Voting for the children
By Patrick Kelley
Originally published 02:58 p.m., October 22, 2007
Updated 02:58 p.m., October 22, 2007
The U.S. House could not muster the votes last week to override the president’s veto of the State Children’s Health Insurance Program, but it came close. The override effort fell 13 votes short.
The reason for the narrow margin was that 44 Republican representatives broke ranks with party leadership to support renewal and expansion of the program that provides health insurance to the children of low-income families. In Kansas, SCHIP money is used to support HealthWave, which serves 35,000 children.
One of the Republicans who voted to override the veto was Rep. Jerry Moran, who represents Emporia (and most of the rest of the acreage in Kansas). Moran spends a lot of time in Congress working on improving health care in general and rural health care in particular. He has seen the good that SCHIP does and knows that expanding the program would only do more good.
In an e-mail to an Emporia constituent before Thursday’s vote, Moran made his position clear:
... I support reauthorization of this program and I voted for the final legislation which reauthorized and expanded the SCHIP program. The initial investment in these children’s lives will help them to have healthier lives and will reduce the health-care burden on many working-class families. In addition, this program will reduce emergency room visits, which are the most expensive way to deliver health care, and ultimately save taxpayer money.
Both the House and the Senate passed this compromise and sent it to the President where he used his constitutional authority to veto this bill. In the upcoming week, the House will vote to override his veto. I intend to support the legislation despite the President’s veto so that this program can continue to help Kansas kids receive the health care they need. ...
The override attempt failed, but it is clear that a strong bipartisan bloc in Congress will continue to press the White House to work for a compromise that will not only keep programs such as HealthWave running, but also extend their benefits to more children.
Standing for his principles and standing by the children of Kansas, Moran has earned another gold star in his record of public service.
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
About 60% of the additional children covered by that spending increase already have private insurance coverage today. So mostly what the taxpayers will get for that spending increase is to move millions of children from private insurance coverage to government coverage.
Moreover, many of those children reside in families with incomes as high as $82,000 a year. This doesn’t sound like a bill that was aimed at helping poor children.
October 23, 2007 at 10:25 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
MelissaE (anonymous) says...
open_eyes:
$82k/year in household income in Emporia, KS is huge....but that same amount can't even get you a decent rental in other places (San Diego, NY City, Atlanta) and surrounding suburbs. So if a family of four, for example, is making $82k and living in, say, in Maine (huge $$ for homes), paying rent/mortgage, daycare (often times this cost is more than a mortgage payment), utilities, groceries, gas/auto maintenance, well, there's nothing left for insurance (assuming they even work somewhere that offers insurance).
Where did you get your 60% figure? I'm just curious.
Also, I think it's atrocious that we can't/don't insure all children but we sure can spend money on war, huh?
If we can't protect our children (the future workers), there is nothing left.
M
October 23, 2007 at 12:47 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
CAFEmporia (anonymous) says...
Open_eyes, your 60% number does not compute. I cannot verify it at any credible site. I believe that very few of those gaining insurance are currently covered. However, I did spend some time with a man from Colorado who would fall into that category.
The man has Crohn's Disease. He can't get insurance for himself and his family is also excluded for anything that involves the digestive system. Basically, anything can fall into such a category so he doesn't get it and has so far been surprisingly lucky. But any day something could happen that would break him.
That is just one example of how an earner in the higher brackets might be unable to afford insurance coverage. As "M" also pointed out, cost of living in other parts of the country are much higher than here.
This bill is most certainly aimed at children. My own personal preference would have been that it would also have covered their parents, but it was watered down so that grumps like yourself would not be offended by people having health care. I hope you feel just great that there are 47 million in this country without it. Congratulations. You and others of your belief have made it happen.
The sad thing is, were we to have universal single payer coverage for everyone, it would actually be much cheaper than the current half-jerked system and our businesses would be more competitive with foreign manufacturers. What a deal. We'd have universal coverage, spend less on it, and we would also retain many thousands of jobs. Alas, there are those among us who seem to dislike this country so much they would prefer to have us move toward third world status instead.
CAF
October 23, 2007 at 9:06 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
emporialifer (anonymous) says...
Just curious - are we supposed to expect the government to bail us out on everything now? The more people who want the government involved in everything, the more our "freedoms" are compromised. I find it interesting that the same people that complain about taxes also are in favor of the government taking on things like this that will raise our taxes. Don't get me wrong - I think it's horrible that people cannot get the health care they need for whatever reason, but I really don't think funneling a ton of money into this is going to solve the problem - let's look at the root of the issue. This, like all the other gov't programs, will be abused and guess who will pay for it? It's like Unemployment - sure it seemed like a good idea to help people out, but how about all those people who milk the system and receive checks so they can just sit at home and not work when they are perfectly capable. I'm so glad I work my butt of, so my hard earned money can help pay for these people to sit at home on their butts! (dripping with sarcasm)
October 24, 2007 at 8:25 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
CAFEmporia (anonymous) says...
emporialifer: You are right that any government system can be abused and will be by someone. This is also true of private systems. I once went to my (previous) doctor's office where the doctor was being treated to an incredibly luxuriant luncheon by one of the pharmaceutical companies.
Too, because of regulation by the FDA, AMA, state insurance departments, and other entities, it is difficult to say that the private health industry we have now is any different than a governmentally funded system except that it is far more expensive and less functional than most. Look at the World Health Organization's analysis sometime. They rate US health care system's effectiveness below that of Cuba and other so-called 3rd world countries. We should blush.
If designed as well as France's system (or England's or Sweden's or Italy's), we should cut our health costs at least in half and should improve effectiveness considerably by dumping this one and going to a single payer system with more effective and independent oversight. Having the AMA govern the rules for doctors is just plain stupid. Having insurance rules set by various states instead of allowing us a more centralized set of rules is dividing our power as consumers.
While I agree with you that abuse will occur, building in independent auditing and oversight along with strict punishment standards would minimize the problem. Other countries have good systems. Why can't we?
CAF
October 24, 2007 at 9:11 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
The 60% figure came from The Association of
American Physicians and Surgeons at http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/sto...
"About 60 percent of
children currently eligible (Congressional Budget Office, May 2007) already
have private insurance, and more than 75 percent eligible under this
expansion already have private insurance (Inquiry: Vol. 42, No. 3, pp.
232-254.)"
And also from http://www.blueoregon.com/2007/10/wal... stated "Yes, an NBER working paper published in January finds that public insurance programs have "crowed-out" private insurance. It suggests that "...for every 100 children who are enrolled in public insurance, 60 children lose private insurance."
Also 60% at Also
http://www.humanevents.com/article.ph...
As for calling me a grump, that's fine.
However, according to the WHO rankings, US is 37th, and Cuba is 39th. So how is it you claim the WHO ranks our effectiveness below that of Cuba? The list is at
http://www.photius.com/rankings/healt...
And as for cutting our health costs in half, build a fence along our southern border and you'll see costs come down.... :)
October 24, 2007 at 9:50 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
According to what I've been able to find out, states do have the power to adjust SCHIP eligibility accordingly to local requirements.
Despite being labeled a grump, I'm not against SCHIP. Just against our government marching towards socialism out of control. You said "My own personal preference would have been that it would also have covered their parents". So, in order to get health insurance, run out quick and get pregnant. Yeah, that will really solve alot of problems.
A former welfare mother has an interesting take on SCHIP:
http://themoderatevoice.com/society/l...
October 24, 2007 at 10:27 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
create (anonymous) says...
OpenEyes, your 60% figure is suspect, especially if it comes from a website of American Physicians and Surgeons. A bit biased, wouldn't you say?
With respect to WHO rankings, if Cuba is 39 and the U.S. is 37, so what? What difference does two points make when you compare the two nations? I'm astounded that anyone would even attempt to use 2 points in an argument that compares Cuba to the U.S.
So build a fence along the southern border huh? I was wondering when the racist card was going to be drawn. How much did you pay for the last bunch of celery you bought? Cheap, huh? Would you pay six bucks? When is the last time you held a sick child in your arms with nothing but prayers for healing because you were too damned scared to go for real medical care? People like you won't stop with a fence; next you'll be wanting a pit for all the dead bodies.
If people don't believe that the regular health care systems aren't being abused by private systems, think again. My friend is a nurse, and I hear about the absolutely SUMPTUOUS luncheons being taken to local physicians' offices by drug representatives all the time. And guess what else? All that specialty food AIN'T COMING FROM EMPORIA!!!
MelissaE, good point on the per capita income. $82 K for a family of four in Phoenix or San Diego or Washington DC is poverty row. Here, it's fantastic.
October 24, 2007 at 12:01 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
1) I posted several different links where the 60% came from. Also note, the APS came from Congressional Budget Office, May 2007. Biased?
2). Just trying to point out the facts. Liberals hate facts. You make statements saying the WHO rates the US below Cuba, which is just a plain lie. What's the matter, don't like it when people point out you're trying to mislead people? If you are "astounded that anyone would even attempt to use 2 points in an argument that compares Cuba to the US", then that sounds like you would say their health care systems are about equal, doesn't it? Well, which is it? You make a false statement that our health care system is so much worse than Cuba's that we should blush, and you're all fired up that someone points out your outright lie, and now 2 points doesn't matter.... You've been drinking too much of Michael Moore's Koolaid, me thinks.... :)l
Now your starting to froth at the mouth, you may want to check into getting a rabies shot. Has nothing to do with race, although I'm not surprised that YOU would bring up the racist card. I'm not a Native American, and I bet you're not either. I'm only against ILLEGAL immigration, unlike you apparently, I wish people in this country would respect and obey the law. I grew up on a farm and I can tell you this farce about $6 celery is a load of crap. I know what hired help cost in 1970, and I know what it costs now. And I also know that if the correlation was what you claim it to be, wheat and corn should be $25/bushel, and a loaf of bread should cost about 10 times what it does. There's alot more that goes into the cost of food than what you are aware of.
I never said anything about regular health care systems not being abused by private systems. You might want to lay off the Koolaid while you read and type. I know there are abuses. I also know there are abuses to the federal programs as well.
I looked up the statistics on the census. You're right. KS ranks 31 in average household income, Maine is right behind at 32nd. However, the average cost of living IS higher in Maine, although I couldn't find the exact ranking. As I pointed out, states have the ability to adjust the SCHIP requirements accordingly.
"People like me" don't like to lie and mislead people. I like to see both sides of an argument presented fairly, and with facts, not a bunch of made-up stuff. If that offends you, I'm not sorry.
October 24, 2007 at 1:02 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
Under the Emergency Medical Treatment and Labor Act (EMTALA), hospitals that maintain an
emergency department must provide emergency medical services to anyone regardless of
ability to pay.
So there's no reason to stand there with a sick child in your arms.
No, I don't want a pit dug for all the dead bodies. I just prefer the truth over lies. Again, NOT sorry that offends you.
October 24, 2007 at 1:19 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
But, just to not rely on my own experience and knowledge of farming, I did some digging, and to be fair and present both sides, some older Fed studies did say: "Changes in wages, production labor costs, prices paid to farmer, and retail prices support the hypothesis that field-labor costs may rise substantially without causing a significant change in retail prices."
However, http://money.cnn.com/2006/04/28/smbus..., an article titled "Immigration Reform Could Cost You", it stated "prices would go up possibly 5 to 10 percent as farmers try to pass along the higher cost of labor."
So, even given the worst-case scenario, you need to complain to your local grocer about his 6-dollar celery. You're getting ripped off.
But this is getting off-topic. Just trying to base things a little more on fact and reality, as opposed to wild baseless innuendo and claims.
October 24, 2007 at 1:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
CAFEmporia (anonymous) says...
My apologies about the WHO rankings. Things must have changed in the last three or four months and I should have checked again. Even so, a ranking of 37th, two places ahead of Cuba, is shameful since we pay considerably more than any other country and rank so low in consequence.
I am also offended to be called a liar. There is a big difference between being called a grump and a liar. I, too, am rather a grump at times and know it to be an attitude. The other... open_eyes, you are losing credibility fast.
CAF
October 24, 2007 at 2:08 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
Apology accepted. You do make a point, we should be way ahead of Cuba.
But I really don't care about my personal credibility. The facts speak for themselves. I guess when people make statements which are not true in the future I will refer to it as "misinformed". I'm not sure what you refer to "the other", but I don't see where anything I've posted was biased or slanted. I even posted BOTH sides of the $6 celery debate. I think claiming celery is going to shoot up to $6 based on wages going from, I believe the article stated, an average of $9.50/hour to $14.50 hour, is, well, I won't say, just let readers decide which is more credible.
Again, I'm not against SCHIP. But I am opposed to the government taking over all health care. Reminds me of the saying:
"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only
exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from
the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the
candidates promising them the most benefits from the public treasury, with
the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy,
always followed by a dictatorship." -- Alexander Tyler (on the history of
Ancient Greece) 1770
October 24, 2007 at 2:31 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
You would prefer that I not post any links? Cool! Everyone can just take my word for it now! Lettuce is going to hit $100/head!!!
Hey, I welcome any and all links to other facts and data. If it's so easy, how come I don't see too many people posting web sites that show their side? And I don't mean just "opinion" sites, some concrete data. Show me a scientific study that says celery will hit $6 and I'll read it! LOL
And BTW, the froth is just the foam from the root beer I just drank :)
October 24, 2007 at 2:40 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
create (anonymous) says...
Open eyes, the only abuses going on here is your abuse by putting ideas down that I am not responsible for saying or doing. And lay off the Kool Aid S**t please. You claimed I said, "You said "My own personal preference would have been that it would also have covered their parents". So, in order to get health insurance, run out quick and get pregnant. Yeah, that will really solve alot of problems." No, I did NOT say that, dude, so don't address it to me. But it sure does sound anti-poverty to me.
As far as price correlations go, have you checked the price of bread recently? So farmers aren't getting enough for their grain. Check the catalog prices for equipment. Is that my fault? Hire it done by hand. And speaking of farming, if you're so much against socialism, what about farmers who are getting paid for NOT planting anything? If you don't plant anything, you shouldn't make anything!
You said, "And as for cutting our health costs in half, build a fence along our southern border and you'll see costs come down.... :)"
So what is that smirk supposed to mean? You may think you're not lying to people, but you played the race card, smirk and all. No denying it.
Are you trying to say that there are no whites on medicaid? You are in for a huge surprise if that's what you think. With all the extra military people on active duty, you might also check the large number of recipients of VA and Tricare insurance. Those premiums are paid by your tax dollars, and those soldiers and their families did not come across the southern border.
October 24, 2007 at 2:50 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
create (anonymous) says...
And by the way, openeyes, the $6 celery was my use of HYPERBOLE which, when conducting argument, is "an exaggerated statement which is not meant to be taken literally." It is a device often used to make a point. If you don't believe me, look it up. And it is not pronounced hyperBOWL. It is pronounced High PER bow lee. There, see, I taught you something and didn't even have to give you a link. Sorry you didn't recognize my use of hyperbole, but I honestly thought you would since you were spouting so much learned information.
October 24, 2007 at 3:03 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
create, I'm sorry, I did not address the remark about "prefering it covered their parents" specifically to you - it was posted by CAFEmporia. I just replied to several of the previous posts lumped together.
Yes, I have bought bread recently. Wheat is roughly anywhere from 1 to 3 times (give and take with the markets) what it was 40 years ago, I think bread has gone up a little more than that. But if you don't plant anything, you shouldn't make anything, so are you saying if you don't work, or don't make enough money, you shouldn't get welfare? Or health care? I'm confused....
I really don't care who it is, if they come into this country illegally I'm against it. I don't care if it's my own relatives from Europe, Canada, China, or Mexico. I don't care if a bunch of clones that look and sound exactly like me that are all related to me want to sneak into this country illegally, I'm against it. Come over legally, like the rest of us did. I say our southern border because that is where, obviously, we are currently having the biggest problem enforcing our borders. If you want to turn it into a race comment that is your right, I will not. The smile (or smirk, you say) was just a nod to one very large problem that is currently overburdening our health system.
No whites on Medicaid? Where did that come from? Now I'm really lost....
Well, I see this is spiraling out of control. Damned if you show some facts and damned if you don't. So I think I'll just sum up my feelings on the original subject and crawl back into the hole I came out of.
I'm not against SCHIP. I think our current healthcare system has major problems, and is in dire need of some changes. I just think that, given the current original article, just because the latest changes to SCHIP did not pass, does not mean that all politicians who voted against it are a bunch of child-hating money-hungry big-business bullies. (Although I'm sure some are :). I don't believe socialized medicine (at least in its current form) is the best answer at this time. I see plenty of articles about people in countries that have it complaining alot about the quality of care there, but those are opinion pieces, so I haven't posted any of them. I'm not sure what the solution is. I do know that there will NEVER be a perfect solution, or government, on this earth EVER, as long as people are imperfect. In the meantime, we do the best we can.
October 24, 2007 at 3:19 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
Oh, it was aaaallllll hyper-something. Oh, ok..... uhm, mine too. bye
October 24, 2007 at 3:22 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
create (anonymous) says...
This is going to get old. No wonder Tre wished me luck.
I made the whites on medicaid comment because you said heallth costs would be cut in half if we erected a fence along the southern border. Your reference to southern border suggests "hispanic." That's why I made the comment about whites on medicaid, not just hispanics.
Now darling farmer, here's a quick story, then I am outtahere!
My nephew, on a trip touring England, broke his leg when he was struck by a car. A simple fracture, no surgery required. After one night in the hospital, the cost of full medical care was zero. They couldn't believe it and kept waiting for a bill of some kind. Zero.
Zero!
October 24, 2007 at 3:33 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
Ok, Kstr, I'll rise to your bait and rear my ugly head 1 last time. Then I'll be silent and everyone can just slam me all they want on this post, I'm sure I'll get some good chuckles out of it.
I posted a 60% number early in this thread. I didn't say where it came from, apparently that was wrong. Two separate posters asked me where I got the number. I posted 3 separate links. Apparently that was wrong. Somebody didn't put any stock in where 1 of the links got its data (from the Congressional Budget Office, May, 2007). Given Congress's (Congresses? :) latest approval rating (11% I think), that I can understand. So I posted links from then on showing where I got my data from. And again, apparently that was wrong. As for the guy that broke his leg in England, that's great. But SOMEBODY paid for it. I'll go out on a limb and say the English taxpayers..... just a wild guess.....
As I said in the Gore thread, no doubt the climate is warming, I just wasn't convinced that man is the major or sole reason. I even agreed with you on several points. You asked very snidely if the glaciers had been advancing between the 1920's warming trend and the latest one. I don't know, I wasn't there, so I really can't say for absolutely certain - all I can do it point to all the scientific records that say they were. But who knows? Maybe that was all just opinion? You are under no obligation to believe it.
So you're absolutely right, nothing can be known for certain and all argument is circular and pointless. All knowledge and search for knowledge and truth is meaningless, because everything is just opinion. People that post here don't seem to want to be informed. They only want to be agreed with.
October 24, 2007 at 5:12 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
MelissaE (anonymous) says...
I was one who asked where the 60% number came from--and I appreciate the links. I have not had time to look over them.
But I did have a purely selfish reason for asking--I have a paper due Friday regarding American healthcare and the more info I can find, the better for me. :)
So thank you for posting that, open_eyes. I don't necessarily agree (and, again, I have not researched your links) but I do appreciate the links considering what I am writing is a critical thinking paper vs. a research paper.
And, for future reference, when debating (and this is a debate, LOL) the first thing you ALWAYS do is post your sources.....not because we don't believe you ("you" is a general term in this instance) but because we want to see where you're coming from so we can dispute.
Usually, IME, there are snide comments on debates but you can take them or leave them. I find it all to be kinda fun. (Obviously, I don't get out much, huh?)
M
October 24, 2007 at 8:33 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
CAFEmporia (anonymous) says...
This is a discussion board. We make our comments, give our opinions. Sometimes we give links to sites that support what we say. As a general rule, I do not do that. I consider that I am expressing an opinion and that, if someone wants to look it up, they are free to do so. Occasionally, I make an error as I did on this topic, but I think it is only occasional and it is certainly never intentional. I appreciate being corrected and always acknowledge it with an apology.
If someone wishes to provide gobs of links I usually have some admiration for their energy but I honestly seldom follow up on what they want me to read. This is not a classroom, it is a discussion. Too, with internet references, it is all too easy to find numerous links to support any perspective or ideological slant.
I agree with Melissa that this is often fun and enjoy her postings even if she is a recluse. But I disagree that the snide remarks are simply a component of the medium. I believe they are negative and should not be used. If I include a personal jibe, I make it mild as I did in saying someone is a grump. We are all of us on this discussion grumps in one way or another except for Melissa, of course, who exerts a great deal of energy finding middle ground. Personal attacks are simply not acceptable. Those who do them should be dismissed.
This topic, which is wearing thin now, is one that is very important to us all, regardless of the side we are on. I believe it is proven that our health care system is corrupt, way too expensive, and not nearly as good as it should be. A national system would be much better and much cheaper, would improve our private companies' competitiveness in the world market, and would improve our overall health. Others think that is socialism or communism or whatever.
That's ok. They have the right to be wrong.
CAF
October 24, 2007 at 9:24 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
MelissaE (anonymous) says...
LOL, CAF.
I am a total recluse, I'll give you that.
"That's ok. They have the right to be wrong."
ITA!
M
October 24, 2007 at 9:50 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
emporialifer (anonymous) says...
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck - it's a duck. Anything resembling socialism (as I think this does) I am completely against. Look how corrupt our government is now (or I'm assuming many of you think this because I see you complain about it on other posts and no I'm not going to go copy and paste every single one) - look how people complain about how our government misuses funds - you don't think that same corruption and misuse of funds will apply if the government tries to take this on?! Are you really upset about doctors having fancy dinners? I believe our economy is based on Free enterprise and capitalism. So if someone wants to try to sell me on using their product, I have no problem with them trying to wine and dine me and you shouldn't either - it's business. I'm sure the government would be getting kick-backs as well. The only thing I have a problem with is when that wining and dining/kickbacks are corrupt in a way that allow people to sell products that are dangerous. Like for the FDA to be getting kick-backs - that would be a serious problem since we rely on them (to some degree) to make sure things are safe for us. I agree with open-eyes. Seriously people, every time someone mentions a border they are labeled racist or using the "race card" when we all know that is BS. We all know there are many, many illegals in this country (do I have a specific number - obviously not - they don't report to the census bureau - darn it) and who is paying for their health care? Are a majority of illegals a specific race? Yes, but that doesn't make a person "racist" for pointing out the obvious. Keep up the good fight Open_eyes.
October 25, 2007 at 8:02 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
This is probably the 3rd time I've sworn not to post on this thread again, but since cooler head(s - plural) seem to have returned, I would like to say something that applies to all posts on all forums, not just this thread.
I've made many mistakes in my life, (who hasn't), and many of them were through my own fault and ignorance. As I've grown older (and hopefully, wiser) - I try to inform myself as best I can about a subject, instead of relying on whatever thought happened to float through my mostly empty head at that moment. Many people read these forums other than the few that post. I believe many of them like to be informed as well, as opposed to remaining ignorant. I don't so much post to argue with people here, as to just make info available when I believe it has been misrepresented or omitted. It is absolutely true, you can find anything on the web to support your particular view or slant. There is alot of misinformation out there as well. So who is "right"? It can't all be correct, can it? Well, I presume that most people are intelligent enough to sift thru rhetoric and data, and, as I do, arrive at the best conclusion they are capable of based on their own understanding and powers of discernment. They may not all agree, but if people at least inquire, ask, and, to borrow a phrase, "seek, then they shall find". MelissaE, congratulations and I applaud you for homework on your paper. Whether or not you agree with me is not the point, as long as you are seeking and working to better your knowledge and understanding of your subject, instead of just taking the word of some outspoken actor who never graduated high school, then I totally congratulate and applaud you, and even if we disagree, I completely respect that.
I've had many of my views changed and reversed once I started looking for the truth. I remember I was once young, indestructable, and knew WAAAY more than my parents. I didn't have to search for the truth in that, it eventually knocked me upside my head with a brick (expains alot of things LOL). But ignorance can also be bliss. I remember how disappointed I was when I found out the truth about Santa Claus. But, to prove the point made about finding anything on the web to support your view, I respectfully submit this link that gives CONCRETE PROOF of the existence of Santa Clause: (LMAO :)
http://www.ethicalatheist.com/docs/sa...
Now, I'm not going to admit which side of this particular argument I am on, other than to admit that heck, well, it certainly can't HURT anything if I TRY to be a very good boy between now and Christm..... er... Seasonal Celebrat.... no. heck with it, Christmas :)
October 25, 2007 at 12:18 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )