rami (anonymous) says...

I agree. If I went to their country I wouldn't expect anyone to adapt to my culture, I would adapt to their culture...even if I didn't believe in what they did. It's the respectful thing to do.
"When in Rome, do as the Romans do"

December 15, 2007 at 10:52 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

equalrights (anonymous) says...

Dude... Seriously....
You say...
""We are a people in a small town in the middle of the United States and our values and ideals are some of best in the world. ""

You feel that your values and ideals are some of the best in the world BECAUSE you have probably lived here all your life. There is nothing wrong with that. However, what about living in the US makes you correct? We are all human which makes each of us imperfect. Each country, city, town, community has crime from ALL races, has poverty from ALL races, as hate and love from ALL races so REALLY our community is not any better or worse than any other community in the world.

December 15, 2007 at 10:56 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

dalelinn (Dale Linn) says...

We can discuss all of the in's, the out's, the cultures, languages, etc. that we want. The reason the situation exists is because industry has been allowed to have it's way with the people of our country.
Our govenment is operating on borrowed money. It's way past the time we recognize this fact. Our government is an operating bankruptcy. Despite what our government and the corporation bringing the refugees in say, there is an advantage that the corporation is receiving (from our govenment) to do this. The corporations don't do things out of generosity and our government has no problem spending our money on anything. Even money we don't have. Foreign investors are buying up our country as we speak. Pretty soon we won't have a country.

December 15, 2007 at 12:48 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

dhcc66 (anonymous) says...

umm..equalrights...i don't think he was trying to impose anything other than the culture of the US on anybody. I think what his point is, is that if you come to our country, bring your culture and your religion and your ways, but don't force them on us, and PLEASE do not DEMAND things that you think you are owed just because you come to our country and don't find it to your liking the way it is.

bottom line. america is a melting pot. most of our ancestors were immigrants who came here to work hard, to enjoy life, and to be free. they also worked very very hard to learn the cultures, the language (which is still English), and to abide by the laws of the land. what other country in this world would you go to and expect to have them change to meet your needs?? granted they do have lots of western culture embedded in other parts of the world, but i don't think that another country such as china, germany, russia, would put up with an american going there and demanding that we do things their way or else.....try filing equal rights lawsuits there and see what that gets you.

December 15, 2007 at 1:20 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

tmac (anonymous) says...

Who ever said racism is dead does not live in Emporia.

December 15, 2007 at 1:32 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Observer (anonymous) says...

Our forebears built this country, preserved the Union, secured our nation and way of life, and provided a haven, a refuge for a variety of cultural heritage.

Well said Ken:

"These people need to follow all the same rules as the rest of us in our society.

Will this stop all of the problems we are having? The answer is no, but it is one big step in the right direction."

It is a matter of respect for those who's guests they are.

December 15, 2007 at 2:20 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

dhcc66 (anonymous) says...

tmac, how is it racism to ask somebody who plans to immigrate to a country to simply abide by the rules? i don't think anybody wants to bar anybody else from coming to the US, Kansas, or Emporia....they are just asking them to not expect US to change for them simply because they are different.
i would almost cry reverse racism for saying that anybody should expect that we as americans have to change all of our culture for somebody who voluntarily comes here from another land.

December 15, 2007 at 2:36 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

rami (anonymous) says...

I can't speak for everyone else, but I myself am not a racist.
I honestly see nothing racist about Mr. Bazil's letter and I have not seen anything racist in the comments.

A compromise needs to be reached is the message I see. If we are supposed to adapt to their culture, they should also have to adapt to our culture.

December 15, 2007 at 2:44 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

tosie (anonymous) says...

Thank you Mr. Bazil for having the guts to say what the citizens of Emporia and Lyon County are really feeling.

December 15, 2007 at 5:14 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

hogan77 (anonymous) says...

I agree that the US is a melting pot of culture. I only have a few things to say about this though. First off, the government will do whatever they wish to do, no matter how hard everyone fights it. It is an all too common thing anymore, and there is very little that we, the little people, can do about it.

And second, is there any way of giving this subject a break for say, oh, a week? I mean, come on people. We have been talking about this non stop. Somalis this, Americans that. It is the Christmas season. I think it is time to relax, sit back, enjoy our friends and family, and the wonderful season that it is. In other words, GIVE IT A BREAK ALREADY!

If you really want to discuss some stories, talk about the weather. God knows that it is on the top of most people's topics list, or at least... it is on my side of Kansas. You are all sitting there complaining about what the Somali population is going to do to your community. Try thinking about other people for once. It is that time of season you know. Think about the ones who are having to spend all of their money to stay warm, think about the ones living in shelters because of no electricity, or the ones who cannot work because their place of business is closed. I think it would be a general thing, us being AMERICANS and all, to think of others at this point in time, and to stop thinking and complaining about things in which you have no control over the situation, and perhaps talk of ways you can help others.

And as you all sit in your nice warm houses with presents under the tree, your electricity running, and food in your house that isn't spoiling, I have one last thing to say.

Merry Christmas to you all.

December 15, 2007 at 5:27 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

smith_ron (anonymous) says...

"We are being overrun with folks from south of our border/"

Doesn't that say Mexicans go home? Or is the author only meaning that we have too many Mexicans?

..."problems with illegal aliens getting into accidents and running from their responsibilities."

I am sorry, but I have never seen an accident report that said a driver in an accident was an illegal alien, or one that has said illegal aliens (or legal ones, for that matter) run from their responsibilities. Oh, I am sure there are a few that fit this description, just like there are a few in any class of individuals who shirk responsibility. But to negatively label an entire class, or race, for that matter, is racism.

Face it, folks, the Somalis, the Mexican, the Asians -- just like us white folk -- are here to stay, There is nothing you can do about it -- nothing legal that is -- accept adapt. You don't have to like it. You don't have to learn their language. You don't have to shop in their stores or eat their foods. However, you do have to live with the fact they are here. And you know what else, they don't have to learn our language, either. But I bet that those that can will. Because they know they have to adapt.

This community -- and its residents -- must adapt if it wants to survive. In fact, we do it every day. When Modine closed, we adapted. We didn't like it, but we did. When Big Lots closed, we adapted by shopping elsewhere. When CofE closed and The Way College with its Moonies came, we adapted. We did not like it, but we adapted. If this community is to survive, we must adapt.

Don't think of America as a melting pot. That implies that all races melt into one with no difference between each culture. America is more like a tossed salad, where all races come together to bring its unique flavor to the pot, but still retaining much of its own culture.

I, for one, am grateful for the diversity of this community. I see it as an opportunity to learn of other cultures and other lands.

Not racist? I don't see Mr. Bazil's comments -- and those of people like him -- as anything but thinly disguised racism.

December 15, 2007 at 5:38 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Due_Process (anonymous) says...

The Problems we are having in Emporia and Lyon County are affecting the credibility of our community and our leaders. While the local residents have public meetings to complain about legal and illegal immigrants in our community, there remains an absence of safe housing that is affordable to the average family. Our city has yet to agree on a housing code to address this.

Violence and violent crimes continue to be perpetrated equally by whites and non-whites, though notably not often Somalis. Domestic violence in particular continues unabated among the good people of our town.

Property crimes affect more Emporians in terms of dollars lost than a few unlicensed drivers who cannot obtain insurance because they are not permitted a drivers license. Vehicle and residential burglaries typically rise at this time of year. The monetary loss from damage and theft often reaches over $20,000 for each break-in. The people most often responsible are neither illegal immigrants nor Somalis.

It is not accidental that the same discriminatory and erroneous debate continues across our state and our nation. It is no mistake that substantive issues are ignored while the public is inflamed over a non-issue that is more a creature of political rhetoric.

An informed electorate is the necessary underpinning of an effective democracy. But compassion is what holds the community together. This holiday season, please take some time to be compassionate to your neighbors and do a little reading on the issues.

December 15, 2007 at 8 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

wirewatt (Ken Bazil) says...

This opinion was emailed to the Gazette two weeks before the meeting at Little Theatre. The Gazette chose to hold it until now to print it. They are trying to stir up people, and I don't know why. I feel they want to keep problems going, this was meant to get people to the meeting, and I was glad to see they came, enought said.

December 15, 2007 at 9:21 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

alfalfa (anonymous) says...

Ken Bazil is right on the mark. People uneasy about the situation today are not racists. We feel the way we feel. I thought our rights to express our opinions would still be valid in the newfound Lyon county melting pot.

Our nation is a nation of immigrants, almost all of us are descendants of immigrants, mostly from Europe. We are Americans today, and value our way of life. If you expect us to welcome immigrants with open arms, understand they have to meet us halfway, embrace our culture as well, and don't try to make us become people we aren't.

December 16, 2007 at 9:27 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

neighbor (anonymous) says...

Who cares if they call you a racist? To me it's a sure sign their argument is weak and they have nothing to offer in the discussion. You can call me any name you want, racist, bigot, honkey, cracker whatever, I know then I'm dealing with a mental midget.

December 16, 2007 at 9:31 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

smith_ron (anonymous) says...

So if I call David Duke a racist, that makes me a mental midget? For what it is worth, Mr. Bazil was not called a racist. His remarks were, though.

December 16, 2007 at 10:38 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

momus (anonymous) says...

smith_ron,

Or anyone else with the similar opinion, can you explain to me why language and race must be linked? I don't think an opinion on ones ability to communicate within a preexisting society has anything to do with race. Playing the racism card, when it comes to a matter of basic communication is a cop out. Immigrants that speak English as a first language, and their children, are more upwardly mobile in this economy. Studies have shown that the immigrant group slowest to achieve middle class status are Spanish speakers that maintain Spanish as a first language (it takes an average of three generations to attain middle class status). And, I'm not just picking on our brethren to the south... We have a multitude of languages and dialects of languages spoken in some form in the US. The wonderful thing about Americanized English is that our language adopts phrases and words from those languages into our melting pot. But, we must recognize that the ability to communicate must transcend race, culture or religion to have an unfragmented society. Otherwise, the "tossed salad" referred to earlier becomes permanent enclaves of people separated by their cultures with out means to communicate and negotiate community understanding. That situation breeds racism and conflict.

Communication, conversely, breeds unity. The German's in WW I stated that the most significant factor in the US adopting the side we chose was that the US spoke English and not German. Our main allies in an admittedly flawed current war are the British and Australians (both English speaking nations). Effective communication transcends skin color, religion, gender and a host of other biological facts and cultural traditions. Language is simply a way to understand one another. Our ability to communicate beyond an individuals cultural boundaries, leads, in part, to our ability to create understanding. That is one reason we live in a great nation.

We need to welcome those coming to the US, but immigrants need to understand WHY this great cultural experiment works, when, in many parts of the world people of different ethnicities or tribes try an incessantly slaughter one another. It is our ability to maintain an individual identity, while communicating effectively with others that do not share that same identity (and recognizing the basic understanding and hopefully respect that ensues) that allows the US to remain a relatively peaceful multiethnic, plural religion society.

December 16, 2007 at 11:24 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

smith_ron (anonymous) says...

Momus: Interesting response. Thornton, I believe, said something similar in her 1996 thesis, "American Approach." However, I think you may have gotten it a bit skewed.

Language is is a form of communication. And racism is communicated in many forms (actions, language). If you don't think language is tied to racism, walk into a predominantly African-American bar and yell the N-word. Ten tell me that language isn't tied to racism.

Making statements such as we are being overrun by those folks from south of the border is a racist statement. Overrun implies they are not welcome here. South of the border implies Mexicans. How can it be anything but racist? To call immigrants illegal is a stereotype. That is like saying every Catholic priest is a child molester. I don't think so.

Yes, communication is universal. However, so is hate. And when someone communicates hate based on skin color or culture, among other things, then they communicate racism.

There is no doubt in my mind that cultures new to this area must adapt to survive. However, we cannot force them to adapt, we can only help them if they choose to do so. And, in the this process, we, too, will adapt to these new cultures -- and in a good way.

Thank you for you comments, Momus. They are some of the most intelligent posted on this issue.

December 16, 2007 at 12:44 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

neighbor (anonymous) says...

I could care less what you call David Duke, or if you think Mr Bazil's comment was racist. Do you think you are going to shame him or anyone else into admitting his beliefs are faulted from your point of view with your labeling?

Attack the content of the message, give another point of view. Do not the attack messenger's character.

December 16, 2007 at 1:35 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

olddog (anonymous) says...

Lets pass this to all of our study buddies and instead of sending emails complaning and begging the bums to protect America and honor the Constitution, lets give them something to really think about!!!

Lets get our Senators and Congressmen while we are cleaning house!!

Lets flood them with emails demanding their resignations!!

We the people, because you will not honor your oaths of office, honor the Constitution, enforce the laws of these United States, and adhere to the voice of the people, hereby demand your resignations!!

President George W. Bush
Vice President Dick Cheney
Secratary of State Condelisa Rice
Senators and Congressmen of each state, (both parties) to follow!! America, lets unite!!!

They do have people that reads the emails whether they are positive or negative, they want to know the pulse of America for various reasons!
They not only want to hear the good news, but they also want to know ahead of time if their might be trouble on the horizon!

If we can get an resignation email going in every state and flood the Capitol we will cause a stir!!

People in every state needs to send them to their Senators, Congressmen, and the Whithouse!

Watch this vido all the way through please!! Well worth watching.

http://www.usawakeup.org/

December 16, 2007 at 5:35 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

slipandslide (anonymous) says...

olddog i watched it and i m emailing it to everyone on my email list! not only are immigrants coming over here but there are border patrols who have found evidence of terrorists crossing into the usa by way of mexico. the crisscrossing over the borders is allowing more than we should allow.

December 16, 2007 at 8:47 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Bjnemp (anonymous) says...

"In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the man's becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American... There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language...and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."

Theodore Roosevelt 1907

Was he a racist, too? Knock off the racist nonsense and start looking at the facts.

December 16, 2007 at 9:26 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Bjnemp (anonymous) says...

Everyone who has commented here concerning immigration should view this. No smoke, no lies, no editorializing: just the facts.

December 16, 2007 at 9:32 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

hartford (anonymous) says...

Mr. Bazil where is your ancestors from? I am guessing they are not from the US. Probably Italy. No real point. If you are in this country then you need to do as Caucasian, Hispanic, Asian, and everyother Americans do. Caucasian, anyone know where they come from? Do all whit people think of themselves as caucasian? It's interesting that caucasians are identified as occupants of Europe, North Africa and the Middle East, through to Northern India and the Middle East, through to Northern India. Point? Nah, not really.

December 16, 2007 at 11:11 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

CAFEmporia (anonymous) says...

I have traveled some around the world, mostly in Europe, and I have come to understand that one of America's weaknesses is that we live within one language. Europe, as it is coming together, is doing so as a potential economic powerhouse, very much because each country is inhabited by people who speak multiple languages, understand different cultures, are able to address each other in ways that show respect for each other, and many more of them are highly educated. By contrast, we Americans are a bit laggard in these respects.

Every country there is, like us on a good day, a tossed salad and it is becoming more true every day. They have found that in spite of the painful aspects of mixing cultures, it is paying off handsomely and to everyone's benefit.

My last visit was to Sweden. They, too, are dealing with Somali refugees who are there in some numbers in the larger cities. So, too, are incoming Muslims mainly from Africa, and Gypsies from eastern Europe, Czechs, Poles, Slovaks, and East Germans, mostly for better jobs. The Swedish people, themselves, all speak English as a second language and usually at least one other besides.

In Romania, one of the poorer countries, almost everyone speaks at least two languages, one being Romanian, the other being Spanish, French, or German. They are a bigger mix than even we including "Romanian" (which is, itself, a mix), Hungarian, German, Roma, and a smattering of others including Turks and others from the Middle East.

Teddy Roosevelt was, yes, mildly racist IMO, but more in the sense of his own strangely egalitarian elitism. I have recently read three biographies of the man and that is my conclusion. To his credit, he made decisions which were biased only by logic and a desire for good will to all. While he could no more understand poverty than he could a Martian, he understood that it was bad and that there were things he, as a wealthy, highly educated, and powerful man could do to alleviate the situation even though, down in his gut, he felt alienation and incomprehension for those people. Keep in mind, too, that he lived in New York City during the time it became truly international. In his home town, he probably heard 30 languages a day, just as he would were he living there today.

While we as individuals may lack that wealth and power, none of us lack the ability to bring forward our own best qualities to promote an atmosphere conducive to welcoming these individuals and encouraging them to wish to be more like us (adopting our "rules") because we are good examples of how to live an enviable life. Considering some of the comments here, such changes would be good for us all.

December 16, 2007 at 11:18 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

knardi (anonymous) says...

Erm. What "rules" are we talking about here? Is it a rule that you have to speak English to live in America? Because I'm pretty sure it's not.

And by the way, our country was NOT founded on "majority rule." That's majoritarianism. Our country is not a democracy, it is a republic--by design! We should be proud to live in a country where the majority is not allowed to abuse the rights of the minority at leisure!

Illegal aliens are a problem, I agree, but the problem is with non-enforcement of immigration laws. Hating other people for any reason never solved any problems. If they are breaking the law, they should be imprisoned and deported. Otherwise, they are a fellow citizen and have the same rights as you do.

December 17, 2007 at 1:43 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

olddog (anonymous) says...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Please take the time to view these videos. There are more vidoes to watch if you choose to do so. They are listed to the right of the videos. We have laws in place the problem is no one wants to inforce the ones we already have.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T74VA3...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T74VA3...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuBo4E...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PpMdT...

http://www.usawakeup.org/

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

December 17, 2007 at 8:26 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

open_eyes (anonymous) says...

"Europe, as it is coming together, is doing so as a potential economic powerhouse".

Perhaps the reason that the US has been THE economic powerhouse for these many years is because we all speak 1 language? Perhaps Eurpoe's "coming together" has more to do with the adoption of the Euro and free trade than the fact that everyone speaks different languages.

As for Europe "coming together", I might suggest a person do some research on the riots that have plagued France in recent years, the rising Islamic forces in England, Germany, Spain, Netherlands - doesn't seem like Europe is "coming together" that much to me. Unless, of course, they all agree to "come together" under the banner of Islamic rule....

December 17, 2007 at 9:30 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

CAFEmporia (anonymous) says...

openeyes: please take a longer look at the European scene. Countries like Finland are now major forces in the world. France, which certainly has as many problems as any first world country, now also has Sarkozy, who is positioned to change not just their government but their social mores as regards work and the role of government to guarantee a status quo.

The difficulties (riots in France, Islamic growth in England) can be understood in several ways. Compare what's been happening in France with the riots and violence in eastern manufacturing cities as our own immigrants were demanding rights in the late 19th, early 20th centuries. In England, the Islamic community has been forced to reconsider their own participation in British society and, for the majority, they are recognizing that their loyalties are to their adopted countries, not to the places from whence their families originated. Change is not peaceful.

When America first gained economic dominance, toward the end of the 19th century, it did so with a very diverse population speaking many different languages, from Chinese in the west to Italian and Greek in the east. Only after WWI did that begin to change. I grew up with German speaking neighbors in the 60's.

Diversity is, itself, strength, whether we talk about biological diversity or social diversity. A culture turned in upon itself is usually doomed, and there is a strong movement to do just that in America right now. It's happened before, but when it does, we lose strength and when we look outward, we gain. Consider the 30's versus the 50's.

I am dismayed that a smallish place like Emporia which does not have a strong, high earning population is getting such an influx of people for relatively low paying, unskilled jobs as are being offered now. But I certainly do not blame those people and find that they do contribute in positive ways to our little society.

I remember when, 20 or so years ago, Reeble's began carrying an increasingly full line of Mexican foodstuff. Frankly, I did not welcome it since that is not my favorite food genre. (Needless to say, my favorite is French.) But, it is working out. The Hispanic contribution to Emporia is not particularly negative. We are changing as a result, but not in ways that seem so bad to me.

After the revolution in Iran in '79, we had a small influx of Persians to Emporia. That turned out positively good. There were Asians in the 70's and 80's, also good in the long run. Now, it is Somalis who dominate the emigration consciousness here. I think it, too will be ok.

Each culture contributes and we all gain by that. It isn't that "they" force their culture upon us and less than a thousand Somalis is not going to change our language significantly. But the influence of change and the growth of our language and perspective offers advantages which we should not be fighting with such vehemence.

December 17, 2007 at 10:15 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

smith_ron (anonymous) says...

CAFE: Excellent post!!!

December 17, 2007 at 10:45 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

open_eyes (anonymous) says...

I have taken a long look at the European scene. I too, have traveled there as well. Your points are good and valid, in response to my first paragraph above. In my second paragraph, I am not talking about general diversity, which I welcome. I am talking specifically about that radical segment of the muslim population(s) that wish to eventually stamp out all religions except Islam and control the world. I think that comparing the riots you have mentioned to what is happening in the world at large is very much missing the point, in my opinion. Continually looking the other way and explaining away the various reasons for the rise in radical Islam in the world is very optimistic, I admire that, but I also fear the outcome with a very heavy heart.

December 17, 2007 at 12:50 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

CAFEmporia (anonymous) says...

open_eyes: We disagree on this point. While there is, truly, a small segment of Islamists who perpetrate or encourage political and social violence, I do not think it is of such a size in Europe or most other parts of the world to be of dire threat to us. Yes, certainly, we must address it, as we are (inadequately) in Afghanistan and should in Sudan and a couple other places where local governments are "gone over" or failed. But the vast majority of Muslims, I believe to be fairly decent world citizens.

I think you are just picking another argument, but I'll point it out in an effort to head it off because, honestly, I rather like you and do not wish to argue. This is a serious topic and we shouldn't do that. Please do not try the subtle implication trick like saying, "Continually looking the other way . . ." You know that is hardly true of me, O_E. LOL. Please take it back. As for "explaining away the various reasons for the rise of radical Islam," I see that as finding answers to the "why" of things and take your accusation as a compliment. You bet, I'm going to keep right on doing that. I think it's important to understand why things happened. Until we do that, any action we take will surely be wrong. Take Iraq . . . please. What idiot who did not try to understand even why toilet paper is good decided to invade Iraq?

Otherwise, I stick by what I said. It is my opinion and I do think I am more correct than wrong. I believe that people will look for stability and peace if they can. To do so, they must have some hope for happiness and, let's face it, there are a lot of people on this world who do not. They must have the ability to move into the future with optimism, and that also is not there for many. And there must be a sense of justice. Give some of these radicals families and help them find jobs and watch them change. If we want our worst fears about the Somalis to come true, let us just treat them like crap, it will come true as some of them grow bitter and angry. Instead, we can treat them as well as we are able and I feel confident they will grow into something more like you and me than what they have been in the past.

CAF

December 17, 2007 at 3:40 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

open_eyes (anonymous) says...

CAFE, sorry if it sounds like I'm trying to pick an argument - I'm not - and ok, I WILL take back "continually looking the other way" referring to you - you certainly do not! LOL - although many do.......

Although I certainly believe that providing optimism and hope does sway many from radical paths, there are many well-educated, affluent people that still choose that path. Many well-to-do muslims become "radicalized" by what they perceive as the decadent moral values of the West. We have a generation coming of age that has been brainwashed by radical hate speeches by imams across the world. I would respectfully disagree on whether or not it is of a size in Europe and other parts to be of a dire threat to us. It has been 14 years now since they first tried to bring down the World Trade Centers, and 6 years since they finally succeeded. I consider those dire threats to us, regardless of the numbers or size involved. I've also followed the story of Ms. Ali who I've referred to numerous times here - seems it has become more of a "problem" in the Netherlands than many would like to admit. She is not the only parliament member (former, now) to receive death threats. I also saw some stats awhile back that estimated Germany would be over 50% muslim in less than 40 years. I'm curious about what will happen then. Will it be necessary for the army to intervene to keep Germany a secular state, as it had to in Turkey recently? Who knows....

Anyway, I posted this on the other board, its a very interesting read - a Jewish American converted to Islam, (with the blessings of his parents) - only to find the mosque in California was a bit more radical than many would like to believe exist in this country already. Although he says himself his experience is atypical, it is something that seems to be growing in this country. Also check out the posts below it...

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/08/15/dave...

I certainly would like to have faith and hope in your last paragraph. Trouble is, even if 90% are decent people, it's always the 10% with the guns and power that we have to deal with sooner or later. There were alot of Germans who disagreed with Hitler's policies, but the rest of the world still had to deal with him. In my opinion, UNTIL Islam undergoes a major reformation within itself, and stamps out much of this radical teaching that is being spread by Saudi Arabia (which by the way, I've read finance something like 90% of the mosques in America with their brand of Wahabiism), the threat is going to only continue to grow, I'm afraid..... :(

December 17, 2007 at 4:07 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

CAFEmporia (anonymous) says...

Thank you, open_eyes. I"ll read your link.

You are right about Wahabism and its radicalism as well as the problems it causes for Saudi Arabia. But that is a prime example of what I was saying. Because of the strange politico-economic realities of Saudi Arabia combined with the ultra-reactionary nature of Wahabism, young people have little to look forward to in Saudi Arabia. They are educated in religion so are unqualified for an interesting job. They are too proud to take work simply for pay. And their freedom of choice is severely limited. These are unhappy people. Were I 20 years old and one of them, I'd probably find fighting in the Hindu Kush preferable to hanging out on the edge of the Red Sea hoping to catch a burkha hottie without getting stoned. You bet.

You are correct, too, that there have been highly educated people who have chosen paths of radicalism. Osama is just one of those. I do not have an answer to that phenomenon except that there is always a segment of every population which goes off one deep end or the other. Too, it is a way to become a big fish in the pond. Or it is just ideological.

We are in an age of radical religious movements. There are problems all over in this respect, whether we consider the Orthodox Church and its retying of the bonds to Russian government or some elements of the evangelical groups in America or Catholic sects in certain places, not to mention Jewish extremists, in addition to the Wahabis.

But, yes, I am optimistic that this will pass. And I do believe that improving people's lives is the best way to accomplish it. People who have decent lives rarely choose extreme radicalism. It happens, but it is not the common choice.

I'll let you know my reaction to your link.

December 17, 2007 at 5:52 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

CAFEmporia (anonymous) says...

I am not trying to hog the bandwidth, but I will tell this little story by way of answering how I feel about the liberal Jewish-American kid who ended up Baptist after first experimenting with radical Islam.

My grandfather was raised in a commune of people who traveled around in the southern Ozarks at the turn of the 20th century following a preacher who claimed to be the reincarnation of Jesus Christ. It was the typical thing: the preacher got to have sex with everyone, got dibs on the best food, was the only one authorized to have money, the whole schmeer.

And then one day, the preacher died. Everyone followed his instructions and made camp there in the woods to await his resurrection which they expected to happen on the third day, more or less. The third day came and went. On the fourth day, there was some muttering. "Jesus stinks," one man said. "Real bad, too," his wife chimed in. They packed up some of their stuff, took a portion of the money, and left.

By the sixth day, some others had drifted off and those who were left decided that, if the Lord could create all that is within six days, then this preacher could get up and do the second coming thing on time, too, and they gave him 24 hours. And then they all packed up and headed off in their separate directions.

Granddad rejoined the church in his old age, choosing one that did not please me at all since I'm rather liberal and think people should be free to think for themselves. Why he did that, I don't know, given what he should have learned in his youth. But there he was, doing it again even if at a lower level than before.

The Jewish kid got caught, too. But like the cult my granddad belonged to, it was not the common experience. Even so, if they wanted to find a substitute for the radical option, it wasn't hard to do.

December 17, 2007 at 6:11 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

open_eyes (anonymous) says...

CAFE, that story was somewhat humorous and sad at the same time. I realize there have always been cults and little splinter sects, and people from all walks of life (rich, poor, etc...) that are drawn to them. And who can say why? Only that person knows in their own mind. Obviously there are things that contribute to it like poverty and hopelessness. But there will probably always be those that nobody can explain why they "went off the deep end".
I guess the main difference I see between radical Islam today, and sects such as what your grandfather followed, and cults such as Jim Jones, etc..... is 1) This cult of martyrdom connected to it - the fanaticals willing not only to die, but to take and entire busload of innocent kindergarteners, for instance, with them, and 2) The worldwide spread of this and the financial backing. You're dead right (no pun intended :) about the cults that have always been with us, and there have always been some more radical than others, well organized, well financed, violent (not like your grandads) - but nothing I think even close to the scale we are seeing nowadays.
What WE can do about it I don't know. Many of these oil-rich countries could easily afford to have their population have much better living standards than they currently do, but it seems those governments are always in danger of being overthrown by regimes even more oppressive (Sharia-type) than what they currently have. It's such a mess.
I hope that someday I can share your optimism. But, as I said, in the meantime I believe the only solution is for the more moderate elements within Islam itself to finally start standing up en masse and stamping this out from within. Or, as Ms. Ali puts it, they need to reform Islam itself. I do see signs of that happening, which are very encouraging, but I must admit I have my fears that it is not happening enough and not happening fast enough.

December 17, 2007 at 7:19 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

CAFEmporia (anonymous) says...

Before we return to the original questions of refugees and immigrants within our own community, one more comment.

We can make differences. We can do it several ways. One is to demand of those we elect to have a progressive foreign which does good abroad without burdening the recipients of our gifts. Another is to encourage educational exchanges. Our university here is doing a pretty good job of that, actually. Educating a foreigner in America is very much like creating an American who will live in a foreign country. (Some will stay here, yes.) But the main thing is, we, ourselves, should be willing to individually extend our hands in friendship and as much understanding as we can.

In my view, love is acceptance. There is nothing more necessary though compassion makes it a good deal more meaningful. Telling someone from Somalia that they must change to meet our standards is saying we do not like them. That's not a good thing. I want to be accepted for who I am and they wish the same for themselves. We are alike in this and it is a simple thing to do.

I think we can do that and even though it is tiny, it can make a huge difference. Perhaps, having made friends of, say, 10% of those people in places like Afghanistan and Pakistan, that 10% will be willing to rat out the 10% who are making problems for us and them, too. Then we can send in our smart bombs. Eh? Well, perhaps there is another answer than bombs, too, but finding out who the bad guys are is a lot easier when you are friends with their good guy neighbors.

CAF

December 17, 2007 at 8:30 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

lycomu (anonymous) says...

America is NOT a melting pot, a homogeneous society, one language, one culture, one set of beliefs and values. We are, rather, a big tossed salad whereas each incrediant adds flavor and substance. Each new group comming to America has been looked at unfavorably but the groups already here. The new immigrants adapted by blending into the group as a whole but still maintaining elements of their own specific culture. There are countless examples of "foreign" culture throughout the US. This does NOT deminish the area in which this happens, but rather it enhances it. In order for the US to continue our growth and prosperity, we need to allow immigration, legal immigration. The government needs to streamline the process so new immigrants will engage in the process so that the can live here legally. The immigrants MUST follow this new process to be here legally and if they don't, then the consiquences need to be immediate and punitive. Why is this concept so difficult to put into practice? The almighty dollar. Companies quest for the bigger and better bottomline, forgo the legal process to hire workers for far lower than standard rates. Workers, in turn, flock here to take "advantage" of employment opportunities not available to them in their native country. This is the problem of illegal immigrantion. Its far more a economic issue than it is a cultural issue.

December 18, 2007 at 10:11 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

open_eyes (anonymous) says...

CAFE, good words. Seriously now, what follows here is NOT trying to pick an argument, just a little more info to show how perplexing it is to try to trace the "why's" of what turns a person to terrorism.
Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, the "principal architect" of the 9/11 attacks, attended university in the US and received a degree in mechanical engineering in North Carolina. Mohammad Atta, perhaps the most famous of the 9/11 hijackers, degreed in Cairo then continued to study in Germany as part of the German student-exchange program. Over half of the 9/11 hijackers attended universities.

This is an article I found concerning a study of a sample group of terrorists in an attempt to determine the root causes. Pretty fascinating, with some surprising findings.

http://usinfo.state.gov/journals/itps...

This link is to a larger collection of information, but it gives backgrounds on each of the 9/11 hijackers, if you search thru it you can find categories such as their education, family wealth, etc....

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/ti...

I guess, again, from my point of view, although all the things you mentioned above CAN and DO help, and we should certainly continue to pursue them, until this theology of hatred is no longer preached, or at least vastly minimized, nothing else is going to completely remove it, or even slow it down that much. In the first study I cited, they even showed that only a small percentage of the terrorists themselves actually attended a radical madrassa - but, eventually, they come into contact with someone that has been indoctrinated into radicalism and convert, so eventually, however indirectly, it traces back to some imam preaching hate and blaming Jews and the US for all the worlds ills somehow.

No, the US, its citizens, and its foreign policy are not perfect. But what countries are? If anyone knows of one, please let me know.... LOL

As you stated, it all comes down to love and acceptance in one's heart. And as long as the opposite continues to be taught elsewhere (and in our current times, is increasing and spreading), then there will always be those who are for whatever reason, drawn to it. And I think that the only ones truly capable of changing this trend are the Muslims themselves, from within. That love and acceptance cannot only be from us, within Islam itself it must replace and stamp out the growing doctrine that teaches hatred and intolerance. There will always be "psychos" and haters among us, but fires can be contained, and sooner or later burn themselves out, with damage ranging across the spectrum. But the level of hatred that it is being preached across the world today is pouring gasoline on it, with the inevitable results......

December 19, 2007 at 1:12 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Denise_Dorcey (anonymous) says...

How about the fire of hate our own military leaders are preaching to our soldiers?...

Claim says Fort Riley violates freedom
Ongoing lawsuit adds evidence to bolster religious freedom charge
By John Milburn
The Associated Press
Published Wednesday, December 19, 2007
A religious freedom foundation has uncovered evidence it says bolsters its federal lawsuit claiming that the military is permitting widespread violations of religious freedom at installations across the country, including Fort Riley.
The evidence is part of a lawsuit filed by Army Spc. Jeremy Hall and the Military Religious Freedom Foundation against Maj. Freddy J. Welborn and Defense Secretary Robert Gates.
The evidence disclosed Tuesday includes several photos and videos of religious materials and activities at Fort Riley, the Air Force Academy in Colorado Springs, Colo., and Fort Jackson, S.C.
Examples at Fort Riley, where Hall is stationed, included a display outside his military police battalion's office with a quote from conservative columnist Ann Coulter saying, "We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity."
Another photo from Fort Riley shows the book "A Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam" for sale at the post exchange.
"These astonishing and saddening evidence which our foundation is making public today only further buttress our lawsuit filed in federal district court," said Mike Weinstein, an attorney in Albuquerque, N.M., and president of the foundation who graduated from the Air Force Academy in 1977.
Fort Riley spokesman Maj. Nathan Bond said the matter was being referred to post commanders for investigation. He said it is the Army's policy to accommodate all religious beliefs to the extent they don't conflict with military missions.
"We do take this seriously," Bond said. "The things you have mentioned to me, if they are true, do not seem in line with the Army values of respect, and we will look into it."
The suit, filed in U.S. District Court in Kansas City, Kan., in September, alleges Welborn threatened to file military charges against Hall and to block his reenlistment for trying to hold a meeting of atheists and non-Christians in Iraq.
Hall was serving his second tour in Iraq and has since returned to the United States. He is with the 97th Military Police Battalion out of Fort Riley.
The suit also alleges Gates permits a military culture in which officers are encouraged to pressure soldiers to adopt and espouse fundamentalist Christian beliefs. It also alleges Gates allows a culture that sanctions activities by Christian organizations, including providing personnel and equipment.
It also says the military permits proselytizing by soldiers, tolerates anti-Semitism and the placing of religious symbols on military equipment, and allows the use of military e-mail accounts to send religious rhetoric...

(To read the rest of the article go to www.cjonline.com)

December 19, 2007 at 8:16 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

netloafer (anonymous) says...

Denise

I assume that you are saying by proxy that our military, partilcularly miliary people who are Christians, preach hate, etc.

I read the Cap-Journal piece.

I'm a Christian and like many I don't subscribe to Ann Coulter's views. I'm not even sure from the piece whether it can be demonstrated from the piece that it was Christians who placed her quote on the bulletin board.

I spent eight years in the military. I can tell you that the religous diversity practiced there was far more inclusive than the diversity one sees in the general public or in the corporate world. Like any cross section of people, there were hate mongers. But I can say for certain that NO religious group was ever targeted for exclusion or exemption.

As for the book at the base exchange. I imagine one could find lots of other books there as well. Are you suggesting that military service precludes the blessings of freedom the rest of us have. I haven't read the book in question, and don't intend to. But I think it's decidedly un-American to suggest that a book available at a post exchange is proof of racism or hate on the part of military leaders or that we should be their censors.

The suit filed alleges that the person being denied re-enlistment was being denied because of his atheist beliefs. First, it's an allegation. Second, there could well be other reasons, if he is being denied at all. Third, allegations are not proof. If it is proven to be true, then he has a case.

The suit alleges proselytizing. Are you suggesting that soldiers shouldn't be permitted to share their beliefs with others? It also alleges anti-Semitism. That's a serious charge. Christians, particularly "fundamentalist" Christians, are overwhelming in their support for Isreal. Where I've seen anti-Semitism actually comes from more secular folk, who see Jews as Zionists suppressing the people of Palestine.

Weinstein also alleges that cadets at the Air Force Academy were allowed to attend Campus Crusade meetings held there. How shocking! In my eight years I saw soldiers permitted to attend Protestant services, Catholic serivces, Jewish services, Muslim services, etc. The military was required to make accomodations for those expressing religious belief. Does that seem shocking to you?

Regarding the Bible and the rifle. I was an atheist during my military days. I do recall the Salvation Army giving me a New Testament on the day I was inducted. I kept it and never read it. I did, however, subscribe to the Solider's Code of Conduct, which expressed both faith in God and our national institutions.

What solutions do you offer to solve this "problem." Censorship?

I'd recommend you consider Bob Dylan's words - "Come mothers and fathers throughout the land, and don't criticize what you don't understand."

There is hate and bigotry to be found everywhere. There's fire and brimstone as well. I detect the smell of that fire emanating from your comment.

December 19, 2007 at 9:31 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Denise_Dorcey (anonymous) says...

I presented the article to offer more information than what open eyes presented. You may interpret as you wish.

Peace to you, loafer.

December 19, 2007 at 9:46 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

open_eyes (anonymous) says...

netloafer, I detect it as well. As we both said, there is hate and bigotry to be found everywhere. Do I need to post a link to KKK propaganda next to prove it?

December 19, 2007 at 11:45 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

CAFEmporia (anonymous) says...

Open_eyes: I agree with what you said regarding educated terrorists and the wonderment of why they would do such things. There seems to be no explanation.

It is hard for me to believe that the full explanation lies with violent religious teachings, particularly, as you describe, for those who were not raised with such beliefs. That doesn't me it isn't the full explanation, only that I can't quite grasp it.

Our defense against such things must be multi-pronged. To be sure, we must continue to gain intel on groups, domestic and foreign, and we must demand good foreign policy from our government, and we must, as individuals, project good will and acceptance wherever possible. We should not, of course, be gullible and self-destructive. I guess that last is where we have such fertile grounds for our conversations.

The first and foremost strategy we should use - again IMO - is to improve the lives of all peoples. We are limited, certainly, in what we can do and we must be careful not to play into the hands of those against us, but even if we improve the lives of a few recalcitrant enemies, we gain. If this is our emphasis, the second and third strategies of intelligence gathering and open combativeness will be more successful.

This applies most strongly to those who have immigrated here. The ones who have done so without documentation, we should return to their countries, and do so gently but firmly. Those, like the Somalis who have and will be arriving in Emporia, our best policy is to see that they have every opportunity to assimilate while honoring their own culture and self-identity. Knowledge of our acts toward them filters back to their homeland and across the world.

December 19, 2007 at 12:51 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

netloafer (anonymous) says...

I went to the MRFF website to see what they had to say about those perceived to be Christian fundamentalists, or "Christian Taliban," as they put it.

The term seems more than a bit loaded to me, designed to make people hate Christians, particularly those who don't practice Christianity in the same way they themselves might.

One of the eye opening things from the website was the sensationalism embedded. It subtly put forth the position that leaders who allowed their troops to voluntarily attend chapel services, read books or literature available to free people, etc were commiting treason.

It also seems to me that there is as much hate practiced in the name of "tolerance and love" as there is from some of the fundamentalists they decry.

I'm not naive enough to think that at some of Emporia's upper crust dinner parties that folks don't discuss their own nobility as they compare themselves to the "ignorant," unlearned" fundamentalists, pentecostals, or others they don't understand. They say they want freedom of expression. What they really seem to want is for everything to be expressed in the manner only they deem fit. They say they're all for religious freedom. What I think they may really want is for others to stifle their beliefs and expressions and exchange them for theirs. I think if that were to happen then they would be satisified

Well, so much for tolerance and diversity.

December 19, 2007 at 12:52 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

netloafer (anonymous) says...

CAFEmporia

Unfortunately, education, as important as it is, is not an antidote. I worked with and mentored a young Muslim man in New Jersey. I love the man like I love my brother. We could discuss many things, but when the subject of the Jewish people and Israel came up he would become furious. I tried to persuade him that a two-state solution was what most Americans believed in. He always said that there was no room for that at all, that every living Jew had to be driven out of the land and killed. I could offer no response. What could I possibly say? That never changed my love for him, but I also always told him that I could never support his "option."

I do agree with you that we need to find ways to improve peoples' lives. I don't know how we could possibly find a gentle way to send those without proper documentation to their countries of origin. It seems to me that people on both sides of the issue don't really want to solve the problem. One side seems to favor a massive roundup and the othe seems to favor doing nothing. The result we have is a problem that is going to continue to fester.

Regarding the Somali people here, I believe we need to find ways for them and other immigrants to assimilate without losing their culture. I think that's got to be a two way street. I also believe that our international institutions, federal government, aid agencies, and local authorities, have failed miserably in this process. I think because of that we have companies like Tyson profiting handsomely at their expense and people at the lower rungs of the economic ladder are fearful that they are going to lose the little they have staked a claim to. I think we can criticize them all we want because of what they believe or perceive. We can call it irrational fear. We can call it hate. But I suspect the shoe would be on the other foot if those coming were coming to take professional positions or leadership positions. They'd probably be saying the very things they condemn others for now.

December 19, 2007 at 1:11 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

open_eyes (anonymous) says...

CAFE, I agree, there is no one explanation for it all. And I don't put the FULL explanation of it on violent teachings, either. As I said, there will (sadly) probably always be isolated fires, but I was merely trying to point out the "gasoline" being thrown on the issue by radical teachings across the world. I'm sure those teachings/teachers have always existed, but in the past I believe were much more marginalized than they are today. There will always be racists, KKK, radicals, etc in the world, most likely. But the KKK would be a good example. Years ago they unfortunately had some clout. But today, even though they may still be well-organized, I think they have been pretty marginalized by society in general. And its the same way with radical Islam. I think the most effective "marginalization" of radicalism must come from within Islam itself, and actively, such as Ms. Ali, not from the passive denials we see in so much of the Islamic world today.
CAFE, I do agree wholeheartedly with your post, just further refining the point I was trying to make.
netloafer, I also agree with your points. As for your very sad story about your Muslim friend, I can only say that somewhere, somehow, somebody has planted hatred and blame of Jews within him, whether it was family, friends, or his mosque. Somewhere he has bought into the propaganda of hatred, blame and intolerance that has been spread. There will probably always be some like him, but until we turn the tide of this hate being spread across the world by the Wahabi Saudi's, we will not be able to check its growth or reduce its size. Makes me wonder what his reaction to Jews here in the US is. Also, when I read the polls that say over 1/4 of Muslims in the US believe suicide terrorist tactics are justified to "defend Islam", I wonder just how broad their definition of "defending Islam" spreads......

December 19, 2007 at 1:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Denise_Dorcey (anonymous) says...

loafer,

I never asked for you or any one else to stifle their religious freedom. Like you, I am a Christian and was very bothered when I read that the hate of Ann Coulter being posted in such a manner.

I also spent 8 years in the military during peacetime and yes, diversity was inclusive at that time. I suspect the climate may be different now. My brother-in-law recently returned from a tour in Iraq. He told our family that acceptance of diversity is not so prevalent in the military anymore.

As a Christian, I will never be able to accept the vision of a soldier holding a Bible and rattling a gun at his chest. I just don't see Christ's teachings in that way.

My intention in presenting the article was to point out that hate exists everywhere, including in our military leadership. I'm not casting aspersions your way or at any one else on this post. You have the right to your opinion as I have the right to mine.

Peace to all of you; especially those that think ill of me. Merry Christmas!

Denise Dorcey

December 19, 2007 at 4:22 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

CAFEmporia (anonymous) says...

Netloafer: You are right and your story illustrates how it does not work for some people. Very sad.

Even so, education is a good tool and often effective - not always, but often.

You are right, too about the problems regarding undocumented aliens already here. I would like to see them deported, down deep in my heart, but the task of doing so - 12 million? 15 million? - is not just daunting, it is impossible.

About the Somalis, we agree again. One thing, though: you mention that, if it were professionals coming to take jobs there would be a different tune being sung. I disagree completely, and the reason is, professionals have been being displaced for decades already. A third of our doctors are foreigners educated overseas, for instance. Even at the VA, I have had a Sikh, a Hindu, and a Chinese. The Hindu, I could not understand at all. I am now consulting with a doctor at KU Med from India, a brilliant man. I read an article about the large number of foreign CEO's in Fortune 500 companies. It is difficult to find a math professor at KSU who speaks English understandably. A significant number of our scientists are from overseas. Professionals have been fighting this a long time, myself included.

The same thing can be said about Emporia's "upper crust". Such as it is, I'm an orbiting member of the group and "they" ("we"?) are no different in our range of thought than the people on this list. In fact, I suspect one of you of being someone I disagree with regularly on a social basis. I don't think we have much of a royalty here in River City except, maybe, some individuals with big heads and rotten egos.

I do appreciate what you say, open_eyes. That we disagree, almost always in a genial manner, is something we will continue to do because it drives us more and more to a compromise each of us can accept and then, hopefully, work with. (Expect it in, maybe, 2016, LOL.)

So, here is a compromise. After thinking it through many times, I am in agreement with you that the Wahabis must be "checked", as you say. They are radical in ways fundamental to their belief. If you have not read the Qu'ran, do so. Hatred of Jews is astonishing there. However, most Muslims see past that and are, truly, good people. The Wahabis (and some others) are blinded to such far sightedness and, yes, we will have to defend against them until they are marginalized.

But I still insist that making nice is the best general policy, whether we are talking about Arabs or Somalis or Hispanics or white middle class guys in Kansas. We all respond to nice and usually in a nice way. For those incapable of it, other options may be required.

December 19, 2007 at 4:28 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

CAFEmporia (anonymous) says...

Thank you for the explanation, Denise. Peace to you, as well.

Merry Christmas, CAF

December 19, 2007 at 4:30 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

netloafer (anonymous) says...

Denise

Are you still assuming that it was some Christian that posted Ann Coulter's message? I would say that the vast majority of Christians, military or civilian, disavow that type of message.

I can't speak for others, but I don't think ill of you. I don't know you; I've never met you. I don't like some of the things you said, but I find myself not liking things I hear from people I love deeply - my wife, my pastor, my family, close friends. I think that's what life is about more often than not. If my wife or someone I care deeply about disagree with me about politics, theology, philosphy, how to play cribbage, whether Ford is better than Chevrolet, we;ve learned that there's nothing personal in the disagreement. Most of my friends are Republicans. I'm a Democrat. We disagree a lot about politics. But, that doesn't seem to get in the way of our friendship. We don't spend our time thinking that the disagreements mean that we think ill of one another.

December 19, 2007 at 4:47 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Denise_Dorcey (anonymous) says...

WOW! We have something in common, loafer. I'm a democrat too.

May be the only thing we agree on but it's a start. Maybe we'll get the opportunity to meet at the next gathering at Regency Gardens restaurant.

I would be honored if you introduced yourself to me. You already know my name.

December 19, 2007 at 4:54 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

open_eyes (anonymous) says...

I, too have been involved in the professional "outsourcing" that has swept the nation in recent years. I politely disagree (somewhat, not completely) as to the method being the same. The fact that many doctors, professors, and other professionals are foreign-born or non-Americans does not concern me as much as the way in which people are "replaced". For instance, if the hospital or university has openings, and interviews qualified candidates, and there are either not enough Americans to fill the job, or the Americans are less qualified, then that is what it is (assuming that is why you see the increasing number of foreign scientists and professionals of which you speak). I seriously doubt that at the hospitals or places you mention, the management came in with a widespread "housecleaning" and told the existing American Dr's "see-ya", and replaced them with people willing to do the work for much less pay. The former "sorry, see-ya, we found someone cheaper" scenario is what I have dealt with in the last several years. And seems to be, in a manner of speaking, what is happening at Tyson as locals seem to be denied employment on an ever increasing basis for whatever reasons Tyson dreams up. However, where I said I only partly disagree with you, is I realize many firms have moved their operations overseas because of costs. I assumed in the above you were talking about hospitals and universities here.

You are right on the Qu'ran, that is exactly why I say that reform must come from within Islam.

December 19, 2007 at 5:17 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

netloafer (anonymous) says...

Open Eyes, Create, CAFEmporia, Denise, et all:

Merry Christmas!

God bless us, one and all.

December 20, 2007 at 6:38 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

create (anonymous) says...

Thank you, Netloafer. Mele Kalikimaka to you and to all.

December 20, 2007 at 8:30 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

open_eyes (anonymous) says...

MERRY CHRISTMAS to all as well!!!!!!

December 20, 2007 at 10:06 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )