Posted by CAFEmporia (anonymous) on February 21, 2008 at 6:12 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Immigration continues to be a major topic and one we need to keep discussing. What we have seen on other threads within this forum have been specific to situations here in Emporia (Somalis, Tyson, etc) rather than more purely policy discussions.

The candidates for president have been vague, I have thought, about what they will promote. Our Congress people have also been mostly unclear about their own proposals, tending to support other proposals. The last proposal, Bush’s, failed to gain enough support in Congress and nothing has been done. Meanwhile, at least half a million mostly Hispanic immigrants become “illegal” or “undocumented” every year. Those who are here marry, have children, become more a part of the community, but live with the possibility of being arrested and deported. It is important that a policy be enacted into law and the sooner the better for everyone.

I think that it has become obvious we as a nation cannot continue to absorb the citizens of other countries indefinitely. We must do something to stop this from happening. We must enact processes which will allow us to observe and control who arrives and who stays.

Building fences at the borders will not work, I believe. There are too many ways to get into the country which a fence will not thwart. Plus, fences are hugely expensive to build, repair, and replace, and they are environmentally harmful.

Being nice does not work, either. And you cannot patrol enough at the border to make it happen. Nor can we demand paperwork, apparently, because there are so many really good counterfeiters capable of equipping so many people with false papers.

It strikes me that the only way we can do this is to provide every person with an identification card which is as sophisticated as possible to prevent counterfeit cards and also to build a national database of citizenship which those cards must match.

Doing something like that is a huge project, incredibly expensive, and every person in the country would have to participate and do so willingly. Those who refuse would become criminals, and there are certainly a considerable number of people who would wish to refuse. Were it not done in an excellent manner, it would be a disaster and waste of time. Thus, there are severe risks involved. And this does not even consider what to do about the 12 to 15 million or more non-citizens who are already residing here or the desire of industry to hire.

Let us all now pile on.

CAF

Posted by gabby (anonymous) on February 21, 2008 at 6:32 p.m. (Suggest removal)

this is nuts- it sounds like crazy people trying to control this country. we all have to have ID cards, be in a data base, and if we don't agree we would become criminals?

I know there is a problem with illegal immigrants, and it needs to be taken care of, but I will not be staying in my country very long if I am treated like a criminal unless I get an ID card.

Count me out on the -pile on- CAF.

Posted by CAFEmporia (anonymous) on February 21, 2008 at 6:49 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Well, gabby, that's what I mean. How do we control illegal immigration if we cannot positively identify those who are immigrating illegally? The only way I can think of is to compare them to those who are here legally, either born into citizenship or naturalized.

I hate the idea of such ID cards, too. I once made a statement that being free meant being able to get on a bus and go anywhere in the country and feel pretty certain that nobody would know where you are or who you are. I really believed that, too, and still do in a more mature sense. That kind of card would mean a loss of privacy I find nearly intolerable.

One reason for starting this thread is that I could not think of a better, surer way to control immigration. I would sincerely hope you would stay in and provide your thoughts on how it could be controlled.

Posted by create (anonymous) on February 22, 2008 at 9:25 a.m. (Suggest removal)

CAF, would you please clarify your stance here as it relates to refugee resettlement. -- You say, "I think that it has become obvious we as a nation cannot continue to absorb the citizens of other countries indefinitely." BTW, I think I understand what you mean by "let us now all pile on" because you may have started another refugee posting spree. Hopefully this time those that scream bigotry will give it a rest and provide thoughtful solutions instead.

I honor your beginning this thread. This is a subject we need to discuss. While I am not comfortable with the idea of national identification cards, at this point I can think of no other solution. To be sure, many will balk, many will find ways of obtaining counterfeit ID's. For most of my life I have carried a military dependent's ID card; I am required to if I want my benefits, and I must jump through a few hoops when it's time to renew. There doesn't seem to be much in the way of fraud in that system. Surely there must be something about that system that civilians can borrow.

Posted by CAFEmporia (anonymous) on February 22, 2008 at 11:02 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Create; I was not specifically addressing refugee immigration, though that is obviously part of any discussion of immigration policy. And I do not have a solid stance on that. In general, I think we as a nation must remain flexible on questions of allowing refugees entry to our country. Our nearly unlimited entry of refugees from Cuba, as an example, has grown a bit stale and divisive, not to mention grossly hypocritical. Even so, there is often some wisdom in treating refugee problems with a twist of politics. Had we labelled German Jews as political refugees after 1933 when it should have been obvious they were endangered (hindsight), things might be very different today.

Were we to institute a national ID card system, the card would need to be more than a standard card. It would need to be interactive in some ways, include biometric data, and be subject to validation by specific governmental institutions such as police departments, the FBI, INS, and maybe Homeland Security.

That last is where I hear alarms and see red flags. I am fairly liberal by the standards of Kansas, but such an Orwellian amount of oversight and intrusion by the government gives me the creeps.

If we are unwilling to give up that right to personal privacy, though, the option is to allow continued and largely uncontrolled immigration because we are simply unable to adequately identify those who are not citizens. The majority of INS actions against non-citizens (aside from those caught crossing the border) are people who attempted to comply with the law but over-stayed their visa, for instance, and are already identified in the system. At least half of our non-citizens not in compliance with the law are simply unidentified. With a little help, though, they can obtain papers which appear legitimate.

This is one of the reasons I am astonished that people would object to giving undocumented aliens driver's licenses listing them as such. It would give us the ability to identify who is not in legal compliance and, therefore, allow for some control.

I do hope this does not devolve into a discussion of refugees which is a sub-topic to immigration policy.

Posted by roger (anonymous) on February 22, 2008 at 2:07 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I think we could reverse the illegal immigration if we made a mandatory punishment of 6 months of hard labor for being in the country illegally. We could give them a grace period to make their way to the border before the mandatory punishment begins. Also anyone caught employing an illegal immigrant that the government hasn't listed as ok should be fined $50,000 for each count or one year in prison. This would stop employers from aiding illegal immigrants. Once back in their own country they could apply for citizenship if they have no prior charges against them. All states should stop any public assistance for illegal immigrants. They should have to pay a flat tax on any wages earned until they make citizenship when they are allowed to reenter the country.

Posted by create (anonymous) on February 22, 2008 at 4:29 p.m. (Suggest removal)

CAF, thank you for the answer to my question. You made a good example with the German Jews of pre-war Europe. I recall in a non-fiction book titled "Voyage of the Damned" when an entire shipload of Jews was turned away at New York harbor. I was just a kid in junior high when I read that book, but I can still remember the impact of realizing that these desperate people, expecting to gain entry to the U.S., were actually turned away. It was escape to somewhere or the death camps. But when are numbers too many for the United States to support? A line has to be drawn somewhere, especially when so many jobs are being outsourced today.

I like your idea, roger, about fining employers $50 thousand per count, but I'd increase the amount to twice that. Still, people who are here illegally can find ways of hiding themselves and finding employment doing anything. We who live in these wide open spaces on the Plains, probably don't think about how easy it must be to hide in crowded cities.

Posted by CAFEmporia (anonymous) on February 22, 2008 at 5:46 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I appreciate the ideas, too, roger. I'm not happy about putting people in jail, but I appreciate that it could have some success as a deterrent if handled properly. Honestly, I particularly liked your idea of telling someone here without documentation to just head for the border and be done with it. That is a good concept - it allows a miscreant to escape punishment by doing what is desired, anyway. If they don't go, then, well, they must like jail.

Your concept of hitting the employer with a hundred thousand strikes me as extreme, create.

How accurate is that list employers are supposed to check with? I do not know for sure how that works. Even though I have had my own business (very small) and my wife is a principal in a larger business, this is something I really don't know much about.

I was surprised some time ago to learn that a much larger than expected (by me) number of undocumented immigrants worked at Tyson. It had been my very clear understanding that Tyson was trying to be in compliance with the federal government and could provide their own documents showing they had checked each employee. Perhaps I am just naive on some of this.

But it does show how easily people can get into the country and get jobs. If Tyson was making any kind of effort to screen applicants, and if they did receive acceptable information which cleared with the federal government, would those employers still remain liable for punishment?

Posted by roger (anonymous) on February 22, 2008 at 8:02 p.m. (Suggest removal)

If they were cleared by the federal government the employers couldn't be charged. No jail, just hard labor. Maybe building a fence or hiway or cutting weeds.

Posted by create (anonymous) on February 23, 2008 at 8:48 a.m. (Suggest removal)

You're right, CAF, one-hundred thousand dollars does seem a bit extreme, but in view of the many who thumb their nose at current consequences, perhaps a larger fine might get their attention. Look at Tyson. They have been accused time and time again. The class-action lawsuit begun in April 2002 is set to begin retrial on March 8 in Shelbyville TN. We'll have to keep an eye on it. Here's an excerpt from the Shelby-Times Gazette:

"The class-action civil lawsuit was filed in April 2002 by former workers at Tyson plants who are seeking damages for depressed wages that could top $25 million, according to the Chattanooga Times-Free Press. If the plaintiffs win, they could be awarded up to $75 million.

Tyson Foods and six managers were charged criminally in December of 2001 with knowingly hiring illegal workers. Two managers at Shelbyville's Tyson facility pled guilty and were each sentenced to one year of probation and a third committed suicide after the charges were made public."

Suicide! Serious stuff.

You're right about what list companies check. I'm going to ask my daughter, an executive with a large company in Chicago, about how her company protects itself from accidentally hiring undocumented workers. So many have ID cards of some sort.

Posted by create (anonymous) on February 23, 2008 at 9:03 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Here is something we really need to read. It's not that long, but the information is extremely interesting, especially the paragraph on "mass firings"... when the company learned it was the subject of an INS undercover operation. Tell me if any bells began to ring when you read this.

http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?arti...

Posted by kskire (anonymous) on February 23, 2008 at 11:35 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Self deportation is working very well in Arizona and Oklahoma where tough illegal immigration laws have been passed. A source for a lot of information regarding ways to deal with the illegal alien invasion is www.reformkansaslaws.com. One link on that web page is "you don't speak for me" a group of 5000 people of hispanic & latino heritage who are angry at those who have sneaked across our borders breaking our laws and getting benefits & jobs that they have worked many years to get and have done so legally. Quite frankly, if something is not done about illegal immigration our economy will be destroyed. We simply cannot take care of the whole world.

Posted by CAFEmporia (anonymous) on February 23, 2008 at 1:04 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Thank you kskire. I'll look at your link.

create - I read the one you gave and, yes, all kinds of little bells start tinkling. It is bizarre and sad how this system has worked. The Tyson case, which I remember well from when it took place, is a good example of the why and how even though the convictions which should have happened, strangely did not.

As an unnecessary aside, this is also one of the reasons I have opposed Hillary Clinton's bid for the Presidency. While in Little Rock and after, the Clinton's ties to Tyson were fairly strong. It struck me in the 90's that those ties might also be helping to protect Tyson from charges of wrong doing. We don't need change which just changes us back to the way things were done wrong.

Sorry about that digression.

Posted by create (anonymous) on February 23, 2008 at 2:26 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Don't be sorry for digressing; it really does relate in the long run. In fact, your reason for opposing Hillary is the same as mine is. I remembered ties to Tyson during their days as governor and first lady of Arkansas and one other time when Tyson's campaign contribution was questioned because of its size. How else could it be that despite all that evidence there still was delivered a not guilty verdict. I'm glad it's going to retrial. Mass firings and what it does to an entire community sets me to wondering all kinds of things.

Posted by netloafer (anonymous) on February 23, 2008 at 2:49 p.m. (Suggest removal)

CAFEmporia et all

I think there are several elements to the immigration problem. First, there are more than a million illegal immigrants who have been guilty of committing crimes since they've been here. They need to be found and either tried and locked up or deported .

That leaves a huge number of illegals still here. I don't think a border fence is practical. I also don't think identity cards will work...unless there is something tied to them.

One way to tie something like an identity card into something useful is to take those here illegally and give them the one time option. They can choose to take a difficult path to citizenship or they can go back to the country or countries they came from.

I could see something like this happening by offering that path to citizenship tied into becoming a laborer in a WPA type group on a massive scale, that would be tasked with fixing this country's infrastructure, much like this country did with Hoover Dam, the TVA and rural electification, or like Welch Stadium here in Emporia. The one thing that would be significantly different is that these infrastructure investments would be public/private partnerships so that government wouldn't get in the way of efficiencies, economies of scale, etc. Illegals would would agree to be paid a minimum wage for day work, given housing (again like those workers on WPA projects), then required to take classes citizenship, English, American history, technical job skills, social customs, etc at night. At the end of the period they could become U.S. citizens. Each person would also be assigned an American mentor, someone who would work with that person and aid in practical ways to assist in the immigrant's assimiliation. If they did not want to go this route then they would be required to go back to their home countries.

There would be several benefits. First, it would actually be a lower cost option than punitive measures. They would be getting a wage, but they would also be providing measureable output on the job. It would reward honest labor and the study required to become a citizen.

Second, in addition to the jobs provided for the illegals, there would be millions of private sector jobs created to support the effort. In the debates it's been said that for each billion in infrastructure investment would create 50K private sector jobs.

This country's infrastucture is a mess. It's going to take a massive undertaking to fix it. We not only have problems with our roads and bridges, but also with our airports, rail system, etc. Further, there is still great need in cities like New Orleans and other cities (Greensburg) that have been at the epicenter of natural disasters. It seems to me that we have the potential of convergence of labor with a dire national need.

Those are my ideas. They're out there to poke holes in, critique, etc.

Posted by CAFEmporia (anonymous) on February 23, 2008 at 3:33 p.m. (Suggest removal)

kskire: I am still reading. The site you gave is large. Also, there are many other sites (also large) which is often required reading for the site you provided.

Much of what seems to be offered is punitive disenchantments designed to discourage immigrants from coming here in the first place. That may be appropriate or not, I don't know for sure. Not allowing children to be in school punishes the children, not the parents who brought them here, and I find that difficult to swallow. Also, that takes us back to the question of identification. How do you do that with children? Even I could come up with an acceptable facsimile of a birth certificate if I spent a few hours at it.

E-Verify is also a constant factor in all solutions which takes us back to my original thought - that identification is critical to any kind of immigration policy. See: http://epic.org/privacy/surveillance/spo...

I am not saying that is the final word or even the right word, but it contains an intelligent discussion of e-verify and its weakness, drawbacks, and vulnerabilities. The worst of these, I thought, is that it is very vulnerable to fraud as things now stand. At another place, I read that to get it secure and reliable would take another decade. (This was supposed to have been done back in '02 wasn't it?)

Anyway... I will continue reading.

Posted by CAFEmporia (anonymous) on February 23, 2008 at 3:40 p.m. (Suggest removal)

netloafer... very cool. I'm not sure I agree on the details - or some of them - but the idea appeals to me that large government infrastructure programs could be manufactured.

One problem: if all these currently undocumented immigrants go into a program like this, what happens to the jobs they are working at now? Who takes over picking the grapes and cutting the meat? Our unemployment rate is very low even now, so I don't think there are Americans to do those jobs.

Second problem: if these workers are put to work on infrastructure - which most commonly would mean construction jobs, right? - what would happen to the construction company employees already working in such jobs? The company would most probably want to cut their pay if nothing else. Also, there would be many private companies which would suddenly be competing with government type companies. (I could not start one up if only because I couldn't possibly raise the money for all that equipment.)

And, again, there is that pesky identification problem. Can we live with that?

On the other hand, a huge building program (decent pay, though) (please) (or decent bennies) would be a huge economic boon which might well go a long way toward helping us get our deficits under control. This is a very good idea, I think, even if there are some problems associated with it.

Posted by been_there (anonymous) on February 23, 2008 at 6:09 p.m. (Suggest removal)

As far as documentation for getting a job. I know many companies are using the computer system that works WITH the governent to confirm identities of those being hired for jobs using documentation other than a Social Security Card and Photo ID (Drivers license). The problem comes when someone has purchased a Social Security Card and/or Birth Certificate then proceeds to get a State ID issued to them. When an employer has a valid Social Security card and a State issued ID with the same information on it, how are they to know that it is NOT the person that they are claiming to be? To further investigate someone with proper identification would be a harrassment/discrimination law suit for sure. Only with a government issued ID, Resident Card for example, will the employer actually have to match the person to the government database to verify that they are indeed that person.

I also believe we have to put a stop to illegal immigration but am at a loss as to how to achieve this. I would also like to see an end to all the benefits that immigrants of any sort receive from our government. If it wasn't so easy to get into this country and then spend the rest of their lives living off of our systems, it may not be so attractive to them. If my grandparents, my parents and myself have to bust a$$ our entire lives to have any hope of a retirement, then why don't they? How can we keep allowing people into this country and keep giving them the keys to the city?

Posted by Hawk1E (anonymous) on February 25, 2008 at 5:53 a.m. (Suggest removal)

This system that many companies use is a joke, many people are turned away as being illegal when in fact they have gained citizenship before even entering into the US territories, yet are still not in this database.

As far as the illegals go, have we come so far as to have forgotten our own heritage, we too were illegal?! How did we gain citizenship....oh yeah, we created a government, and killed off or relocated everyone who oppressed us...

The most logical way to fix this problem is to absorb Mexico into the United States. This not only gets rid of the "problem" with illegal immigration, but it give us new resources, and new places to create jobs for Americans who have lost theirs to outsourcing. While we are at it lets open our borders to the north, and begin negotiations with them to form a unified country. This would create a new country America.

Taking them back means more will try. Building a wall doesn't work either, the Chinese built a wall to keep the Mongolians out, and it worked for a while, but they just found new ways to get into china. Build a wall here and we will make it harder for a while...

Throwing them in jail... Just costs the taxpayers more money to keep those jails running and feed the inmates. This is much like our little war on drugs. *my digression* make drugs legal, and tax them to death. This would increase money for our government. It also allows us to control them much easier. *back to topic* We jail them for a few years and then send them back out onto our streets until they get caught again. This reminds me of every Wile E. Coyote episode. It gives us something to do and makes us feel good about doing it, be we never actually complete anything, nor do we get to eat the roadrunner for dinner.

The last option that I have heard is to just spend three cents on every illegal immigrant, by shooting them in the heads... I think its pretty clear why this one doesn't work.

So lets start by making getting identification easier, passports have a wait time of some crazy time period. We have to stand in line for hours to get a drivers license. It takes months for a state government office to contact and get information from a different state government office. This identification system that we are trying to put into affect will take years, before they are in place and then....it’s easier to just apply the old fashion way. We are trying to make it easier but we end up making it harder. Lastly it costs well over 100 usd, to apply for citizenship, for many of these people who come here illegally they don't have the money to even apply. So you pay 100 usd, or 1,076.62 peso, to begin the process of becoming a us citizen, only to be denied three years later for some small reason, jay-walking when you were nine, and are you refunded for your attempt....of course not!

Sorry for my late comment to this topic...

Namaste!

Posted by Hawk1E (anonymous) on February 25, 2008 at 6:17 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Also, stop denying americans jobs because they don't speak a second language. If Americans go to another country in Asia or Europe, they are not giving "special treatment with language" in fact most are offended if even asked to speak english. When in Rome do as the Romans. When in France speak French. When in America speak what?! I know this sounds like the single minded American, but I don't see why everyone here should learn to speak another language just to speak to a group of people who came here illegally.

Lastly, on giving them a mandatory six month "job" at minimum wage with benefits. Would only increase our illegal immigration problem. Americans would lose jobs in the "hard labor" industry. If I was guaranteed a job making ten times what I made at home with added benefits, I would jump the border in a heart beat.

Posted by create (anonymous) on February 25, 2008 at 10:40 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I guess ID cards may not be the answer after all. You've got to check out this crazy story.

http://forums.military.com/eve/forums/a/...

Posted by CAFEmporia (anonymous) on February 25, 2008 at 2:50 p.m. (Suggest removal)

create - weird story on that forum, and sad. But it makes a point, too. been_there points out some of the problems, too, that our legal authorities are unable to pursue investigations sometimes because of civil rights issues. And Hawk points out what is probably the best solution, though I really dislike it: joining our country with Mexico.

My deceased father in law pushed that solution, too, and described his reasoning rather convincingly. Mexico is going to have an impossible time moving forward even with NAFTA because of the government corruption and, more, the influence their northern neighbor has upon the criminal elements within their country.

Also, that is the solution Europe found to the problem as each of the countries eliminated the need for passports across mutual borders and formed the EU, which is more or less working out pretty well.

I do not like such solutions because I really would prefer smaller countries with smaller governments. (I recognize the silliness of that statement.)

What else could be done, though? ID cards would be good IF we could find a way to create a process that is accurate and secure, but that is proving an impossibility. Identity theft and multi-person use of identical SSN's is common. Even the e-Verify program is full of holes and leaking at the seams according to what I have read. The fastest it could be put together would be maybe a decade, but even that would be insufficient according to most of the sources I've read.

Posted by roger (anonymous) on February 27, 2008 at 2:38 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I think the only jobs we should give the illegals is hard labor with no pay. There are people here that need jobs and if we're going to pay our taxes to do government projects I would rather pay citizens. Being illegal means they are criminals and criminals should work to pay off a debt, not given a job.

Posted by Hawk1E (anonymous) on February 27, 2008 at 4:21 p.m. (Suggest removal)

even doing that, we take away a paying job from an American citizen.

Posted by create (anonymous) on March 17, 2008 at 5:48 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Some interesting comments in the following article regarding Kansas and Missouri immigration.

http://www.kansas.com/news/legislature/s...

Posted by CAFEmporia (anonymous) on March 20, 2008 at 8:58 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Thanks for posting the article, create. I have been reading similar articles from all across the nation. We (as in all citizens) are conflicted and confounded by this problem. Almost all of us agree that it is, indeed, a serious problem and that we really do need to do something about it, but there are so many different interests involved, most legislatures are stymied or worse, passing laws that cannot be implemented.

One of the worst problems is that what action is being taken is being taken at the state level, not the federal level. Having written all of our elected federal officials from Kansas, not one has responded in a way that causes me to think anything at all will happen this year. Republicans blame Democrats, ignoring that the GOP was in the majority six of the last seven years. Democrats complain that they are unable to gain enough of a majority, and that is more correct. The issue crosses party lines at every point.

I still think the only practical solution is strongly secured ID cards incorporating biological information about the holder issued to every citizen. I'm not sure it could be done, though, honestly.

Posted by create (anonymous) on March 20, 2008 at 9:12 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I'm afraid that even heavily secured ID cards will incur problems with fraud. Perhaps the biological info would prevent it to a point.

Before long, we will be experiencing another May 1st when groups throughout the U.S. will be parading for immigrant rights so this issue will again rise to the very top of the heap.

Oh, and you're right about being conflicted, too.

Posted by create (anonymous) on March 25, 2008 at 7:57 a.m. (Suggest removal)

http://news.yahoo.com/s/usatoday/2008032...

I ran across the above article this morning. I certainly agree that the program needs to be overhauled; we have no need to import fashion models and chefs. Engineers and heart surgeons and nurses, yes. We also need to urge our children into those areas and emphasize math and science programs in our schools.