The Emporia Gazette

HenryVIII (anonymous) says...

A proper place for discussion on religion, god, faith, spirituality, creation, the big bang, evolution, flying spaghetti monster, etc... All comments welcome, but please keep it clean and respectful.
'enry

November 10, 2009 at 3:42 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

HenryVIII (anonymous) says...

Where we left off, oh4theluvof was telling me how God told the Hebrews to treat women as equals and how animals suffer from our sins...
'enry

November 10, 2009 at 3:45 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

oh4theluvof (anonymous) says...

Concerning the animals, in the Creation account we are told that God “saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good” (Genesis 1:31). To be "very good" in the eyes of a perfect God means that it was also perfect. In Genesis 1:29–30 the Lord said, “See, I have given you every herb that yields seed which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed; to you it shall be for food. Also, to every beast of the earth, to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, in which there is life, I have given every green herb for food.”
This would mean that animals didn't eat each other and humans didn't eat them either. In fact, it was was not until after the worldwide Flood of Noah’s Day—1,600 years later—that man was allowed to eat meat, according to Genesis 9:3. [1] This is backed up and further explained in the New Testament:
Romans 5:
12. Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned....
14. Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.
Rom 8:
19. The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed.
20. For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope
21. that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
22. We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time.

[1] http://www.answersingenesis.org/artic...

November 10, 2009 at 10:19 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

oh4theluvof (anonymous) says...

For now, due to time restraints, I am going to cite more recent history than the Old Testament on the influence of God on the treatment of women. On this site, I have found an overview that is much like cultures that persist today, that, not coincidentally, are the sworn enemies of Israel. This was the typical of all documented cultures in that time, except the Hebrew nation.
http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/ancientc...

This info is not hard to back up so I didn't search for specific credentials, but here are some excerpts for comparison's sake.
"Once a woman was married her husband controlled all property. Any property that she might have inherited would go directly to her husband. She had no rights to wander about the town, without a just cause. Any respectable woman would not be seen in public. Greek women had virtually no political rights of any kind and were controlled by men at all stages of their lives.
Women had very few rights, let alone legal rights. They had no rights to vote or take part in the operation of the state.
Women were viewed as highly sexual beings who could not control their sexual urges and therefore had to be restricted for their own benefit.
Euripides from his book ‘ Meda’ writes; ‘If only children could be got some other way without the female sex! If women didn’t exist, human life would be rid of all its miseries’. These two authors depict the most constant view of women in ancient times. Most men felt that women were only necessary to produce children.
Many scenes on Greek Pottery depicted women. Many of these women were either dancing girls or prostitutes. This shows that men had little respect for this class of women, as they are pictured as slaves to men’s desires."

In contrast, Paul wrote to the churches:
Ephisians 5:
25. Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her
28. In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.
29. After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church—
30. for we are members of his body.
31. "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.

Colossians 3:
19. Husbands, love your wives and do not be harsh with them.

1 Peter 3:
7. You husbands in the same way, live with your wives in an understanding way, as with someone weaker, since she is a woman; and show her honor as a fellow heir of the grace of life, so that your prayers will not be hindered.
(not saying that she is weaker, but as a simile to help them understand what kind of gentleness to use---focus on showing her honor as a fellow heir=equality in God's kingdom)

This was after the Hebrew people had rejected Christ as the Messiah, so there is a timeline differential, but I will provide earlier anthropological accounts when I have more time to locate the material.

November 10, 2009 at 11:12 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

oh4theluvof (anonymous) says...

I can see how this ties into the "prosperity gospel" of today, but I don't see how this ties into the ancient world. I am curious how that would apply to the formation of the Hebrew nation and then to the early Christians, a very poor and outcast group of people, many of whom became martyrs.

On a side, note, while there is adequate information on the military conquests and family successions in Ancient Persia, there is not a lot of recorded information on the treatment or even the existence of women, outside of the era of Cyrus and Darius--which indicates a level of honor for royal women--and the era of Xerxes--in which he executed his first queen for a mild disobedience. The Torah actually has more pertinent information on those items then the document studies that I can find, indicating that women were valued more by God than by the leaders and historians of the heathen cultures but that those events which were more thoroughly recorded in the Torah, did make some kind of local impact to also warrant recordings by the scribes of Persia. I am continuing to look online for Roman, Persian and Greek accounts during the centuries BC.

November 11, 2009 at 4:30 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

oh4theluvof (anonymous) says...

By "heathen" I mean not believing in the Hebrew God. Another word would be "pagan" (probably more fitting) which your link used for the Celtic culture. Nothing offensive or judgmental intended.

The problem I am finding with this Celtic history is its lack of manuscript evidence. I understand that some believe the same about the Bible also, but the most of the original New Testament manuscripts were dated closely enough to the event dates that there would have been people still alive who could and would have disputed it in writing, given their animosity. As the animosity has been preserved, the disputing writings would have been preserved as well. The oldest known New testament copies are newer than the original autograph by 250 years or less in contrast with our oldest known copy of Homer's "Iliad" which is 500 years younger than its original. Not only are there are no documents from those centuries that dispute it, historically, there are many that verify it. For instance, the time line through the Old Testament book of Daniel regarding the Persian rulers, their beginnings and their endings are all verified by Persian historical records.
There is also the issue of the high number of Biblical manuscripts that are in agreement with each other......even the ones with the 1,000 year gap between them.
These Celtic records weren't put into writing until 500 or 600 years after the culture was assimilated into Rome. That doesn't allow for verifiability, nor did any other cultures record their existence during the time they were supposed to have existed. Knowing that the treatment and view of women in Rome at that time and beyond was almost identical to those of Greece, I have to question how such a strong feminine culture would come to merge into it. I would also have to question where the Roman historical records of that century refer to it. It would seem that there would have been some kind of political upset with two such opposite cultures involved.

November 11, 2009 at 10:23 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

I am finding this discussion between YY4U and oh4theluvof (two of the most well-read and intelligent posters on here in my opinion) to be very interesting and informative. I am staying largely out of it because at present I don't know enough about the topic to respond intelligently.

I have heard and read often that Christian doctrine did undergo significant re-write during the dark and middle ages as the various "power popes" of the era and other kings and princes more or less reinvented much of the original writings to bring them more in line with what ever agenda they were pushing at the moment. Much of that had to do with bringing the teachings of science in line with the teaching of the church. Those efforts set up some problems that some churches are still trying to deal with today where religious belief stands in stark contrast with the teachings of science.

This has at times left some religious leaders pretty far out on a limb with absurdities like claiming that dinosaurs never existed because they weren't mentioned in the bible. This type of teaching I believe has done as much harm as anything in bringing much of religion into a certain loss of respect. All of this of course is just my opinion based on some things I have seen and read that I can't provide links to which in some people's mind makes it then worthless. Would be interested in hearing the take of others on some of this.

I know....if this is staying out of it you would hate to see how much I wrote if I was in it....right? :-)

November 12, 2009 at 4:06 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

HenryVIII (anonymous) says...

oh4theluvof,
First of all, you are basing your entire argument on a book of stories that hasn’t been proven to be non-fiction. I am basing my point of view on scientific facts and first-hand observations. Imagine trying to win a case in court when your only evidence is a collection of stories that is over 2000 years old and has been translated (re-written) numerous times. People write fictional books all the time, so unless you can prove its contents are really factual, it holds no weight in an argument. Why do you think the Christian Bible is true, but other religious documents (some of which are much older) aren’t?

After reading your posts, I have a few questions for you.
1) If humans weren’t meant to eat meat, why do we have teeth that are made for it? Did we used to have all flat teeth like a cow and have evolved to have the teeth that are made for plant and meat intake? If we were originally made in God’s image, did he have flat teeth like a cow?

2) Do you really think Noah was able to fit 2 of every animal, insect, etc on one boat? What about animals/bacteria that reproduce asexually? Did they take one or two of them? Is it possible the authors back then just didn’t realize how many species existed on the planet and that it would be impossible to accomplish such a task?

3) The Bible is full of quotes that portray women as inferior. What say you of this?
"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."
(I Corinthians 14:34-35)

"But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God."
(I Corinthians 11:3)

"Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything."
(Ephesians 5:22-24)

'enry

November 12, 2009 at 9:32 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

HenryVIII (anonymous) says...

To me, religion is simply a way for people to “write-off” the unexplainable. It’s a convenient excuse for something they don’t know the answer to. Back in the day, people were simple-minded and thought, “Well, the Earth had to come from somewhere, so this God character must have done it.“ Never mind the fact they can’t explain where God came from. When people question your faith and ask, “If God is so magical, why do we have to eat other creatures to survive?” The “faithful” respond with, “Well it’s our fault because we sinned or something and that ticked God off, so he makes use eat animals now.” Yet another excuse for something they don’t have the answer to. I would like to think we have came a long way since then, but people still use religion as an easy excuse rather than try to find any real answers.
‘enry

November 12, 2009 at 9:32 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

methusla (anonymous) says...

I did take a course on " Religions of the world " in college and man, I am staying completely out of this discussion !

November 12, 2009 at 9:50 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

methusla (anonymous) says...

However, I will offer this this bit of information :
A religion is a system of human thought which usually includes a set of narratives, symbols, beliefs and practices that give meaning to the practitioner's experiences of life through reference to a higher power, deity or deities, or ultimate truth.[1] Religion is commonly identified by the practitioner's prayer, ritual, meditation, music and art, among other things, but more generally is interwoven with society and politics. It may focus on specific supernatural, metaphysical, and moral claims about reality (the cosmos and human nature) which may yield a set of religious laws, ethics, and a particular lifestyle. Religion also encompasses ancestral or cultural traditions, writings, history, and mythology, as well as personal faith and religious experience.

This will be my only post on this subject !

November 12, 2009 at 10:03 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

HenryVIII (anonymous) says...

Good post, methusla. “Religion” is a pretty general term and I think your post explains it well.

Questions for others to encourage participation:
1) Why do you go to church? Because it is expected of you? Because your parents did? To teach your children good values? To socialize? To worship an elusive deity you've only read stories of?

2) Do you think the Bible is 100% factual?

3) Of all the religions in the world, why do you think yours is the "right one"?

4) I've know some people who are against things like dancing, eating pork, and getting tattoos due to their religious beliefs. Do you really think God cares about such things?

I don't care if you are spiritual; I think it's good to have an open mind about what is "out there". What gets me is when people are so specific about what you can and can't do in God's eyes. Until God comes down and tells us what we should and shouldn't do, I don't think we can make assumptions on what is allowed and what isn't. Since we have no proof that the Bible is true, I don't think people should put so much faith in it. If we have really gone so far astray, you'd think God would intervene every 100 years or so to get us back on track. I mean, it’s not the later generations fault for their ancestors not relaying the message well enough. Doesn’t really seem fair to people being born today.
Back in the day, why did God only talk to people in a specific part of the world? I think the spread of Christianity would have been much more effective if he had visited people in every country. Being all-powerful, one would think he could just "open a channel" to directly to everyone's minds. Sort of a mass broadcast kind of thing... That's what I'd do if I cared about my creation.
'enry

November 12, 2009 at 12:01 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

HenryVIII (anonymous) says...

I hear that, YY4U! You have to remember, though, that these Christians think they are doing God's work by "spreading" (forcing) God's word. Since they are on a mission from God, they must be right! ... Except for the fact that they can't prove that God actually wants them to do that...hmmm... Seems like more assumption than fact as to what God wants them to do, if you ask me.

Christianity didn't spread as much as it did because it made more sense than the other religions. The only reason it is as popular as it is now is because the people with all the swords/guns said it made more sense.
'enry

From an episode of “Family Guy”:
Brian: Do you really think that splashing "magic water" on Stewie is gonna keep him out of hell?
Francis: Shut your heathen trap, or else you'll be gettin' a taste of me fist!
Brian: That's very Christian. "Believe what I say, or I'll hurt you".
Francis: Now you're getting it! (Punches Brian)

November 12, 2009 at 1:24 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

oh4theluvof (anonymous) says...

biscuitboy:
Thank you for your kind compliment...it is good to know that when I am posting a statement that has likely taken a couple of hours to compose between household duties (hey, isn't that where all of this started? ;-) and attentions to the kids, after a couple of hours of equally scattered searches for online resources, that they come out intelligently. By that time, mine brain feels like so much mush from the constant changing of modes that I am hard pressed to proof read....which comes naturally. Thak you for bring up the word "pope" in your post. That helped me click with the position that YY was coming from with the exchange of valuables for appeasements as it has happened in "Christianity." There was much of this practiced by the "pagan" cultures and their gods, according to the Bible, but I had forgotten about Catholicism. Both your reminder and the post by methusla defining "religion" causes me to need to clarify something. I am coming from the Protestant side of Christianity, as I do not believe that the Catholic church has held true to the Torah and the New Testament accounts and letters. Thank you both for causing me to clarify that.

Henry:
I thoroughly anticipated that your criticism would be my belief in the Bible, but you are the one who opened this thread up after I said that if you REALLY wanted to know the answers to the questions you asked.
-You wanted to know when God gave instructions about the treatment of women when humans weren't and I told you.
-You wanted to know how the killing of animals fit into the design God had and I told you.
-You asked me why I don't believe that other religious documents are true (an assumption on your part) but I can't really answer you without knowing what, specifically, you are talking about. Individual documents come with individual "proofs."
(cont)

November 12, 2009 at 6:29 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

oh4theluvof (anonymous) says...

(cont)
-You have stated numerous times that "Evolution has been proven," and that you are "basing [your] point of view on scientific facts and first-hand observations." You also asked me to imagine being in court with 200 year old evidence. To that, I reply that my evidence is newer than yours by billions of years, mine involves many people after the first six days who are attesting to the consistency and trustworthiness of the One who is telling us about the first six days, and no, the evolution THEORY has not been proven or witnessed. (are you a Darwinian theorist, btw?)
-You question who God is and why He does what He does, why He does, but the only book that claims to be the inspired Word from Him that would, logically, be the only way to answer these questions, you throw out. You will never get your answers this way, but that's okay because you only ask the questions to argue against it....not to really know.
-The Bible hasn't proven to be fiction either, so the burden of proof lies on the one questioning it...prove that it's fiction
I will work on typing the answers to the more specific questions you posed as time permits, hopefully this evening so you can read them after work.

YY4U:
You and Henry both indicate a lot of antagonism and bitterness against "Christians." I can't possibly defend them each just because that's what they called themselves. My initial response to that is much like how I answer my kids about stuff they hear. "Just because they say it doesn't mean it's true." I would have to weigh each person's statement against what the Bible said to know if they truly follow Christianity or if they just claim the name like the Crusaders did.

If I wanted to be more popular and accepted in this world, I would readily abandon my faith, as it is very unpopular with the majority of the population. Peer pressure and acceptance isn't a valid argument for Christianity in America anymore. It certainly doesn't score points in China, and yet there are new converts there every day who risk and often lose their lives in doing so. Why would that be?

November 12, 2009 at 6:30 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

HenryVIII (anonymous) says...

oh4theluvof,
Evolution has been proven. Things evolve all the time. Has your doctor ever told you not to take antibiotics when you don’t need them? Do you know why you shouldn’t? It’s because the bacteria and whatever else that makes you sick will evolve to become resistant to the antibiotics. When people use antibiotics when they aren’t necessary, it’s forcing these germs to become stronger and stronger in order to survive. That has been proven to happen and that is evolution. Why has the average height of humans been steadily increasing? Evolution, my friend. It’s a fact.
While there is a lot of scientific evidence to support Darwin’s Theory of Evolution, we haven’t really been able to prove how exactly life got started on our planet. Then again, I didn’t claim this theory has been proven. Evolution and the Theory of Evolution are two different things.

You said, “only book that claims to be the inspired Word from Him that would, logically, be the only way to answer these questions”. … Only book? Really? What about the Koran? What about the stories of Greek gods? It may be the “only book” in your mind, but that’s only because it’s the one you choose to believe.

You said, “The Bible hasn't proven to be fiction either, so the burden of proof lies on the one questioning it”…. Ok. I have just written a short story that says life begun on Earth as a result of aliens dumping waste from their spaceships as they flew by. My story hasn’t been proven to be fiction, so you MUST believe it. See how silly that sounds?

I really do want to know the answers, but I don’t think I’ll find them amongst the opinions of the authors of the Bible. I’m not saying I have all the answers, I’m just saying you haven’t given me good reason to believe your answers. To believe you, I need proof or some kind of evidence that the Bible is true … and you can’t just say that the Bible is true because it says so in the Bible…
‘enry

November 13, 2009 at 10:34 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

HenryVIII (anonymous) says...

For the science folks:
What existed before The Big Bang? Where did the very first atoms come from? How big is the Universe? What is beyond the Universe? Do you think these answers are revealed when we die? Do you think animals ever question their existence and if not, why do humans?

For the God squad:
Where did God come from? Why did he create millions of planets and only one with life on it? Why doesn't God communicate with us? Why does God need us to worship him? Why did God create the Earth with buried dino bones in it? Why did God make life so fragile? What is "God's plan" and why does it involve bad things happening to good people?
'enry

November 13, 2009 at 2:01 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

oh4theluvof (anonymous) says...

I forgot something in my earlier post. biscuitboy, your "staying out of it" method cracked me up!!! I was completely able to laugh with you on that and relate very well to it. :-)

I also didn't get that proofreading done and my grammatical errors were just plain embarrassing when I went back later to read it and see if it was adequate to convey what I had hoped. It was......barely.

YY4U, no worries on my part. I answered you for the sake of discussion because I'm just here for a conversation. I am not trying to convince anyone, but just to answer any questions I feel I can and maybe to ask a few of my own. Whether you believe in God or not is totally between you and Him and I am happy to leave that up to Him because:
1 Thessalonians 4:8 -- So, he who rejects this is not rejecting man but the God who gives His Holy Spirit to you.
No one here is either accepting me or rejecting me personally......maybe on other threads, but not here :-)

Henry, you are asking questions (which I welcome) faster than I can find the time to sit at the computer and type back......busy week here plus I'm not the fastest typist and I am a perfectionist (not perfect, just aim to be) about my sentence structure, punctuation and spelling.
(cont)

November 13, 2009 at 4:23 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

oh4theluvof (anonymous) says...

(cont)
In reply to your questions from yesterday's 9:32 am post:

1) There are many varieties of animals that have teeth that would appear to be carnivorous and yet, they are strictly vegetarian. Some examples would be most bats, monkeys and lizards. There are also many animals that do eat meat that we only think of as carnivorous that actually eat mostly fruits, berries and grains. Some examples there are those are bears and coyotes. These animals evidence that the same teeth that allow us to tear into meat, also allow us to bite into uncut fruits and vegetables (think apples, peaches, carrots, potatoes). The existence of these teeth do not evidence meat eating.
http://www.answersingenesis.org/tj/v5...

2) "Another factor which greatly reduces the space requirements is the fact that the tremendous variety in species we see today did not exist in the days of Noah. Only the parent “kinds” of these species were required to be on board in order to repopulate the earth. For example, only two dogs were needed to give rise to all the dog species that exist today.
As stated before, Noah wouldn’t have taken the largest animals onto the Ark; it is more likely he took juveniles aboard the Ark to repopulate the earth after the Flood was over. These younger animals also require less space, less food, and have less waste."
http://www.answersingenesis.org/artic...
(cont)

November 13, 2009 at 4:23 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

oh4theluvof (anonymous) says...

(cont)
3). First, let's address the wives being in subjection to their husbands. This was said as a precursor to the instruction to the men on how to love their wives. Now, these were converts from those Greek cultures like the Athenians that I referenced in an earlier post. If the women heard the instructions to the men first, they would have been so joyfully emotional that they may have missed their own instructions. If not for the instructions to the women first, the men would have likely been overwhelmed by the sense of chaos that would have ensued from both sides with this drastic change of concepts. God was outlining that He has an order of authority/responsibility. First the Father, then Jesus the Son, then the man, then the woman. While this places the woman in the last place of authority (she still has authority, but only over the children) it also places her in the most protected and provided for place of authority. Paul outlines in those same letters the way Christ has cared for the church (giving up His life for, providing for) and then instructs the men to do the same things for their wives. It is impossible to receive teaching and love, however, from someone you are trying to dominate, making submission a positive. There are also instructions in Ephesians 5:21 for all believers to be subject to each other, but within marriage and the home, there needs to be an order of accountability. The man is more accountable to Christ, therefore, just like in any employment or governmental structure, he is more responsible for the care and over-seeing of those who bear less direct responsibility. It is made more intimate and protective than a job or government by the instructions for the men to love and be gentle with their wives.
So, as for the instructions for order within the church assembly, that same order of responsibility and authority becomes a bit more structured. Not only are foreigners who speak a different language to only participate in speaking to the assembly if there is an interpreter, but the women aren't to speak to the assembly. This was to be a formal time of sharing among the teachers and prophets with an audience, but the men of the audience were to also be allowed limited participation to provide clarity on what was being taught. I don't know how often you have been in a group of women, but we have a tendency to dominate conversation (is this thread any indication?? :-) It says that this is for the purpose of order so all could benefit, so if a woman had a question about what was being said, she needed to ask her husband who would be responsible for having or finding the answer to provide her. The women were not to offer revelations (speeches) so the authority wouldn't change hands from the men to whom God had given the responsibility to be accountable and so that everyone would have time to speak.

November 13, 2009 at 4:26 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

oh4theluvof (anonymous) says...

Okay, I finally caught up with some of this conversation in reply. Here goes, Henry (and others):

"These bacteria are being studied by evolutionary scientists with the hope that they will reveal secrets as to how molecules-to-man evolution could have happened. (so this hasn't yet been proven if they are still trying to link it accurately---to know what an accurate link is, read on)
'Bacteria that are resistant to modern antibiotics have even been found in the frozen bodies of people who died long before those antibiotics were discovered or synthesized.'- Thompson, Burt, Bacterial antibiotic resistance­: proof of evolution? www.apologeticspress.org/articles/439

The mechanisms of mutation and natural selection aid bacteria populations in becoming resistant to antibiotics. However, mutation and natural selection also result in bacteria with defective proteins that have lost their normal functions.

Evolution requires a gain of functional systems for bacteria to evolve into man—functioning arms, eyeballs, and a brain, to name a few.
Mutation and natural selection, thought to be the driving forces of evolution, only lead to a loss of functional systems. Therefore, antibiotic resistance of bacteria is not an example of evolution in action but rather variation within a bacterial kind."
http://www.answersingenesis.org/artic...
Virtually all observed mutations are in the category of loss of information.

DNA mutation or dominant genetics easily account for the increase in height. In a world that is becoming increasingly populated and crowded, would this classify as an evolution?

November 14, 2009 at 2:06 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

oh4theluvof (anonymous) says...

The claim to divinity is, as you said, in the Koran....my mistake. However, the discovery of the dead Sea Scrolls have proven that the Hebrew Torah/Christian Old Testament retained their accuracy at an almost perfect level (minor misspellings or subject/modifier reversals found to not compromise textual meaning) while the Koran did not fare so well in the comparisson. As they both claim to be the translations of the same writings and the Koran hasn't been found to be older than any of the translations that we had prior to the 1947 discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, I have to remain faithful to The Bible.
I have found this allegation, but am unable to verify context as I cannot seem to find my way around the Koran, despite the reference given, either in online translations, nor the print copy we have. Therefore, I will not try to state it as fact, but throw it out there for those who may be able to check it for themselves.
"Also, such religious writings contain contradictions within themselves that are unanswerable without gymnastics of logic. In the Koran, one passage says Jesus will be with God in paradise (Sura 3:45) and another states that He will be in hell for being worshiped by Christians (Sura 21:98)."

November 14, 2009 at 2:07 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

oh4theluvof (anonymous) says...

I, personally, have never found the Bible to contradict itself despite having passages thrown at me from others who assumed that they did. Like the passages about the role of women, you must read all of what the author said to know if it is truly contradictory. Those same concepts are usually repeated in other passages, but even if never repeated, still supported conceptually and never disputed by the others.
I will readily concede that the beginning point of view (presupposition) determines the outcome of logic on all of our parts. The Bible says that God has chosen, in His authority, to use faith as the vehicle of His relationship with us.
Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.
Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
If He is God, He has that authority. The Bible says that He speaks to our hearts rather than our minds and that He doesn't use the intelligent things of this world to show HImself.
1 Corinthians 1:27 "but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong,"
If He used the things we could see, touch, taste, smell or feel, that would mean He wasn't using faith because there is no faith involved in what we can use our senses to determine. The point that you have made about conviction not being found in science is a consistency with what the Bible says. I personally, in believing that He created science, don't see anywhere that proven science has ever contradicted the Bible. I see where human theories have contradicted the Bible and I see where humans have made false statements about what the Bible does or does not say (the Bible probably confirms but does not deny dinosaurs), but I have never seen an actual verifiable contradiction.
At the point of seeing that you will not find absolute proof of God in science, I guess you are left with the testimonies of the people who claim relationships with Him through His Holy Spirit and the inner changes that they attest to.
1 Corinthians 2:14 "But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised."
Hebrews 11:3 By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible.

(I quote the Bible frequently to show the consistency it has throughout the various human authors of different countries and time lines, including the book of Hebrews, whose human author remains unknown, but the text was determined and has been maintained as inerrant with the rest of Scripture and also to show how points made to be against it also show its consistency with the world throughout the centuries of the world.)

November 14, 2009 at 2:07 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

oh4theluvof (anonymous) says...

Well, it would appear that everyone else has tired of this thread, but I had one more thought that I wanted to throw out there.
Every time a person learns about something that God is reported to do or be, they say,"Well, if I were a 'perfect God,' I would..............(fill in the blank). Over the generations of people, their proposed methodology has reflected their life experience (many similarities in everyones' ideas) and yet, no one has ever thought that the way God did it would be the way they would choose...including me. To me, this is a testament to the consistency, power, knowledge and authority of God. In this light, it is impossible for me to resist the message of His Son dying on the cross to rescue me from the eternal separation that my inherited sin would result in.

November 15, 2009 at 1:44 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

'enry

I'm impressed. You have stated my questions and doubts about religion much better than I could have done it myself. I have gained new respect for you! The only place where we may differ on this subject appears to be in the level of antagonism we feel towards Christians themselves.

oh4theluvof

To quote YY4U, "you are so cool"......you do an absolutely beautiful job of defending an indefensible position. You should have been an attorney. I do mean that as a compliment.

November 16, 2009 at 6:52 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

HenryVIII (anonymous) says...

Thanks, biscuitboy. Part of the reason I started this thread was to get a sense of where my neighbors stood on this issue. It's good to know I'm not alone!

oh4theluvof,
I want you to know I'm not ignoring your posts. I have read them and I appreciate your responses, I just don't know exactly how to respond.
'enry

November 16, 2009 at 4:04 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

Interest in this thread does appear to have faded so I may well be preaching to myself here.....but I wanted to elaborate on my continued hope that believers and non-believers can somehow learn to coexist. (Incidentally, I love those bumper stickers. Does anybody know where I could buy one?)

I do not begrudge religion's place in the world to do what I believe it does best. In fact I value its place to bring comfort, value, a sense of direction and validity to millions of people who would be hard pressed to cope without its help. I'm not at all sure the world would be a better place without any religion. I, like many non-believers, are non-believers because we lack one essential element to become a believer.....belief.

The problem then starts with religions exclusivity. When one religion begins to believe that it is the only true path to the only true God is where the trouble lies. Because within that believe is where justification is found to banish and or kill the heretics. Within more modern times.....(within Christianity any way).....this has become more likely to be seen in attempts to pass laws mandating adherence to Christian principals if not a believe in them, As mentioned earlier, Christianity and Islam are the two religions most likely to hold these proprietary beliefs.

My question then is can religion give the sense of hope and belonging that is needed in our world without the exclusivity.....without the believe that it is somehow the only true path? If it can't then my fear becomes can we ever expect to live in common harmony with it? Then if we can't live with it...will we be able to survive with out it?

These are the kind of things that can keep you up at night,,,, :-)

November 17, 2009 at 7:14 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

methusla (anonymous) says...

I swore, that I would not get in on this discussion, but I do have a question !
Does one have to be a religious person or subscribe to any particular religion, such as Catholisism, Hinduism Bhuddisn, Islamism, etc., inorder to have faith or believe ?
My whole phylosophy on this is No, one does not have to subscribe or belong to any particular religion to have " Faith " or " Believe " !
This will be my only comment on this subject !

November 17, 2009 at 7:58 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

HenryVIII (anonymous) says...

biscuitboy,
True, religion may be a useful function to society. Religion gives people an incentive to have morals. It works like a boogeyman story works for kids. Parents will say, "Do your chores or the boogeyman will get you." Similar to the Santa Claus story..."Be a good little twerp or Santa won't bring you presents."
The same can be said for most religions... "Be a good person or you go to Hell." Or "Be a good person so you can go to Heaven." Or "Be a good person so you can have lots of virgins in the afterlife."
The problem is that these "morals" don't always jive with everyone. Some Christians think they should preach God's word to everyone and "convert" as many people as possible to gain God's favor. Other religions think they should fly planes into skyscrapers to gain God's favor. These two examples of "doing God's work" might irritate (to say the least) other people who don't agree with their religion.

methusla,
I would tend to agree. I think we'd be better off if people didn't subscribe to one particular faith and, instead, kept an open mind about all the possibilities.
'enry

November 17, 2009 at 8:53 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

HenryVIII (anonymous) says...

YY4U,
"looked into his sole" How does one do this? What is a soul, anyway? Animals reproduce; do they have souls?

I'm not really trying to "convert" people to my way of thinking; I'm just asking them to have an open mind and actually question their beliefs once and awhile instead of blindly following them. I'm not saying people should believe exactly what I do; I just don't understand how they know with 100% certainty that they're right.
'enry

P.S. Apparently, I love using semi-colons…sorry…

November 17, 2009 at 10:45 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

HenryVIII (anonymous) says...

"Of course animals have a soul; soul that is being punished or rewarded for deeds in a previous life"

Could you reference your source of this information? Has this been proven? I would wager that there are billions more animals/insects/bacteria/plants with the will to survive than there have ever been humans. Does each little amoeba and ant have a soul? Trees are living things that do whatever they can to survive; do they have souls as well? How do you know you are seeing someone's soul when you look at 'em? Does it sparkle or something?
'enry

November 17, 2009 at 11:48 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

Why is it necessary for any one to convert any one else? Why can't you believe what you want while I believe what I want and neither of us criticize or try to dissuade the other from feeling that way? Now I realize scenarios could be dug up where there could be a clash of ideologies but I also believe most of these are manufactured problems that could be avoided by people committed to coexistence.

I agree that many atheist seem to be as hot for conversion as the most fundamental Christians and tend to worship atheism with equal fervor. That's why I prefer to call myself a non-believer. I don't necessarily believe there is no God with any more zeal than I believe in any God that has ever been presented to me so far. That however does not mean that I can not look into the eyes of a new baby, a full grown man, or my dog and not see its soul. That magic of life may really be as far as we really need to look to find God. All the rest is baggage that has been added on by man. JMO

November 17, 2009 at 12:44 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

HenryVIII (anonymous) says...

biscuitboy,
I don't like to be called an atheist either. Atheists insist there is no god. I don't claim to know that there is or isn't. I just don't think any of the popular religions have proof to justify their claims. It sounds like you and I fit the following:
According to Webster:
Agnostic - A person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god.

YY4U,
So...when I throw a grasshopper in a pond and it trys to kick its way to land before a fish eats it, that means the grasshopper has a soul? Does HIV, H1N1, and other viruses have souls? Viruses do quite a bit in order to survive... Or perhaps the struggle to survive may just be a reaction (or instinct) that has been bred into most lifeforms as a means of self preservation. After all, not many species would last very long if the creature didn’t care if it lived or not. This may have more to do with natural selection and evolution than you think.
I'm not saying I know for a fact that I don't have a soul, I'm asking you how you know (without a doubt) we do.

Not very nice to tell me to drowned myself… Here's some more of your logic: Wood floats on water. Ducks also float on water (not very small rocks), so if a girl weighs the same as a duck, she must be made of wood and therefore she’s a witch and you should burn her because that’s what you do with wood.
'enry

November 17, 2009 at 1:52 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

methusla (anonymous) says...

Wow, now you know why I am staying out of this debate !

November 17, 2009 at 2:28 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Nobody (anonymous) says...

Henry, you are a mess most of the time but I've enjoyed your questions on this thread. I just wish I would have thought of those questions to ask the nuns who taught me back in the 60's. I still say there should be Catholics Anonymous because they teach through guilt trips and some brain washing. Extremely hard to rid yourself of as an adult with a mind of your own.

November 17, 2009 at 2:38 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

HenryVIII (anonymous) says...

Nobody,
Thanks, I think... Please pardon my mess.
'enry

November 17, 2009 at 2:46 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

I found my special purpose once......then I lost it... :-)

November 17, 2009 at 5:11 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

oh4theluvof (anonymous) says...

I see there is some participation here after all. biscuit, thanks for the compliment, but I don't think I could come up with the ambition to be a lawyer. I am just flexing my "intellect muscle," so to speak, a little bit, here on a subject I do have a passion for.
I was thinking of this this morning, and will share, hopefully briefly. Fortunately, there has been further expounding on the question in my absence to help me say what I was thinking about.
-From Henry, "Some Christians think they should preach God's word to everyone and "convert" as many people as possible to gain God's favor."
-From biscuitboy, "Why is it necessary for any one to convert any one else?"

There are many forms of distortion that have given evangelism a bad name, along with the fact that there will always be those who adamantly oppose it and will slander it at any given opportunity.
Speaking only from my perspective of what I have personally read in the Bible, of course, the preaching and conversion is not to gain God's favor, but to show thankfulness to Him by sharing with the ones He loves and died for.
Knowing what the Bible actually instructs can help us to not represent it poorly: that is, that God was separated from His creation that He loved by sin, which is a breach of perfect law. With no consequences yet paid, He would be unable to live together with us in the same way that a law abiding citizen cannot stay as such while keeping close company with a guilty, fugitive criminal. Knowing that none of us could overcome the legal penalty that justice demanded, which was our eternal separation from Him and all things that are of Him, aka, death and hell, He sent His Son to take the sentence. Once I, as a believer, have accepted this and have a full understanding of both His love and His sacrifice, I am to realize that it was not done only for me, but for all who will believe. I don't know who will or won't, but I am not to be selfish and prideful about it. I am to sacrifice my own pride and popularity to lovingly share it with everyone. If I don't do this, I am not being thankful for or humbled by His act of love.
(cont)

November 17, 2009 at 5:27 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

oh4theluvof (anonymous) says...

(cont)
Yes, there are many who become prideful and arrogant "religious right fighters" who don't display love when they preach at others about their sin condition, but the messenger delivering it the wrong way doesn't nullify or invalidate the message or change the recipient's status. At the same time, there are many people who don't like being told they need forgiveness no matter how lovingly it's said, and they choose to take it as a hateful or judgmental message----much like we see children (especially teenagers) choose to be angry and claim that their parents are being controlling when they are told that the choices they are making are harmful. So if a Christian is not telling you about Jesus, they are really being arrogant and selfish with His gift.

Well, this was the shortest summary I could do of this without leaving out key elements. I hope this helps your understanding of the intended function of telling others about the gospel of Christ. As I said, I cannot speak for other religions or those that have altered the Bible but still claim Christianity.

November 17, 2009 at 5:27 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

oh4theluvof

The message does some times get lost with the messenger on both sides of the fence. There are indeed those Christians that can share the message in a loving caring way, and at the same time show similar respect for my feelings and beliefs. I believe I know those type of people when I see them....My brother is one, the minister of the Episcopalian Church here in Emporia (his name slips my mind at present) is another, and there are many many more. Though they recognize there God as the real God they are willing to respect and honor those who think differently. These are the Christians I admire and respect and want to coexist with.....not the my way or the highway. love my Jesus or I will kill you, types that so often grab all the attention.

In my world, all non-believers would approach Christians with the same respect and dignity. But alas...I can not control the actions of other non-believers any more than you can control the actions of all those who profess to be Christian.

One quick addition to my previous statement about being able to see the soul by looking into someones eyes. If you have ever looked into someones eyes at the moment they were dying you will know exactly what I mean. The fire goes out.

November 18, 2009 at 10:44 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

methusla (anonymous) says...

Again, I know I said I would not get in on this discussion, but after reading the posts, I just have to get this off my chest !
My Mother and Father, God bless them, were both wonderful people, although they did not attend any particular church or subscribe to or embrace any particular religion or phylosophy!
However, one could tell by looking into their eyes that something was special about them, I know that by the way they lived their lives, treated and respected other people and their beliefs and lives, I know that thru this and my faith and belief, which I got from my Mother and Father, that they both are with God and Jesus in paradise ( Heaven ) and am trying with all my might and with the grace of God to be like them !
Thank You and may God bless us all !

November 18, 2009 at 11:30 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

create (anonymous) says...

What a warm-hearted thing to say, methusla. You have impressed me.

As have you, Henry. I often disagree with you, and have even called you a jerk a time or two, but I find your discussions here to be interesting and engaging.

At the beginning of this thread, I avoided it because discussions of religion often go awry. But this one was kept at a good level. Thanks to all of you. I've enjoyed reading this very much.

Again methusla, I really like what you said. I wish all children could have good parents by which to pattern themselves.

Another thing I do fervenly wish is that people not use their religious ideology like weapons. We know this to be true historically from such events as the Crusades and what happened to the peoples of the new world after discovery to name a couple. We have experienced the hatred first hand when those planes slammed into the towers. We have also witnessed up close Fred Phelps and his band of bigots. These kinds of things sour me against organized religion as did my early education in a convent school where the fear factor was used liberally.

I do believe that a person need not be a member of any religion in order to live a proper life which simply means not harming others in any way. (Please, I don't include squirrels in that one because once they broke into my house, those squirrels and I have an understanding; we are at war.)

November 20, 2009 at 8:59 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

HenryVIII (anonymous) says...

LOL, create. Those squirrels are wretched creatures indeed; very devious...always watching us...always scheming... Never trust a squirrel, that’s what I always say.
‘enry

November 20, 2009 at 10:12 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

Biscuit......normally a peace loving and placid animal.....can barely tolerate the mere sight of a squirrel. It sends him into a frenzy. I can only assume he knows something that I don't and I trust his judgement on these things. So I agree. Never trust a squirrel......they are up to no good......I just don't know yet what that no good amounts to.

November 20, 2009 at 12:06 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

oh4theluvof (anonymous) says...

I don't think this is a very religious territory that this thread has morphed into..............SQUIRREL!! ................................but I was wondering if any of you have seen the movie "Up" by Disney Pixar? I think all of you dog loving, squirrel hating people should go rent it.................."it is funny because a squirrel gets dead." Seriously, I don't care how old you are, you need to see this one. It was made for the young and the old and the in between and the dog lover/squirrel hater.

November 20, 2009 at 11:08 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

create (anonymous) says...

Oh yes, it is religious oh4. Everytime I see one of those tree rats walking along my roof looking for a place to make a hole I scream, OMG!

:)

November 21, 2009 at 8:37 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

create (anonymous) says...

Besides, isn't morphing a form of evolution?

November 21, 2009 at 8:37 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

oh4theluvof (anonymous) says...

LOL, create. :-) Fortunately, we haven't had that problem with the ever plentiful squirrels, but I know many who have. I just thought it was rather humorous that we made it from religion to squirrels....especially when there was a story that was relevant to the squirrels over on the story side :-)) The transition was very amusing, almost bringing back the burglary line with the mention of a "squirrel break-in."
I was attempting to be funny in a more obnoxious way by interrupting myself with the exclamation of "SQUIRREL" which you all will understand (and the quote about the dead squirrel story) once you watch "Up." My advise to rent that today was the serious part............seriously!

November 22, 2009 at 2:44 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

methusla (anonymous) says...

Boy ! This particular thread has gotten pretty, " SQUIRRELY " !

November 22, 2009 at 10:44 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

create (anonymous) says...

I'm gonna rent that movie and watch it this week, maybe Thanksgiving afternoon since I'm not a football fan. I've seen the trailer on TV when the dog, in the middle of a conversation, is distracted by..."SQUIRREL!!!"

Thomas Justagato, my cat, tries and tries and tries to catch one. He never gives up. I find myself spending enjoyable moments watching Thomas find ways to hide and wait for those pesky little apple snatchers. His favorite place to hide is inside a large square plastic tub set on its side which I placed at the edge of the patio simply to keep Thomas from getting wet in the rain.

You know, YY, perhaps if fried or baked squirrel became more in demand as a menu item, we wouldn't have so many with which to contend. Sort of like an overfished reef, but with fewer consequences.

November 23, 2009 at 7:40 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

HenryVIII (anonymous) says...

It does make you wonder... Why would God create such creatures to pester us so? Are squirrels a form of punishment for our sins?
'enry

November 23, 2009 at 10:34 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

oh4theluvof (anonymous) says...

Just a teaser: :-)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fy-CBs...

November 23, 2009 at 12:59 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

HenryVIII (anonymous) says...

Squirrels are real scrooges when it comes to the holidays...keep an eye on your decorations!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9hjp4...

'enry

November 23, 2009 at 4:03 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

create (anonymous) says...

That was pretty good, Henry, but this one made me laugh out loud so hard it took my breath away.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5-d3r...

November 24, 2009 at 9:46 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

oh4theluvof (anonymous) says...

Happy Thanksgiving to all of you!! Not to interrupt the squirrel conversation that seems to have waned, but I wanted to share something on the religion topic....I know, shocking, huh? :-)
I tend to assume everyone has itunes, but if not, you can easily download it. Anyway, if you want to hear some good, solid material on this, you can open up itunes and type in Chip Ingram in the search tab. You will get four results..choose the first thumbnail photo and you will get the current sermon series. The ones I'm pointing you to are the ones titled "Why I Believe..." It is a two week series and only four of them are up right now, but you can download and listen to them. Another option to get to them might be through facebook. The page for Living on the Edge is public and there are links posted by the organization with a topical introduction.
http://www.facebook.com/LOTEcommunity...
I'd love to hear what you think if you listen to them.

November 26, 2009 at 10:23 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

HenryVIII (anonymous) says...

I'm saddened to see that participation on this thread has dwindled... I haven't learned anything other than Christians believe the Bible is real based solely on what is written in the Bible. That kind of circular logic wouldn't hold-up anywhere else.
oh4theluvof,
I appreciate your attempts to enlighten me. Unfortunately, your posts do little to validate how "truthful" the foundations of Christian beliefs are. You posts tend to explain how Christianity is usually a good thing, but you fall short of explaining how you know (for sure) God exists and how you know he approves of your means of worship.

Basically, I have the same opinion on "God" as I do extra terrestrials. Sure, there may be some evidence to suggest both exist, but I'm not willing to say I KNOW they do without further proof.
Scientifically speaking, odds are life does exist somewhere other than Earth. I can't say it does for sure nor can I assume that life would be intelligent. There are even some people who claim to have seen aliens, but they have yet to be able to prove what they say is true. The good news is that we (as a society) are exploring space and are attempting to find some kind of tangible evidence to support the theory of extraterrestrial life's existence.
With God, however, believers usually become insulted when people like me suggest we should entertain every possibility regarding his existence. I think that is what frustrates me the most; that they refuse to explore the possibilities. I don't think we currently have enough evidence to prove God's existence. Especially when it comes to the specifics of where God (and humans) came from and how he/she/it wants us to live or what happens when we die. Anyone who says they know that for sure is doing so with nothing to support their claims.

What is the meaning of life? Why are we here? How did we get here? Where exactly is “here”? Why are these questions so hard to answer? Is it simply that our current way of thinking prevents us from grasping such concepts? Parallel universes, space and time, alternate dimensions… Are these scientific theories a step in the right direction? I really don’t know. I do think that religion is simply an excuse for the unknown; a means of putting us at ease so we aren’t constantly struggling to comprehend what we can’t explain. Religion may make us feel more comfortable, but it won’t bring us closer to the real answers and it is these answers that I seek. I urge you to really think about this the next time you are sitting in church: How do you KNOW God wants you to be there? Could your time be better spent elsewhere? Are you content in believing what you are told to believe without any logical grounds to support it?

That all being said, you don’t have to live as I live nor believe what I believe. That’s the beauty of this thing we call “life”. No matter what you believe, I wish you all well and I hope you find whatever makes you happy.
‘enry

December 18, 2009 at 4:14 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

'enry

Good morning from the other side. There's nothing going on over there at present so thought I would check in here. I'm glad I did. Enjoyed your explanation of why you feel as you do and I stand in basically full agreement with your position on this matter. You desire to engage in meaningful discourse with believers on this subject is however akin to spitting into the wind. Why?.....simply because they are believers.

As such......there is nothing for them to debate...they already know. For them to accept your challenge to look deeper and examine other possibilities is tantamount to them to denying their belief. It also is foolhardy to them because your request could in fact be nothing less than a temptation from Satan the Tempter designed to ensnare them into the pitt of hell and damnation. So I am afraid that you will have to do like all non-believers do. Accept the frustration of seeing all the reasons to not believe being ignored.....and the sorrow of seeing the blind alley the belief system often keeps us locked into....simply shake your head...and wonder why. JMO

December 20, 2009 at 7:06 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

HenryVIII (anonymous) says...

biscuitboy,
Yeah, you're probably right. That's a classic control tactic used by various religions. If you question your faith you are dubbed a sinner or blasphemer and this scares people away from opening their minds to the possibilities. Sad, really.
When people say they are "god-fearing" individuals, I think they really mean they fear what other believers will say or do to them if they don't blindly follow.
'enry

December 21, 2009 at 9:04 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

open_eyes (anonymous) says...

I just now stumbled across this thread and the reading has been interesting and enlightening. I'd like to make a soundbites:

oh4theluvof: You said nobody ate meat until after the flood. But in Genesis, (well before the flood) - they made themselves coats of skins. Abel was a keeper of sheep. And when he brought his firstborn sheep and (and the fat thereof) for sacrifice is what started the whole thing between him and Cain.
Now, that doesn't say that they actually ATE the meat. But they certainly killed animals for their use.
And if all the variety of life we see today on earth came from a smaller set of animals on the Ark...... then that sounds to me alot like....... evolution..........

biscuitboy, I do have some agreement with your doctrinal re-write. I've seen all sorts of reasons for certain books inclusion and exclusion into the current Bible (as in the "Lost" books of the Bible)...... but much of it looked political to me.
As for your statements about religions and beliefs..... one doesn't have to have religion or faith in God to have "beliefs". Like Nazi belief in Aryan supremacy.

YY4U - there's alot of violence between the Hindu's and Muslims in India. So Hindu's aren't exactly co-existing peacefully with everyone either. (Not saying if it is their fault or the Muslims). Oh, and in your story about the shoes you forgot to mention the children that survived because they could now outrun the tigers and get to safety in time because of their shoes - so some good came of it also - ;-)

Gosh, I was even really enjoying and seeing the validity and explanations of both points and debates until sortof the last couple of posts before this. People here HAVE engaged in meaningful discourse and debate...... but if it isn't what you agree with, then you say it is akin to spitting into the wind. I can also see pretty much the same attitude on many from both sides..... Including that very statement itself. Not JUST "believers". I think a faith that is arrived at because of challenges and looking deeper is more meaningful than one arrived at otherwise. Perhaps you fear ridicule from non-believers yourself, I don't know.

Anyway..... just felt like adding my 2 cents.

Personally, as a "believer"..... I think the great event coming in 2012 is........... we finally find out for certain............. we are not alone in the universe.

Just my for-fun 2012 "Doomsday" prediction ;-)

December 21, 2009 at 3:30 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

open_eyes (anonymous) says...

And also, that's when the earth's magnetic field will shift...... with all the resulting consequences...... ;-)

December 21, 2009 at 4:08 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

open_eyes

Are you questioning my assertion that believers generally see no reason to debate because they already believe. I would think that statement would stand on its own merit. If you are willing to seriously consider other ideas.....you can not by definition be a believer. So the only reason to engage in the debate becomes to prove your point.......and when that's all both sides are doing you are spitting into the wind are you not? And that would apply no matter what your believe was.

Do you also deny that a great number of believers would look at any challenge to their beliefs as the work of the devil...I would also think that statement would pretty much stand on its own merit.

.

December 21, 2009 at 7:09 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

open_eyes

I would also like to think you are taking my "last couple of post" out of context. They were addressed to 'enry specifically because of his continued attempts to get believers to answer questions designed to raise doubts as to the validity of their beliefs. I was pointing out to him what I considered to be the futility of that effort for the reasons I gave previously. I wish you would at times be less quick to try and challenge what I say until you really understand what I said. But I guess I too can be guilty of that at times.

December 21, 2009 at 7:19 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

open_eyes (anonymous) says...

I am not questioning your assertion - I am just pointing out that a great number of non-believers also see no reason to debate because they do not believe. I read through this thread and saw good questions by both sides, and good attempts at answering said questions by both sides.
Then I got to the bottom and suddenly there was the attitude that it was pointless because everybody was rigid in their belief. I saw just as much rigidity in non-belief. Neither side can prove or disprove much of anything..... but both are sure that it is the other side that has their head in the sand. Kinda comical almost. So both sides are kindof spitting into the wind at times. I see non-believers debating only to prove their point just as much. Actually on this thread I didn't see the believers' belittling of other points of view as much as I saw the non-believers doing it overall.

YES...... I am willing to seriously consider anything and everything. I have spent much of my life "seriously considering"....... and thus I have arrived at my current personal beliefs and views. Not because I blindly followed anyone's statements - either blindly following what a believer says......... or a non-believer.
By definition...... I believe what I believe. If the label you want to apply to me is "believer" because I believe in a greater force or intelligence than ourselves, and/or existence beyond what we can see and touch, then I cheerfully plead guilty. If you want to apply the label to me because I literally believe the earth is only approx 6,000 years old then I profess to be an infidel. And I'm not even saying it isn't........ it just really doesn't matter to me if it is or isnt. As you said before..... when looking into a newborn baby's eyes..... I couldn't really care less how old the earth is.

Your second paragraph..... about many looking upon it as works of the devil...... of course I agree.

Maybe I am too quick to jump into challenges, as we all are at times. But Henry (and some othes) have quite a burr under their saddle sometimes. It's hard not to notice. But I did not say YOUR last couple of posts - I meant the last 2, 1 by you, one by Henry. Actually I thought his post before that one was quite good. I was ready to congratulate him on it........ till I read the next couple....

Then I found myself not quite able to "turn the other cheek" ;-)

In addition to a few other points I brought up for oh4 and YY.

December 21, 2009 at 7:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

open_eyes

In the context of this conversation is how I refer to you as a believer......and to myself and 'enry as non-believers.. In the context of of a different conversation......such as say dangers inherent in conservative ideology as an example....our roles would be reversed. As to non-believers being as stubborn as believers in considering other views you are absolutely correct. Non-believers after all are believers in non-belief.

It is paradoxical then that we can and do have invigorating discussions about our beliefs and non-beliefs because its very doubtful either will change the others mind. The reason I feel they are worthwhile is the value they could have in helping us all coexist....which is my goal. And that is why I believe this thread has been...and still remains valuable. But I do recognize the irony in engaging in intelligent dialogue then announcing it is like spitting into the wind. Was probably a poor choice of words but was meant specifically as a description of a particular methodology, not the entire discussion. Bottom line.....I used a poor word choice.....you jumped to an erroneous conclusion about that word choice.

It happens with you and I all the time....LOL But I still always await your next post so I can get stirred up about something.

Have a nice holiday......or as you say and I respect....Have a Merry Christmas!

December 22, 2009 at 6:45 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

This thread took a serious hit when of4theluvof packed her tent and moved to another site. I hope maybe open_eyes and some other intelligent believers might help "enry and I keep it alive. My goal is peaceful coexistence...not conversion.

December 22, 2009 at 6:50 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

HenryVIII (anonymous) says...

I apologize if my questions about (and general attitude towards) religion make anyone uncomfortable. My goal is not to see "believers" converted or to persuade them to lose their faith. My goal is to find answers. I ask the questions to see if anyone knows something I may have missed. I mean, if you are going to devote your life to worshiping someone or something I would think you would have a good reason for doing so. I'm just looking for an explanation of that reasoning that I'm able to understand. Heck, if someone provides me with some convincing answers, I might be the one "converting".
‘enry

December 22, 2009 at 10:24 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

HenryVIII (anonymous) says...

Obama? ;-)
'enry

December 22, 2009 at 2:30 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

Probably nobody.... I've never heard any of this before and am skeptical......But even if true, I don't buy into prophecy of any kind. To believe prophecy you must accept that some one or something has a preconceived plan and the oomph to make it happen. The only way any of us...and to me Buddha and Jesus were us......can affect the future is through the stupid and selfish things we do now that will come back and bite us on the butt later.

December 22, 2009 at 6:40 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

I may be wrong...but I believe if that story were true I would have already heard it about ten thousand times by Christians trying to make their case....

December 22, 2009 at 6:43 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

YY4U

Meant no affront. You often use parable type stories to make your case and I thought this might have been another one. As presented it does make for interesting reading as do some other prophecy tales I am familiar with. But it in no way changes my opinion about prophecy......because belief in predictions of the future......especially specific ones like this one......require a future that is predictable. A future that is specifically predictable requires a future that is predestined, and a future that is predestined flies in the face of logic as well as many religious beliefs including Christianity. Because a predestined future eliminates free will to chose in our lives which is a fundamental tenet of Christianity. JMO

December 23, 2009 at 3:40 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

As I said earlier...our own actions can and do have a direct impact on our collective futures....and that impact can be predicted to some degree. But our future actions after making those predictions can then have a direct impact on those predictions and so on and so on..

Bu then that constantly evolving prediction flies in the face of prophecy which maintains that specific acts will occur no matter what we do or how we do it . And that is the part I can't accept. We are in a true sense masters of our destiny. It's controlled by us and natural laws of science...not be some manipulative god head. Again....JMO

December 23, 2009 at 3:50 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

HenryVIII (anonymous) says...

Predicting the future sounds like the work of sorcery to me. Some religions consider practicing sorcery or magic grounds for execution. This was true for Christianity back in the Salem Witch Trials. Thanks to religion, these kinds of killings still happen around the world even today.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/st...

I really wish people would just follow the laws of the land that the PEOPLE have collectively decided on instead of killing others because their imaginary friend (God) tells them to. What’s that? You god isn’t imaginary? Can you prove it? Can you prove that you are actually doing his work? How do you know he isn’t the devil in disguise telling you to kill these people? If your god really wanted someone dead, don’t you think he could do it himself? If he can’t, he seems pretty powerless to me. Why do you worship a powerless being who can’t do anything for himself?
Some people are so gullible when it comes to religion. I need to find a way to make money off these people. I have some scars and my head and one on my side (kinda). If I draw some discs on my hands and feet will you consider me your savior because someone may or may not have said something like that thousands of years ago? If so, I command you to send me money or you’ll burn for all eternity. Please contact the Gazette to arrange payment. If you don’t, God will be angry. Ooooooo... scary...
‘enry

December 23, 2009 at 9:35 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

HenryVIII (anonymous) says...

YY4U,
True, the length of our days change based on the Earth’s orbit around the sun. A “day”, however, has no real significance as a unit of time. A “day” on Mars is much different than a day on Earth. We base all our time measurements on the Earth’s position to the Sun. If intelligent life exists beyond our world, how would they measure time? You might think converting from standard to metric system is bad… I wonder how 1 Earth-year would compare to ET’s means of measuring time…
The real question is: Why does the Earth orbit the sun in this way? Was it the design of some super being? Was it just a random event during the creation of the universe? Who or what created the universe so we can have our “days”? You seem too complacent with all that is around you. You just accept things as they are without questioning why they are that way.

Oh, and another thing... Do you believe you will be judged by the almighty for the despicable things you have posted in the shooting message boards? Do you believe God has a plan? When a person gets shot, is it part of that plan? When illegals come into our country, is it part of God’s plan?

Sorry if I’m picking on you, but you weren’t very nice to me earlier in this thread.
'enry

December 23, 2009 at 10:26 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

Hey guys.....I came over here this morning to escape from that abomination over there. Can't we just leave that thread in the cesspool where it belongs.

December 23, 2009 at 12:13 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

HenryVIII (anonymous) says...

Sorry, biscuitboy. I'll try not to make reference to the hateful things said over there, but it does bring up a good question. For those who believe in God, why must we get so upset with one another? Why not just let God sort 'em out? If you disagree with someone, why not just let them be and they'll get what is coming to them on the other side, right?

Our citizens should obey the laws of the land. We all have a say on what laws are passed, so we must follow the law or be punished. Think of the he Dr. Tiller murder, for instance. The person who killed him clearly broke the laws of the land, so he should be punished. The defendant claims he was doing God's work and it was necessary to protect a mass of cells in the woman’s body. (the embryo) To this, I ask the following:
If God didn't like it, why not stop Tiller himself?
If God didn't like it, wouldn't Tiller have to answer for it when he died?
Tiller was, supposedly, one of God's children too, so I don't see how killing him is any better than performing abortions. The defendant will now be judged and punished here on Earth as well as by God in the afterlife. The line "God works in mysterious ways" is nothing but a sorry excuse for one's actions.

What I'm trying to say is this... Don't hate each other, people. Hate is a vicious cycle that brings you nothing but more hate. If you are a believer, follow the law and put faith in your God and he'll see to it that the bad people are punished. If you aren't a believer, stick to the laws of the land and punish only those who break them. Either way, there is no reason to disrespect each other. Uphold the law of the land and leave it at that.
'enry

December 23, 2009 at 1:34 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

'enry

That is exactly what I was trying to say awhile back when I commented that the non-believers were showing more christian compassion than the Christians....and I have no doubt I saw the same thing again last night. But after making that remark I was drug through the coals for my biased and prejudiced attitude towards Christians.

Now I must say that what I saw the first time and again last night does not in any way reflect the attitudes nor the actions of the Christians I know and value as friends. But several of the worst of those last might have at other times loudly proclaimed their virtue as Christians and criticized me for being a virtue less atheist with out Christian love. All I could ask last night was what love? Several post back up this very thread a poster challenged me with this statement......"I think a faith that is arrived at because of challenges and looking deeper [presumably Christianity] is more meaningful than those arrived at otherwise [presumably you and I]." From what I have seen yesterday and today you could reverse the presumably.

But then look at what has happened to their interest in the discussion......all gone now.

December 23, 2009 at 5:20 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

Well I'm certainly glad that you managed to somehow bring that back to topic.

CHAPEL!

December 23, 2009 at 6:53 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

Reality is often an illusion....and illusions are often our realities.

Just My Opinion

Preston

December 28, 2009 at 4:19 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZW8Tlr...

December 28, 2009 at 11:12 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...

2 Corinthians 4:18
while we do not look at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen. For the things which are seen are temporary, but the things which are not seen are eternal.

December 28, 2009 at 11:14 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

open_eyes (anonymous) says...

Hey, another 2 cents worth from me (before inflation, so worth much less now - LOL) in regards to biscuitboys assertion that the non-believers show more compassion than the believers.

You might be right in the context of the thread you are referring to. On any individual isolated area that may very well be true.

In my lifetime, I've been robbed, mistreated, humiliated, made fun of, lied to, etc...... I imagine at one time or another we all have had very negative experiences we could have done without.

I can safely and accurately say that overwhelmingly these extremely negative experiences of mine were at the hands of "non-believers". (Not that I haven't had negative experiences with believers as well, just that the major ones I recall, such as being robbed, etc, were not by professed believers. Or anywhere close).
And far and away, (overwhelmingly), when I have been in need, down and out, the help and care and support given to me has come from "believers" - whether fellow church friends, family members with faith, or other friends who have similar beliefs. (Not that I haven't had great help and assistance from non-believers at times, just overwhelmingly the compassion has come more from one "side").

Now, I can probably say that the help has come more from one side because that makes up more of the majority of my circle of friends, family, and contacts.

But that doesn't explain where the major wrongs done to me have come from.

So I guess I could say that in my life, I have been shown much more compassion and caring by believers than by non-believers.

I COULD say that. But I won't. Just because that has been my experience doesn't mean it holds true for others, or is even true overall. Besides, I think that kind of thinking would be un-Christian. I believe in caring for all and having a heart of forgiveness. (I read it in an old book somewhere - just because I "might" have eventually arrived at that mindset on my own doens't make that book any less valuable).

So Peace and Love to all...... both the compassionate and non-compassionate believer..... and also both the compassionate and non-compassionate non-believer........ and Happy New Year! ;-)

January 1, 2010 at 12:59 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

open_eyes

You are essentially correct I think in saying that most Christians do try to exhibit love and compassion for their fellow man. At least most that I have known do. Unfortunately there is a small but noisy bunch of the my way or the highway fundamentalist that are a marked exception.

I am however curious as to how you can know with certainty and conviction that most of those that have done you wrong were non-believers. How do you know that? Did you ask them? I have known very few people in my life that outwardly and openly profess to be atheist. There is a larger number that claim to be agnostic...but I often think the two are primarily quibbling over semantics.

The vast majority of the people I have known claim to be Christian....including the vast majority of the people I have know to be outlaws. The prisons are full of believers....just ask them. You don't have to be living a christian life to believe in God and Christ. If you did there would be no reason for the confessional. I wonder if you perhaps are confusing that point?

January 5, 2010 at 7:40 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

HenryVIII (anonymous) says...

It doesn't really matter if believers are more compassionate or vice versa. The real question is why do believers believe what they do? Do they believe everything they are told and/or everything they read in a book? Maybe I'm just a little dense or stubborn for not "seeing the light". Then again, maybe believers are just naive or gullible for blindly accepting the unexplained.
Of all the religious folks out there, you'd think one of them could tell me why I should devote my entire life to any particular deity. Judging what I've seen on this thread so far, I'm not optimistic that I'll get the answer here. It's also possible that I won't get the answer because even the religious folks don't know why they believe what they do. Ignorance is bliss, I guess.
'enry

January 6, 2010 at 9:06 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

'enry

"The real question is why do believers believe what they do?"

Answer....because they are believers. On the surface that might sound like a trite or even sarcastic answer but I don't mean it as such. It has nothing to do with your not being able to "see the light".....or with their just being naive and gullible....it has to do with a mindset.

Believers want order and predictability. They need to now that in the end everything will work out. The unpredictability of nature and its often random consequence is very hard for them to deal with....they must have answers now. Non-believers as a whole are much less uncomfortable with the unknown.....and more comfortable with the knowledge that knowledge is a work in progress.

This probably explains why there is an unusually high percentage of non-believers in the scientific community. Science didn't make them non-believers....being non-believers attracted them to science. Ironically this mindset almost leads to a confusing of the two. Scientist seek order and predictability in science because they realize there is much left to learn....and that learning will never be complete. Believers seek order and predictability in religion because they must feel it is all already known and planned out beforehand.

It would be practically impossible for the two sides to change rolls.

January 8, 2010 at 8:18 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

HenryVIII (anonymous) says...

biscuitboy,
That was a great explanation. Thanks for that.
'enry

January 8, 2010 at 8:46 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

HenryVIII (anonymous) says...

It's too bad most believers won't admit that their devotion to religion is based solely on their mindset rather than factual occurrences or tangible evidence. I'd have a lot more respect for religious folks if they'd say, "I don't really think the Bible is 100% true, but I'd rather not spend time worrying about what's really going on. It's easier to believe what someone tells you to than to figure it out for yourself."
This reminds me of a quote from The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy(movie): " I think that the chances of finding out what's actually going on are so absurdly remote that the only thing to do is to say, "Hang the sense of it," and keep yourself busy. I'd much rather be happy than right any day."
'enry

January 8, 2010 at 9:38 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

I can certainly relate to that. I truly believe that all of this is not just out of our control but out of the control of anything except perhaps the laws of physics and math...and we don't really have a clue as to how they work. They themselves may be nothing more than an illusion we have created (a religion if you will) to make our selves feel better.

But on a day to day basis, I am as happy as if I had good sense. And when I die I am quite confident that my physical self will morph back into the cosmos from which it came. So maybe there is eternal life after all....but wether or not my life was worth while will depend totally on the deeds that I did and my affect on others......not on what I believed about God and heaven. JMO

Incidentally....I have The Ultimate Hitchhiker's Guide setting right across the room on my bookshelf. It was a gift from a non-believeing friend.

January 8, 2010 at 10:15 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

HenryVIII (anonymous) says...

YY4U,
Be a "better person" how? Some religions say you'll become "better" by doing some pretty crazy things. This can be dangerous for the rest of society if a person is doing something that they think will make them "better" in their God's eyes. My point is that "better" is only a matter of opinion. A religious person's idea of "better" may not be the same as mine and this can cause clashes between our differing ideologies.
I agree with you, however. If it makes you happy AND you're not hurting anyone else, go for it. Just don't tell me I'm going to hell in a hand basket for not sharing your beliefs. Don't judge me (and my actions) based on your religious beliefs. Also, don’t go 'round acting all superior to others because you think going to church makes you a better person. That ain’t too much to ask, is it?
'enry

January 8, 2010 at 11:43 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

Yes.....I hate the needless expenditure of resources!

January 8, 2010 at 12:02 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

HenryVIII (anonymous) says...

http://www.webs05.com/images/religion...

'enry

January 8, 2010 at 2:39 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

Been there...seen that.....good link 'enry.

January 8, 2010 at 4:09 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

HenryVIII (anonymous) says...

I think pastors, preachers, clerics, prophets, etc... could make a lot of money as used car dealers. Apparently, they are very convincing salespersons. Essentially, they are selling the concept of a pleasant afterlife. A lot of people seem more than willing to buy into the idea that (A) there is an afterlife, (B) their actions in this life determine what their afterlife will be like, and (C) the person telling them how they should live actually knows what they’re talking about. Unfortunately, there is no “money-back guarantee” because you’ll be dead and unable to collect anyway. Also, there is no way to tell if you did or didn’t go to heaven (or get a bunch of virgins) in the afterlife, so there is no way to dispute the religious-types’ claims. Sounds like the perfect scam to me!
If these religious-types can sell an idea that can’t, in any way be verified, they should have no problem selling a car that was “owned by and old lady and only driven to church on Sundays”... (even if it’s missing a wheel and has no engine)
‘enry

January 11, 2010 at 3:11 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

I have often though if some stranger showed up on my porch with that sales pitch...say in the form of an insurance policy....I would laugh him off my porch if I didn't have him arrested.

January 11, 2010 at 6 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

HenryVIII (anonymous) says...

Looks like some NON-believers have came up with an idea to make money off of the same religious scare tactics...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfr...
Apparently, there is a company (ran by atheists) that promises to take care of your pets after the rapture. So, if you are a believer who thinks you'll be called up to heaven someday, you can rest assured that someone will still be around to take care of your pets! Great idea! Non-believers selling piece of mind to believers...imagine that.

This presents a good question for religious folks, though. In the event of the rapture, do you think your personal pets will go to heaven with you? If not, isn’t it a little cruel that they must suffer the end of the world alone?

I think I may have scared all our religious friends away with my constant questions and ramblings... Too bad, I enjoy a friendly debate; especially when I might learn something from the other side.
'enry

January 12, 2010 at 8:57 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

Very few religious believers.....a few, but very few......want to debate. They want to preach and you listen. I don't know why but most of them have no desire to debate the topic at all.

January 12, 2010 at 5:36 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

HenryVIII (anonymous) says...

biscuitboy,
You're right. I think it's against their rules to ask questions or have doubts about what they believe. That's what having "faith" is all about! It's funny to me that these same people often dislike big companies and distrust big government, yet they fail to realize that organized religion is the largest, furthest-reaching corporation of all. Religion takes your money like a big corporation and tells you have to live your life like an intrusive government. Yet, somehow, they are unable to see this.

Does anyone know a local preacher who might want to join the fray? They can remain anonymous if they like. I just would like to see some answers from someone who makes a living selling religion.
'enry

January 13, 2010 at 9:17 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

HenryVIII (anonymous) says...

Star Wars, Admiral Motti - "Don't try to frighten us with your sorcerous ways, Lord Vader. Your sad devotion to that ancient religion has not helped you conjure up the stolen data tapes, or given you clairvoyance enough to find the rebels' hidden fortress..."

Religious quotes are irrelevant as the source cannot be verified to be true and the original meaning is always open to interpretation. In other words, quoting the Bible to make a point only hurts your credibility. Join us here (http://www.emporiagazette.com/forums/... ) for further discussion on religious matters.
‘enry

January 15, 2010 at 10:15 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

HenryVIII (anonymous) says...

How about the comments Pat Robertson (of the 700 Club) made about the earthquake in Haiti?

Apparently, according to Pat, God caused the earthquake to teach ‘em a lesson. I think this is a load of rubbish. What do you think?

Sadly, this is how religion works. By saying God directly caused all the death and destruction, Pat is hoping the scare more people over to Christianity so he can make more money off them. Sure, Jesus will protect you, but it’ll cost ya! Don’t make him mad or he’ll kill a bunch of people! …Foolishness; all of it.
'enry

January 15, 2010 at 10:29 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

It's foolishness to you and me 'enry, but it obviously plays well to many. It actually is too bad that a source of comfort and hope to many.....whether we understand that or not....is such a prime feeding ground for so many charlatans. And Pat Robertson is one of the best and most successful of them.

But the one that really gets my goat is the one that is always wanting seed money. According to this slick haired huckster, God is just waiting to send you a pile of money.....but first....to prove your faith...you have to send our man some "seed money" then you shall receive blessings many times over.....at a later date. This is the same old reward in heaven story reduced to its lowest common denominator...and people actually buy into it......Amazing

January 15, 2010 at 5:19 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

On the other hand, I know a wonderful lady who is confined to a wheelchair and is physically able to do little for her self. She does however have a wonderful mind and some layout and design talents she has pretty much taught herself. She moved today from her old apartment of about thirty years to a new one. A daunting task for her.

Well a large number of people from her church showed up bringing tools and dollies and their brawn and enthusiasm. They moved this lady cheerfully, willingly, and asked for nothing in return. It warmed her heart...and frankly, it warmed mine too. This was the love and compassion that Christianity is supposed to be about.....and at it's core level is really about.

This is the religion that causes me to still value and appreciate it more than you seem to be able to do. This is the religion.....void of the charlatans and slick haired hucksters....that allows me to be able to see its value without understanding how it can be accepted as what it is.

January 15, 2010 at 5:32 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

HenryVIII (anonymous) says...

Why does God allow natural disasters?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/ma...
As the philosopher David Hume (echoing Epicurus) put it in 1776: "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is impotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Whence then is evil?"

Personally, I believe that if there is a "God" he/she/it doesn't really care about our daily struggle to survive. I've seen no evidence that someone is "watching over us".
'enry

January 19, 2010 at 8:43 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

koalemos (anonymous) says...

HenryVIII, Your faith and devotion has been observed for some time now and shall be rewarded with all that koalemos has to offer my faithful servant.

January 19, 2010 at 11:42 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

Well I certainly agree that if there is some God-like being out there he certainly has more important things to do than concern himself with our trivial little lives. Or at least I would certainly hope that he does. Actually, I believe God--Nature--and the Laws of Science are all one in the same. And if we ever come to grips with it...it will happen somewhere beyond singularity.... in a realm we don't even have a clue exists today.

January 19, 2010 at 12:33 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

koalemos (anonymous) says...

God works in mysterious ways. Before the earthquake nobody cared about the starving children dyeing on the tropical island of Haiti. Now it is all you see on the CNN. Billions of people around the globe are sending money to hundreds of organizations who claim they will spend the money on Haitian Relief efforts. Some of those charities are quite pleased with the extra cash God sent their way, I imagine. See HenryVIII, Ya got to have faith!

January 19, 2010 at 2:22 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

HenryVIII (anonymous) says...

koalemos,
I see... So you might say God allowed the terrorist attacks on 9/11 because he wanted us to retaliate and drop some bombs in the Middle East? God's plan is too confusing for me. One minute, he wants me to help people by donating money and the next he wants someone to crash a plane into a building and harm people... Seems a little hypocritical to me...

Why must there always be human sacrifices when it comes to God's will? If he wants our attention, why not write it on the face of the moon or just come down and tell us? Why not fix the problem himself? Nah, that's not his style. He'd rather kill lots of people and cause a lot of pain and suffering for the survivors. Thanks a lot, God. Point taken.

Why worship someone who can't even protect his children? The US government is doing more to help people around the world than God is. Perhaps we should worship the President instead? Since God likes to kill our citizens, maybe we should declare God an enemy of the state. I know I'm taking it a little far, but it's something to think about.
'enry

January 19, 2010 at 3:35 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

koalemos (anonymous) says...

HenryVIII,

No, I wouldn't say that.

January 19, 2010 at 4:47 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

HenryVIII (anonymous) says...

koalemos,
So you are saying you know what God does and doesn't want us to do? How exactly do you know that? God can kill people but we can't? Again, very hypocritical.
'enry

January 19, 2010 at 9:55 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

koalemos (anonymous) says...

Being a god myself I can only say what I want people to do or not to do. I will not speak for another god. Especially that one!

January 19, 2010 at 10 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

Well God koalemos......where shall I send my tax deductible donation for your work.....where do I get my koalemos's way or the highway bumper sticker......and most importantly, where do I get my ticket to koalemos heaven and the beneis?

I kinda missed out on the last one so I want to make certain I get on board for this go round....kinda like a charter member.

January 20, 2010 at 4:08 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

koalemos

I after all have been called stupid and foolish on these boards with regularity....in fact that is some of the nicer things I've been called.

January 20, 2010 at 8:21 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

Why do I feel we have met before?

January 20, 2010 at 8:24 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

Islands perhaps different from your native Greece.

January 20, 2010 at 8:28 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

HenryVIII (anonymous) says...

Here we go again... Why can't religious folks just keep it to themselves? This company seems to think they are doing "God's work" by manufacturing parts for deadly weapons. Very scary stuff. How are they any better than radical Islamists?
'enry

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8...
From the article:
"
Coded references to biblical passages are inscribed on gunsights widely used by the US and British military in Iraq and Afghanistan, it has emerged.

The markings include "2COR4:6" and "JN8:12", relating to verses in the books of II Corinthians and John.

Trijicon, the US-based manufacturer, was founded by a devout Christian, and says it runs to "Biblical standards".
"

January 20, 2010 at 8:41 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

create (anonymous) says...

Posted by HenryVIII (anonymous) on January 15, 2010 at 10:29 a.m. (Suggest removal)

How about the comments Pat Robertson (of the 700 Club) made about the earthquake in Haiti?

Apparently, according to Pat, God caused the earthquake to teach ‘em a lesson. I think this is a load of rubbish. What do you think?

I agree with you, Henry. He claims to be a Christian and in fact has some quote on his web site about the guidance of Jesus. Pure crap to get people's money.

If Pat Robertson were the good Christian he claims to be, then he would have used this opportunity to witness for his God. But that might cost him a few bucks.

Just this morning, CNN reported about the thousands upon thousands of solar-powered bibles which have been received in Haiti. Since the population of Haiti is largely illiterate, the Bibles have recordings in Creole so the people can listen to them. The organization which sent the Bibles are truly inspired and put Pat Robertson to shame. It is he who is damned evil.

January 20, 2010 at 9:03 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

koalemos (anonymous) says...

HenryVIII, What’s wrong with having a little light with your 12 gauge?

January 20, 2010 at 11:13 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

HenryVIII (anonymous) says...

koalemos,
I don't think these sights are for 12 gauges and I don't know what "light" you speak of.

What's wrong is that putting Bible verses on guns is a step towards making the US occupation a "holy war". That don't sit right with me. I think the military should demand it be removed from future products and file the verse numbers off of the gun sights they have already purchased. If the company doesn't comply, they should find a new manufacturer.
'enry

January 20, 2010 at 11:37 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

Reminds me a lot of the backward masking scare of years ago...and probably placed there by people of the same mind set as were having a fit about the danger of backward masking. If the inscriptions weren't in the specs...they shouldn't be there. But I am sure they will remain. Just more proof of the theocracy that we are not supposed to be.

January 20, 2010 at 12:27 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

koalemos (anonymous) says...

HenryVIII, Your right about them not having ACOG mounts for my shotgun yet. It’s a crying shame! I really like the illuminated crosshairs; it makes it easier to throw down accurate fire against those evil doers who try to hide in the darkness of sin.

January 20, 2010 at 2:11 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

HenryVIII (anonymous) says...

koalemos,
If you really need illuminated crosshairs to hit your target with a shotgun, I'm afraid you won't be dispatching many "evil doers". Nice try, pal.

I know you're just trying to "get my goat" with such silly postings, but you have highlighted a major problem with religion. That problem is that people will act in the name of God when not everyone in society recognizes your God nor do they interpret his word in the same manner. I just hope you don't think I'm an "evil doer"... By definition of the US law (that I recognize and obey as a citizen), I am not an evil doer. Please use the same definition before passing judgment on others.
'enry

January 20, 2010 at 2:44 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

koalemos (anonymous) says...

HenryVII,

A marking on a gun sight that is suggestive of biblical scriptures isn’t the only type of religious indoctrination an American Soldier is subjected to. Soldiers are required to attend mandatory briefings where the chaplain gets up in front of the captive audience and spews out biblical propaganda for what seems like hours. If the Soldier explains to his leaders that he or she doesn’t care to be subjected to religious indoctrination, that poor troop is asking for s#!t duty. If the Soldier files a formal complaint about it, he/she is told that the complaint is unwarranted because he/she can simply get up and walk out during the chaplain’s invocation. When the Soldier gets up in a crowded auditorium and walks out during that part of the mandatory briefing, that Soldier is reprimanded for his/her disruptive display. On Sunday, Soldiers can go to church services or they can report to the officer of the day to clean toilets of some other type of degrading busy work to occupy their time while waiting for the rest of the Soldiers to return from church services. Soldiers who display the religious beliefs of their commander stand better chances at advancement, schooling and travel than their non-believing counterparts. Once, I said I was going to church services but went to the arcade instead. A goodie two shoe Christian ratted me out and I was forced to buff the floors for two weeks. Later, we were getting ready to parachute out of a C-141 and that Christian who ratted me out accidentally opened his reserve shoot inside the plane. Karma I guess.

January 20, 2010 at 3:33 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

HenryVIII (anonymous) says...

koalemos,
That makes me sad. If you witnessed such occurrences, I think you should report it.

In a way, though, it's just like back in high school when the football coach would say "bring it in" just before a game and we were all suppose to kneel, hold hands and someone would say a lame prayer. I never participated in such rituals and I still started nearly every game. I respected their right to have whatever beliefs they wanted, but I refused to take part in it against my will. I imagine the soldiers could find a way to avoid it (as I did) without repercussions. (maybe listen to head phones during that portion of the meeting or something) If not, something needs to be done about this. Did anyone else have an experience similar to koalemos' in the US military?
'enry

January 20, 2010 at 4:30 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

koalemos (anonymous) says...

I could be stretching it a bit to make me look like less of a problem child. If the military was trying to indoctrinate me into Christianity they failed pitifully.

January 20, 2010 at 6:08 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

I saw some of the same thing when I was in basic.....and again during my early training assignments......not hardly at all once I got out to sea though.

What I saw most early on was the having to do the s#*^ detail work if you chose to skip church.

January 20, 2010 at 8:03 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

HenryVIII (anonymous) says...

http://www.theonion.com/content/news/...

Ha!
'enry

January 22, 2010 at 8:45 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Steve_Corbin (anonymous) says...

Henry,

Thanks for the chuckle. That poor gay teen in the article looked a little confused, or not.

A little humor can go along way on a dreary day.

January 22, 2010 at 11:05 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...

"On Sunday, Soldiers can go to church services or they can report to the officer"
Not true in the least bit. I was in The U.S. Army from march of 1993 - March of 1996 and every Sunday, after basic training and AIT, I slept in or was just getting to sleep from the night before unless we were in the field. It was the same for everyone in my unit and all the people I knew in other units. I seem to remember a few people going to church or whatever in basic training but they got theirs when they got back, the drill sergeants saw to that.

January 22, 2010 at 2:27 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

I think a lot of this has to do with the individual officer and the individual command. Some officers and commands were more heavily weighted in one direction......other commands in a different difrection. The Captain of one ship I was on was much more inclined to "encourage worship" than either of the other two.

So I never thought it was systemic....just luck of the draw.

January 23, 2010 at 3:55 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

koalemos (anonymous) says...

The next time you see a god, kneel before him and wash his feet. He will find favor for this gesture and repay it with remembrance.

January 23, 2010 at 11:24 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

koalemos (anonymous) says...

Remember to clean between the toes really good!

January 23, 2010 at 11:25 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

How about using toe floss...would that be an acceptable act of contrition?

January 23, 2010 at 12:49 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

HenryVIII (anonymous) says...

reddog posted the following on a different article:
"The U.S. has taken the gospel to the world but like Israel we have departed from God. Judgement is coming. Most people don't know this but witchcraft and Satanism are accepted as legitmate religions by the U.S. government. I believe that America was called to be the light of the world and like Israel in the bible, we have gone backwards"

I hope reddog makes their way over to this forum to answer the following.
How have we "departed from God"? How do you really know we were doing what God wanted in the first place?
How do you really know "judgment" is coming?
How are "witchcraft and Satanism" any different from any other religion? (assuming those who practice aren't hurting anyone)
How were we "called to be the light of the world"? Did I miss the call? I didn't get a voicemail...
'enry

January 25, 2010 at 9:58 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

HenryVIII (anonymous) says...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35079187/...

"Pope John Paul II whipped himself with a belt, even on vacation, and slept on the floor as acts of penitence and to bring him closer to Christian perfection..."

That's perfection, alright! Who makes this stuff up?
'enry

January 26, 2010 at 9:47 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

ToxicPink (anonymous) says...

In response, I don't talk to God because I don't talk to imaginary things. Sometimes I talk to myself though, which is totally different.

Churches can be a scam, I for one was tired of seeing the one I went to get new stained glass windows every other year.

I have the biggest issue with organized religion, not too much with those that are religious, if you need to have a faith in order to feel better by all means I do not want to take away something that for the most part can be harmless if done right.

I think its sick when it's marketed or used to make money.

January 29, 2010 at 10:51 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

koalemos (anonymous) says...

create’s forum on Haiti has passed the number of posts of this one that henryVIII started a long time ago so I will add a post out of pity :-)
A recent article (well more of an advertisement) about a business here that will scratch your back and talk to ghosts for a small fee got quite a bit of ridicule from the religious right but…What is the difference if you believe in ghosts and waste your money or if you believe in holy ghosts and waste your money? If you go to church and donate some money and it makes you feel better I say good for you. If you go to a business and pay money to someone who will talk to your dead on your behalf and it makes you feel better I say good for you. At least the business will pay tax on the sale, why not the church?

January 29, 2010 at 1:17 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

HenryVIII (anonymous) says...

ToxicPink,
Good post. I agree with you when you say, "If you need to have a faith in order to feel better by all means I do not want to take away something that for the most part can be harmless if done right." This is why people shouldn't give you a hard time if you think you can contact spirits. I think churches are far guiltier than the clairvoyant for selling false hope.

koalemos,
Thanks for the pity post! I agree with you as well. There were a couple of people who posted to that article saying that the "holy trinity" was the only type of spirits we should try to talk to. They said it was dangerous to try to contact others. I want to know what facts they have to support their claim.
The person who can supposedly contact spirits isn't telling the church not to pray to God, so why do the churchy-types tell her to stop? How do they KNOW they’re right, but she is wrong?
'enry

January 29, 2010 at 2:13 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

'enry

They know they are right because God told them they were. He wrote it right there in the book and the book is right because he wrote it and told them in it that it was right.

It all sounds perfectly credible to me. lol

But as koalemos says if it makes them feel better to believe this...go for it.....I can live with that. What I can't live with is their believe that they have some sort of a "God-Given" (sarcasm fully intended) right to tell everyone else what to believe. Unfortunately the need to believe and the need to force that belief on others apparently go hand in hand. Because of that I fear mankind may have to endure at least one more so called holy war before we have a chance of putting this issue to rest.

I just hope it doesn't happen in my lifetime!

January 29, 2010 at 5:44 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

I agree that the churches are every bit as guilty of selling false hope as any charlatan......and that includes any sales pitch based on sex appeal or get rich quick without ever leaving you couch scheme that hucksters sell all the time. But for every huckster there must be several suckers who often are getting just what they deserve

January 29, 2010 at 5:51 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

HenryVIII (anonymous) says...

Did everyone have a good Sunday this last weekend? I slept-in until 2:00pm! Now that's what I call a "day of rest". :-)

Religion = Ignorance (in my opinion)
'enry

February 2, 2010 at 12:46 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

I got up about 4 a.m. which is about normal for me. Had my laundry done, my dogs walked, my dishes washed, had eaten breakfast, and was out visiting my brother by nine. That was a good day for me. I guess to each his own.

And hey...you know what....that would probably be a good way for all of us to look at religion.

February 2, 2010 at 3:32 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

'enry

You brought up ignorance. I find ignorance much harder to tolerate than religion...especially ignorance vested in people that don't realize they suffer from that malady.

Some people are ignorant and realize it. They for the most part live their lives and keep their mouths shut. And in the end they then prove themselves to be smarter than they were given credit for being.

Then there are those that are ignorant but believe that ignorance should be worn as a badge of honor. They flaunt it. They revel in it. They try to reduce everything to their level of incomprehension. And in so doing they raise ignorance to an art form. One doesn't have to look far to find these people...just look at any gathering of social conservatives and you will find them in abundance. Of late they have taken to going by the name of tea partiers...or even tea baggers...and their hallmark is intolerance, hatred, and a tunnel-visioned blindness to any thought that threatens their little preconceived idea of what the world should be.

Most of these same people claim to be devout in their following of religious teaching and yet for the most part know little more about the real teaching of their own leader than they do about anything else except the glorification of their ignorance. These are the people that give religion it's bad name. It makes one wonder why, if God did create man, he even bothered to give him a brain since the ones that are the most loyal to him are often the ones without one.

It's no small wonder we look for intelligent life in outer space. We know there is very damned little of it here on earth. And yes I am angry...and yes I am tired of being polite about it.
These same people don't like so called political correctness...well they are about to see a lot less of it from me.!

Now...would you like to hear how I really feel about this? :-)

February 2, 2010 at 6:11 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

create (anonymous) says...

Sorry to introduce Haiti into this thread of yours, 'enry, but I'm surprised no one has introduced to this religion thread the fact that religion has apparently gotten a bunch of people into a bunch of trouble in Haiti. You know what I'm talking about. It's on the Topeka news every day since one of those people is from Kansas. (We always make the news with religion or basketball).

Now being referred to as missionaries, the 10 American Baptists, an Idaho church group not even registered as a church group, not even registered as an orphanage, have gone to Haiti to bring a busload of children to the U.S. without documentation. One woman in the group said that Jesus told her they should do this, and the entire group became motivated to go on this very dangerous trip.

And there they sit, in a jail cell, charged with child trafficking. As they should be.

Some say they had good intentions. So what? What kind of nut cases go to a third world country to help themselves to the children? If something like that were allowed, every pervert in the world would be over there doing that very same thing and saying they belong to some church. So religious affiliation makes it okay to kidnap children?

Boy, oh boy, I sure wouldn't want to be sitting in a prison cell in a third world country, especially one prone to earthquakes.

Here's my prediction, either Hillary or Bill will go over there soon to try to talk some official into letting these people go. Then they will all come back home to the U.S. and people will pat them on the back and say, "Well, at least you tried. You had the right intentions."

Baloney! They were meddling Americans, and they need to be put on trial for breaking the law because that is exactly what they did.

February 3, 2010 at 6:28 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

create (anonymous) says...

Good post, biscuit. "Of late they have taken to going by the name of tea partiers...or even tea baggers...and their hallmark is intolerance, hatred, and a tunnel-visioned blindness to any thought that threatens their little preconceived idea of what the world should be."

I put those missionaries in that same category as you relate to above because they are taking their own preconceived notions of what the world should be. Instead of helping those people help themselves, they are going over there to kidnap their children under the guise of adoption.

Again I say, Baloney!!!

February 3, 2010 at 6:33 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

create (anonymous) says...

BTW, biscuit, I see by the morning news that tea partiers are having lots of troubles based on too much infighting. They seem to be their own worst enemy.

Why am I not surprised? The GOP, no matter what they call themselves, just can't seem to get it together.

Sorry 'enry. Didn't mean to hijack your thread with politics.

February 3, 2010 at 6:46 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

create

You have hit the nail dead on. The actions of this group of self-proclaimed "missionaries" is reflective of much of the thinking of this right wing social conservatism. Things like laws and treaties and protocol be damned. If we feel moved to do it (usually because God told us to) then laws and little issues like kidnapping become irrelevant to them. These people make me sick with their narrow minded self-interest. But what makes me even sicker is the number of otherwise decent Christians that are so quick to make excuses for them and sugar coat the movement.

Oh...and thank you for having the courage to speak up. I am being painted very much at the moment as a social pariah...but then so are you. Well it's not the first time...and probably wont be the last.

February 3, 2010 at 7:06 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

koalemos (anonymous) says...

People with the highest IQ's wait to have children until they can provide for them and the smart people refrain from having more children than they can care for. This has caused the human population to be dominated by the ignorant who breed like cockroaches at their family reunions. Because of this uncorrected problem, I find myself surrounded by inbred idiots everywhere I go. It is nice to find people who read the entire comment before laughing or crying. Thank's go out to biscuitboy, create, enry, steve, oh4, seriously and anyone else who can read these words and understand the meaning.

February 3, 2010 at 7:54 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

HenryVIII (anonymous) says...

create,
I don't mind your political thread-hijacking at all. I think you made some great points!

Religion and religious values are all a matter of opinion, so I don't think the alleged "missionaries" should get off easy at all. If this lady could PROVE Jesus (the son o' God not "hay-zeus" down the street) told her do to this, then she might have some ground to stand on. Otherwise, she shouldn't assume her religious beliefs trump state, federal, and/or international laws. Being on a "mission from God" is just another way of saying you are doing what you personally think is right not what is considered right by society as a whole. It is a dangerous thing when people think their actions are guided by a higher-power because they'll often go through with it no matter who they harm.

As far as politics go, it can be argued that conservatives are more religious than others. Maybe this is why I don’t respect (I tolerate, but don’t respect) many of these "teabaggers". It’s kind of a "chicken before the egg" conundrum… Does being religious make you more likely to be a conservative or does being a conservative make you more likely to believe in religion? Is belonging to the GOP and Christianity a way for the naive and/or gullible to feel safe? Is it their "values" that make them believe their personal preferences are best for everyone? Why do their values entail blindly following what they’re told is best by others? I realize am over-categorizing conservatives and Christians into a specific group, but I think there is at least some truth behind what I say.

My thread lives again. Yay!
'enry

February 3, 2010 at 11:49 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

I agree it is over-generalizing but it is also....in my opinion ....quite often true.

There is a sameness in the willingness to march in lock step to the every dictate of higher authority that to me is quite troubling. But it also might well explain why conservatives seem to do better in political movements. So called LIBERALS...(aka the left)...has a very hard time marching in lock step with each other...much less higher authority. Why....because we have a greater tendency to think for ourselves and operate outside of the box. Makes for more interesting argument......but is damned hard to organize.

February 3, 2010 at 12:43 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

create (anonymous) says...

LOL 'enry. I've often wondered why some of my conservative friends will knock wood when they say something about their futures. They must do it to feel on the safe side.

Thanks, koalemos. I appreciate your words.

biscuit, me? A social pariah? I love it, every moment of the day, I absolutely love it. (dances out of the forum singing, Call Me Irresponsible, call me undesireable, call me irrepressible toooooo...).

February 3, 2010 at 12:46 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

create (anonymous) says...

biscuit,
Excellent point about liberals whose tendency it is to think on the larger scale and not follow blindly.

Now we see that congressional members of the GOP who have endorsed issues in the past, are now doing a flip flop. I guess they are no longer the party of no, but now they are the party of change.

Wait, wait, isn't that what Obama introduced to begin with? The party of change?

Oh my. Maybe they're the NEW party of change. LOL

February 3, 2010 at 1:59 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

koalemos

Yes isn't it nice to have people understand what you said. I don't require, or even expect, people to always agree with me....but to just comprehend what I said is a step in the right direction.

February 3, 2010 at 7:42 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

This is somewhat of a change of direction but I believe one of the biggest frustrations for the right of late....(maybe even bigger than last election which I think the repubs almost threw)....has been the rise of the militant left.

Right and left both have had their lunatic fringe all along. But the right over the years developed a powerful group of right wing militants that worked effectively taking the fight to the streets so to speak. This was the right of the Rush Limbaugh crowd. Full frontal assault...show no quarter. belittle, demean, insult,ridicule and certainly intimidate any body that would dare question your views. They also promoted activism. Barrage your congressmen with phone calls and e-mails. barrage other people's congressman also. Fight...fight hard...fight dirty....win at all cost. It worked well and the left for the most part coward in their niceties and their political correctness and played dead.

But somewhere in the middle of the Impeach Clinton fiasco, some on the left began to fight back. A new militant left has emerged that is willing and ready to play by the same rules that Rush used against them so well for so long. Enter the likes of Keith Olbermann....and the right does not like having to defend against it's own game plan. It's much more likely on these boards anymore to have left leaning posters that are willing to stand toe-to-toe and dish it out as well as the right does. They are not as good yet because they haven't had the time in grade.....but they are getting better...and it is driving the right nuts.

It also has put the right in the unusual position now of having to cry foul about as often as the left had to for years...and they don't like that either. JMO

Sorry about the politics 'enry....but I do think this is an indication of a significant change in thinking that probably also applies to a new approach to dealing with religion also...We'll see

February 4, 2010 at 4:19 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

create....

I'm very late on this but finally got an answer to the music behind open_eyes' link on How Big is the Universe question.

It was written for the funeral of Queen Mary...(still don't know by whom)...and was the main title theme for Kubrick's A Clockwork Orange. It was also used in the little boy's funeral scene in his Barry Lyndon.

February 4, 2010 at 7:13 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

Henry Purcell, 1695, Baroque Period.

This new finagled computer contraption just amazes me what you can find out with this little mousey thing-a-ma-jig

February 4, 2010 at 7:24 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

create (anonymous) says...

Great information, biscuit. Thank you so much. You spent some good time on that, I know.

Oh yes, I love using this compouter the way it was meant to be used. The other day, I went to the Metropolitan Opera site and was able to listen to an entire opera while I worked on a quilt. Bliss!

February 4, 2010 at 8:14 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

HenryVIII (anonymous) says...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUaO0L...

February 4, 2010 at 2:44 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

create (anonymous) says...

I see those American missionaries in Haiti have now been formally charged by the Haitian government with kidnapping. If found guilty, the sentencing guidelines are from 3 to 9 years.

These people are responsible for causing so many problems and now they are likely to get the state department involved -- all because they thought they knew better about what to do than entire governments and entire organizations like UNICEF. How naive to say the least. Foolish even.

Can you imagine how their families back home must feel about all this? How worried they must be? Think about this: If these people had jobs to begin with, how long are their employers expected to hang loose?

February 4, 2010 at 4:19 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

create (anonymous) says...

Good find on You Tube, 'enry. Surprise ending was quite funny. We should e-mail it to the Kansas Board of Ed.

February 4, 2010 at 4:31 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

HenryVIII (anonymous) says...

create,
Kansas seems to be the butt of a lot of those kind of jokes... I think it's hilarious because I don't fit the stereotypical image of a Kansan. I just hope the rest of the country realizes not all Kansans are religious fanatics. With all the stuff in the news about Fred Phelps, Tiller’s murderer, the Dept of Ed, crazy missionaries from Kansas, etc, etc, etc… I can see how people might get the wrong idea. I don’t want to be associated with that stereotype, but if I move out of state who will be left here to even things out?
'enry

February 4, 2010 at 5:06 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

My brother who lives in Detroit says its not uncommon for people upon learning he came from Kansas to respond with things like.....We never dreamed you would be from Kansas...What happened to you.... that type of thing. We really have a terrible image in many places.

February 4, 2010 at 6:16 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

koalemos (anonymous) says...

It's not just the recent stuff either. Kansas was where the mindset of prohibition of liquor started by a woman who divorced her husband to marry a preacher and went on to bust up bars and saloons and spearheaded the laws of prohibition. Crazy people those Kansans. I would like to add that Kansas is the first state in our nation to permit interracial marriage so I know Kansas could be progressive if it wants.

February 4, 2010 at 6:30 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

Yea...it's almost schizophrenic at times. It was one of the first states to change it's abortion laws after Roe vs Wade also.....but look at some of the other stuff we have to deal with.

February 4, 2010 at 7:39 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

koalemos (anonymous) says...

Yeah, But Slabaugh Liquor in Strong City is always open on Sundays Makes a good road trip. :-)

February 4, 2010 at 8:04 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Steve_Corbin (anonymous) says...

koalemos,
can you post a google map link for Henry?

Sunday booze, ummmmmmmm :-)

February 4, 2010 at 8:32 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

koalemos (anonymous) says...

Google maps out the route departing Emporia west on highway 50 for 16 miles then turn south on KS 177 and travel .02 miles. Slabaugh Liquor is the third business on the right after crossing the railroad tracks. If you have already been drinking I wouldn't take that route. There is a back road that will take you there but it doesn't show up on the Google :-)

February 4, 2010 at 9:37 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

HenryVIII (anonymous) says...

Thanks, koalemos! Do they have a better selection than Olpe? How are the prices? Sometimes the ol’ lady has something in particular (fancy) she wants to try, so selection and price are pretty important to me.
I think Strong City also has a bar called "The Longhorn" or something like that... Last I knew, they had dollar draws and karaoke on Saturday night! (also fried pickles...mmmmm) Maybe I could make a whole weekend out of it... Go to bar on Sat night, find motel to stay in, wake up and buy booze Sunday morning and come home to relax with a refreshing brew. Sounds good to me! Better than going to church on Sunday morning, I can tell you that much!

Seriously, though, we need to get rid of these “blue laws” and the whole practice of backing laws based on religion. Sunday sales, prohibition, abortion, gay marriage, etc… Why can’t these people make an argument for or against something without mentioning what they think God wants? Honestly, God lets millions of people die in natural disasters (acts of God) every year. Do you really think he cares if you abort a fetus? He lets indigenous tribes believe in spirits and demons and not go to church on Sunday. Do you really think he cares if you buy beer on Sunday? Come on folks, do some thinking for yourselves next time and maybe Kansas will finally gain some respect in this country.
'enry

February 5, 2010 at 9:35 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

HenryVIII (anonymous) says...

The problem is that we normal people in Kansas don’t get notice because we tend to keep to ourselves whereas the radical crazies are always in the news making a ruckus... I'm thinking of starting a group with the sole purpose of to dispelling such stereotypes about Kansans. I'm not feeling very creative today, though. Can you folks help me come up with a clever name? Here's all I got so far:
NAKARK = Not All Kansans Are Religious Kooks
KANSANS = Kansans Against Name-calling Simpletons And Negative Stereotypes
KARP = Kansans Against Religion in Politics
KRAPS = Keep Religion And Politics Separate
EWOKS = Embarrassed With Other Kansans' Stupidity

To get some attention, we'll probably have to hold some public gatherings or something. We'll tell the media when and where we'll be meeting, but then we won't actually be demonstrating or anything. We don't want to look like those silly Tea Party participants... Instead, we won't even mention our cause while at these gatherings. We'll just eat some food, drink some booze and enjoy being around other Kansans who actually don't fit the stereotypes.
'enry

February 5, 2010 at 10:19 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

'enry

how many of us are out here I wonder.......you think maybe as many as ten or twelve....lol...:-)

February 5, 2010 at 12:36 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

koalemos (anonymous) says...

Henry,
You really aught to watch a movie called the invention of lying. It is a funny story that involves “the man in the sky.” When I first saw it I thought of you :-)

February 5, 2010 at 1:53 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

HenryVIII (anonymous) says...

koalemos,
I remember seeing previews for it, but I didn't realize there was a religious twist to it. I'll have to see if it's available for instant streaming on Netflix.
'enry

February 5, 2010 at 2:34 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

create (anonymous) says...

And I thought of you too, 'enry, when I heard Sarah Palin say that what this country needs now more than ever is "Divine intervention." The crowd -- read that the lunatic fringe or far-far-far right -- went wild.

Good comments on being from Kansas. My daughter, although born in Hawaii, was raised in Kansas since the age of 10 so when people ask her where she comes from she says Kansas. Then she gets that moment of silence and a second look of surprise followed by a frown. "I would never guess Kansas." She counters with a purposeful,

"Did you know that English is spoken most perfectly by Kansans?"

Why is that such a special comeback? She says it really stops people in their tracks because suddenly they begin to think about the the sound of their own regional dialect. In some cases, it slows people down to silence.

Of course she often finds herself defending Kansas depending on her audience, and has even used it from time to time when giving public talks. As a marketing executive with a fairly large retail company, she travels extensively so she runs into all kinds of regional dialects.

She feels like I myself have felt from time to time when I found myself defending Hawaii against those who think of that state as nothing more than palm trees, beaches, hula girls and surfing beach boys who don't have real jobs.

Just as an aside, the one place where we have lived in our travels as a military family where the regional accents were the thickest? Noo Awlins.

February 8, 2010 at 7:11 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

Who Dat

February 8, 2010 at 7:21 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

After seeing part of Palin's speech...who could shape their mouth to say that she wasn't divisive........

I have heard that before about the Kansas accent......that there is no Kansas accent. And in my travels I never recall anybody identifying me as being from Kansas...or anywhere else for that matter because of my accent. Actually it's kinda cool.

February 8, 2010 at 7:29 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

HenryVIII (anonymous) says...

Very true, create. Although the Brits would probably argue that point. ;-) That's why all the big-time national newscasters sound like us; because they don't want people with a regional accents and dialects broadcasting to the entire county. Can you imagine a CNN or Fox News person with a thick Southern drawl or maybe a Brooklyn accent? In some ways, it actually pays to live in the middle of the country.
'enry

February 9, 2010 at 8:41 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

HenryVIII (anonymous) says...

What's the deal with Lent? Can someone explain why Christians do this? I just don't understand...
'enry

February 12, 2010 at 2:17 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

HenryVIII (anonymous) says...

Go here
http://www.emporiagazette.com/polls/2...
and vote 'Yes' if you think the religious beliefs of others shouldn't take precedence over your constitutional freedoms.
Thanks!
'enry

February 12, 2010 at 4:45 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

You never give it up do you 'enry.

February 12, 2010 at 5:17 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

HenryVIII (anonymous) says...

biscuitboy,
Nope. Until I find the REAL answer to the meaning of life, I'll keep asking the questions. Unlike the religious types who seem content in believing story tales and forcing their ideals on others rather than spend their time finding the real truths...
'enry

February 15, 2010 at 1:31 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

'enry

Was musing on a number of things last evening ....one of which was the notion that your religion thread didn't work out as hoped.

I liked the idea at first and saw it as an opportunity for a serious discussion about wide ranging issues and topics of a religious nature. It didn't work out because with the exception of us two atheist, nobody else seemed the least bit interested in pursuing challenging dialogue on the subject. There were probably a number of reasons for this.....some of which have already been discussed by you and I.

It wasn't that they weren't reading the thread. We both received pot shots on other threads about things we had written on this thread. But after the first few days.....all we heard here on this thread was the sound of silence. The Catch-22 occurred when any attempt to bring up anything questioning religion by you or I on another thread was met with the response....."There is a proper thread for that discussion.....Take it over there." Never mind that they would never respond to it over here, nor that they continued to feel free to bring up religious thoughts on other threads.....they just didn't want us to respond to them.

Of course none of this is anything new. Religion has always felt threatened by anything that questions its authority. You would think that anything that purported to be the word of the singular supreme and powerful entity in existence would be less fearful of challenge. But alas....that doesn't seem to be the case.

Now I wonder how many back handed swipes I will receive about this comment on this thread that nobody ever seems to read?

February 23, 2010 at 5:27 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

Did not mean to ignore create and koalemos (or a handful of others) whom have contributed at times.....But I am comfortable in my belief that they both know I was not aiming these remarks at them anyway.

February 23, 2010 at 5:32 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

koalemos (anonymous) says...

Religion is against hell

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_h9XY...

February 23, 2010 at 7:54 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

HenryVIII (anonymous) says...

biscuitboy,
Yeah, it's too bad. I was hoping the religious folks would have a more convincing argument to defend their position. I don't, however, consider myself an atheist. An atheist believes God doesn't exist. I'm not saying I know if "God" (or Gods in general) exists, but I don't think the religious folks have enough proof to substantiate their claims. This forum was my attempt to get people on both sides to open their minds to the possibilities and share what they believe and why they believe it to be true.
You're right that religion is threatened by any kind of questioning or doubt from its members. The key is to keep people from asking questions so they continue believing what you tell them to believe. Otherwise, the institution of religion would crumble and participation would diminish. (much like this thread)

koalemos,
I actually downloaded the demo for that game on xbox live. It's an interesting story line. It's set during the middle-ages (crusade times) and this Christian soldier is told he is fighting for a cause and the people he kills deserve it and he will be rewarded for it in the afterlife. Well, when he gets shanked and almost dies, the grim reaper tells him he's going to hell for his sins. You can imagine the soldier's surprise considering all along this bishop guy was telling all the soldiers they were doing God's work. Fortunately, this soldier is apparently a pretty good fighter and he whoops the reaper's tail-end. Now, he's caught between the living realm and that of the dead. He finds his wife has been murdered and he must battle through Hell to save her soul.
Pretty neat concept for a game, but I thought it was a little odd that it featured so much (animated) female nudity... especially for a free demo that any kid with an Internet connection can download.
In all seriousness, Christians probably wouldn’t like this game because it shows there are grim consequences for blindly following men who claim to be spreading the word of God. You can’t believe everything you’re told by religious leaders because you might just end-up in Hell anyway.
'enry

February 23, 2010 at 9 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

koalemos (anonymous) says...

Actually the game is based on Dante Alighieri's fourteenth-century epic poem “Divine Comedy”

February 23, 2010 at 9:54 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

'enry

I understand you point about calling your self an atheist. I struggle at times with that myself, because I am not at all convinced there is not some supreme power in the universe that we have no notion yet of its existence. I have even read some things about God being somehow attached to singularity at the bottom of black holes.

Who knows what future proofs the universe will reveal and I am always open to considering new information. Technically that may make me more of an agnostic but I've always considered that sort of a fence-straddling cop-out position. But that is my personal hang-up, not to be confused with criticism of those that call themselves agnostics.

But it was exactly that type of open-ended questioning that I had hoped for in this thread. I am truly sorry it never developed. But like I said earlier.....for a believer to even entertain questions and doubts seems to be viewed by most as a failure of belief. Which leads back to blind acceptance as the most dangerous aspect of belief in any and all religions...not just the predominate one in this country.

Lets don't forget the forty virgins of Islam for blowing up innocents by flying planes into buildings They all have similar impossible to accept concepts.

That game does look interesting but this old man was born before humans acquired digital dexterity enough to play video games....so I'll just have to look on...:-(

February 23, 2010 at 11:20 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kxup3O...

February 23, 2010 at 11:23 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

seriouslyfolks

Have watched about half of the link you provided....enough to know that I will watch the rest and am going to try and get a copy of his book. I certainly thank you for the information.

For this is exactly the type of dialogue that I so wish to have but seems so impossible to find. Argument based on logic and reason...not just quoting verses from a book that I don't accept as true to establish a truth.

I am not going to make the mistake of responding to his beliefs in a knee-jerk fashion. It has taken him years to develop his ideas and it will take me a while to digest them before I can respond. I do appreciate the fact that he does at least pay lip service to respecting the views of non-believers. And anyone who has followed my thoughts on this matter will know that I agree with his view that polarization and refusal to respect the other's views can have no constructive outcome. I in fact again thank you for at least respecting my views enough to submit this link as a rebuttal.

Give me some time to digest his thoughts...and I am certain you will hear more of my response as it develops.

Your and my relationship is often rocky and adversarial....but I do respect you commitment to your beliefs even though that respect may not always be apparent.

February 23, 2010 at 12:17 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

Like I said earlier it is going to take time...and hopefully reading his book...before I know how I really feel about what he is trying to say. But I do have a couple of cursory thoughts going in

First it appears to me in some ways that Dr. Keller is playing the same shell game both sides have always played in discussing these matters, he's just playing it with a bit more sophistication.

I fail to see where a non-believers inability to prove there is no God in fact proves there is a God any more than I see where a believer's inability to prove there is a God in fact proves there isn't one. Neither lack of proof proves anything at all. By the same token his logic on the lack of our knowledge of a greater good or specific reason doesn't prove that there isn't such a reason sounds very much like the old rational that God works in mysterious ways. Old rational...brand new clothes. But our lack of knowledge of a greater plan neither proves or dis-proves if there is such a plan.

So then as always it comes down to personal believe and there I very much agree with him on the reasons he gave for leaning one direction or the other. But to me....the biggest reason probably lies in how comfortable the person is with unanswered questions. Some people need answers to all their questions...others are less uncomfortable with questions without answers. Some people need to believe there is a reason things happen the way they do...others are more comfortable accepting that sometimes things happen for no reason at all.

But in reality neither type of person is better or worse...nor smarter nor dumber...they just have different way of looking at things. I have no problems with that as long as one side or the other is not pushing their beliefs on the other side. And I totally agree with his assertion that mutual respect and attempts to accept and understand the others view is the only rational way to deal with the difference. To do otherwise creates a deadlock that could lead to the mutual destruction of both.

But I believe Dr. Keller may have some interesting things to say and I look forward to hearing more of his views.

February 23, 2010 at 3:26 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

koalemos (anonymous) says...

When Satin forgives God he will discover that God has forgiven him all along and the torment he has lived all this time was of his own making. That's when I will listen to a preacher.

February 23, 2010 at 9:15 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

koalemos

There was no foolishness there my friend. That was beautifully stated.

February 24, 2010 at 6:13 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...

God has nothing to be forgiven for. All offenses are against Him by His creatures one of them and the chiefest offender being Satan. As the creator God has ownership of His creation and can do with it what He wills, how He wills, when He wills.

Isaiah 46:
10Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things which have not been done,
Saying, My purpose will be established,
And I will accomplish all My good pleasure

Romans 9: 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?

Satan's Doom
7When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

February 24, 2010 at 9:45 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

To me the statement wasn't meant to take literally. To me it was a statement more about the allegorical God and Satan otherwise know as good and evil. Evil is it's own persecutor and the only way for it to be forgiven is for it to forgive itself through good. Good will have already forgiven evil for its the nature of good to forgive...it has no choice but to forgive.

That may not be what koalemos meant....but that is what it meant to me.

February 24, 2010 at 10:52 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

Here's something I read recently on why God cannot forgive Satan.....

If the devil has to be the evil one, does he then essentially have no choice. Similarly, doesn't God have to be Good. He can't choose to be evil, that would defy his nature and be paradoxical. Perhaps there's only one lake of fire and all the defiant angels go there. Who makes them go there though. What if they won't go? Do the other angels drag them there? Is there ever mutiny in heaven? Obviously, if the Devil could do what he did. Didn't God see it coming though, being able to foretell the future and everything? So essentially what he did is afford us the choice between him and the devil. So if God can't not love us, is love a one-way street from us to God, since we are the only one's with the choice? Questions, questions...

February 24, 2010 at 11:04 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

Here's is another version of the same answer......

"According to Judaism, Satan is here on Gods command to give us free will.

Having the choice to walk by and ignore someone in need, but choosing to help anyway is what makes our good deeds truly good."

But don't both of those answers then mean that God and Satan are flip sides of the same being....that one cannot exist without the other? It seems to imply that good cannot exist except in the presence of evil therefore evil is as much of God as is good. But then how is that reconciled with the concept of heaven as a place where evil does not exist? Can good even exist in evils absence? Like the other guy said....questions....and questions.....

February 24, 2010 at 11:15 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...

Good can indeed exist without evil and has. The question is would we see and appreciate good if it weren't for the contrast of evil?

People complain about evil and instead of looking to what is good they blame good for the evil.

February 24, 2010 at 11:36 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...

http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLi...

February 24, 2010 at 11:47 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

Well, in my mind, saying that good can't exist without evil is not the same as blaming good for evil. It's just that both are relative terms. They mean nothing without something to compare it too. What is hot.....if there is no cold? What is fast...if there is no slow.

I have read that in the weightlessness of space....or submerged in black water.....we can't tell up from down. Without the assistance of gravity and light to guide us we can't even feel any sensation of up or down. I think good and evil is much the same thing. If you had no evil...how would you quantify good?

But if that is true then God would have to be part of evil as much as he would be a part of good. If this is all his creation....then his creation contains evil as much as it contains good. I could except that without any angst...can a Christian accept it also? If not how do you reconcile it.

February 24, 2010 at 12:35 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

HenryVIII (anonymous) says...

seriouslyfolks,
I have read-up a bit on that author you mentioned. I'll give him credit that he is more open-minded than most ministers, preachers, etc... From what I've seen, he doesn't actually answer any of the questions posed by the “skeptical” people...at least not to the point of giving a person reason enough to change the way they live. Believers do specific things in the name of God. They go to church on Sunday, they give money to the cause, they do what the Bible tells them to, some don't dance or live with a member of the opposite sex before marriage, some don't get tattoos, some don't eat/drink certain things, some wear specific articles of clothing, some don't like homosexuals, some don't like abortion, etc etc etc... They do all this in the name of their religion or to make their God happy. We skeptics don't behave in such specific manners based on the "word" of a God that hasn't been proven to exist. If someone tells me to do something, I need to know why it is necessary. This author hasn't answer the "why" when it comes to PRACTICING religion.
I also think it is funny that most holy men would give you a Bible for free yet will charge you for their own book… Is he saying his word is worth more than the word of the Bible? Hmmm…

All,
"Good" and "Evil"... These are simply matters of opinion based on social norms in our society. For example, we may think it is "evil" to fly a plane into a building full of people. For others, this might be seen as a "good" action. In my opinion "Evil" and the "Devil" are simply excuses used to explain the behavior of people who don't go with the social norms. In the old days, people would often say someone was literally possessed by the devil or demons when they acted differently than the behavior accepted as the norm. Nowadays, people will just say their actions were influenced by the devil if they do something considered "evil" by the majority. I don't really think it is up to God or the Devil to determine what is good or evil and I don’t think either need to exist for good and evil to exist. I think we decide this for ourselves and that stories of Heaven or Hell are used as "bogey man" stories to scare us into acting in a manner that is defined as "good" by our society. Different culture and different religions have different definitions of good and evil and this is why our "Western" way of thinking clashes with other groups around the world. I think religion promotes such clashes and we'd be better off without it. I'm not saying there would be absolute peace on Earth without religion because we'd still find something to disagree about, but at least we couldn't say, "You're wrong and I'm right because my God says so and your God isn't real."

Great discussion!
'enry

February 24, 2010 at 12:36 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...

"Well, in my mind, saying that good can't exist without evil is not the same as blaming good for evil. It's just that both are relative terms. They mean nothing without something to compare it too. What is hot.....if there is no cold? What is fast...if there is no slow."

God is infinite and God created man so man is created and cannot be infinite. God is omniscient so He knows man is finite and can not grasp good without also grasping evil. Thus evil is there so that we can see good for what it is. Good did exist without evil even if we can't imagine that it did. We have a beginning and an end and it is hard if not impossible for us to imagine something that doesn't.

'enry

Did you watch the video I linked? You say you have questions and Dr. Keller answers some that you have asked. They may not be the answers you are looking for but they are answers. I have my doubts whether you are even serious about wanting to hear answers. I think that you are just so convinced by your own "logic" that you assume once people hear it that they will just "see the light" and agree with you. I could be wrong on that but from what I've seen from you I doubt it.

Seriously Reformed Folks

February 24, 2010 at 1:26 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

HenryVIII (anonymous) says...

How do you know God created man? How do you know God is omniscient? These are the type of questions your author and his video fail to answer. The author may suggest reasons why there might be a God, but that's not enough if you want people to devote their entire lives to your cause and worship an elusive entity.

Your argument for good and evil is like saying there is only an "up" because there is a "down". If we didn't have a "down" it would be hard to understand (or explain) what "up" was. Of course, up and down have little meaning in the scheme of the entire universe. Down is only down until you get to the other half of the Earth and then you're backwards. Up and down work in relation to the direction to and from the Earth's core, but little else. Good and evil work in relation to one's opinion of what is acceptable behavior, but little else. Good, evil, up, down...These are just words created by MAN (not God) to describe what they observe around them. You are suggesting God created the concept of "evil" because we humans are too stupid to comprehend "good" without it. How can that be? Didn't God create us? Why did he make us so stupid then? If God is indeed all powerful, why not just "reprogram" us so we can grasp such things without allow so many people to be harmed by evil? Doesn't he care about his creation enough to make us better or would he rather people suffer because he lacks the ability to fix us? You claim God is all powerful, yet you make excuses for his shortcomings. Isn't God infallible?
It was once thought the world was flat, but luckily someone rejected the common belief and did some investigating to discover otherwise. Don’t you want to do some investigating on your own instead of believing what people wrote in a book 2000 years ago?

You do make a good point about how we perceive time with beginnings and ends. (very similar to up and down) Again, these are just terms we use to describe occurrences we observe. In my opinion, our concept of time (linear) is one of the things holding us back in discovering why we're really here. This is why religious folks can't say what came before God; they just say he's always been here.(convenient excuse) This is also why science can't really explain what happened before the Big Bang. We expect there to be a clear-cut "beginning" and our current idea of time doesn't allow us to understand how that could be. It just doesn't make any sense to us. I don't know the answers yet, but I can tell you that you probably won't find them in your Bible. Ever seen The Matrix? (movie) Well, think of religion as the Matrix. It's a system that keeps people blinded from seeing what is really going on. Your church wants you to only see what they tell you to see to keep you complacent. I, like Morpheus, want you to open your mind and discover for yourself what is really happening. Even if the idea makes you a little uncomfortable, at least you won’t be living a lie.
'enry

February 24, 2010 at 3:09 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

koalemos (anonymous) says...

God created man and told man not to partake in the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. God knew man wasn’t capable of comprehending this knowledge. That is why God said don’t partake in it. Man disobeyed God and partook in the fruit anyway. Now man points his finger at another man and calls him evil and because the other man disagrees, there is war.

February 24, 2010 at 3:17 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

HenryVIII (anonymous) says...

koalemos,
Has that been proven? Sounds like another "bogey man" story to me... The moral of the story is to do what you're told or be punished. These kinds of stories are meant to keep people in line. Same goes for the Noah's Ark story; if you don't do as you're told and act like certain people think you should, you'll be destroyed. The overall message of the Bible is a moral story; be “good” or go to Hell. These stories (or cautionary tales) are meant to mold impressionable minds into acting as the religious folks (other humans not God) see fit. These stories do not prove the existence of God nor do they prove this is actually how he wants us to act.

You know what they say, "If you shake it more than 3 times you'll go blind!" This is another example of a moral story created by man to get people to act in a manner deemed "good" by others. "Be good or Santa will put coal in your stocking!" Yet another example of a story created by man to influence the simple minded (kids) into being "good". God didn't come up with these things, humans did. Why do you think the cautionary tales in the Bible are any different?
'enry

February 24, 2010 at 3:58 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

I certainly agree that good and evil exist within each of us irregardless of their connection to or part of God and Satan. But I believe 'enry and I are saying much the same thing about the relativity of good and evil. What is good to one is evil to another...and we measure relative concepts of good or evil against the counterpart.

So seriouslyfolks may have a point in what I believe is his assertion that only a God (or the God in his view) takes the relativity out of the equation. If good and evil were only a matter of perspective then it could be argued that good and evil didn't really even exist.....then you have a state of logical anarchy. If that is true then only a god is really capable to codify or quantify good and evil in any thing more than a constantly moving balance of one thing against another. God then is the only thing that brings stability to the definition of good and evil. That doesn't prove the existence of God...but it does give a boost to the value and purpose of a belief in God.

I hate it when I get into circular reasoning.....

February 24, 2010 at 4:17 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

koalemos (anonymous) says...

The things you can see and touch don't concern me. My faith allows me to know that everything I need will be provided in my time of need. I have wasted time chasing material things only to watch time take it's toll on my possessions and my soul. The more I accumulated, the more I worried. One day I realized that all that crap was weighing me down and keeping me from living my life. It was like someone took a large weight off my back and since then I have enjoyed life and have quit worrying because I know that I have everything that I need and really couldn't ask for much more.

February 24, 2010 at 5:08 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose~~Me and Bobbi Mcgee

I have only recently really come to understand those words.

I have come to a point in my life that on casual observance would appear to be cause for wailing and gnashing of teeth....(a wonderful descriptive biblical phrase by the way). Everyday that I live I know may well be the best day I have left to live. My health is beginning to fail.....my ability to continue to support myself both financially and physically is fading fast.....I know I will never again in my life experience the thrill of buying a new car--much less the thrill of falling in love again.....My friends become fewer and fewer and my ability to form new friendships is limited by lack of opportunity. I have a bad heart and could die at anytime. And I don't believe in God

A recipe for misery......right? Wrong...... I have never been more content and at peace with myself in my life. Why....because I have nothing left to gain....nothing left to lose...and nothing left to fret over.

I have my peace, my thoughts, my books and my dogs...what else could I possibly need?.......Nothing left to lose!

February 24, 2010 at 5:38 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...

"Now man points his finger at another man and calls him evil and because the other man disagrees, there is war."

This no doubt happens but instead of pointing a finger at another man and calling him evil I looked into myself and saw that I was evil. My younger life that led me to join the Army was full of screw ups. I blamed this and that and the other, everything except me. In the Army I met and talked to a lot of people with different religions and up to that point I was much like 'enry in the fact that I was very antagonistic toward the concept of a god or gods or any of that. I had a lot of time to think while on gaurd duty or CQ or what ever other duty they had me do that left me nothing to do but think and I realized the problem was me. Cool, I can fix that, right? Well I tried. Some friends invited me to church and I said "no, I'm not ready for anything like that yet. I'm not good enough but I'm working on it." The more I tried the more I failed. Then I was talking to a guy that was always reading the Bible and talking about Jesus and stuff. I would ask him some questions and try to stump him but I never could. He always had an answer from the Bible. I went from not believing to believing by hearing what the Bible had to say. As I have studied the Bible since then I realize that that is how one comes to faith, by hearing the word. That is why I quote it more than using my own words to try to convince any of you. Not to take anything away from Dr. Keller but I don't want you to believe that a God exists if you don't know who God is. I don't want you to know who God is because I want you to behave a certain way or vote a certain way or anything like that but because I would like you to expierience the joy that I have found in being forgiven by the Creator of the universe by His grace through faith. Faith that He is the creator and mankind is fallen and is dead sin, sin against Him, and He sent His son into the world to live the perfect life that we can not and die the death that we deserve. Jesus death completely satisfied God's wrath against mankind because of His righteous life and because of His death Jesus' righteousness is imputed to all who believe in Him.

February 24, 2010 at 7:07 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...

This may sound strange to most because it seems that most people hold to some kind of works based religion where they can/have to work there way into heaven. I understand where they are coming from but I think they have a low view of God and a too big view of mankind and it's ability to redeem it's self. When the Bible says that we are dead in sin, I believe that just as a dead man can not recessitate himself neuther can a spiritually dead person do anything to work his way back into God's good grace. That is why I believe that Jesus' life and death were absolutely necessary.

A proper understanding of grace doesn't cause a person to think he is better than any other. It cause a person to see themself for what they are which is no better than any other and in need of a savior.

February 24, 2010 at 7:08 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...

'enry
"Ever seen The Matrix? (movie) Well, think of religion as the Matrix. It's a system that keeps people blinded from seeing what is really going on. Your church wants you to only see what they tell you to see to keep you complacent. I, like Morpheus, want you to open your mind and discover for yourself what is really happening."
You've got it backwards. The world wants to keep you blind and I'm Morpheus. You see Morpheus already took the pill to open his eyes as I have. You have neither taken the pill or even have a pill to take or give. If you want to truely see read my above posts. There will be more to come.

Seriously Morpheus

February 24, 2010 at 9:02 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...

Kaolemos

Your last post was awesome.

February 24, 2010 at 9:04 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

koalemos (anonymous) says...

seriouslyfolks, I like that Morpheus bit too. You have to think about the worrisome moments of your past to realize there was never any reason to worry. Worries come from the desire of "things" and fear comes from though of loosing "things" but worries are overcome with faith. I have overcome obstacles that at the time seemed insurmountable and I have witnessed what could only be described as miracles so having faith is easy for me.

The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.
He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.

He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.

Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.

Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.

Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.

February 24, 2010 at 11:09 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

seriouslyfolks

Your 7;07 p.m. post, and the two that immediately followed it, were pretty awesome themselves. Was probably the best description of your belief that I remember you giving. And as stated there,it is a belief that I hold a lot of respect for.

It is apparently very difficult for some people to respect something they don't accept as "truth" or valid....but I am not one of those people. I can disagree with something and still hold it in high regard....and that is how I feel about that description of your belief It showed a compassionate reflective side of you I often don't see in many of your other post...and I respect that side.

February 25, 2010 at 3:57 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

I am certain you often don't see the incredibly nice guy that I really am in some of my post either....☺☺☺

February 25, 2010 at 4:06 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

Earlier I was saying that I recognized that God...or a god....was important if not necessary in removing good and evil from the realm of constantly changing comparisons of relativity. In the world that we live in here in Emporia,Ks in 2010 I have no great discomfort with that. But I make that statement despite religion...not because of it.

Religion's very importance, indeed dominance, in codifying good and evil is also it's biggest danger to those of us it purports to protect. In my opinion, its role in this capacity must always be held in some check. For us, in this place and at this time, those checks and balances are provided for primarily by a government prohibition of the establishment of a state religion.

If such checks and balances are not in place religion then runs the same risk of falling prey to avarice and vice as do the people that control its business. In fact the risk is probably even greater due to religion's view of itself as the appointed arbiter of the word of God. Failure to recognize this is failure to recognize the lessons of history. The Inquisition and the myriad other state sanctioned excess of Christianity were a direct result of religion run amok. You don't have to look any further than the Taliban or some of the other outrages that spring forth from the Islamic Republics today to see proof of the danger of unchecked religion.

So my fear of religion is not at all based on any fear of the good it can and does do. In fact I think we are better off because of the moral compass provided by religion. A compass I use almost exclusively to define my moral parameters.

I live a fairly "Christian" life without actually being a Christian. But I can only do that as long as religion doesn't become the sole arbiter of good and evil. Because once it does.....I become evil....Not because of what I do....but because of what I don't believe. Once that is allowed to happen to me, how long will it be before it happens to you? How long will it be before you are hauled into a soccer stadium and shot in the head because you didn't believe properly?

February 25, 2010 at 6:47 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

I at times have been accused of hating Christians ....and even of hating God....because of my opposition to things like prayer in schools, school sponsored Christmas programs, and other state sanctioned displays of religious preference.

Such accusations range from false to silly. I don't oppose state sanctioned displays of religious preference because I hate Christians. I have said many times that all of my family....and most of the other people I have loved in my life were Christian....I certainly didn't hate them because of it. I don't even oppose them because I believe they are all harmful. I personally had no problem with the Christmas Program...In fact I enjoyed it very much and thought it was beautifully done. I do have a stronger objection to prayer in the classroom.

But the objection is primarily because of my fear of anything that moves us one step closer to recognizing any religion as the official religion of the United States. Because that then moves us very close to being a Christian Republic...which is only one word away from Islamic Republic.....and which is only a short distance then to the soccer field.

As to hating God. There is no possible way for me to hate God. To hate requires a strong emotional attachment. It is impossible to have a strong emotional attachment to something that you don't accept as real. To me that is a silly as saying someone hates the tooth fairy....nobody really hates the tooth fairy. I can and have hated things that were done in the name of God.....but that is hatred of those things, not of the name they were done in.

February 25, 2010 at 7:39 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...

Having no religion allowed can, has, and will have the same effect of gather people up and killing them as allowing only one. Like Dr. Keller said our founding fathers were a mix of the religious and the secular and they designed our government to accommodate both which I feel is a good thing. I have had the(our) government used as a weapon against me and I will not do that to another person. I don't want our government to try to force any religion on any one especially not mine. Know how one come to true Christian faith I know that it can't be forced on someone anyway. Does this mean that my faith won't influence the way I see the issues? Of course not. That being said I can't in good conscious vote for anyone who has a chance of winning anyway because the only two choices we have for candidates that will win belong to parties that are so corrupt it makes me sick. So my vote is pretty much out the window. I will speak my mind on how I see the issues and you can take from it what you will our just reject it because of your knowledge of where I'm coming from and your rejection of that as a valid basis for my argument. The old saying "sticks and stones will break my bones but words will never hurt me" comes to mind. I am not about to use sticks and stones on anyone, only words, and if words hurt someone they are the one with the problem as far as I'm concerned. Well that's not entirely true there are some hurtful words(I'm not talking about curse word but insulting phrases) but I try to steer clear of those but sometimes fail.

February 25, 2010 at 9:23 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...

I used to hate god with a passion and that is when I didn't believe god existed. It is possible to do. It's interesting, I was talking to a friend of mine at work a couple of years ago and he said he would more easily believe in God if God showed him some miracle and he asked me why there aren't miracles anymore. I said there are. I have seen my life transformed as well as others lives. Not just in quitting drugs or becoming a "better" person but deep changes in fundamental beliefs. Remember cracknsack? The similarities between the old me and cracknsack are astounding. The only thing that differed greatly is the fact that I was a smoker( pack a day at least). Can you imagine someone like that changing that much? I don't have to imagine it, I lived it. One of my favorite sayings is "There, but for the grace of God, go I." believe it or not Yoda didn't say that. What it means is that if it wasn't for God's grace I would be someone else. I can't look down on people because I didn't lift myself up to be where I am but was lifted by God. I have nothing to boast about and nothing of myself to make me feel superior to anyone. All glory to God. John the baptist said " He must increase and I must decrease." He was talking to the people following him at the time and told them that they should see him(John) for anything more than just a man but their view of Jesus must increase so they would see Him for who He is which is God. Like John I don't want people to see what's been done to me and think that it's something I did but see it for what it is, something that God did.

February 25, 2010 at 9:24 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

seriouslyfolks, you wrote.....

Having no religion allowed can, has, and will have the same effect of gather people up and killing them as allowing only one. Like Dr. Keller said our founding fathers were a mix of the religious and the secular and they designed our government to accommodate both which I feel is a good thing.

My friend, I could not agree more. I am not a threat to you. To the extent that I disagree with some of your statements on religion is more an effort to explain my position than an effort to belittle or disrespect yours. I am comfortable with coexistence. ...and mutual respect. I too however fall prey to using insulting phrases and over-generalizations at times.....a failing for which I apologize.

As to our political difference. Some I'm sure are based on our religious views (or lack of them as the case may be).....but many are just based on our different way of looking at more secular things as well. I don't expect any change there in the near future. But I keep hoping that soon you will come to realize that left is best.....☺☺☺

February 25, 2010 at 10:06 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...

Not going to happen. lol

I have been thinking recently about how some of the goals of the right and left are the same but they won't admit it because they are afraid to let them selves be associated with the other. I think things like feeding the poor and the like are common goals of both sides. How that gets done is what starts the fights and then the goal seems to get lost in the fight over the "how". Liberals are ............... liberal and seem to just want to throw liberal amounts of money out and it will get done but the well will eventually run dry and then you end up with more hungry mouths than you started with. Conservatives are conservative to the point that there is so much caution going in that it may not get done at all. If the two worked together and softened each others hard edges I think things could get done and done well. I am not going to hold my breath that this will happen though. Cest la vive.

February 25, 2010 at 10:30 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

And once again I agree. But we don't want to make a habit of all this agreeing on everything or things will start to get boring around here.

Seriously though seriously, I do think that is the value of forums like this. Ideological differences often keep people at each others throats....but if you can just keep them talking long enough they often find they are not that far apart. Take tbluma and I as an example. We started out quite hostile to each other....but over time I have come to realize he is not the wide eyed radical I once thought he was...and he has softened somewhat in his view of me. We at times now find ourselves on the same side of the fence.

But the key is to avoid the pitfall the two major political parties have fallen into....each side an armed camp that accepts nor offers any quarter to or from the other side. Like I said earlier...such a deadlock strategy runs a serious risk of the mutual destruction of both camps. As long as you are talking.....you are not fighting.....as long as you are not fighting....there remains a chance that you won't start. Once the fighting starts.....both sides have lost.

February 25, 2010 at 11:01 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...

That's why I sometimes refer to the political parties as teams. They both just want to win but this isn't a game to be won, it's life. Life can't be won but eternal life can and has through the life, death and, resurrection of Jesus the Christ to all who believe in Him. I just thought I'd bring the discussion back to religion. :-)

February 25, 2010 at 11:23 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

In my humble opinion, over the past couple of days, this thread has finally lived up to the potential it set out to achieve.
A place where people with differing views on things could come together in an attempt to better understand each other and find common ground. Hopefully it may happen again.

And seriouslyfolks, I sincerely thank you for sharing your thoughts with me and listening to mine...all in a thoughtful and considerate manner. And I still intend to get a copy of Dr Kellers book.

February 25, 2010 at 11:43 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

As to the difference between Republicans and Democrats and how they view feeding the poor.....

Democrats want to spend lots of money to feed all the poor with out limitations.

Republicans want to spend less money only feeding the poor that follow their rules.

February 26, 2010 at 3:16 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...

Yes Democrats don't care if people follow the rules so they don't care about the fraud that will bankrupt us thus producing more poor mouths to feed. Anarchy is very expensive and dangerous. Rules are a good thing.

February 26, 2010 at 9:31 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

Forcing everybody to live by the rules you set might arguably be cheaper at times...but is equally dangerous to the maintenance of this freedom we all like to talk about.

How good rules are depend on who made them and why they were made. Our friend Saddam had lots of rules...so did Joseph Stalin....were they all good things?

February 26, 2010 at 9:57 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

Anarchy is not expensive to governments at all.....Anarchy is in fact right wing to the extreme...no government!

February 26, 2010 at 10 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...

One thing I've noticed this morning is that you seem to want to fight with me and I'm just not going to do that. I hope all is well with you and that you are just in a bad mood today. I'm going to check out for a while and when I come back I hope our conversation can be more like it has been the last couple of days and not like it has started out today. I sincerely hope all is well with you. Have a great day.

February 26, 2010 at 10:40 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

And I hope you have a great day as well. I'm sorry that you have interpreted my expressing a different view than yours as my just wanting to fight. I thought I just wanted to present a different view. Oh Well!

February 26, 2010 at 11:09 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

HenryVIII (anonymous) says...

Have you ever seen those episodes of Star Trek The Next Generation (with Capt Picard) that featured a character dubbed "Q"? I saw one the other day and I've always found them interesting. "Q" is not a god (according to many religious beliefs) because he didn't create the human race. He does, however, have many powers that make him seem god-like. "Q" is immortal and is able to manipulate time and space to be anywhere and anytime he wants to be. Apparently, there are also others like him (also called Q) who generally don’t care to bother dealing with humans. I find this whole concept interesting because it illuminates how important perspective is. We humans have a certain mindset and I think that prevents us from grasping things. Our way of thinking makes things seem impossible or unexplainable, but to another being out there in the universe, it might make perfect sense. I can only hope that we'll meet such a being in my lifetime or perhaps all will be explained to me when I expire. Either way, I'm excited to see the outcome.
'enry

February 26, 2010 at 11:28 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

Sorry 'enry about continuing the diversion off topic for a moment...but there are a couple of things that are bothering me.

I thought my comparison of Democrats and Republicans feeding the poor was fair and quite non-partisan. Both equally negative. The key words in each were;
~~spend lots of money....without limitations
~~only feeding the poor that follow THEIR (caps added) rules.

My non-partisan statements was met with another partisan response and then I was accussed of wanting to fight. Some days you can't win.

February 26, 2010 at 12:09 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

HenryVIII (anonymous) says...

biscuitboy,
It seems to me that...
Democrats are more tolerant of people of different beliefs, but in doing so they alienate their "own kind" by not providing for them as well as they could if they weren't using resources helping everyone else.

Republicans are less likely to approve of the way others live (gay marriage, abortion, religion, etc), but they take better care of their own by strongly supporting only what they believe to be correct and providing benefits only to those from the same walk of life.

Tolerance vs. Loyalty, I guess. Which is more important in your mind?
'enry

February 26, 2010 at 3:47 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

'enry

Now that is a good question! I just got home and have a number of things on my plate at the moment......but I like that question and will get back with you on it.

Incidentally.....I thought your Dem.--Repub. comparison was the best of the three. The only thing I might add to your democratic descriptions would be something along the line of.....in the end the often end up really satisfying nobody...or something like that.

February 26, 2010 at 5:22 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

koalemos (anonymous) says...

I know that Santa is Real because I caught him eating the cookies.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLrFfQ...

February 26, 2010 at 10:54 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

The reason I like your comparison best 'enry is because it applies so well to real life. But I think we might be better served to change what we are comparing from Republican-Democrat to Liberal-Conservative. I say that because though both parties are based on the respective ideologies...neither is totally true to it. And yet that ideology continues to drive how the two party's view themselves.

But as you stated...conservatives (Republicans) have developed a much more cohesive loyal base because of their selectivity in what they will tolerate in their ideology. This narrow tent approach has allowed them to develop an extremely loyal but narrow base by never varying the message the base receives. Up until recently it had worked very well for them in winning elections with a tightly focused base turning out with an almost fanatical loyalty.

Though described as the big tent party because of their tolerance of others...Liberals (Democrats) really seem to have little identifiable base at all. Few people actually describe themselves as liberals, so what makes up the liberal party at any given time is a loosely knit hodgepodge of wildly differing ideologies that often have only one common characteristic.....they are not conservative. Because of this the party often spends as much time fighting within its self as it does fighting the conservative opposition. This makes for a base that is often dissatisfied, unmotivated and unwilling to support the movement except when an unusually charismatic leader comes forth that can bind the different groups together long enough to get elected.

February 27, 2010 at 4:59 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

In my mind, these ideological differences, especially in my lifetime, have worked more to the advantage of the conservatives. This culminated with the republican revolution that took over Congress during the Clinton administration and resulted in a full house for them with the Election of George W. Bush. While the liberals fought among themselves the conservatives cohesion gained them full control.

The problem for them started however for two primary reasons. The political wing of the party was not really conservative in its values...thereby alienating its political base. The social wing became drunk with its power and became so restrictive in what it allowed in....it started alienating the moderates that had heretofore remained loyal outcast.

Then with the arrival of a highly charismatic leader for the liberals and the stage was set for the conservative train wreck of 2008. Almost before the ink dried on all the new oaths of office however both groups returned to what had made them famous. The conservatives coalesced around the base...dug in its heels and began the tactic that become known as the party of NO. The liberals meanwhile did what they do best. The loose coalition of disparate groups fell apart as one group fought another group and what had been called a super-majority became anything but. Which brings us to where we are today.
But this scenario does in my mind paint a very accurate picture of the relative good and bad parts of both tolerance and loyalty.....And how both can when carried to an extreme be very destructive. And this ying and yang of both tolerance and loyalty is probably played out as much or more in the religious theatre as in the political one.

February 27, 2010 at 7:14 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

koalemos (anonymous) says...

I lost all respect for the Democratic Party after they regained a majority in the house and Nancy Pelosi said that impeachment was off the table.

February 27, 2010 at 7:41 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

I have lost a lot of respect for the Democratic Party for a number of reasons. But that would never translate to support for the Republican party as it exist today either.

February 27, 2010 at 8:08 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

koalemos (anonymous) says...

The republican party has proven to be the biggest enemy of the Constitution of the United States of America and should be disbanded and outlawed before they get another majority in the house, senate, executive and judicial branches of our government again. That always turns into disaster of global proportions. Just look at their history.

February 27, 2010 at 8:19 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

Which is exactly why I said my disappointment with the dems does not translate into support for the republicans.

The problem I see with third parties at present is that most of them seem to exist in the extremes. Most are far to the right of the repubs either fiscally, or socially, or both...or they are far left socialist tree-huggers and peaceniks. Neither appeals to the vast majority of Americans that live somewhere in the middle. If a truly moderate party based on common sense and what was best for all of us were to arise I would support them in a heartbeat.

February 27, 2010 at 9:30 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

HenryVIII (anonymous) says...

koalemos,
I rented "The Invention of Lying" the other day. Thanks for the recommendation. It was pretty funny and certainly made you think about how fictional stories can be considered truth if accepted by enough people. I wonder if that's actually how it all started...
'enry

March 1, 2010 at 9:11 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

koalemos (anonymous) says...

The Man in the Sky forbids that kind of question. It's true!...I read it on a pizza box somewhere :-)

March 1, 2010 at 9:25 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Nobody (anonymous) says...

Henry and others.... I just have to share with you; turned t.v. on at 3:00 a.m. this morning and there was a catholic priest talking who said when a catholic goes to communion, they believe they are receiving the "ACTUAL body and blood of Christ." It is not symbolic of the body and blood, it is ACTUALLY the body and blood of Christ. I am a non practicing catholic and knew they taught this growing up, but how on earth can a person even think such a thing when going to communion? This confimed my beliefs of remaining an agnostic. -- put that one in perspective for me 'enry. You always continue to express your thoughts in such a way that I continue to ask myself verbally, that I haven't been able to do before meeting you on this thread.

March 2, 2010 at 9:06 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

HenryVIII (anonymous) says...

I find it hard to take Conservatives seriously because they base most of their values on what is pleasing to "The Man in the Sky". Think about this... What if we had a 3rd major political party in this country whose members still believed in the Greek gods? What if they were always going on about how we need to do this to please one god or do that to please another? Would the conservatives take them seriously? If not, why do they expect to be taken seriously themselves?
I believe organized religion is for the fearful, gullible, and naive. Why would you want those types of people leading our country? Maybe I'm wrong and we just need to build a big temple for the Sun god so he stops global warming... Maybe we need to sacrifice a bunch of cattle for the economy god so he'll bestow wealth upon us... If you think that sounds silly, why does going to church on Sunday to improve your favor with the gods make any sense? If you’re naive enough to believe in a "man in the sky" without any proof to back your claim, I don't want you making governmental decisions that impact me. Let's leave that to a more reasonable person.
'enry

March 2, 2010 at 9:17 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Nobody (anonymous) says...

I knew you would have a good response 'enry. I also believe religion is for the weak minded........ just turn everything over to god and he'll take care of you. it's easier that way to deal with life for those who are weak minded. it's easier to believe a person is in heaven, in order to cope with a death,etc., etc.
just my own opinion. As for our politicians and god blessing America all the time is another story..... why do they feel compelled to even say it.

March 2, 2010 at 10:10 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Steve_Corbin (anonymous) says...

o.k. SOME BELIEVE some don't.

To call those who believe "fearful, gullible and naive" or as nobody said"weak minded" serves no purpose.

And for a believer to call a non-believer a sinner or damned or whatever also serves no purpose.

So what purpose did you hope to serve, henry, when you started this thread other than to pit people against each other?

March 2, 2010 at 11:19 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Nobody (anonymous) says...

Hey Mr. Corbin, It's o.k. if Henry and I share our thoughts with each other. We may make a person who is religious even stronger in their faith by our comments OR to help those who are asking themselves the same questions, as Henry and I have, make up their mind what to believe or not to believe in. What's the problem with that my friend???

March 2, 2010 at 11:30 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

HenryVIII (anonymous) says...

You're right, Steve. I was a bit harsh there and I apologize. I feel folks should be free to believe whatever they like. I just get a little fired-up when it comes to religion in politics. If I told you I truly believed in "The Force" (Star Wars), would you really want me to be your representative in Congress? Before you answer, let me remind you not to underestimate the power of the dark side. ;-) May the Force bless America!
Seriously though... If it isn't being fearful, gullible, or naive that leads one to put their faith in a mystical being, then what is it? Common sense? An educated guess? A proven fact? Blind hope? While I've enjoyed reading the responses in this thread, no one has been able to tell me "why" they believe and/or why I should believe. Am I missing something or are believers really fearful, gullible, and naive? I could be wrong; I'm just looking for some reasoning I can understand that proves me wrong.

Nobody,
Ah, communion… This is a prime example of the religious mindset. I don't know how these things ever became tradition, but I don't understand why no one questions why they need to partake in such things now. If God exists, does he really think it's necessary to eat crackers and drink wine? Couldn't that time and money be spent helping others instead? I asked about lent above, but no one really addressed it.

I know what you mean about how people say "God Bless America" all the time. Sometimes even non-believers will say it. It's similar to having "In God We Trust" written on our money and other governmental stuff. I think it's just a short, easy, and generally accepted way of saying you are hoping for the best.
"God Bless America" = "I hope only good things happen for America."
"In God We Trust" = "I trust that everything will go well for us."
"Merry Christmas" = "I hope you have a good holiday."
"Bless you" = "Hey, you just sneezed and that was awkward so I thought I would say something."
I'm not really offended by these sayings because I know most people don't use them in the literal sense. I mean, I don't think most people actually think God will bless us simply because we say it and I don't think most people really put their full trust in God either. If they did, they'd never have to worry about anything and that would lead to a lot of problems. I have disassociated the religious meaning of these sayings from the actual phrases and I think a lot of other people have as well.
'enry

March 2, 2010 at 4:29 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

HenryVIII (anonymous) says...

I'm so glad I found my old forum! Now...how to get people to post here again...
'enry

June 10, 2010 at 10:34 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

create (anonymous) says...

Ah, Henry, this is the perfect season for this post. Yes, they will come. Give it time.

July 21, 2010 at 6:55 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

HenryVIII (anonymous) says...

Pro-life choice - by Dale Free
http://www.emporiagazette.com/news/20...
The Gazette staff (The Bible Bunch) wants me to "verify" or "validate" my account or some such privacy invading nonsense before I'm allowed to post to that story, so I'll just do it here.

Dale states, "The life issue it too important to reduce it to a campaign weapon within the pro-life community."
I want to know WHY it is so important, Dale. I can see where you might be upset if someone was forcing YOU to abort a fetus, but nobody is saying that. Nobody is forcing you to do anything to your body. Why do you want to force others to carry an unwanted fetus to term? It's not your body and not your decision to make!

I think conservatives just LOVE to tell others how to live "correctly". The problem is what is "correct" is merely a figment of their imagination. Politicians who want to enact right-stripping laws in the name of their deity should be thrown out of office. Give me the "WHY" or the facts about how abortion is supposedly bad for our society. Anybody?

Additionally, who else thinks the Gazette is gutless for not allowing open comments on the pro-life article? What are you, Gazette? A community newspaper or a Christian propaganda machine?
'enry

July 21, 2010 at 8:18 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...

'enry,

You were one of the ones who insisted that there be a law to protect people from the harm of shs. Why should there be such a law? Could you show me some facts that show that harming others is "incorrect" living? Where do you get that doing harm to others is wrong? That sounds like mushy sentimental mumbo jumbo over emotional talk. Please do not quote some other persons opinion on the subject, I want facts. Why is harming others "incorrect" living. FACTS ONLY PLEASE.

July 21, 2010 at 1:24 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

HenryVIII (anonymous) says...

seriouslyfolks,
There are all kinds of studies showing SHS is harmful. If you don't believe studies, just observe your own body's reaction to it. Did you know you can die from smoke inhalation? (that's a fact) Why put something so dangerous in someone else's lungs?
Harming others is "incorrect" in our society because that is what the majority of the PEOPLE believe. (not what Santa Claus thinks) Constitutional law is based on what WE think is right and therefore it is factual. The Bible is based on what some fictional man in the sky supposedly thinks is correct so it cannot be considered factual.

The FACT is that it is illegal to harm others against their will in this country. It is NOT illegal to smoke, drink booze, get tattoos, get piercings, get your tubes tied, get implants, get a vasectomy, get a sex change, etc... AND it shouldn't be illegal to have an abortion either! It's your body, so it's your choice. If it doesn't hurt anyone else; it's none of your concern.

We are allowed to vote on things like smoking in public because it impacts everyone; not just the person doing it. We shouldn't be allowed to vote on abortion because it only affects the person doing it. I know what you're thinking, but a fetus is not a person. You're not a person until you are able to survive without leaching off another entity. Until that time, it's just a part of your own body. If I have a growth of living cells protruding off the side of my face, are you telling me I don't have the right to chop it off? It's my tumor, so I can do as I please!

Something I don't understand is that these same people who are against abortion are also the ones who believe in God and Heaven and all... If there is a God (and he actually cares), why does he allow us to abort fetuses? Since fetuses are supposedly "without sin", wouldn't they just go to Heaven anyway? Who are these people trying to protect? Why does it matter? Isn't it all just part of "God's plan" and we should just go with it?
'enry

July 21, 2010 at 5:18 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

REWBA (anonymous) says...

But one of the soldiers had pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water had come out. Jesus suddenly cried out again with a loud voice and died.

I wish Jesus would come into my heart. He won't even let me say I'm sorry. I was really young back then.

If you find Jesus in your life, hold on to him and call me! I have some questions to ask of him.

July 22, 2010 at 1:52 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...

Read my questions again 'enry. I did not ask for facts that shs was harmful to people, I asked for facts showing that it is "wrong" to harm others. You have no arguement for your cause if you demand facts from others for their beliefs but can't even prove that harming others is "wrong" which is the very basis of your arguement about pushing your ideals on others. Prove it with facts once and for all that there is something wrong with harming others. Remember no "emotions" no "feelings" no "I think"s just facts.

July 22, 2010 at 9:49 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...

John 6:36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

Rewba

"He won't even let me say I'm sorry."
If you really believed and were sorry He would not cast you out and He would forgive you.

"If you find Jesus in your life, hold on to him"

"It is not your hold of Christ that saves, but his hold of you!" -
C.H. Spurgeon

"call me! I have some questions to ask of him."

http://www.biblegateway.com/

July 22, 2010 at 10:02 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

HenryVIII (anonymous) says...

seriouslyfoks,
I know what you're trying to do, so I'll just concede. There are no "facts" (other than the laws we humans have decided upon) to prove harming people is bad. So, I guess we agree that it is ok to abort fetuses because those aren't even people. Right? I'm glad you're on my side now. So why do conservatives think abortion so important when it comes to governing the people?

If you harm or kill a person it usually has an adverse affect on society. (family distraught, work doesn't get done, family loses income and isn't fed, etc) This isn't the case when you abort a fetus. There are no observable repercussions for doing this; nothing changes. If I'm harmed or killed, I can't contribute to society. Therefore, the fact is society would suffer and that is considered "wrong". An aborted fetus does not affect society in anyway because it isn't a contributing member of society. 'enry

Henry 8:13 But I said to you that you haven't seen me, but I'll try to convince you that you have by talking about a man in the sky all day. 14 For I'm working a scam here and don't want to have to do a real job that contributes to society. 15 My dad is cooler than yours because he lives in the clouds and the streets are paved in gold. 16 Do what I say or you won't live on the gold street, but burn in fire instead!
(this quote is just as meaningful as yours)

July 22, 2010 at 11:56 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...

You don't even see me as a human that has the same rights as you so I guess I can't expect you to see an unborn baby as a human. You say that society makes up the rules for it's self and I am part of society(a veteran at that :-) ) but you want my views discarded because of how my views were shaped and the origin of them(you can't even point to anything that has shaped your views. I can only guess that you made them up.) Not only do you want to discard my views but those of with similar views that did not get them from the same place I did. There are people who believe abortion is wrong that come from other religions and no religion at all. By you saying we should not have a right to use the government to stop what we believe to be murder(which is already illegal and rightly so) you are saying that we don't have the same rights as the other humans in this country and hence, less than human. You are going to have to get used to it or get rid of religious freedom which you lie about and say that you don't want to do. Now you will say that people can believe what they want they just can't .. yada yada yada. Well, you see that if one must trade their right to vote their conscious as you do for their religious beliefs that is not true religious freedom. You can vote how you want because it makes sense to you but you don't want others voting in a way that makes sense to them if it doesn't also make sense to you. In this country we all supposedly have the right to vote for leaders that reflect our values but you and others say that certain values should be discarded because of their possible origin. That is un-American.

July 22, 2010 at 1:03 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

HenryVIII (anonymous) says...

seriouslyfolks,
I do see you as human with the same rights as me. You contribute to society even by posting funny things here and giving me someone to rant to. If something should happen to you, my world would change in a small way.
I don't consider abortion to be murder. I know that some court cases have charged a murderer with killing 2 "people" when the woman was pregnant, but in those cases it DOES impact society because the woman's family was expecting to bring the fetus to term. Therefore, I feel being charge for 2 murders is acceptable punishment for the extra suffering the murderer caused society. (the family) If the woman was planning on having an abortion before she was murdered, a defense lawyer could argue that the fetus was unwanted and therefore it shouldn't be considered as an extra murder charge. It's totally different anyway, because when a pregnant woman is murdered, it isn't her choice. Since it's her body, it should be her choice. If someone takes that choice from her, they should be punished for it.

Thank you for responding. Unfortunately, it seems we are at an impasse. Does anyone else have some input that might provide a different perspective on the issue?
'enry

July 22, 2010 at 1:50 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )