connection to our community. When said companies don't act in a matter commensurate with the values or Emporia, or they leave entirely, we act shocked. There is something inherently advantageous to building the community from within, retaining wealth here while creating a unique community capable of pulling others from outside Emporia's traditional trade area to our community.

In any event, future planning needs to focus less on who we want to be (I think we've beaten that horse to death, and still haven't build consensus), and we need to focus on who we are and how we fit into the larger area market. We need to look at tech industries that use Moore's law in their development plans and implement a similar philosophy here. "This plan would take ten years to implement, and within that time frame the surrounding market place will look like ______." Right now we are developing strategy without accounting for our relative market position, which hurts us in the long term. We can't change macro economic conditions, but we can change how we think and what we value. Shifting those values to show a tangible advantage for entrepreneurs and entrepreneurship will only help this community in the future. If our values continue to reflect our current belief system, that some outside entity will save us, we are doomed to repeat this current city economic cycle in perpetuity.

March 2, 2008 at 10:21 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

admireed (anonymous) says...

create, your writings above say it all very well. That should end the discussion except that leaders will, by gosh, plow forward anyway. Hard to understand.

March 2, 2008 at 1:14 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )