Seasonal Celebration name remains
By Joey Berlin
Originally published 10:31 p.m., November 14, 2007
Updated 01:06 p.m., November 15, 2007
The Rev. Chester Morris and a number of community members didn’t get their wish. The Emporia school district’s annual Seasonal Celebration will keep its name.
In its meeting Wednesday night at Mary Herbert Learning Center, the district’s board of education voted 5-2 to keep the name the annual holiday event has had since 1993. Before that, it was known as the Christmas Program. A 1992 complaint to the American Civil Liberties Union about the publicly financed program’s religious content prompted changes for both the name and content.
Morris and a group of supporters submitted a petition in December 2006 to revert to the Christmas Program name, then made the request again at the Oct. 24 board meeting.
Board member Mike Helbert moved to keep the name of the Seasonal Celebration and Glen Strickland seconded. Board President Grant Riles and member Mike Crouch voted against the motion.
“I think that the Emporia school board — though I respect them — they did their community a horrible disservice tonight,” Morris said. “A vast majority of the Emporia community would like to see the Christmas program reflect that it is a Christmas program through its title. There is absolutely no reason why that cannot be.”
In a letter submitted to the board for the Oct. 24 meeting, Morris had argued that the U.S. Congress had declared Christmas to be a legal public holiday, and the Supreme Court had stated that school districts could not ban students from saying “Merry Christmas” or singing Christmas songs.
“Therefore,” he wrote, “since the Supreme Court and the Congress of the United States recognizes Christmas as a legal public holiday we request that the name of the Christmas program be changed to reflect the same.”
At the beginning of the board taking up the issue Wednesday, the floor was opened for public comment. The only member of the public to speak was Lori Rogan, who voiced support for Morris’ proposal.
“We celebrate Christmas as a federal holiday,” Rogan said. “So to name it the Christmas Program does nothing more than to acknowledge it also as a federal holiday. We’re not asking for anything religious at this point; just the fact that the holiday be noted in the name for the program as it once was.”
After Rogan’s comments, Helbert made the motion to keep the Seasonal Celebration name. After Strickland seconded it, Riles was the first board member to comment. He said he agreed that there was a precedent set by the federal government designating Christmas as a holiday.
Board Member Angie Schreiber then spoke. She said she hadn’t lived in Emporia back when the event was known as the Christmas Program. But she said her observations of the Seasonal Celebration, including portions devoted to Hanukah and Kwanzaa, made it clear to her that the current name was appropriate.
“And I love Christmas. ... But when I look at the program itself — and I’ve sat through it many times — it’s not a secular Christmas program,” she said. “It is a seasonal celebration of all kinds of people.”
No other board member commented, and the 5-2 vote was taken.
Morris said he thought the board was “of that small percentage of people who despise Christmas, I guess. I don’t know what the problem is with it. But they represent a very small percentage of people in this community who want this to remain as the Seasonal Celebration.”
He said the decision seemed to be part of the “direction society is going.”
“There’s a trend — I guess it’s political correctness, or whatever it is — but there’s this trend to change things that don’t appeal to the way to the way the ‘elitists’ want things to run,” he said. “This is just part of it — that liberalistic mind-set that refuses to acknowledge things as they are.”
Schreiber said after the meeting that she has always understood why the name was changed from the Christmas Program.
“Even my children who have sang in it for years — both my children are in college now — have understood that this is a seasonal celebration,” she said. “It is a celebration of all different cultures and what we represent in Emporia, from Kwanzaa to Jewish to Christianity.”
Bjnemp (anonymous) says...
I'm embarrassed, appalled, and angry to live in a community with leaders so spineless as to allow the anti-American, deluded ACLU, and a miniscule minority of rabble-rousers, to bully them and dictate policy for the overwhelming majority. And Rev. Morris: it is not the "direction society is going". It is the "direction society is being forced to go".
November 14, 2007 at 11:06 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
Do you think the Emporia school board should change the name of the Seasonal Celebration back to the Christmas Program?
Yes 78% 775 votes
No 20% 200 votes
Undecided 0% 9 votes
984 total votes
Which direction is it that society is going?
OH, that's right, by "society", you mean the minority, which control the country. Dang, we've been running these elections all wrong for 230+ years, we were supposed to put the one with the LEAST votes in office, LOL. Next election I'll be sure to vote for the person I DON'T prefer..... wish somebody woulda told me all along that's how it works..... :)
(Raising rabble in my own sarcastic way - lol)
November 14, 2007 at 11:20 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
lookup (anonymous) says...
Thank you school board for not caving in. Let them have Xmas in the church, not in a city building with my tax dollars.
November 14, 2007 at 11:27 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Emporia_Spartan (anonymous) says...
Thankfully, the new school board has stood up to the attempted bullying by those people professing to be speaking for the "majority" in Emporia. The board members are not "spineless". They have stood for what is right, and I admire them. I like the Seasonal Celebration as it is, and I think that ALL Emporians will feel welcome and truly enjoy the district's gift to the community. If you've been reading the Gazette lately, you have to realize that this community is very diverse and not totally "Christian" in our beliefs. To label this program as a "Christmas Program" is to misname it and narrow the focus of the message of peace and goodwill to ALL people. Can't we all just get along and focus on the important aspects of school -- like the rising dropout rate and the failure to meet AYP. Hopefully, this discontent with the labeling of the program will fade and the school board and district can move on successfully. Hats off to the 5 members who stood strong for what is best for all-- not for only the vocal Christians in Emporia. I hope that we can move on from here and celebrate the season in whatever way we choose, regardless of race or religion.
November 14, 2007 at 11:50 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
Wait!!! If just dawned on me!!!
Since it has been harped on again and again on these boards that the Constitution wasn't written to defend the rights of the majority, but ONLY to protect the rights of the minority...
Then a vote of 5 to 2 means the 2 (minority) wins!!!!! The name is being changed back!!!
Hurrah and Merry Christmas to all !!!!!!!!!!! LOL
November 14, 2007 at 11:59 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Bjnemp (anonymous) says...
Wow. I'm glad we don't hold elections based on that rationale. Mr. Jones receives 78% of the vote. Mr. Smith receives 22%. Congratulations, Mr. Smith on your victory. Will the last one to leave the America we once knew please turn out the lights?
November 15, 2007 at 12:05 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
TruthBeTold (anonymous) says...
Well , Emporia For Democracy you leaders have spoken, its a season celebration, Christmas is in the church and in the heart
November 15, 2007 at 12:08 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
But we just did. 78% vote to change the name back to Christmas. 20% vote to leave it the same. Congratulations, 20% (Mr. Smith) on your victory.
Oh, and by the way, no red or green lights to turn out on your way out. (Fort Collins CO decision to only allow white lights on public Christmas decorations now, red and green offend too many people, oops, I mean a few people :)
November 15, 2007 at 12:12 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
TheWatcher (anonymous) says...
Oh my, the conservative christian right is rearing their ugly heads in protest again just because they didn't get their way so they must now act like the childish little kids that they are. Do you people really think a vote of 700 people out of 30,000 is a majority vote...and I wonder how many people actually voted only one time. A scientific poll the Gazette poll isn't. Thanks school board for drawing the line between church and state.
November 15, 2007 at 12:24 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
Since democracy is supposed to be a government representative of the people, we obviously no longer have that form of government. Many of us (the majority) would like to bring it back. Hence the name EmporiansForDemocracy.
Just a question that I'm curious about, anyone feel free to answer that would like.
Do you vote?
If so, why?
November 15, 2007 at 12:25 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Bjnemp (anonymous) says...
Yes, open_eyes, it is a sad state of affairs we endure. We are in a pretty sad CITY of affairs right now, too!
November 15, 2007 at 12:27 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Emporia_Spartan (anonymous) says...
The 78% (775 votes) you refer to is what percentage of the 28,000 plus people who live here? Using a calculator, it amounts to .02% of the entire population. With so few people even voting ( fewer than 1000) in an unscientific poll, it is ridiculous to say that "the majority of Emporians" want to return to the original name. The vast majority didn't even vote, and how many people voted more than once? hmmmmm.....Move on to something more substantive in your arguments.
November 15, 2007 at 12:27 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Bjnemp (anonymous) says...
Based on that logic, Spartacus, everyone of our elected officials should be dismissed from office. Only 20% of citizens voted in the last local election and not a much larger percentage for President, Senators, and Congressmen! Isn't it past your bed time?
November 15, 2007 at 12:32 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
MisterO (anonymous) says...
Maybe I'm wrong, but I think in our sarcasm, we may be confusing the terms democracy and the Constitution. They are two separate things.
Yes, a democracy is government by the people; especially : rule of the majority (definition from Webster.com).
The Constitution is the basic principles and laws of a nation, state, or social group that determine the powers and duties of the government and guarantee certain rights to the people in it (also from Webster.com).
While in most cases, these to concepts complement each other, there are times when they don't and this seems to be one of those times.
I think it's sad that some sort of compromise can't be reached - for example, call it the Christmas Program, but continue to include the diverse content.
For the comments on the anit-American ACLU, maybe I don't quite understand the ACLU. I thought the ACLU was like a group of attorneys. A private citizen with a complaint goes to the ACLU and says, I think this practice violates the Constitution. The ALCU reviews the case and decides whether or not to take it. If they take it, THEY don't make the final decision - they bring it to court and let the COURT make the final decision.
Now if the ALCU takes a case to court and the court decides the practice violates the Constitution, that doesn't tell me the ACLU is anti-American. It tells me the citizen making the original complaint was right - the practice did violate the Constitution.
Again, I could be wrong about that, but that's the way it was explained to me.
November 15, 2007 at 5:38 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
eatasheep69 (anonymous) says...
Does this mean we'll have three more seasonal celebrations? I'm waiting anxiously for the summer one, my favorite season.
Merry Christmas in the meantime.
November 15, 2007 at 7:05 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
hogan77 (anonymous) says...
Well, it looks like yet another year that the Hogan family WON'T be coming back to Emporia, to spend their money and support the school system. It is a great thing that our voices were heard, now wasn't it?
I could be wrong, and if I am someone please correct me. But, when the ACLU was brought into this to start with, didn't they just tell the school board that it had to be changed? Did this actually ever go to court? Didn't our school board originally fold, instead of fight for the program? That's how I understood this.
I applaud the Reverend for trying to better the community, and the only thing I have left to say now is, please continue to try. Don't let a group of 5 people stomp all over OUR rights. Keep trying all you can to assure that we, the Christians, at least have some ground in America; that our hopes and dreams, and all that we work so hard for, are not smashed into little pieces.
November 15, 2007 at 7:08 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
emporialifer (anonymous) says...
I think it's funny that the liberal left can't hardly stand it when someone that differs with their opinion finally stands up for themselves. I can't stand the frivolous lawsuits these days, but perhaps if someone threatened a lawsuit against the school board they would wake up and realize it is Christmas! At least I know there are 2 people on the school board that have the ability to think rationally - will definitely keep that in mind when it's time to vote the others out.
November 15, 2007 at 7:52 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
emporialifer (anonymous) says...
I've never written a comment this long, so this will have to come in pieces now that I know of the 3000 characters rule.
Doing some research on this topic and perhaps this has been posted elsewhere, but here is some interesting information from the ACLJ (American Center for Law & Justice).
http://www.aclj.org/Issues/Resources/...
Here are some direct quotes from their site:
"By way of introduction, the American Center for Law and Justice (ACLJ) is a not-for-profit public interest law and educational group. Our organization exists to educate the public and the government about the right to freedom of speech, particularly in the context of the expression of religious sentiments."
They had a letter that answers many commonly asked questions regarding student rights and Christmas.
"I. Are students allowed to sing Christmas carols with religious themes at school events or in holiday programs?
YES. The Establishment Clause does not prevent the singing of Christmas carols with religious origins by public school choirs. A case that addressed this specific issue upheld the singing of religious Christmas carols in public schools. In Florey v. Sioux Falls School District, 619 F.2d 1311 (8th Cir. 1980), the United States Court of Appeals for the Eighth Circuit held that the study and performance of religious songs, including Christmas carols, are constitutional if their purpose is the “advancement of the students’ knowledge of society’s cultural and religious heritage as well as the provision of an opportunity for students to perform a full range of music, poetry, and drama that is likely to be of interest to the students and their audience.” Id. at 1314."
November 15, 2007 at 8:17 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
emporialifer (anonymous) says...
"Similarly, in Bauchman v. West High School, 132 F.3d 542 (10th Cir. 1997), a student sued the school because of, among other things, the religious content of the songs performed by the school choir. The Tenth Circuit court dismissed the lawsuit, citing Doe and noting that “the Constitution does not require that the purpose of government-sanctioned activity be unrelated to religion.” Id. at 553."
Hmmm - government sanctioned - that means our tax dollars - I know most people like to argue that their tax dollars shouldn't go to support a "Christian" Holiday, but the government doesn't see an issue with that and perhaps I don't want MY tax dollars to go to support a frivolous program about Winter!
"III. May schools display religious symbols during Christmas?
YES. This issue was directly addressed in Clever v. Cherry Hill Township, 838 F. Supp. 929 (D.N.J. 1993). In Clever, the plaintiffs challenged a school policy which provided for religious symbols to be used in school calendars and in a Christmas display. After noting the importance of context and the absence of denominational preference, the court held the policy to be constitutional. The court noted:
Christmas and Chanukah are celebrated as cultural and national holidays as well as religious ones, and there is simply no constitutional doctrine which would forbid school children from sharing in that celebration, provided that these celebrations do not constitute an unconstitutional endorsement of religion and are consistent with a school’s secular educational mission."
Did you guys catch that? Christmas is NOT just a religious holiday, but is a Cultural and National holiday - NO constitutional doctrine forbids sharing in the celebration because they are not endorsing religion.
November 15, 2007 at 8:18 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
emporialifer (anonymous) says...
And finally:
"V. May schools continue to refer to winter and spring breaks as “Christmas” and “Easter” holidays?
YES. School districts are under no constitutional obligation to rename the Christmas and Easter holidays. The Supreme Court itself has acknowledged with approval that Congress gives federal employees a paid holiday on December 25 and calls that holiday “Christmas.” See Lynch v. Donnelly, 465 U.S. 668, 675, 680 (1984); see also Ganulin v. United States, 71 F. Supp. 2d 824 (S.D. Ohio 1999), aff’d, 238 F.3d 420 (6th Cir. 2000) (upholding the federal law making Christmas a legal holiday)."
I would think since they can refer to the breaks using the word "Christmas" that surely having a "Christmas" program named appropriately as such shouldn't be an issue. I think it's time to give these guys a call and see if they would like to take up a lawsuit against our school board on this. I would certainly be willing to donate to a fund to support them fighting this. How about you guys?
November 15, 2007 at 8:18 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
citizenx (anonymous) says...
I've said it before, the whole debate is because you can't use tax dollars to fund a religous event. It would be like forcing a christian to pay for a muslim's trip to Mecca, or vice versa. Not only is unethical, but unconstitutional. But I don't understand why there can't be a compromise. If the churches would fund half the money, and the rest public tax dollars, and the program not only had songs and carols about the Nativity, but also a few from other religions, similiar to what they do now, I don't see why we couldn't call it the "Emporia Christmas Program and Seasonal Celebration," or something to that effect.
November 15, 2007 at 8:41 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
Let me see if I can get this all straight....
People vote, hoping that they are in the majority to elect who they want......But the Constitution is ONLY about protecting minority rights (straight from another post).......but the person with the most votes gets elected....... but that's the majority......but not enough people voted, so that's the minority.......and after being elected, most politicians turn their back on the people that voted for them anyway and do the opposite of what they campaigned for...... which makes them the minority...... or is that the majority.......
Oh man, this makes my head spin. And hurt. Way too confusing for a simpleton such as me.
Never fear, I have a solution. We need to go back to the days of Kings and Emperors when 1 person was given complete, total, absolute, unquestioned power and authority. Simple as that.
And I have just the person in mind. He's tough but fair, protective but caring and sympathetic, all around the perfect person for the job.
Little ol' me.
Please, please, people, as much as I appreciate the golden throne and ticker tape parade offers, etc..., there's really no need.
You see, I'm quite confident that I will garner the least votes ever in the history of American politics (1). Which can only mean one thing....
I WIN!!!!
Is this a great country or WHAT???!!!! LOL!!!!
November 15, 2007 at 8:43 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Renegade (anonymous) says...
Emporia is going to be a Multi-Culture community...Remember???...It's in all the news!...
We will be welcoming people of all cultures to Emporia.
Therefore, if I am reading this right, the School Board, (who is, by the way, part of the group that is supporting the Refugee influx)...is saying we cannot say MERRY CHRISTMAS, because very soon, CHRISTMAS will not be celebrated by all of Emporia.
Good Morning Emporia!!!...The School Board, the Chamber of Commerce, Tyson, and our City Leaders are selling us out...little by little.
They're going to eat this Elephant.....one bite at a time.
November 15, 2007 at 8:51 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
tmac (anonymous) says...
The bottom line:
Let education worry about academics;
Let the church worry about religion.
November 15, 2007 at 8:52 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
karmadog (anonymous) says...
Thank you school board. You did the right thing. Now, I'll be watching the Rev. and the troups who will hopefully put their energy into something productive like holding their own Christmas program. I bet it could be a good one and I'm thankful to live in a country that allows citizens to come together in such a way.
November 15, 2007 at 9:01 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Renegade (anonymous) says...
well tmac......in theory, that's good!...
But while we are compartmentalizing...and telling everyone to "mind their own business"....Emporia is dieing a SLOW death!
The Catholic Charities are getting Grants to bring in the Somali's...little by little......
We heard that our City leaders are working on making us a Community of Immigrants. (multi-cultural).....
Our Chamber of Commerce is inviting Multi-Cultures-(immigrants) to come to Emporia and open their own Businesses. We don't hear much from our current Business owners on the Blogs....I wonder how they feel about this.
ESU is in other Countries inviting them to come to Emporia......
Our School Board is making sure we don't say Merry Christmas, but Tyson is building Prayer Rooms, and hiring only the Immigrants or Refugees, and making money off of us....the TAXPAYERS.....
I really wish your "bottom line" was that simple.......
Bottom Line, tmac............There's MORE TO COME!
November 15, 2007 at 9:08 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jigsawgirl22 (anonymous) says...
People sure like to overreact in this town.
November 15, 2007 at 9:29 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
emporialifer (anonymous) says...
I don't recall ever saying that the Christmas Program had to have only "Christian" songs and scenes, so I don't quite understand why everyone is getting so upset. The holiday is called Christmas, which is why I think it is important that the name reflect the actual holiday. If you would read the posts I had that quoted Law and Court Cases regarding these issues you would realize that it is NOT unconstitutional for tax payers money to fund something religious - religion is part of culture and our educational system is supposed to teach about culture.
November 15, 2007 at 9:29 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jentorrens (anonymous) says...
Let's not forget that this program is put on by students in Emporia grades 6-12 and without any educational value it would cease to exist. Being a part of that program every year for 6 years was what I loved best about going to school in Emporia.
It switched to the Seasonal Celebration when I was in 7th grade and to tell you the truth I really enjoyed learning Holiday songs from other cultures.
The best part of the Seasonal Celebration is that it brings everyone together (whether they celebrate Christmas, Hannukah, Kwanza, or nothing at all) to focus on one message of peace and joy during the Holiday season. It teaches Emporia students tolerance and acceptance.
It's a good thing Emporia students are learning this lesson, as it's obvious many in Emporia have not.
November 15, 2007 at 9:34 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
tosie (anonymous) says...
Way to go Emporia! Have fun celebrating Seasonal Celebration day on December 25th! What a joke...IT'S CHRISTMAS.....and the CHRISTMAS PROGRAM is what it is.....GOOD JOB Lori Rogan on your efforts, unfortunately some people don't get it.
November 15, 2007 at 9:45 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
TheWatcher (anonymous) says...
No there is not a CHRISTMAS program! There is, reflected by the content the past 15 year, a cross-cultural celebration of the winter season. To rename this program Christmas would paint an inaccurate picture of the content of the program. What you people want is to use public monies to advance a religious sect, and thanks to five members of the school board that isn't going to happen. If you don't like the name, don't attend but I bet every seat will continue to be taken.
November 15, 2007 at 10:51 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
lycomu (anonymous) says...
It really is all about the dollars. The school district must have state and federal dollars, this is a fact of life. If they lose this funding because of changing the name of the celebration from seasonal to Christmas and the funds are withheld, how would the loss of funds be made up? Higher taxes? I think this entire thing is ridiculus, PC gone mad. But it is what it is. You can argue, get angry, write on this blog, demand a change, but in the end, you get nowhere. The only solution i see is to have all of those involved in this volunteer their services. Would that not work?
November 15, 2007 at 10:53 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
empciz (anonymous) says...
Christmas Program = free
Seasonal Celebration = $$$
Boycott the the Seasonal Celebration. I know most of the board members who voted and I am sad to see them do this.
November 15, 2007 at 10:59 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
hottopics (anonymous) says...
We didnt hold a public election.
Most people dont know about the poles here on line. I think if it were put to a vote it would be CHRISTMAS CELEBRATION, not a cowardly SEASONAL!!
But I believe that the ones that do vote here show how the rest of Emporia would have vote.
This is way so many things in Emporia are wrong and stay that way.
November 15, 2007 at 11:05 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
tosie (anonymous) says...
exactly hottopics and empciz.....
November 15, 2007 at 11:36 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
cheerup (anonymous) says...
It is kind-of interesting that anything that renegade doesn't agree with is the Somalians fault.
November 15, 2007 at noon ( permalink | suggest removal )
nutsaboutools (anonymous) says...
What's that phrase? "Can't see the forest for the trees". Christmas is supposed to represent peace, love and caring for those less fortunate than us. What does "seasonal" represent? Many have said leave Christmas to the church. Hey I'm all for it, then I wouldn't have to listen to all the Christmas commercial hype, spend $$$$ on gifts & decorations (I'm sure the retail market would love that) and could enjoy Christmas for what it is really all about.
Frankly I don't care whether it's called "Seasonal Celebration", "Holiday Celebration" or "Christmas Celebration" as long as we all realize what this time of year is all about and practice what it preaches (regardless of what religious beliefs we have).
Merry Christmas and Peace to you all :)
November 15, 2007 at 12:08 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Bjnemp (anonymous) says...
Money and the ACLU talks; reasonability and common sense walks. Just this week, Australia ordered all Santa Clauses at mall and stores to NOT say "Ho, Ho, Ho" for fear of offending minority women. Fort Collins, CO outlawed multi-colored outdoor lights since they relate to Christmas. London asked for only thin people to portray Santa Claus as a method of battling childhood obesity. A town in California outlawed green and red napkins in it's schools because those colors hint of Christmas. And Emporia, KS refuses to recognize the word "Christmas" in it's "holiday" musical program. It appears Christmas is being phased out. Might as well; we sure wouldn't want to have the big ol' mean ACLU come after us. Next to go will be Easter, Thanksgiving (You know who those heathens are thanking don't you?), and Veterans Day (Those cemeteries are full of crosses). The government better dump Martin Luther King Day. The man was a Baptist minister! Snow White better watch out, too. I hear those 7 little guys worship her.
November 15, 2007 at 12:24 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
Don't forget Lowe's removed "Christmas" trees from their catalog and replaced them with "Family" trees....
November 15, 2007 at 12:46 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
Hey, that's right! Isn't the government discriminating against other religions by celebrating the birthday of a Baptist minister? Sounds like favoritism to me. He fought for civil rights from a Christian foundation. I think we better change the name to "Spring Celebration", and include all other people representing all other religions. Make it much more multi-cultural and diverse. So that our kids can learn something from it. Let's spend lots of $$$ and time fighting to get it changed/renamed something new. Then 15 years from now when people want to change it BACK to Martin Luther King Day, we can all yawn and say we've got better and much more pressing issues to deal with than that......
November 15, 2007 at 12:53 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
Better throw in this disclaimer: Just for the record, since I'm sure someone will start hollering racist, I'm a big fan of MLK and what he worked and stood for.
November 15, 2007 at 1:10 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
wookdog13 (anonymous) says...
Just one question. Are we having a Christmas parade or a seasonal parade? I am not sure what kind of float to make.LOL
November 15, 2007 at 1:19 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
I know, its just so sad that Emporians are called crazy, rednecks, close-minded, etc.... yet the big city I currently reside in has various public schools that still put on a "Christmas" program, another has candlelight vigil, many different things to celebrate the national federally-declared holiday. None of which is mandatory, of course. Guess we got it all wrong. Emporia is the shining beacon of forward-thinkers, and here in the big city they're all a bunch of backwards hillbillies.....(sigh) - well, I'm sure it won't be for much longer....... Confusing, though. Some are glad they don't live in Emporia anymore, since it's so backwards, but I look around here and nearly every school would qualify as "backwards", still celebrating as they have for years, so I wonder where is it they live now that is so much more "progressive". In the State of Denial or Confusion?
November 15, 2007 at 1:52 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
wookdog13 (anonymous) says...
Open-eyes, thank you. I have myself, been trying to figure out this town. It seems to me that they want to act "citified" but have not figured out how to do it. The ones to complain about Christmas are the same ones who gripe about tv porn, etc. and would rather punish everone else because they are to lazy to get up and change channels or turn the tv off. Emporia, in my eyes is a TOWN of very great confusion and have leaders who hide their heads in the sand! (no pun intended lol)
November 15, 2007 at 2:02 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
tmac (anonymous) says...
Interesting comment about Lowes. I just searched their site and found 98 references to Christmas, including Christmas tree.
November 15, 2007 at 2:33 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
Actually, I just caught that on the radio last night, so I just now did a little searching:
From http://amerpundit.com/2007/11/13/lowe...
"In their Holiday 2007 catalog, containing 56 pages of Christmas gifts, Lowe’s advertises hundreds of gift items, including scores of “Family trees.” In fact, the word “Christmas” only appears two times in the entire holiday catalog. The ads mentioning “Christmas cover only 12 square inches of the 5236 square inches available…
Lowe’s evidently did not want to offend any non-Christians, therefore they replaced “Christmas tree” with “Family tree.” Of course, if Christians are offended that is evidently ok."
And from http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewCulture.as...
"Lowe's Apologizes for 'Family Trees' in Christmas Catalog
By Randy Hall
CNSNews.com Staff Writer/Editor
November 14, 2007
(CNSNews.com) - An early skirmish in this year's "War on Christmas" ended on Tuesday when the nationwide home improvement chain Lowe's apologized for referring to Christmas trees in its holiday catalog as "family trees."
"That was a complete error," Maureen Rich, a spokeswoman for Lowe's Home Improvement Warehouse - which serves more than 13 million customers a week in its 1,400 stores across the nation - told Cybercast News Service. "Right now, we're extremely disappointed in this breakdown in our own creative process.
"We are apologizing to customers today for any confusion our holiday catalog created," Rich said. She explained that the full-color document is called a holiday catalog "because it encompasses all the holidays from October through January."
November 15, 2007 at 2:40 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
tmac (anonymous) says...
It's not the school board's fault that it is a seasonal celebration rather than Christmas. It is required by the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. If it bothers you that much, start an effort to amend the Constitution.
I commend the school board for doing the right thing. It takes guts to vote against the will of the people, perceived or otherwise. I am sure they are not serving for the pay.
For those of you who don't like the decision, I suggest you run for office or find and support a candidate who believes like you. In other words, do something and quit whining.
November 15, 2007 at 2:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
TheWatcher (anonymous) says...
No matter how much the religious zealots whine because they can not impose their will, the decision has been made as a two-thirds majority of the board has spoken. So whine, whine, whine all you want, the deed is in the books!
November 15, 2007 at 2:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
Um..... if it's required by the Constitution, why hasn't the government renamed Christmas holiday? Musta slipped thru the cracks somewhere....
Yes, now we are all religious zealots. Thanks for showing your true colors. Nobody has played this card for awhile, so I'll start it up again. Sounds like a racist statement to me.
From an earlier posted finding: Constitutionally speaking, "Public officials cannot show hostility toward religion". Guess we don't have to worry about you being elected, do we, Watcher?
November 15, 2007 at 2:54 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
proverbs18_21 (anonymous) says...
open_eyes: It's refreshing to read comments with merit. Thanks for your insightful and logical approach to this debate. It's sad that even the word "Christmas" invokes such hostility in this day. Why are people so threatened by it?
There are many things I "don't" believe in - but, I know I have the freedom to not participate in what I "don't" believe in. I certainly don't waste my time trying to take away other people's rights to believe and participate in those things.
Again, I question why so many feel so threatened...
And it would be nice to hear a real refute - not the same ol', same 'ol regurgitation of 'separation of church and state' - which has already been legally struck down in cases like this, or referring to the first amendment in part only, without acknowledging that it is illegal to show hostility towards religion.
November 15, 2007 at 3:49 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
hogan77 (anonymous) says...
Does anyone in here know how we can contact the Reverend Morris? Does he have an email? I would like to say a big thank you to him, for making a large attempt to make things right last night.
November 15, 2007 at 4:32 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
proverbs18_21 (anonymous) says...
hogan - you can email him at chettmorris@yahoo.com
I'm sure he would appreciate it too.
November 15, 2007 at 4:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Penny (anonymous) says...
The sound of the entire sixth grade class singing "Away In A Manger" never fails to bring me to tears. Also, the Hallelujah Chorus from Handel's Messiah, and Let There Be Peace On Earth". The entire program is full of beautiful music (much of which I've sung in church), and this is one Christian who plans on loving every minute of it, no matter what the name of the program is.
November 15, 2007 at 4:55 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ANativeEmporian (anonymous) says...
Let's review - shall we, the seperation of church and state does NOT in its text preclude the holding of any form or religious holiday or services in or on public venues or with public funds. What it says is that the government shall not introduce a state mandated religion. There's a difference between support of a religion and saying everyone has to hold to that religion exclusively.
November 15, 2007 at 5:43 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
emporialifer (anonymous) says...
I don't think anyone on here is "whining" - unless your definition of "whining" is stating an opinion that does not agree with your own. So I guess when it finally gets changed back to a Christmas Program - when you state your opinion against that - I can say you are whining, right? Just wanted to make sure.
tmac - thank you for the suggestion - I am now seriously considering running in the future, so I guess you guys better look out. haha
Proverbs & Open_Eyes - I completely agree - I do not understand the hostility towards the word Christmas these days and why people feel it should not be used when that is how the Federal Government recognizes it. I think someone has mentioned in a previous post some sarcastic and funny new names for all our holidays that might offend - I would have thought people would have realized how ridiculous this all is, but apparently not. It scares me how our society is trending, but most of all I feel sorry for the kids these days that aren't allowed to enjoy the things we were able to before our society had to become so PC.
November 15, 2007 at 5:54 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
hogan77 (anonymous) says...
Thank you Proverbs, I really appreciate you passing that along to me. I will be contacting the Reverend sometime this evening or tomorrow. Right now, I get to go to my daughter's school, and watch her school program, A Season for Thanks.
November 15, 2007 at 6:14 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
MisterO (anonymous) says...
"Posted by open_eyes (anonymous) on November 15, 2007 at 8:43 a.m.
.....But the Constitution is ONLY about protecting minority rights (straight from another post)..."
Hmmm....I guessing that you are referring to my post in another thread. If so, you might consider re-reading what I posted.
I never said protecting the rights of minorities was the ONLY reason the Constitution was written. In fact, I didn't use the words "ONLY" or "minorities" at all. Those are your words, not mine.
Was this an honest mistake on your part or a deliberate and dishonest attempt to misrepresent what I said?
I would like to believe it was an honest mistake. I actually agree with many of the ideas you present, but now I have to wonder how many other references you might misquote in your various postings.
I have said that I'm not always good at expressing my thoughts, and that's true. I don't spend a great deal of time posting messages on the internet.
If someone interprets what I said to mean that protecting minorities was the ONLY reason the Constitution was written (even though I never used the words "minorities" or "ONLY"), I suppose I could take the blame for not expressing myself better. So if I confused anyone with that statement and made their heads spin around or whatever, I apologize.
We could post point and counterpoint and reference links until the cows come home but it's kinda pointless don't you think?
I mean the only way we would have know whether or not this issue violated the separation clause would have been tell the ACLU to piss off and let them file suit to bring it before a judge and let the court decide.
As another poster observed, this didn't happen. The school board caved before a lawsuit was filed.
November 15, 2007 at 6:55 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
MisterO (anonymous) says...
Posted by hogan77 (anonymous) on November 15, 2007 at 7:08 a.m.:
"I could be wrong, and if I am someone please correct me. But, when the ACLU was brought into this to start with, didn't they just tell the school board that it had to be changed? Did this actually ever go to court? Didn't our school board originally fold, instead of fight for the program? That's how I understood this."
I think you're probably right on this, Hogan77. I don't think this ever did go to court. But just because the ACLU told the school board it had to be changed doesn't mean they had the authority to enforce that request. They still would have had to bring it to court.
Is anyone familiar with the original situation? Did the school board at least consult with the district or state's legal advisors before folding (does the district or state even have legal advisors)?
November 15, 2007 at 7:10 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
MisterO (anonymous) says...
Posted by emporialifer (anonymous) on November 15, 2007 at 9:29 a.m. (Suggest removal)
"If you would read the posts I had that quoted Law and Court Cases regarding these issues you would realize that it is NOT unconstitutional for tax payers money to fund something religious - religion is part of culture and our educational system is supposed to teach about culture."
I think the one statement in the previous cases you cited is what makes the difference, EmporiaLifer. The last sentence in the very first case specifically stated, "the study and performance of religious songs, including Christmas carols, are constitutional if their purpose is the “advancement of the students’ knowledge of society’s cultural and religious heritage as well as the provision of an opportunity for students to perform a full range of music, poetry, and drama that is likely to be of interest to the students and their audience."
November 15, 2007 at 7:24 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
tmac (anonymous) says...
Lifer: So if I read you right, as long as the celebration is for the advancement of the student's knowledge...and not a religious celebration, then it is OK? I would agree with that. Let the students perform all manner of appropriate music as long as it furthers their knowledge. But I don't think turning the celebration into a worship service is appropriate use of public funds.
November 15, 2007 at 7:44 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
tmac (anonymous) says...
Now here is something from Charles Haynes of The First Amendment Center that I think ALL of us should consider. I would like to know what the rest of you think. For me, it puts things in perspective....
http://tinyurl.com/27p896
November 15, 2007 at 8:13 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
slipandslide (anonymous) says...
im not clear who said this, but its worth listening to the only way to know if this violated a seperation clause would have been to tell the aclu to piss off and let them file suit.nobody found out if this violated a clause, the next step then is to let a suit happen.
November 15, 2007 at 10:39 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Emporia_Spartan (anonymous) says...
Thanks for posting the Haynes' article, tmac. I wish people could focus on the issues as he outlines them and stop throwing in all the emotions and religious fervor. The simple fact is that today's program presented by the USD253 students is NOT a "Christmas" show and to call it that is false advertising. Bottom line: we can't change the content (Constitutionality issues), and, therefore, the name stays "Seasonal Celebration." I wish the whining could stop and we could spend our energies invigorating academics, which is what schools should focus on. Let the churches provide the religion and the schools provide the education. Let's enjoy the beautiful program that the students work so hard on each year and appreciate the freedom we have to attend such a tribute to tolerance and understanding.
November 15, 2007 at 10:44 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
hogan77 (anonymous) says...
Spartan and tmac: We have the RIGHT to act however we like about this situation. We have the RIGHT to be upset that something so meaningful to us was taken away and replaced with something so generic. And, so you know, this beautiful program (as you call it) is based on the outline of what used to be, the original program that was started so very long ago by people who understood the true meaning of Christmas. They realized they had to give people a gift. They took the beliefs that most all Emporians had, and gave them the gift of a program, filled with beauty and meaning, and reminded them that it was a season to celebrate things other than getting gifts. It was a reminder that there was something greater than they, and that without that greatness, this holiday would not exist.
Don't try and tell me that I am whiny. Because, I know that I am. I am whiny because MY rights to celebrate this holiday as I see fit are in jeopardy. I am whiny because MY religion is not being acknowledged. And most of all, I am whiny because my faith in people is decreasing more and more by the minute. The more time goes by, the more everything will change. Between rich politicians, the ACLU and commercialization, they are managing to take away the true meaning of the holidays. And that, my friends, is something EVERYONE should be upset about.
November 15, 2007 at 11:33 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
MisterO, you are absolutely correct and I apologize. Guess I was hurrying (gotta pay more attention to work!) and got things mixed up somehow. True - you never used the word "ONLY". Sorry about that. I also sincerely hope I have not misquoted anyone else when directly referencing something they said, if I have, please call me out on it.
Your quote was: "But the funny thing about the Constitution is that it wasn't written to protect the rights of the majority. It was written to protect the rights of the minority."
Yes, you did say "rights of the minority", not "minorities".
I searched back thru my posts on these latest 2 Christmas program threads (can't make me call it Seasonal Celebration here LOL) and could only find one reference where I used the word "minorities", and it was not in reference to your post. All the places I found where I referred back to your reference (sorry again about the only) - and also lumped in another poster or 2 who said basically the same thing, I either said "minority" or "minority rights", which to me means the same thing as "rights of the minority". Even in your own post - where you reference my remark - I did not say minorities.
So I guess we both got our signals a little crossed :) - no problem, if that's the worst mixup I do in any single day it's been a good day :)
November 15, 2007 at 11:36 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
open_eyes (anonymous) says...
For anyone that feels political correctness in this country is getting out of control, I just posted a story over on the "Emporia Readies for more Somali Refugees" thread. I won't post it here as it has nothing to do with this article (I have enough trouble staying on topic as it is) - but if you feel like reading another PC (political correctness) story that will make you (well, most of us, not the ultra-PC crowd) shake your head in wonder, thought I'd mention it here - since this thread DOES have somewhat to do with PC.....
'night all
November 15, 2007 at 11:54 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
MisterO (anonymous) says...
>
"So I guess we both got our signals a little crossed :) - no problem, if that's the worst mixup I do in any single day it's been a good day :)"
LOL. You're right. ('Scuse me while I take my foot out of my mouth and type.) Sorry 'bout that.
November 16, 2007 at 5:14 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
glarson (anonymous) says...
Because this thread has topped the 50-comment threshold, it has been frozen and discussion moved to http://www.emporiagazette.com/forums/...
Gwen Larson
Managing Editor
larson@emporiagazette.com
November 16, 2007 at 5:38 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )