The Emporia Gazette

oh4theluvof (anonymous) says...

copied and pasted comments from original forum from 5:00 pm, July 6, 2009

Posted by YY4U (anonymous) on July 6, 2009 at 5:07 p.m. (Suggest removal)

If I had the option to pay my current private health insurance premium straight into my medicare plan and be able to use the medicare now, I would do that. My employers co payment should go there too. If everyone who is sick of the private health insurance program they have now had the option to go into medicare, they would. People who have a job but no health insurance should be able to buy into it too. The law of large numbers will ensure the viability of medicare well into the next century while improving upon an already excellent government program. As more and more American Citizens discover the benefits that millions of Illegal Aliens enjoy today, (Freedom from medical debt), I'm sure the overwhelming majority of Americans will quit the for profit industry and opt into medicare for their health care needs.

July 6, 2009 at 7:29 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

oh4theluvof (anonymous) says...

Posted by methusla (anonymous) on July 6, 2009 at 5:19 p.m. (Suggest removal)

open_eyes

I read thru it two or three times and did not see where it says anything about the same healthcare plan the legislators have !
However that is what really makes this a great country, two people can see or read the same thing and see it differently and have a discussion about how they interperet what they see . I am sorry I really don't see the part about the Repubs. health care plan being the same as what the legislators have.
I will try reading it again, because these old eyes or mind is not quite as good as it used to be, I may have missed something .

July 6, 2009 at 7:29 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

oh4theluvof (anonymous) says...

Posted by biscuitboy (anonymous) on July 6, 2009 at 5:20 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Hear.....Hear....!!!!

Posted by seriouslyfolks (anonymous) on July 6, 2009 at 5:28 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Does it really matter what the republicans say anyway? Why even discuss it. Obama won, his team won and this is going to happen PERIOD. Some people get the government to do what they want others see this as a big can of worms. Just like the proban people got what they wanted with the smoking ban. They could see no wrong with it and continue to deny anything is wrong with it now. I'm just going to sit back and watch all this unfold and pinch my nose when it starts to stink. I will continue to diet and exercise and take care of myself because 1. I don't think the government is very good at stuff 2. I believe it is my responsibility to do so, not everybody else.

Posted by seriouslyfolks (anonymous) on July 6, 2009 at 6:12 p.m. (Suggest removal)

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd...

July 6, 2009 at 7:30 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

oh4theluvof (anonymous) says...

Posted by open_eyes (anonymous) on July 6, 2009 at 6:26 p.m. (Suggest removal)

"All insurance offered on the Exchange would have to provide coverage meeting the same standards as the insurance offered to federal employees and members of Congress under the Federal Employee Health Benefits System."

Well, it didn't say the same insurance, just insurance coverage meeting the same standards. I even made a joke about it afterwards. Forgive me for my joke implying that it was the same insurance.

Everyone is free to interpret to their own understanding what would be different and what would not. I read several paragraphs on tax incentives (referred to as being "key") - but alot of paragraphs outlining quite a few other things. One BIG thing I noticed was the price tag (or lack thereof). I'm not in the "deficit under Bush = bad, deficit under Obama = good" crowd. And since we've already spent ourselves silly (and are now already talking about an additional stimulus bill, since this one didn't work - now that Biden has says we inherited a worse economy than they thought, and I'm remembering all the talk that it was the worst situation since the Great Depression, which is in itself yet another lie, the economy of late Carter/early Reagan was worse)......... I'm just wondering where all the $$ is going to come from eventually.......... oh, never mind.... I think I already know.......

Anyway, I'm not saying this is the correct path to take, or one that would work better. I'm just saying maybe, as people often are forced to do when they find their bank account empty, we had better do a little more research and try to find ways to not spend as much $$ as we would like at the moment. Oops, forgot again. Supermajority and party of no. Sorry, I keep forgetting how politics works......

I'm with seriouslyfolks. Don't tell me later on the pile of manure is starting to smell. I told you that's what happens when you put it out in the sun......... but I'm still willing to cross my fingers and hope this time will be different....... :)

July 6, 2009 at 7:30 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

methusla (anonymous) says...

Well, noone has asked it yet, so I guess I will !
Exactly who pays for " insurance offered to federal employees and members of Congress under the Federal Employee Health Benefits System." The Federal Employees and members of Congress out of their own pockets or do the taxpayers pick up the cost of premiums tab ?
I would almost bet that it is taxpayer funded !

July 6, 2009 at 8:19 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

oh4theluvof (anonymous) says...

So, here's the message I am getting so far:

"oh4theluvof....I admire your grit and tenacity.....I really do!" (read: What you have done is verbally commendable, BUT..........)
".....But we all bought into a live better through credit and debt pipe dream..."(read: ...But, everyone didn't do that, AND....)
"....just expecting many of them to just buck-up work their way out of it is ay best a little late.....if not unrealistic." (read:... And we aren't expecting them to ever do it, SO.......)
"......(don't like) inability to provide your children with a private education because you first have to pay for a public one. So what. Everybody does. ........If that minimum level is not up to your standards then it is your job to figure it out from there." (read:...So even though you did it 'right' and figured out how to have what you need, we are going to take it away from you and pass it out to those who didn't. You will be expected to settle for less than you have now either in family time or in finances)

WOW!! Thank you so much, my fellow Americans. I appreciate the way you will stomp all over me before placing limitations on others. But wait...?..........

July 6, 2009 at 8:37 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

oh4theluvof (anonymous) says...

cont...

"...private enterprises, such as health insurance companys ( who are primarely owned and backed by physicians ) and healthcare providers ( medical clinics, hospitals etc., whose primary stock holders are also physicians and backed by private health insurance companys ), .....are unwilling stop or control their own runaway, greedy, profiteering and help lower healthcare costs......there is going to have to be some sort of control and regulation forced upon these private enterprise sharks,..."

Oh, so we will place limitations on others?
".....if it were not for the greed of the ceo's, boards of directors, stockholders and workers of the companys, corporations and greedy, corrupt government legislators and leaders of governments ?"

Oh, okay, it's only the prominently greedy we will lock down on and we will assign one of these greedy factions to regulate the other on our behalf. Ah! It's becoming as clear as mud!

And no one thinks that the big pharma will line the pockets of legislators then the same way they do with doctors, facilities and legislators now? Seems their bribery budget will actually shrink a little.

So....once again.....why do we not assign the government to more vigilantly protect the assistance programs from the everyday greedy guys and to assist the truly needy by giving them fishing poles and lessons instead of just fish? Why is it we are playing gambling games with the most reputably greedy entities we have?

July 6, 2009 at 8:37 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill....

July 6, 2009 at 8:48 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

methusla (anonymous) says...

oh4thelufof
I appogize if I hit a nerve, which it seems I have ! I also agree that public assistance programs ( a form of socialism ) needs to be strictly and aggressivly policed as well as regulating profit taking by private enterprises to a fair and equitable level to keep costs from continuing to spiral skyward.
The old broken private enterprise equation of " The desire or demand for more and more profits = higher and higher costs for the ordinary consumer. "
Needs to be changed, somehow, by some one .
If you have any viable, sensible suggestions. Please !

July 6, 2009 at 9:04 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...

Posted by oh4theluvof (anonymous) on July 6, 2009 at 9:53 p.m. (Suggest removal)

"seriously:
Remember our Anti-ban motto, "Let the free market system decide?"

Could this possible apply even with big corporate things like insurance companies or even with who you seek medical care from? Maybe I'm just being too optimistic, but whatever you do, don't be financially responsible. No one else is and you will be the one screwed over as they are catered to if you do. Happy Birthday America...there is a new dream now."

Yes we were fools for believing that load of poopoo. Weren't we? We foolishly thought that we were standing up for American principles but now that it's a different topic we find ourselves argueing with the same people we sided with before. The same thing happened with religious freedom debates. Like I said before people want government run THEIR way and it simply can not be that way. I had nothing NOTHING invested in the smoking ban except a belief in the free market, what a fool I was to think that others actual agreed with me. Now it is apparent that they were only agreeing with me/us because they just didn't want the ban. Some of them really talked a mean fight. What a fool I was.

July 6, 2009 at 10:07 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

oh4theluvof (anonymous) says...

methusla:
While my nerve has definitely been struck, it wasn't just you or even just here. But what you all seem to be missing is that my suggestion is to stop the financial bleeding (hearts) by saying 'no' to more welfare applicants. I know it can't be an easy job, but more thorough screening needs to be done so the real needs can be met.
You have seen the video on the two forms of government...biscuitboy likely hasn't. You saw that summary of how and why socialism is historically proven to turn to communism as it bleeds out. I will try to find that and post it again...it is about time to remind us all again.
Just as the free market system was the solution for the smoking issue, I believe it is here as well. Why, I know of two doctors here in town that broke away from the other groups because they did not believe that patients were getting treated fairly by the bureaucracy. They have some very loyal patients and staff and it's not because of their sparkling personalities (don't have those), it's because they have noble ethics. I know of other people in town who will drive to Burlington or other small towns or even to Topeka to see the doctors whose ethics they appreciate. Whether it's billing, ease of appointments or bedside manner, we determine if they get more income. While it can be very inconvenient in a town this size, we still have the say.
I also have some friends whose spouses work at a place that has employer sponsored insurance for the employee, but pays nothing for any family members if they are added to the plan. They have all managed to shop around and find insurance that is reasonable in cost and coverage for their families. I fail to see why the free market system isn't acknowledged here.

What I am seeing --can't possibly miss it--is that the irresponsible in our society are being catered to and the dishonest are being cow-towed to. Meanwhile, those few who are doing the right things are being trampled by the herd. It seems that we would be protected---even held up as the achievement goal---in any system that is going to work.

July 6, 2009 at 10:16 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

oh4theluvof (anonymous) says...

Thanks, seriously.
I suppose I should quit crying about it, but................those hooves in my back really hurt.

No kidding about the 180 from the smoking ban thing. Ouch! I was noticing earlier today how absolutely NO ONE who was pro-ban seems to oppose the impending social health care thing. Maybe I didn't give them enough credit----maybe they knew exactly what place the ban had in the socialist agenda.

signed, your fellow fool

July 6, 2009 at 10:22 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

methusla (anonymous) says...

I am at a loss, I know I profess control and regulation, but only as a last resort and only if no other solution is viable, acceptable and cost efficient. I really don' t want to see the government get involved either, but the free market way, in the world of the giant free market enterprises is not working and it would seem that the partisan politics game that is being played in government is not working either !
I am going to be like, I believe it was seriouslyfolks, set back watch and see what happens ! I have survived this long and the Lord willing I will survive a while longer.

July 6, 2009 at 10:52 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

oh4theluvof (anonymous) says...

methusla:
I have gotten that you are looking more toward the regulation element, and that might not be a bad thing as a last resort. I say that because if it is a first result, government provision becomes the next step. I am fairly sure, though, that regulation is only a minute piece of the legislation that will be passed. I think it would be okay to simply cap the amounts that can be charged for services or for premiums, as long as that cap allows for inflation and for some to undercut it to gain customers without taking actual losses. It is a fine line and a tricky set of rules to make. I do not believe that the insurance should be provided by the government, though, as I believe most of the trouble exists there. Not that my opinion matters much in Congress or the Oval Office, though.

July 6, 2009 at 11:04 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

open_eyes (anonymous) says...

I don't know. Will I have to wait for the government to decide when and where to fly me? Or if I'm even worthy of saving?

Well, based on my last question......... I'm really screwed now....... :)

July 6, 2009 at 11:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

Nice move oh4theluvof..... shifting the topic to another board thereby avoiding all the post that were not to your liking that were made over the weekend. For newcomers to this thread.....if you want all the discussion...not just one persons interpretation of it.....please refer back to the last 30 percent or so of the "another right gone" thread. Or maybe I'll just move more of that discussion over here so you get a full reading.

You are absolutely right....I haven't. I quit referencing most links of a political nature as soon as I recognized that all I was being refered to was some one sided propoganda anyway....So why bother.

This board move again is right out of the Karl Rove play book. And I refuse to play. This will be my last post on this board.

July 7, 2009 at 3:42 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

p.s. (as a post script to my last post)

oh4theluvof.......your pulling excerpts out of context.....moving them to another board whereby people could not easily be exposed to the full context......then redefining them so you could take potshots.....was a cheap shot and has caused me to redefine the way I view you.

You had as much opportunity to join in the discussion this weekend as anybody else did and chose not to. Then when you realized you had lost some ground you basically cheat.

July 7, 2009 at 3:51 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

2nd p.s.

oh4theluvof.....unlike methusla, I am not apologizing......this is exactly the way I feel.

You change the board for no given reason.....then you pull a few words out of detailed statements......rewrite those words to make them look foolish.....and top it all of with your biased opinions.....all the time knowing few if any readers are going to go to the trouble to go back and see what actually was said and the context it was said in.

You owe methusla and I both and apology.......I had come to expect far better of you......obviously I was wrong!

July 7, 2009 at 6:16 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

methusla (anonymous) says...

biscuitboy,
You are right about some of my comments being taken out of context. However I am aware that if something is stated that someone does not like or agree with, that is the standard rebuttle, because they do not know any other way to deal with the truth. I am not offended by the tactic in the least !
I also knew that the particular post that oh4theluvof took parts of out of context would hit a nerve with someone, the truth usually hurts and I am big enough to appologize for it, but that does not bother me in the least either, appologizing, that is. I think that most people who read these thread, boards are intelligent enough to recognize an obvious out of context post and an obvious bait, switch and twist tactic.
So please continue to post your opinions, etc.. You have a unique insite and I for one enjoy your insight and candor !

July 7, 2009 at 8:13 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

open_eyes (anonymous) says...

biscuitboy........ I don't know what the "ploy" was, if any, but I'm not arguing with you. Just pointing out that you forgot to mention....... if that's what it is..... it's also right out of the Rahm Emanuel play book. And the Pelosi playbook. And many, many others too numerous to mention on BOTH sides of the aisle.

After all, the CIA lies to us all the time, but I don't have to explain myself. I can squash any investigation into that I want with my new "most ethical and transparent Congress ever"....... LOLOLOL.....

I'm with methusla. Don't let someone take your posts out of context (if that is what is done) and quit. I also appreciate your insights and ideas - even though I may disagree, again, I'm more of a conservative, and as the studies show, much more likely to listen to both sides of an argument than a liberal. You've given good points to ponder and brought up things I haven't considered. Which I want. So don't quit, please. That's the exact same thing I've been railing about our Congress and media failing to do.

July 7, 2009 at 9:53 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

methusla (anonymous) says...

open_eyes

Your are right ! I don' t really think it matters whether you consider yourself a consertative, liber or whatever, when you get fed up with the way things have been done, are done and may be done, you just get frustrated and need to vent !
I know I don' t consider myself a democrat or republican.
I don' t really know whether I am a conservative, liberal or whatever, maybe I am just " Crochety " !
Perhaps I can start a new political party, " THE CROCHETY PARTY " !

July 7, 2009 at 10:37 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

oh4theluvof (anonymous) says...

WHOA! WHOA! WHOA!!!!

This is ridiculous!!! I don't even know who Karl Rove is or what his play book is, but you have this all wrong. I moved three hours worth over so as to overlap and get this on a shorter thread that loaded faster so my scroll bar would quit bouncing as I scrolled down and it was still loading. I did it to make it easier to read. I named it identically, adding "Part 2" so people would know it didn't start there. I was hiding nothing, only overlooked the linking like Gwen does. After two other posters continued on the first one I realized that I hadn't linked the two. I was able to provide the link to this one at the end of the last one, but it was too late to get the link to the first one at the beginning of this one. I apologize for that oversight. But if it was that offensive to you, you could have linked it. I will do it now as I am the one that messed that up, not being a professional at this. It is:
http://www.emporiagazette.com/forums/...

As for my rebuttals being some sort of rewrite to state my own opinion, that is also false. I pulled those key quotes so you would know what exactly you said that gave me the impressions I stated in parenthesis following them. It had been a long conversation and I wanted you to know how it had all gelled in my mind over the past several days. I had the whole thing typed before I decided that I was tired of dealing with a 487 post thread on my screen. If I have taken them out of context, please tell me that you didn't mean them that way and restate them for me to reconsider. I know from the testiness in your posts that you got offended at me for being offended at you and telling you, but going off on wild accusation tangents only make you look infantile.

July 7, 2009 at 10:39 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

open_eyes (anonymous) says...

methusla - I love it!!!! Can I sign up to be your "Karl Rove" for your new Crotchety Party???? (I'd prefer not to be your Rahm Emanuel, I don't send dead fish to people I don't like. Fish are too good to eat to waste like that)...... LOL

July 7, 2009 at 10:45 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

open_eyes (anonymous) says...

I see your point, YY4U, I'm just not willing to concede that I can trust that government will be any better. As in most things, we need a bit of each. Health care in the last few years has just been getting completely out of control - its time they got knocked down a peg or 2. The question is: Can we do it without overdoing it?

July 7, 2009 at 12:02 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

open_eyes (anonymous) says...

Uhm..... just a couple of questions: Who does the work on the Highway system? Are you saying all the construction outfits are government owned and controlled? Who builds all the hardware for the military? Will we see Boeing & Lockheed taken over by the government next?
Just trying to say.... that its not entirely government... besides.... aren't Turnpikes private? I've seen it in alot better shape than gov roads alot of the time.... not that I want to pay every time I drive somewhere (oops, I already do, forgot about taxes....)

July 7, 2009 at 12:14 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

If I was to ever learn one thing from other posters on these boards it should have been to never say this is my last post.....because it almost never is. :-)
I did perhaps get a little excited when I saw the change because a lot of thought had gone into the discussion over the past few days. A lot of thought on many people's part. Then to see all of that loped off...only to be quickly followed by a few word synopsis....then a self-serving translation did upset me. And weather intended or not...it did serve to reduce much of what I.....and methusla .....had said to little more than a parody of our words.

I don't at all mind the give and take....but this seemed like more take and less give to me. But like all of us here, I am too opinionated to stay quiet for long.
So I will go so far as to apologize for my outburst though not for my view.

And methusla...I think the Crotchety party might just be the ideal place for me. Now I have to return to work.....till later>

July 7, 2009 at 12:35 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...

"Health care in the last few years has just been getting completely out of control - its time they got knocked down a peg or 2. The question is: Can we do it without overdoing it?"
open_eyes hit the nail on the head with this question.

I don't believe they can. Maybe for a while, but it will grow out of control.

July 7, 2009 at 1:08 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

open_eyes (anonymous) says...

And that's what I fear most. Like much of what we are pushing thru now (without reading it)..... it will be nearly impossible to undo, regardless of how badly it turns out. If we're going to take a $trillion+ risk.... can't we do it when we aren't already in way over our head?

July 7, 2009 at 1:18 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

methusla (anonymous) says...

open_eyes

You can be anything you feel you want or need to be in the " CROTCHETY PARTY " !

July 7, 2009 at 1:36 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

methusla (anonymous) says...

oh4theluvof

I know my posts and statements are long and lengthy, but thats just me and my way. I am somewhat of a " wind bag " when I get started on a subject I feel strongly about. I have a penchant to post lengthy explainations of what my pecerceptions are, but thats just the way I am. I was not quite as offended as biscuitboy . You also have a unique grasp of issues and I also value your insight and input.
My posts are lengthy at times, but please bear with me. My teachers way back when I was in school used to get a little testy with me, because my book reports were always longer and more detailed than any of the others. I have been told that I am too much of a " Perfectionist " . But I think I am just " Crotchety " .

July 7, 2009 at 1:51 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

methusla (anonymous) says...

I don't really know whether bills in congress are not really read and thought out so much as the two parties are just engaged so much in partisanism and adding so much pet, pork barrell projects to a bill that this is what is driving the national debt to outlandish and uncontrollable proportions !
It seems that our legislators cannot get a bill, a good sensible bill through the legislature, without adding a lot of unnecessary amendments, subamendemts, pork, etc. to a bill and this practice has gone on, uncontrolled, for way to long. And this is why I believe there should be term limits placed on members of Congress ! And I believe that the " Filibuster " rule should be abolished, altogether, along with lobbying and lobbyists !
Sorry, I almost got off, on another long, crotchety, ranting post.

July 7, 2009 at 2:05 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

open_eyes (anonymous) says...

methusla..... until crack tells us what we can and can't be. Of course, crack has the option to just not join the party or stay outside while we're carousing..... err.... I meant.... uhm.... "formulating party policy"....... but that won't be good enough for long I'm sure.......sooner or later our actions will harm someone..... probably when they happen to get between me and the dartboard...... :)

Don't forget, YY4U - Bush only released half the TARP, (under a Democratic-controlled Congress). Obama asked for and got the other half. Guess that was the Dem congress & Obama's "conservative doctrine" showing thru...... LOL

As for me on these boards.... I view myself more as just a windy blowhard. Anyone that pays attention to anything I say probably needs meds. Government-funded meds. (Probably because the drug war in Mexico is making what is really needed to put up with my views too hard to get :) There. I said it. We need governement intervention to counter drug lords greed :)

July 7, 2009 at 2:07 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

oh4theluvof (anonymous) says...

methusla and biscuitboy:
To be very clear, I am not offended by any of your views on the health care situation. Your statements have only verified to me the understanding I have gotten from the big pushers. I still do not understand what other context I should be reading them in. I understand that you are both concerned about the levels of greed and the overlooking of true needs that is currently going on. I get that too and I agree. However, where we differ is where the two of you along with most of the rest of the country are willing to throw people like me under the bus as collateral damage in reform efforts rather than going after the culprits. Let's face it, as people with scruples, we are easier targets. After all, we aren't the ones maneuvering evasively at every opportunity and slipping through loopholes incessantly. I haven't found anything in your statements to counter that message that I am getting from everyone else. If I am missing something, please place more emphasis on it so I can see it.

As for the accusations made earlier, I was initially offended and then later greatly amused at the thought that I could be that person. After all, if I was, wouldn't I be one of the opportunists who, not caring about the truly needy, looks to take advantage of every assistance program even though I don't need it.
Methusla, I am very accustomed to your posts by now and I believe I follow them fairly well. Like you, I believe I get very wordy. At any rate, I appreciate them and thought we had a pretty good understanding of each other which made your statement about my action being diversionary because I didn't have an argument sting quite a bit. In my mind, I was presenting arguments that had yet to be truly addressed, therefore, not desperate at some dead end. I know I couldn't possibly have been reacting in a cornered desperation to your point because I am still a bit confused as to what truth you pointed out that was hard to take. Can you clarify that for me?
Biscuitboy, you are sometimes a bit harder for me to take than methusla is, but truth be told, it's probably because I am stubborn like you. The exception in our likeness would be where you can be very quick to assume the worst about people; a trait to which I am very sensitive because I am frequently burned very badly by it in my everyday life. I am sure that combining that sensitivity with my stubborness makes me more unapologetically aggressive toward you in our debates. For that, I apologize.
For my views, like you, I do not apologize, but if someone can help me see what I'm missing that changes the context from how I've been reading, please do.

July 7, 2009 at 10:39 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

methusla (anonymous) says...

oh4theluvof
My feeling was, when you posted only exerpts from my post and added your interpretation in parenthesis, it seemed you were intending to imply that I was saying that all private enterprise, businesses, companys, etc. were profiteering, greedy, etc. and that was not my intended implication at all.
However I still believe that their are those private enterprises, businesses and companys that need to be reigned in as far as excesive profit taking and costs are concerned and I still believe the government is the only " BIG BOY " with the power to do the job.
I guess sometimes my posts get so long and involved that my points become confusing. I will try to shorten my posts and get to the my points in a more clear and precise manner.
Gosh, I just realized I almost did it again, sorry !

July 8, 2009 at 8:29 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

oh4theluvof (anonymous) says...

No, I didn't take it that all big business is evil in your eyes. I did take it that big business greed is the kind that you want the government to reign in. My question is, why don't we reign in the greed that is killing the system that the government already has in place? I do want government control and regulation over what is already there, but is seems to be lacking. I am wondering why we would ask them to manage more and for more people when they don't manage very well the portion they already have?

July 8, 2009 at 8:51 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

open_eyes (anonymous) says...

YY4U, LOL - that's a good point - like you can't give candy to a baby and not expect them to eat it - thx for the chuckle.

You're absolutely right - Bush could have vetoed it - and didn't. I'm not saying he is blameless. And I've never said either half was more or less than the other. Just trying to set all the records straight. It's not small change we're talking about, after all. Since people are fond of throwing numbers around and making claims I'm just trying to keep it a little accurate.

The first TARP passed the Democratic-controlled Senate 74-25 (Kennedy not voting) - 9 Democrats voted against it, 15 GOP & 1 Indy.

As for the 2nd TARP, on Jan 15.....

"Six Republicans joined with 45 Democrats and one Joe Lieberman to defeat a resolution that would have blocked the release of $350 billion in financial-industry bailout funds Thursday. The Senate action -- or lack of it -- paves the way for the dispersal of the money regardless of any action taken by the House of Representatives.

The Troubled Asset Relief Program (TARP) is structured so that the president has access to the money unless Congress actively prevents its release. Only 42 senators -- seven Democrats, 34 Republicans and one Bernie Sanders -- voted to block the money."

Totally agree on the urine sample statement :)

July 8, 2009 at 9:28 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

methusla (anonymous) says...

oh4theluvof
I totally am in total agreement with you, that is why I included the legislators in my comment about greed, profiteering, etc.
This is also why I believe that there should be term limits of possibly 2 years and only one term and no being relected to multiple terms for congressmen and abolish " filibusters " and lobbying and lobbyists. In other words do like people do with their gardens, get rid of the usless weeds and dead wood, that do nothing but suck the life out of everything else.

July 8, 2009 at 10:31 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...

Why would they put term limits on congresspersons when the are going to get rid of term limits for the president?

"Proposing an amendment to the Constitution of the United States to repeal the twenty-second article of amendment, thereby removing the limitation on the number of terms an individual may serve as President."
"This resolution is in the first step in the legislative process. Introduced bills and resolutions first go to committees that deliberate, investigate, and revise them before they go to general debate. The majority of bills and resolutions never make it out of committee. If this joint resolution proposes an amendment to the Constitution, three-fourths of the states must ratify the proposal. A joint resolution, if not amending the constitution, may also be signed into law by the president. [Last Updated: Apr 18, 2009 3:19PM]"

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill....

July 8, 2009 at 10:50 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

methusla (anonymous) says...

seriously,
So, that is why nothing is accomplished in D.C., its the same old blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, take a break and then more blah, blah, blah, blah and then shuffle everything from committee to committee for more blah, blah, blah, blah, and then kill it and go on vacation !
In other words I might as well practice my cow pie tossing for the pie toss at the county fair ! I might be able to do pretty good at the cow pie toss it I had a legislator to throw at !

July 8, 2009 at 2:55 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

open_eyes (anonymous) says...

I don't think it would get passed, either. I remember talk about amending the Constitution so Arnold could possibly run. (And look at him now).

July 8, 2009 at 4:09 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

open_eyes (anonymous) says...

But then again.... when I think about it..... Obama was quick to support someone who was trying to (illegally and unconstitutionally) make the same change in Honduras............. (much quicker to support him than the people dying in Iran in support of democracy).....

July 8, 2009 at 4:17 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

oh4theluvof (anonymous) says...

methusla:
I noticed and appreciated, even tried to acknowledge your inclusion of greed in government leaders. But I see this social plan as a two-fold mistake. First, why are so many everyday citizens allowed to take advantage of programs they don't need, so that there is nothing left for those that do? I am talking about the people going through the same grocery lines as we are, yakking on their iphones about their latest ipod downloads and the set of rims they just got for their brand new tricked out SUV, while swiping a government food card through the box. It is much more common than some would like to believe. Even if it isn't that extreme, there is still a lot of abuse of the system. YY4U touched on it with his urine sample comment. If that is an effective deterrent for the moochers and sponges, then I'm all for it. I can say, if I was truly in need, I might see it as further humiliation, but hopefully I would only see it as a safeguard for my own good.
My suggestion is that welfare recipients should have to be as transparent, if not more, about their finances as borrowers have to be with the banks. Maybe a credit check to see how many rent-to-own accounts they have for all those big screen tv's, flat screen computers, and rooms full of furniture, how many cell phone accounts they have, how many car payments they have and even checking with the cable services to see if they subscribe. I would like to see something more along the lines of financial counseling being mandatory. Something that teaches the recipients what is and is not necessity and how to close out cell phone and credit card accounts. Something that holds them accountable for managing every dime responsibly, especially if it comes from their fellow citizens. Something that verifies all reported employment searches are legitimate and if not, are accompanied. Also, time limits as recommended by the counsellor based on the recipient's financial outlook or their lack of involvement.
I guess I believe that the biggest solution to the problem lies in that part as I think there is already enough money being taxed from us and filtered through an inefficient and self-serving government to meet the actual needs, but it is being absorbed by the opportunists before the ones who need it get to it. Therefore, I get a bit upset when people start clamoring for more, knowing that I am directly in the path of that social bulldozer.
Secondly, we have tea parties in the news right now as more and more citizens are trying to assert our position with the politicians---they work for us, not us for them. While I think this is important to accomplish, I don't believe it weighs as heavily into the solution for the healthcare problem. That is, not until we try to enlist these unreformed politicians into the issue. I just think it is foolish on our parts to demand that these same people take on even more responsibility for our financial lives.

July 8, 2009 at 4:21 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

methusla (anonymous) says...

FYI, visit the following website, http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31782553/... and see what you think of the Dems. plan to fix the health care crisis ! As I understand it the bill already passed the Senate !
After reading what the plan entails, I can see why most everyone is a little fearful and skeptical. After reading the plan I am not so sure of a government funded health care insurance.
However I need to see more ideas and input from others with ideas that may be cost effective and viable .

July 8, 2009 at 4:29 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

methusla (anonymous) says...

P.S. I did not see any safe guards against any abuse of the system what so ever and that is what worrys me, lack of abuse safeguards.

July 8, 2009 at 4:32 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

open_eyes (anonymous) says...

YY4U - I'm sure there are some that are as you describe. That's why we'll (hopefully) check into it first and verify. But I am sure there are also many who are not.

Another point about abuse of the system is an example of what happened in Hawaii.

July 8, 2009 at 5:09 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

open_eyes (anonymous) says...

Ya gotta love the wording.... but there's a loophole....

"bill would require all LEGAL residents of the United States to have insurance"

So renounce your American citizenship. Then you don't have to pay, but you will get free healthcare. At least your children will.... by law.....

Thank you, government. Just exactly what I elected you to do.

July 8, 2009 at 5:15 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

oh4theluvof (anonymous) says...

YY4U:
Having worked at a grocery store, I can tell you that the patterns repeat far too often. I can also tell you that those same people go over to the cashiers' cage and try to figure a way to get that last ten dollars off that card for "gas." Then they tell you some sob story about how they don't get any more money until their next card....meaning there is no job. Yes, one in ten may be that caretaker, but people tend to get chatty in checkout lines and if you're listening, you can easily pick those ones out. I have also worked at the mall where every second month a regular string of people come through and ask if you're hiring and then ask you to sign a piece of paper saying they asked--that way they can get their government handout. If your store actually is taking applications, they take one to show the SRS office and never bring it back.There are thousands of wasted dollars in this town alone, much less all the cities and town across the country. People have figured out how to get divorces so they can collect welfare checks---although they and their spouse are still together---or not get married at all for that reason. This is why I ask that we get a better handle on the everyday extortionists before we try to tame the big time ones that we put into office and to NOT gang them up together with the ones in private business.

And I wouldn't oppose that urine test either--any measure that helps, I'm all for.

July 8, 2009 at 7:51 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

open_eyes (anonymous) says...

You know, the really sad thing about all this is, I would bet, if you took a few of us posters here on this thread, from BOTH points of view.... heck, actually, pretty much anyone who posts here (except Gary Lukert) - gave us 2 months off, unlimited resources for research and everything else, and we put our heads together, we could come up with a solution that about 80% of Americans would wholeheartedly endorse.

And about 90% of our elected officials would be emphatically opposed to. Because the big money behind them would tell them to be.

And that, in a nutshell, is the America we live in today.

Of course I have a day job and no access to unlimited anything (except maybe misery), nor do I claim to be a firecracker expert let alone a rocket scientist, but I guess I'm trying to make a point that plain common sense down here at the everyday American level just seems to be a totally foreign idea to Washington anymore. SO out of touch. I'm not even saying I have great ideas at this moment, or that it would be easy. But I'd know where to at least start. By adding 1 + 1 and getting 2, following A by B and then C, you know, the kind of thinking that seems completely absent in Washington these days.

July 8, 2009 at 8:23 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...

"And I wouldn't oppose that urine test either--any measure that helps, I'm all for."

Yeah but who's going to measure it? What would they use? Like, a measuring cup or somethin'?

July 8, 2009 at 8:55 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

oh4theluvof (anonymous) says...

open_eyes
As always, you've nailed it. I usually don't respond to you because I can't add anything to what you've already said, but every once in awhile I just want you to know that I'm always right there with you.

seriously:
You are so helpful sometimes. When you tire of a conversation, we all know it ;)

July 8, 2009 at 9:21 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

methusla (anonymous) says...

open_eyes

Your right about the nutshell we live in today and the squirrels in Washington D. C. are the creaters of the nut shell.

July 8, 2009 at 10:04 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...

Yeah, that's probably why I don't have my own band yet, too many cool names to choose from. Udder Disdain, oh or even better Udder D'Stain.

Seriously R. Folks

July 8, 2009 at 11:16 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

open_eyes (anonymous) says...

I find this all Udderly Confusing.

July 9, 2009 at 10:46 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

open_eyes (anonymous) says...

And oh4theluvof, and along with methusla, seriouslyfolks, YY4U, create, and others - thanks. I learn alot from everyone, and I enjoy the humor breaks when seriously "tires of the conversation" - LOL. Think we could talk Obama into giving us jobs like I described above? Maybe, say..... 4.2 million "stimulus" money, to create say, 8-10 jobs? LOL

July 9, 2009 at 11:32 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...

It's not so much that I tire of the conversations so much as I get easily ..................................Oh look! A cow!

July 9, 2009 at 12:33 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

oh4theluvof (anonymous) says...

ROFL,
It's always worth a try!! Methusla should hold of on his letters until you have a response for yours, that way he can bill the government some extra for their job he's already taking on, hahahaha (By the way methusla, I admire your tenacity on that endeavor)

I do appreciate all the debate here or else I wouldn't be here. I learn lots of new stuff even though alot of it I don't agree with. At any rate, I get a more rounded out picture of other people's perspective which can also help my arguments hopefully be more precise ;) I also appreciate when a person doesn't waffle on their position, only changing it if they have truly been convinced. That's hard to get in face to face conversations outside of my family.

My favorite part of all this is the humor that comes out---my favs are you, open_eyes, seriouslyfolks and YY4U in that category, but there are a lot of good senses of humor on these boards. Thank you all for the laughs.

July 9, 2009 at 12:43 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

methusla (anonymous) says...

seriouslyfolks

Yes, at times it gets confusing trying to follow and keep up with what posts are and comments jumping about, but boy, isn't it fun.
Oh look! A squirrel with a nutshell, wonder which legislator that could be ?

July 9, 2009 at 12:47 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

methusla (anonymous) says...

Boy, I hope that squirrel isn't coming here to change the nutshell we are already living in, for a worse one !

July 9, 2009 at 12:51 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

open_eyes (anonymous) says...

hehehehehe - oops, I meant moo moo moo moo....

What sounds do squirrels make anyway? :)

Chip & Dale talk like humans..... but they're not technically squirrels anyway.....

July 9, 2009 at 2:07 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

sandman (anonymous) says...

Gee, have learned so much in reading past post, very interesting. I for one don't feel we need to go to socialistic medicine, big MISTAKE!!! We truly have one of the greatest forms of medicine available, also, please remember that our people in congress have their OWN form of medical coverage, PAID!!! They wouldn't need coverage.

Please look at N. Richardson, who died after a fall in Canada sking this past winter. It took 8 hours for them to get her to a medical facility. Thank heavens we have helicopters that could have had her there in 45 mins.

Also, Obama, from what I understand, is trying to sign seniors death warrants by this past "stimulus" bill which includes provisions for extensive rationing of health care for senior citizens. Tom Daschle supposely wrote the bill and is credited by Bloomberg as saying" health-care reform will not be pain free. Seniors should be more accepting of the conditions that come with age instead of treating them."

I have been overseas and seen their medical care first hand and will not say I was impressed. In England, anyone over 59 cannot receive heart repairs or stents or bypass because it is not covered and is considered to be too expensive and not needed. My foreign exchange husband took sick while I was in Sweden and it took two months for him to get a doctors appt. Do you want this? Plus they are "assigned" to what doctor they will see. Ours may not be the best but it sure beats what Canada and Europe have.

July 9, 2009 at 6:26 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

sandman (anonymous) says...

opps, left out "foreign exchange "daughters" husband", not MINE!!!!!

July 9, 2009 at 6:33 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

oh4theluvof (anonymous) says...

Freedom of choice!!

July 9, 2009 at 7:44 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...

Soylent Green is people!!!!!!

July 9, 2009 at 7:53 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...

it's people .....................

July 9, 2009 at 8:01 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

oh4theluvof (anonymous) says...

You have a point about taking what you get.....this is why I think everyone should pay for their own. Teach my generation and the next how to save and invest for those days, also using private insurance. However, we also need to set a few limitations on the insurance companies to keep them insuring instead of turning into extortion companies. I am unsure whether we need the government to handle this or to get the citizens to exercise the free market principles to put them in their place, but either way it needs done. I lean more toward the free market, but sadly, just as we collectively don't know how to save our money, we also don't know how to use that free market tool.

July 9, 2009 at 8:13 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

oh4theluvof (anonymous) says...

YY4U:
I get that too....I am a third party conservative because of it. It really is up to "We the people" to revolt to whatever degree necessary to create the understandings between us and the powers that be...government, industries or both.

General statement:
We live in one of the most pathetic times in American history---an age of countless victims. No one seems to know how to make their voice heard anymore because of fear. We reject each other by "being offended" then we use that as an excuse not to say what we mean when we really just fear that rejection. Of course, we call it being "politically correct." We fear failure at every turn because failure not only feels bad but it also brings rejection. So we turn to our therapists to vent all our frustrations in a "safe" place or to drugs and alcohol. When our lives dissolve around us, we then turn to the government with our big, sad, victimized eyes and expect them to fix it.

Sorry about the tangent, but all these debates over socialism didn't exist back when people understood that life isn't always fair and that you need to work for what you have. None of this was directly aimed at anyone---especially not the posters here. I understand that we are all doing the same thing here. As my Grandma says, "We spent some time solving everyone's problems and in the end we didn't change a thing." Although I am hoping we light some fires under each other to pursue the solutions we can.

July 9, 2009 at 9:13 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...

"These people will ensure that whatever is passed is good for them even if it is bad for us."

Sadly that is human nature. Look out for #1.
What if we had an example of selflessness to follow. Can you imagine the richest king ever? Imagine he had a son that wanted to help his people. He would do anything for them. He would leave his father's side and humble himself among his people. He would bear their burden even to the point of death. If only we had an example like that to follow. People would probably complain about that too or deny it happened.

July 9, 2009 at 9:26 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...

Bin Laden sends his people to die for him. How does he sell them on that anyway? If it's such a good deal why hasn't he done it yet?

July 9, 2009 at 10:23 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

open_eyes (anonymous) says...

sandman, the jig is up. Everyone here knows that you were paid to write your post by the medical insurance companies and doctors. They even followed you around in Europe and carefully staged all the events you described. Nice try. :-)

But seriously now, YY4U, that is sad about your great aunt. But not an easy solution to it. People need to use a little common sense, but then again, who can really tell? For every person that is 75 and has had a surgery and lived another 15-20 productive years, there is someone in their 20's or 30's who was expected to make a full recovery and instead soon died. There's just no way to know. But I will agree, once someone gets to be a very advanced age one should take things into consideration. Doctors, patients, and family need to have frank discussions about the future possibilities. But..... could you make those choices (say no thanks) if it was your mother? Or your wife? Tough, tough decisions either way...... all I can say is, the very LAST people I would want making those decisions is.... the government......

July 10, 2009 at 12:04 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

oh4theluvof (anonymous) says...

"I don't think we have significant cost-containment mechanisms in the proposal yet," said Rep. Adam Schiff, D-Calif. He said he favors provisions aimed at preventing overtreatment of patients and overpayments to doctors, hospitals and other providers."
http://www.wilx.com/news/headlines/50...

I have enjoyed the many elements to this article as it indicates that there are a lot of conservatives on both sides looking at many of the angles to this. I still don't think any of them have a clue about those of us who will be forced to change for the worse what we have in place now, but they are trying. This quote from Adam Schiff indicates that he is safeguarding against doctor and facility abuse of the system like treating people who maybe should forego the treatment.

July 10, 2009 at 10:22 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...

I like what Adam Sandler says, "It takes more than two to tango, or somethin' like that."

July 10, 2009 at 10:48 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

open_eyes (anonymous) says...

So, now that Government-run GM has emerged from bankruptcy, I'm watching a news report right now that they are dropping their sole US metal supplier for certain parts, while retaining their South African & Russian suppliers. Thus putting alot of people out of work at the US supplier. All done with the US taxpayer money to make sure if anyone keeps jobs, it ain't Americans. And they were told the price was not the issue.

Yep, there's our wonderful government-run industries for ya.

I think I'm starting to see the fine print in the health plan now. They'll fire all US doctors and nurses, and replace them with overseas (cheaper) medical personnel to lower costs, but we'll be happy to lose the jobs because by then unemployment benefits will pay better than the actual jobs.

I forgot to add Cheney owns stock in an overseas medical personnel supplier, I'm sure.............

July 10, 2009 at 12:30 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

methusla (anonymous) says...

I don't know whether anyone else realizes it, but OSAMA BEN LADIN doesn't have to worry about destroying America, the people in our own government and the people behind the people in our government seem to be doing a pretty good job of doing that for OSAMA , IRAN, NORTH KOREA, CHINA, etc. All they need to do is set back and watch it happen !
What will happen when enough jobs are gone and moved to foreign countries ?
There won't be enough people working that can afford to sustain any of the companys, businesses, even if the jobs are in foreign countrys. All this countrys governments will crumble .
The federal, state and local governments will collapse because of lack of working taxpayers and the inevitablity of this will probably be complete anarchy !
I know that what I have said is not a pretty picture. But think of how many jobs have been lost in the last few month and how many jobs may be lost in the coming months and the picture is not a very rosey one .
There have also been several bank failures and closings in the past few months and banking anaylists are predicting, possibly as many as 300 more will close and fail in the nex two years. Not a very good outlook at all.

July 10, 2009 at 2:26 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

methusla (anonymous) says...

And then theres the so called " clamp down " on the credit card companys . Yea as if that is going to work. Here is a web site with an interest aspect on that legislation .
http://redtape.msnbc.com/2009/07/when...

July 10, 2009 at 2:28 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

sandman (anonymous) says...

open_eyes, sorry you are VERY wrong. There is no doubt that some things in our medical service needs to be changed, but going government is NOT the answer.

YY4U, glad you posted concerning your Great Aunt and her various surgeries, which at that age, was covered by Medicare, a government ran organization. Was not your Aunts fault but medicare must have OK"d and the surgeons are going to do what is allowed, Greed? It is not totally the "system" but how it is ran, going totally government again would be a BIG MISTAKE!!!! If we quit giving "free" insurance to so many, just maybe, we wouldn't have the high deficient that we now have and the rest of us wouldln't be paying such high premiums to be covered, plus greater restrictions on WHAT is covered and at WHAT age. 59 is very young today not to cover heart surgery, since we are living into our 90's and beyond.

July 10, 2009 at 3:15 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

sandman (anonymous) says...

open_eyes, I should have read further, you are very CORRECT! Age and COMMON SENSE "SHOULD" come into the equation of determining. This is also where a "living will" comes into being. Let the person being affected determine (when possible, mentally) what is to be and not place that burden on the family. My husband had such, and even though it was hard emotionally to try to follow, I did for it was his wishes and so did the doctors that attented him. I truly can't give them enough praise!!!!

If you haven't done a "living will" I strongly suggest, when you have the mental capability to do so. There are "computer" programs for such.

July 10, 2009 at 3:25 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

open_eyes (anonymous) says...

That's ok sandman, sorry that if I didn't make the playful sarcasm about you being paid off obvious enough, I was just making the point that we're told its all propaganda anyway. You weren't on Rush's show were you? LOL.
I probably was vague as to my point on the next paragraph also but I do agree with you & YY4U. I was just trying to frame the question from the middle so that the answers at the end would be more obvious....... if that makes sense....

July 10, 2009 at 3:52 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

sandman (anonymous) says...

open_eyes, am glad you accepted my apology, sorry, I did a "crack" action, jumping to a conclusion BEFORE I had read the entire post.

Say, I THOUGHT I saw you on Rush's show!!!! (Love ya!!) I so enjoy reading each and every commit, especially biscuitboy,you,Meth,gee, Oh! heck, they are ALL good!!!

I'd like to refer back to the "Baptist" commit, heck, this gal IS Baptist BUT anyone that truely knows me, knows I LOVE music, drink upon occasion, AND the REALLY evil one, SMOKE!!! No commit on the "other" vise that was mentioned,other then I believe that is a "twosy" decision. Believe Baptist has changed ALOT since I was growing-up and to me it is a matter of "CHOICE" and your OWN beliefs, no difference rather you are Baptist, Catholic, Presbyterian, Methodist etc, BUT you as an individual.

July 10, 2009 at 6:48 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

open_eyes (anonymous) says...

Speaking of Dr's being crooked.... just watched the clip about the young gal who poses as a 14 year old and then goes to Planned Parenthood clinics trying to get an abortion, telling them her boyfriend is 31 (ICK!!!!!). 7 out of 9 I think they told her no problem, they wouldn't report it as statutory rape, (against the law), wouldn't notify her parents (against the law) etc......... another reason I had a hard time believing Tiller's claims vs others......
Ok, now please lets not hijack this thread onto that subject. I just brought it up as an example of Drs, medical practitioners, dishonesty..........

YY4U, oh man... the jokes I could make about your last statement...... CAN'T go there lololololol

I'll do what I can to try to help give your personal convictions a little legitimacy. I, open_eyes, by the power vested in me by my own ego....... do hereby dub thee........ Sir YY............ (sounds of the crowd going wild).....

July 10, 2009 at 7:56 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...

What is this thread about anyway?

July 10, 2009 at 8:47 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

sandman (anonymous) says...

This girl can't spell, Woe! is me!!! "comment". Guess life isn't perfect and neither am I". Gee, did I missssspell anything???

seriouslyfolks, I'll try the psy thingy, "What do you want it to be about?"

July 10, 2009 at 10:24 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

sandman (anonymous) says...

seriouslyfolks, I owe you an apology concerning my above crack, I was just being a "bear". Seriously, this thread is about "rights gone or GOING! This could include many topics but currently the one at the forefront is medical insurance. Do we truly NEED to have our government CONTROLLING ANOTHER part of our lives? With control comes RESTRICTIONS! Isn't government in our lives way to much as it is?

I just returned from Colorado seeing a sister and while there on the front page of their newspaper was "New Ordinance past to catch rainwater"!! I'm not KIDDING!!! They had enacted and were retracting a law which restricted the "right" to catch rainwater to water your yard plants! I imagine MOST of the residents of Grand Junction weren't even AWARE there WAS such a law, my brother-in-law included!!!! Sound silly?

This is the day of "control" and we as taxpayers are picking up the tab. We need to keep our eyes and ears open to what our "elected" officials are doing!!!!!

July 11, 2009 at 11:47 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

sandman (anonymous) says...

open-eyes,
I would like to compliment you concerning your views on "Tiller" (abortion). I have been reading past post and will say you have restored my faith in men. Your views weren't what I thought they would be.

I wrote you a separate e-mail to be sent via the gazette but couldn't get it sent.

Thank you!

July 13, 2009 at 12:14 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

open_eyes (anonymous) says...

I've tried the same, there seems to be a problem with that.

Gwen??????

July 13, 2009 at 1:17 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

sandman (anonymous) says...

Methusla, your one post reminds me of when I was in high school in the '60's and the Soviet Uniion said "they would bury us and never fire a shot"-sound familiar? Our breakdown is from within, Why? Poor judgement on our part of the elected officials we elect? Or have we become so overcome with so many different views we don't know WHO we are? I still say I am an "American" and PROUD of THAT fact!

July 13, 2009 at 5:04 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

Sorry everybody.....I had to disappear into my alter-ego for a few days Too much to catch up on here so I won't even try.

Would however like to make a brief comment about an earlier post by oh4theluvof in which he said I was quick to assume the worst about people. He's absolutely right about that....life experience and all you know.
But I believe that knife cuts both ways and I at least try to be an equal opportunity assumer. You are quick to assume.....and I agree.....that many people on public assistence are greedy pigs fighting each other for all they can get. I however see the same greedy pig fighting at the top of the corporate ladder for all they can get of government hand out money. To me, a pig is a pig no matter what type clothes he wears. I feel the same way about insurance company executives and overpaid doctors living fat off of a system they are fighting to maintain, even though they know there are many people being left out in the cold. You seem to assume that those people are somehow undeserving of benefits.....at .least partly because to give them something might take a little from you. In my view that still spells greed. It seems to me greed is easier to see as long as long as it doesn't look like us.....but at least I try to look at it from all angles.

I completely understand you statement about stubborness. Your and my problem is that neither of us will give an inch....at least not to each other.

July 16, 2009 at 7:51 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

oh4theluvof (anonymous) says...

biscuitboy:
First off, let me say that I am very happy and slightly relieved to see you back. Secondly, LOL, I am glad we finally agree on something even if it is our faults. :)
Thirdly, I think if I can say this in fewer words, it might be easier to read. I want the current system to be examined and fixed before instituting a new one.
I want the current abusers of the system to be the first ones in the line to have something taken from them--not me. This seems just to me, and not selfish as they are stealing what they have. I want them out of the way so that the actually needy ones have access to what exists, and then I am willing to look and see if more is actually needed.
I feel that if we don't stop the abuses of the current system, but add to it, we not only reward their dishonest actions, we also place more out for them to snatch away from the ones who need it.
As for the corporate greed, I am with you that most of them are greedy and should be stopped, but I think the free market system is our first line of defense and government regulation is our second. The reason I believe that is because government regulation can end up hurting the honest ones while the dishonest continue to find and use loopholes. The free market system, however, is the empowerment of the people to stop only the ones who need stopped and at the same time, rewarding the ones who are doing right.
This still ended up longer than I'd hoped, but, regardless, I hope it clears up some of the misunderstanding here.

July 16, 2009 at 10:30 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Steve_Corbin (anonymous) says...

If I may:

I personally know both busicuit and oh4, at least a little bit.

I think the two of you have more in common than you think. I actually think in a political campaign, you both would probably back the same candidate.

It is good to hear the two of you debate each other, so much better than myself and anothers mindless drival on here at times. Keep up the conversation, we may all learn something.

July 16, 2009 at 10:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

romano1784 (anonymous) says...

I'm just curious but with the health topic... While discussing the insurance is all well and good, how did medical costs raise to the point they are now? An X-Ray with insurance is around three hundred dollars ( I think), during the Korean War it was five dollars. I understand the cost of living has increased drastically in the last few decades but that much? The cost of my son's birth after insurance was around three-thousand dollars? I wholeheartedly believe medical cost are no where near what we are told. Is there a site that I can go to, to prove my case? Or am I mistaken?

YY4U- do you baptize dogs? mines not religious either, but he has a smell. lol

July 17, 2009 at 12:45 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

oh4theluvof......

Believe it or not, I actually agree in principle with virtually all of your last post. The trick is in the execution. And it so often seems to me that when we set out to fix what we already have....a few cosmetic changes get made...then everything pretty muh settles back to business as usual. This occures becuse the powers that be or still the powers that be.....and as such will make a few adjustments and still continue to feed high on the trough.

So real change often can only occur by throwing out the entire system and starting over. I realize this concept is fraught with danger...and we may end up with something worse in the end. But with diligence we might end up with something better.

I however really believe that if all the worlds wealth was collected and redistributed equally to all the people on earth.....within a few years, the same people that hold the wealth now would hold it then. And the very same thing might well happen with a totally new health care system. Who knows?

July 17, 2009 at 6:33 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...

Corporate greed is a problem just look at the monopoly that ONE group has on the thin mint market! It's CRAZY! The best thing to do is if another company offered a similar product for less money or even NO MOnEy+?! Thated learned em' sumin=! What if Wendy's started offerin' thin mints for free by them valets they gots in thems AWESOME restrooms of theirs! They wouldn't even have to lose moneys on the dealio cuz they could charge a 1/3 penny extry per patty on their burgers. It's genius I tells ya! The only snagfoo would be if Wendy her self used to could be in the "group" that now has the market corned on thin mints and still holds somes sortsa loyalty to ""them"". It's a long shot but I think it's worth takin'. Fight the power man, fight the power!

Viva the los bano!
Seriously R. Folks

July 17, 2009 at 8:19 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6FcSV...

July 17, 2009 at 9:20 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...

Beer does not taste good.

Strawberry soda does taste good.

Chewy? I'm not sure about.

July 17, 2009 at 11:36 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLYxRW...

July 17, 2009 at 12:30 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

sandman (anonymous) says...

Concerning the smoking ban, if you haven't, please go to "KVOE.com" and look at the article that was written concerning the article this last week and picture taken at the bar of the "New Brec Cafe" in Americus. First, I seriously doubt that the author has EVER eaten there, then secondly, if he had, he would have realized that it is VERY seldom that a child would be at the bar. In this case, the child had been setting with his parents at a table but had stepped-up to the bar to ask for something. Was it "staged" by the Gazette? I seriously doubt, just happened.

I truly believe enough harm has been done in Emporia by this smoking ban at a time in history that the town NEEDS all the revenue it can receive. Tis sad that some want to "push" their desires stating it is for the "betterment" of the town when in reality, it seems it was self desire.

We around Americus are PROUD of our cafe and what they have been able to achieve. Also as a customer, you receive great food.

July 17, 2009 at 5:19 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

methusla (anonymous) says...

sandman
You are right about the smoking ban in Emporia being about selfish, selfcentered desire and thinking, done under the guise and smoke screen of being for the health of the employees and public. The smoking ban has hurt Emporia far worse than those who supported and pushed for the ban can and will ever imagine and the sad thing is all of Emporias citizens are going to suffer the consequences, even those who supported and voted for the ban .
And with the " A no. 1 Queen Bee of the smoking ban " being the newly elected county commissioner, I will not be at all suprised if there is not a push for a county wide smoking ban !

July 17, 2009 at 7:13 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

sandman (anonymous) says...

Meth,I sincerely hope you are wrong concerning the ban but
do agree that the "A no. 1 Queen Bee" of the smoking ban
is very sadly placed (elected) as a county commissioner. I sincerely hope that as far as county wide, that our residence are wise to realize what a "bill of sale" she gave the city of Emporia and that SHE (CAE) were the only ones to benefit, NOT the town!!!! Hopefully this county can SURVIVE HER this term then GET HER OUT!!!!

July 17, 2009 at 8:05 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

sandman (anonymous) says...

Meth, I also ment to write concerning our medical health problem(Fed), Senate Bill-2099 (Gun Confiscation) and then locally the Smoking Ban. Boy! what a mess!!!! I went to "Snopes" and it appears they are trying to "push" that bill thru. Amazes me how our elected officials, placed by us to represent US, tend to do what THEY want and are NOT the voice of the people.

July 17, 2009 at 8:13 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Steve_Corbin (anonymous) says...

To the Americus folks, And other small towns in Lyon county. Go to the sight Sandman mentioned and read Steve Sauders article. Then decide if you still want to do business with him. I mean we still have the right to do business with who we want, right? If I was Jeanna, (and I'm not), I would reconsider advertising on a radio station who's owner bad mouthed me in public, and that's what he did.
Besides , there is not that much difference between 96 cent burgers and $1.40 burgers:)

July 17, 2009 at 9:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Steve_Corbin (anonymous) says...

And after re-reading Mr. Sauders "something to think about" I think he may have missed the part in the newspaper where the small town bar owners/mangers specifically said their new customers said they were there because they couldn't smoke in Emporia, not because the bars advertise on KVOE. And did he ever consider that the child in the picture was the smokers kid? Would that mean that Steve thinks parents should be banned by law from smoking in their own homes if the kids around? Did he notice that the cigarett wasn't even lit? Now that is somthing to think about you'all

July 17, 2009 at 10:37 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

methusla (anonymous) says...

All I can say is, I have known of, Mr. ( Full of himself ) Steve Sauder almost forever. I tell you this, Steve Sauder has always been and always will be for Steve Sauder and noone else.
If he can make a buck off of you, while stabbing you in the back at the same time, that is typical Steve Sauder. Always has been and always will be.
It does not suprise me that he takes advertising money from Gena of The New Breck Cafe and then proceeds to stab Gena and The New Breck Cafe in the back with inuendos written by Mr. Steve Sauder, who by the way thinks that if it were not for him, Emporia wouldn't even exist.
In short, the man is not to be trusted at all.
Steve Sauder thinks he is a god. Well he is a god allright, he is like the the Roman God Janus, two faced !
I also will tell Mr. Steve Sauder this, the recessed economy started last year and the didn't occur until after the smoking ban was put into affect and then business at the bars and restaurants that allowed smoking dropped 30% to 40%. The bars and restaurants that allow smoking in other towns such as Americus and Hartford gained by almost the same exact amount.
Furthermore Hartford or Americus do not have the number of different businesses that Emporia has. And to Imply that Walmart, Waters Hardware, Bluestem, Modern Air, Spellman plumbing, KVOE lost business to Americus and Hartford is just plain stupid.
As for your following statement, " And third it may just be a coincidence, but the New Breck Café recently became an advertiser right here on KVOE and that can bring a crowd too! The New Breck even has a coupon on KVOE’s webpage. "
Your so egotistical, you just had to take credit for the increased business at The New Breck Cafe and plug your radio station at the same time.
And then you turn around and basically put a knife in the back of Gena and The New Breck Cafe with the following statement.
" Now my final point - the picture with the article shows a patron at the bar proudly holding up his cigarette for all to see.

They say a picture is worth a thousand words and in this case I certainly agree because sitting next to this proud smoker at the bar is a young boy – maybe 11 or 12 years of age.

Does anyone else see the irony in that situation? I thought you might.

I’m Steve Sauder and there’s something to think about.

If I were a businessman I would not advertise with you or your radio station(s) if you begged me, hell I don't even listen to your station(s).
There are more radio stations to advertise with and listen to in the Emporia area .

July 17, 2009 at 10:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Steve_Corbin (anonymous) says...

Meth,

I have to admit I still listen to KVOE in the morning.

Just because of the great ON-AIR folks in the morning.
But once the obits are over, (got to check to see if I died overnight), I usually go to another station.

During the run up to the election EOB felt it needed to spend advertising dollars on Mr. Sauders stations to reach a broad spectrum of voters.

When this issue comes to a vote again, (and I think it will), Mr. Sauders Wed. editorials will negate the need for our group to advertise on his stations.

July 18, 2009 at 7:56 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Steve_Corbin (anonymous) says...

Also an aside to all the Business owners out there in the county:

Enjoy the increase in business the ban in Emporia has brought you.
Don't waste your money on advertising, you are going to need that money to fight the upcoming county-wide ban.

July 18, 2009 at 8:03 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

I for one do not ever listen to KVOE, and will not as long as it is owned by the Sauder family. I also will never buy time on that station as long as it owned by the Sauder dynasty....nor will I knowingly do business with any business that is primarily controlled by said family. Now that my friends is free market capitalism at work in the hands of this old "socialist". lol

July 18, 2009 at 9:32 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

methusla (anonymous) says...

biscuitboy
I never thought of you as a socialist. I thought you were just old and " CROTCHITY " like me, care to join the CROTCHITY PARTY.

July 18, 2009 at 10:28 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

meth....I never thought of myself as a socialist either but I have frequently been accussed of such of late.

I however am quite intrigued with the idea of the CROTCHITY PARTY.....and am certain that I could lend my fair share of crotchityness to the effort.

July 18, 2009 at 12:21 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

oh4theluvof (anonymous) says...

Well, I finally made it back for a quick check and see that I will have to backtrack the conversation a bit in order to reply. My apologies---my life gets in the way of my hobbies.
romano:
I am convinced that the prices are what they are because they can be---that's all.

biscuitboy:
You said, "The trick is in the execution." I agree 100%! I don't know if you ever got a chance to read through this conversation to pick up what you missed, but if I could steer you toward the posts by YY4U on July 7 at 9:43 pm and myself on July 8 at 4:21 pm, you can see where we threw out some practical ideas for this that I think could be done.
You also said, "So real change often can only occur by throwing out the entire system and starting over." I am totally with you here as well and while you were on hiatus, there was a relevant conversation here:
http://www.emporiagazette.com/news/20...
For the record, you may *seem to me* more socialistically minded on this subject than me, but I do not assume that you are a socialist across the board.

methusla:
How does the Crotchity Party feel about batty old ladies? I am not one yet, but am in training ;)

rbow:
Thank you for the endorsements on both sides---blessed are the peacmakers..... ;)

July 18, 2009 at 5:08 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...

I have been accused many a time of being folksy and I just tells em', I tells em' "Don't you mean the folksiest?" And they says to me, they says "R that is what we should have said upon further reflection on our statement about you being folksy because you are indeed the folksiest thus we underestimated your folksiness and we do apologize for the insinuation that you were less folksy than is actually so." Does it bother Seriously much? Nah. I'm too folksy to let it get to me. I just have a thin mint or 9 and move on.

Seriously R. Folks
Folksy fresh.

July 18, 2009 at 6:24 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

methusla (anonymous) says...

oh4theluvof
" batty old ladies" are as welcome in the CROTCHITY PARTY
as batty old men.

July 18, 2009 at 6:37 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

methusla (anonymous) says...

oh4thelufof
Even ladies that are in training to be " batty " old ladies are welcome in the CROTCHITY PARTY .

July 18, 2009 at 7:35 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

methusla (anonymous) says...

Oh, and the motto of the CROTCHITY PARTY is, CROTCHITY IS AS CROTCHITY DOES .

July 18, 2009 at 7:36 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

sandman (anonymous) says...

meth, sure like your motto!!! Count me in!!! Glad it is "Crotchity" and NOT "pain in the neck!!"

July 18, 2009 at 7:55 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

sandman (anonymous) says...

Oh4thelufof, I have so enjoyed reading your post and the others on here. Will say it has been very interesting and have learned so much concerning the life we live in. Also, will say I have LOVED the various sense of humors that have been thrown out, especially "open_eyes", now that is QUICK wit! But I did want to tell him I've been invited to "Rush's" show but would so much rather go see "Ophra", I need him to help me decide,believe "Ophra" would be alot more FUN!!!

July 18, 2009 at 8:46 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...

sandman:
Thank you for the compliment. I agree that open_eyes has an unmatched quick wit on these forums. (Disclaimer for seriously: you have an unmatched goofiness and thirst for attention ;)
I am happy that people are learning something they feel is positive, but for the life of me, I don't know why. I am just an opinionated lover of debate who doesn't really feel like she has much to teach. I feel so out of touch with the world about so many topics that come up here, I am always just happy to have a couple here or there that I feel I can discuss without making a fool of myself...............although, not always successful at that.
You were making some very valid points about the original subject here and I apologize for derailing it once again. I looked briefly for the KVOE item you mentioned, but I did not find it in the news section, nor did I have time to search the other areas. It's just as well, as I believe I would have been very angry to read or hear that commentary. I do not understand why anyone in this area does business with a person who is so mean and yet so self-righteous as the "Something to Think About" commentator. For real!! What does he bring to us that we can't live without???
FREE MARKET principles, people!!!!

July 19, 2009 at 12:02 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

biscuitboy (anonymous) says...

To all involved......

This thread turned into a wonderful discussion after I checked out....and many great thoughts were presented on both sides of the equation. I had many questions and responses I wished I could have made.....but the time for that is passed.

I too appreciate the opportunity to exchange thoughts with people that have something to say......and that applies to all that contributed so much to this thread.

I am stubborn, opinionated and croutchity.....but my mom always told me I was a pretty good boy. :-) Any way....thanks to all for putting up with me.

By the way....I mean't the socialist remark as tongue in cheek, that's why I put it in quotes in the first reference. Probably should have used one of those little smiley guy things. :-)

July 19, 2009 at 4:55 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

sandman (anonymous) says...

seriouslyfolks, If you go to the sight I mentioned and then scan down to: Something to think about and click, you will see and be able to read. I also agree, that yes, some people "jump-in" before knowing the TRUE facts and also care only for self, but the problem is, we ALL live in this world together!

July 19, 2009 at 8:07 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

seriouslyfolks (anonymous) says...

The above post was not written by Seriously R. Folks, not nearly folksy enough. Obviously. Back to the topic at hand ................. what were we talking about again? Oh yeah, Folksiness. You gotta fight for your fight to be folksy.

Seriously R. Folks

July 19, 2009 at 8:40 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )