There is much talk about economics recently. But do we know enough to determine the differences?

I believe that there remain a few of us who took an Economics class from Prof. Rodney Mitchell at KSTC. He insisted that we recite perfectly the four types of economic systems. He emphasized that there are only four types of economic systems.

Mitchell also clearly stated not to make the mistake of defining a political structure by an economic presence. Therefore communism might operate under a monarch or fascism under a democracy. Remember we are discussing economics; not forms of government.

Here are four economic systems that one had to recite perfectly to pass Rodney Mitchell’s economic classes, of which I had several. Here they are taken from my handwritten notes of 1969:

Communism: An economic system that has present or advocate collective ownership and the central control of all means of production.

Socialism: It has present or advocates collective ownership and control of major forms of production.

Fascism: Has present or advocates individual ownership and collective control of many means of production.

Capitalism: Individual control and ownership of most means of production.

Professor Mitchell drilled us with 25 economic terms and they help one know the differences. An amazing thing is how the US fought “fascism” in WWII in regards to what was done to our economy at the time. Look at the definitions above and see if you can note a curiosity for what we did during WWII to defeat fascism.

I don’t see “democratic socialism” listed anywhere to define a system. I lack a few hours in Economics in order to get to a major in it, but somehow they left out “democratic socialism.”

I have noticed that this term was used often to cover up the destruction of capitalism by some at various points in past history. The likes of Stalin, Castro, the leaders that recently changed Venezuela from being the most prosperous South American country to one of the poorest, China and the USSR.

Look up the old names of many previous “democratic socialist” nations.

We even have a U.S. Senator from a Northeast State that spent time in the USSR and Cuba to learn more about “democratic socialism”. We have a U.S. House member that makes her main topic on how we can become more “democratically socialist.”

Let’s now think about these “democratic socialist” nations.

They had a hard time getting citizens to be motivated to be productive. There was little incentive to work hard. Are we now seeing such a sentiment in our nation?

These “democratic socialist nations” had a hard time forming capital. The word profit was at times even outlawed in these nations. And if one made a “profit” they might be shot. Pol Pot and Stalin and other “democratic socialists” despised the bourgeoisie. Karl Marx used such terms in “Das Kapital,” when he touted communism and wanted a more “just” society without the bourgeoisie capitalists. In “Das Kapital” (1867), Marx proposes that the motivating force of capitalism is in the exploitation of labor, whose unpaid work is the ultimate source of surplus value. (aka: profit)

Landowners and shop owners were at times jailed or killed in the interest of forming socialist models. Famine, in many instances, appeared due to the collectivization of privately owned means of production.

I can give you more examples of how “democratic socialism” failed big time. What this reveals clearly is that there is a reason that economics is called “the dismal science.”

But things changed big time if one recalls.

The Union of Soviet Socialist “Republics” (aka USSR or Russia today) fell apart due to the above-mentioned constraints of socialism. The main problem is that no one had any self-interest in working and they certainly had little skin in the game as the government owned everything. Russia is still way behind the new capitalists on the block who are the Chinese.

Deng Xuaoubgm, a leader of the Peoples Republic of China made a public announcement that, “It doesn’t matter whether a cat is black or white, as long as it catches mice.” Which was a very cautious way to say let’s pitch much of central planning democratic socialism and open the door to greater capitalism. Since doing so I witnessed a booming society while I was in China.

They are in fact more capitalistic us. China now has its very own capitalist stock market which creates needed capital. Plus in just a few decades they have built the largest middle class in the world. Mainly due to the hard-working Chinese and the freeing up of personal interest and ownership from their hard work.

Die-hard “democratic socialists” will point to the Scandinavian countries as their savior and model, which is also bogus as they have reformed many of their failed socialist programs.

Have any of you noticed the fruits of our experiment with becoming more and more of a Socialist Republic here in the US?

Mark Perry, a fellow at the American Enterprise Institute, sums up the fault of socialism here.

“Socialism is the Big Lie of the twentieth century,” he said. “While it promised prosperity, equality, and security, it delivered poverty, misery, and tyranny. Equality was achieved only in the sense that everyone was equal in his or her misery. It is a system that ignores incentives.”

This is the model that Dr. Perry talks about. How do you like the results so far in the United States?

(54) comments

Elrod

Rationa1 You are probably right on your statement that each party has a small amount on the far left and on the far right and you are probably right that the Republicans have a larger majority of that the problem is they control what is done in each party you here mostly from them then you do the politicians in the middle which is what I’m trying to say that they need to start speaking out more

Rationa1

Happy New Year, Elrod

ibtirish

Tax Break? Giving someone they're own money is a break, so is not beating up your Grandma a break ? If a rapist changes his mind an leaves did he give a lady a break too? if the gov. owns the means of production then everything will be like the DMV, say there is 1 Mexican restaurant in town then they can charge high an have low quality because where else you gona go , but if there is 20 of them.... put it a different way , would anyone here want to live under Gary Luke luke's Iron fist, Because those are the types of folks that end up overseeing you lives, Socialist plan your life for you an can't complain as they are paying your way, same as when a parent says , as long as your under my roof you'll follow my rules, Under socialism you can never get out from under the Government's roof, Gary and other guy, get a hobby, go fishing or put a nice chair in the back shed of yours so you can have some quality private time

Rationa1

Don't get your Irish up. Neither Gary nor the other guy are saying there should be government ownership of means of production. Even if the were, the "iron fist" you refer to comes from political authoritarianism, not from economic socialism.

There just aren't that many socialists in the Democrat party. I'd wager there are more authoritarians in the Republican party than socialists among the Democrats. Actually, I'd go further and say there are more authoritarians than socialists posting on these boards.

Elrod

Gary, if you haven’t watch the news nation then you don’t have the right to comment about it you have no idea what they have on there if you have not watched it all you’re going by is what other people post on this site. I believe it is very fair and who they interview they always have both sides when I watched it and they report the news a lot of the time which you don’t see very much on Fox News or MSNBC or CNN or even the other three major networks.

Elrod

Aim High, I will agree with you about Senator Sanders.

Elrod

By the way bobinberea, you asked for fax and stating where you got them from is pointless because each side states their facts and where they got them from based on watching it on Fox, CNN, ESNBC,CBS,ABC, or organizations leaning left or right. None of these organizations can’t be trusted and that’s why nobody knows what is factual and what’s not. Moderates in the middle can only think that it’s somewhere in between. That’s why I have talked about news nation. Most the time they are showing both sides of stories.

Rationa1

NewsNation doesn't do such a good job of showing both sides. This year they've lost their VP of News, their news director, and their managing editor in protest to the right-wing leanings. Perry Sook, the CEO, has stated that NewsNation will lean more to the right to counterbalance what he perceives to be left-leaning news organizations on other networks. Joe Donlon failed to challenge Donald Trump to offer up evidence of his election fraud claims when Donlon interviewed him.

You're right that people tend to dismiss reporting out of hand based on whether they agree with what they perceive the channel's political leanings to be. This is the reason I prefer to go to the person being quoted and post what they say. Of course people are choosing to disbelieve researchers and scientists and saying ridiculous things like "I'm doing my own research." Looking on the internet for someone who agrees with you isn't "doing research," at least not the way scientists and social scientists "do research." (And that's a general observation, Elrod--I'm not accusing you of doing that.)

Gary Lukert

So, is what News Nation shows...is that the REPUBLICANS ARE ALWAYS RIGHT. And DEMOCRATS are ALWAYS WRONG. THAT'S already what FOX does,even when the REPUBLICANS are Wrong!

Elrod

🤷‍♂️ I give up, you can’t argue with people who don’t even try to look at both sides. That’s where this country is gone and once the Republicans take over Congress they will be doing the same stupid things that the Democrats are. They fight so hard to keep the Democrats from ending the filibuster, but I guarantee you the Republicans gain control the Senate they will do the same thing. Y’all enjoy what’s coming. If this country goes into Civil War you all will have contributed to it. I will see you next fall, and if I’m wrong I will own up to it. Can you say the same🤔😔

bobinberea

38 comments so far, by the afternoon of Dec 29. Lots of heat--very little light. Repeatedly I am disappointed to see assertions of fact that are not backed up by credible evidence. How about providing sources? Showing one's work?

Rationa1

I think we have demonstrated Hartman's first statement: we just don't understand enough about economics to discuss the topic intelligently.

Elrod

Also what politician can you claim doesn’t have some organization or company in their pockets. They’re all corrupt and your drinking their Kool-Aid.😂

Aim_High

The democratic socialist Bernie Sanders comes to mind...

Elrod

Aim High you must be a Politician or a retard politician because you’re able to twist words around to suit your needs just like them. Lol

Aim_High

No need to get nasty, Elroy... take a deep breath and relax. It's ok to be wrong.

Elrod

Sounds like you’re buying the Kool-Aid that the socialist factions of the Democrat party are saying. The only person that knows what they’re talking about Joe Manchin and he saying that it’s going to raise the debt. Of course I’m sure you’re going to have some thing made up about him too.

Aim_High

Yeah, the guy in the pocket of coal companies voting against legislation that would help the environment knows what he's talking about... lmao. Enjoy your kool-aid.

Rationa1

You're still mislabeling things as "socialist" that are not truly socialist, Elrod. Go back to the article and look at Hartman's definition again. Socialism is when there is collective ownership and control of forms of production. Politicians giving away money isn't socialism because the collective does not own the means of production.

A group that comes together and owns the means of production. Makes policy on how it will be run. Gee, sounds more like a Farmers' Co-Op than the Democrat Party. There's no Kool-Aid here, Elrod. This boogeyman doesn't exist.

Elrod

So now who’s drinking the Kool-Aid Aim High. Lol.

Elrod

Gary one thing I do agree with you is that that tax break that the Republicans gave the rich was a huge mistake. And you’re right it did add to the deficit. But so does the BBB builder trying to pass. The infrastructure bill that passed in the most part is a positive thing.

Aim_High

BBB would not add to the deficit... it would be paid for by the largest corporations and individuals making over $400k, and by repealing Trumps tax rebate. Amazon shouldn't be paying zero in taxes. For more info... https://www.whitehouse.gov/build-back-better/

Elrod

Have you ever even watched news nation Gary? Or are you getting your information from MS NBC and CNN? Tell the truth Gary, you always say you tell the truth, have you ever watched it? If you haven’t then you have no right to say anything about it based on other news sources.

Gary Lukert

No, I have NEVER watched NEWS NATION. Also, I have NOT had Television in over year. I do have PARAMOUNT TV---that has ONLY CBS. But, only with 2 exceptions have I watched CBS Evening News: Jan 6th & 7th. I did watch Late Night a few times, until what's his name made fun of Biden. I do not watch CNN nor MSNBC, nor the Communists Networks, Including FOX. They are Liars, they Support (as I have seen on YAHOO NEWS) Russia invading the next door country) Putin, they ADMIRE PUTIN...Well, they really would like to see a REPUBLICAN POLICE STATE IN the United States. They are Racist.

Rationa1

I have also never watched News Nation. Neither have I had a kidney stone. I don't think that disqualifies me from saying either one is bad.

Gary Lukert

Trump and the Republicans LOVE the Taliban!

Gary Lukert

Biden does NOT support Socialism in any way, shape or form! He is already the Best President Ever!

Elrod

By the way I do not watch Fox News. I used to watch CNN, until news nation came on.

Aim_High

Well if you can ever point us to any of Bidens socialist accomplishments, we'd love to hear them. You're listening to the same people who said they had nudie photos of Hunter Biden and proof Trump won the election... and that ivermectin and vitamin C were miracle cures... put down the juice and stop parroting right wing propaganda.

Gary Lukert

Isn't NEWS NATION also Pro Trump, and Pro Trump/Republican Mobsters who killed 6 capitol police on January 6th?

Elrod

Funny, How socialist like you have to resort to name calling and making fun of people for your arguments. Thankfully there is least one smart senator who is holding up that bill and I hope he stays strong. Where is satisfaction of knowing that people are starting to wise up to what is happening in Washington DC and we’ll keep the socialist from taking control. Biden will be a lame duck president after next year‘s election. I just hope the Republicans Wise up and do the same for their Far right extremist.

Aim_High

Hey bud you called me clueless right off the bat... and now you're trying to compare me to a nazi... lol, but you're upset that I said you're the clueless one? You really are extremely fragile, and drunk on the kool-aid!

Elrod

A large portion of the build back better bill that Biden is promoting is Socialism spending free money for everybody. And I’m the When is wasting my time arguing with people who are socialists. You just like to make fun of people if they were things wrong. So enjoy the holidays. Hopefully the next election will laminate a large portion of the Trumpets, and also a large portion of the liberal social wing of the party.

Aim_High

Sorry buddy, but this is strike 3... you're out! You have no clue what you're talking about. Build Back Better has nothing to do with socialism, regardless of what Fox news is telling you... you claim to like beer, but the only thing in your cup is kool-aid! And sorry if you feel like I'm making fun of you... I forget how fragile folks are on the right...

Gary Lukert

Your post is not true!

Gary Lukert

What do you call the Great Tax Giveaway to the RICH...by the REPUBLICANS! Increased the Deficit by 2 trillion dollars.

Gary Lukert

That's a Lie!

Elrod

I don’t have the time to list them all, the fact that Biden supports everything that the socialist faction of the Democratic Party wants and is getting from him. I prefer beer instead of Kool-Aid. Just a stupid statement the far left liberals made up. There’s plenty of far right statements that are said that are just as dumb & wrong. That’s why I keep saying that both extreme sides of the parties are Ruining this country and you are supportive of one side. I guess it is really a waste of my time to argue with people who are so one-sided and they reminded

Aim_High

Do you have time to list at least one then? Or is that just too much to ask?

Also, you think drinking the kool-aid was made up by leftist liberals? And you think I'm the clueless one here? Hmmmmm... lol.

Rationa1

It's a waste of time to argue when you "don't have time to list" evidence that you are correct or the people whom you argue against are wrong. Go back and look at Hartman's definition of socialism. The Democrat Party platform does not advocate that.

Gary Lukert

That is NOT True!

Trump and the Republicans support the Murder of Capitol Police!

Elrod

If that is really what you believe then that just shows how clueless you are.

Aim_High

Then let's see your list of "socialist" things Biden has done. I do believe you've been drinking the kool-aid.

An Expatriate Emporian

Okay, Aim High, I have to point out the flaw in your logic that you keep going back to - it was Flavor-Aid, not Kool-Aid (and grape to be specific).

All humor aside, from the perspective of the GOP, Biden has tried to do a number of things (with limited success due to their stonewalling), from student loan abatement to free universal education, child support, family and medical leave, and access to health care. So the idea was to do these things, but hasn't gotten very far, but then again, whether these individually or together amount to socialism is another debate. However the GOP as it exists today paint it all as such, and their ability to have an informed conversation is deeply limited. But it goes back to Regan when he framed any social programs that helped minorities (mostly African Americans), or women (family planning support) as being "welfare queens." The long and short of it was that if it was a program that helped minorities then it clearly must be bad for the white male populace and must be lambasted at all costs.

An easy example, is that within GOP talking points for the last several decades, it's forbidden to frame farm subsidies as socialism - so in the mind of the evangelical right, providing income subsidies to [predominantly white] farmers is capitalism, while providing income subsidies to lower-class [and generally minority] workers is socialist. Are either socialism or not isn't the point, it's that it's a boogyman term that rails up Republicans even through they wouldn't know a socialist or a communist if one was standing in front of them.

Rationa1

So what would you accept as evidence that you're wrong on this matter, Elrod?

Gary Lukert

They do Support the REPUBLICAN January 6th MURDERERS!

Elrod

That is total BS he is bowing to the socialist part of his party, Sanders is no longer in charge of that faction anyway.

Elrod

MWS, I do agree with you that the government is the problem, but it’s both parties that are at fault. You have the Republican party who has been controlled by Trump and you have a Democrat party controlled by the socialist. Each party needs to get away from that, and get back to the moderates in the middle. It appears that the republican party is trying to get away from trumps lies, But is not having as much success as I was hoping. The Democrat party shows no signs whatsoever of getting away from the socialist controlling their party, but I wish the moderates in there party would step up and speak out.

Aim_High

Biden is a capitalist, and has spoken out against Bernie Sanders more than once. Fox news and their Republican watchers calling him a socialist is an attempt to sway uninformed voters. Biden and Sanders have very different views.

MWS

It's interesting that the first 3 forms of economics is usually based on atheism. The concept is that the state has superior knowledge compared to the citizens. Capitalism allows for religion & Christianity to flourish. In the U.S. we see the gasping incompetence and immorality of the federal government to govern it's citizens. The worst we have ever seen is the current administration and the Democrat run cities that are in ruins on multiple levels (high unemployment rates, record crime & murder rates, wholesale looting and rioting and decreasing populations). Capitalism, even with all it's flaws, is clearly the greatest system ever devised. As Ronald Reagan once said "The worse thing anyone has ever heard; I'm from the government and I'm here to help. Government is not part of the problem, it is the problem."

Rationa1

Well, there you go again, Sam. You're missing Hartman's point that economic systems are different from political systems, and vice versa. By trying to introduce religion into the conversation you actually increase confusion, not clarity. Capitalism does not allow religion and Christianity to flourish...the First Amendment does. Our religious rights are protected by our political system that guarantees rights to minorities, not by Smithian laissez-faire economics or the Monetarism of Friedman and the Chicago School. There are multiple examples of capitalism existing within authoritarian governments. I am aware of no examples of democracies existing outside capitalist economic models.

Hartman's position embraces American exceptionalism, MWS. He holds that capitalism is the superior economic model. You agree with him on these things. I don't think there has been much change in the definitions of those four economic systems since 1970. Why beat up Hartman over issues like religion and crime rates, both of which you are demonstrably wrong about, when you share the ideas on capitalism and American exceptionalism?

Gary Lukert

All Religions are based on "beliefs", NOT FACT. Like "Flat Earth"! Superstition. Republican Politicians CLAIM to be Christian. I have not heard any Republican Politician....nor anyone at FOX NEWS say "love one another", "forgive". Republicanism is based on the OLD SENTIMENT'S "eye for an eye." Republican Politicians LIE all the time. Republican Politicians are WORSE than the Devil! Republicans don't give a Damn about America! Republican Politicians' desires rest most with Hitler. Actually, Most Republican Politicians believe Slavery was right, will even quote passages in the Bible to support it. Most Republican Politicians want a POLICE STATE! Most Republican Politicians do not believe Democratic

Government...and are working tirelessly to end voting. Most Republican Politicians support the TRUMPERS Murdering 6 Capitol Police on January 6th. Most Republican Politicians supported the wanting to hang Vice President Pence, and wanting to Kill Nancy Pelosi. When it comes to Evil, the Republican Party wants to be the American Taliban. Most of the Republican Party loves the way the Taliban does things! Most Republican Politicians are TALIBAN WANNABEES!

Gary Lukert

I am amazed that there have been no NEGATIVE comments to this. GARY

bubarubu

Ah yes, nothing matters but ownership. China's OK if its capitalist, even if it doesn't call itself such, but let's ignore authoritarianism that restricts teaching, oppresses religious minorities, Let's pretend that democratic socialism doesn't exist because it's not in a local columnist's 52 year old class notes. And by all means, let's go one pretending that a nation is somehow something other than the welfare of its people, certainly not the ideals or self-governance that might lead to actual freedom and collective well-being,

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